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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by PianoDan (talk | contribs) at 20:07, 23 May 2024 (→Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2024: decline xy). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Requested move 23 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a consensus here to continue using the common name instead of maintaining perfect consistency, and per WP:CRITERIA that sort of prioritization is a choice that editors are allowed to make. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:59, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Inter Milan → FC Internazionale Milano – FC Internazionale Milano is the official name. Inter Milan may be most common in English, but I don't think this is a valid reason for not moving. In fact, considering WP:TITLECON, almost all football clubs have the official name, for example Manchester United F.C. and Juventus FC. The most common names are "Manchester United" (or "Man United") and "Juventus" (or "Juve"); so I think we should move also this page to the club's official name 14 novembre (talk) 19:54, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose for all of the reasons previously provided, fully documented, none of which have changed. I suggest you examine those for the current agreed and settled title rather than creating yet another wasteful relitigating of this topic. Leaky caldron (talk) 20:03, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We need to overcome the partisan football fan perspective and think about this issue in the context of building a policy based encyclopaedia which is for the benefit of everyone - not just knowledgeable soccer fans. It is important to remember why we are here, not simply what we each want out of it. Consistency is not the only criteria. While the desire to line everything up neatly is commendable - and occasionally justifiable in itself (such as in entomology) - that is not the case where the naming of an article has to articulate more than that which is purely official. The format and language of the proposed title is an Italian construct which is anti-typical to the English language. The simple challenge is this - is there evidence that "F.C. Internazionale Milano" is more common in English sources than the existing title?
WP:AT lays out principles for naming criteria. The current title is clearly aligned on recognisability, naturalness and conciseness and this is the English Wikipedia - not the Italian. The "man in the street" argument is supported by WP:ENGLISH which states "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language". "Internazionale" and "Milano" are not English words and the use of "F.C." at the beginning is virtually unheard of in English football club names.
Policy and guidelines are the mainstay of WP and the common feature of each of these naming policies is the word "English". It is not relevant that a name is derivative or slang. It has to be English. It is what is used by WP:RS in the English speaking world that is the basis for naming policy on en-Wiki. Our personal likes, preferences and comparisons with other articles cannot override established and documented standards. These are the relevant polices and significant guides:
WP:ENGLISH "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources". "Internazionale" and "Milano" are Italian words.
WP:COMMONNAME ("The most common name for a subject as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources, is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural.")
All reliable evidence is that in the English speaking world Inter Milan outweighs other usage.
WP:NAME ("Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources.")
WP:UE ("The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage")
WP:MOS#FOREIGN ("Foreign words should be used sparingly")
WP:PLACE ("When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.") - Milan not MilanO
Leaky caldron (talk) 16:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extinguish bludgeoning from User:14 novembre. ——Serial 15:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • @Leaky caldron Not actually agreed. There are many strong arguments in favor of the move. The discussion must continue; of course, your arguments against the move will not be ignored. Kind regards 14 novembre (talk) 20:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    6 previous evidence based discussions in 11 years suggests otherwise. I strongly suggest that to make a convincing argument it will need to be demonstrated what has changed rather than just a series of personal preferences. Leaky caldron (talk) 20:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Leaky caldron Actually in the most recent discussion the majority of participants was in favour of the move. And even if you do not recognise it as a consensus, in 2 years the consensus might have changed, so a new discussion can be opened. When a decision has been taken, it is not forever, even if the subject does not change. Kind regards 14 novembre (talk) 20:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As far as I know, changes in article name are to be based on policy WP:TITLE not a vote amongst interested parties. Please read the policy and the previous decision rationales and you will understand why this particular article has not been changed despite 6 RNs requests in 11 years. Leaky caldron (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Leaky caldron Well if this is the situation, I agree there is no need for a discussion. We can move it immediately for WP:TITLECON. Kind regards 14 novembre (talk) 20:44, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That essay is a contributory provider of guidance, along with around 8 - 10 other policy, guidelines and essays on the subject of article naming. It would be a bit of an overreach - and wrong - to use a single essay to make an immediate move. It is not the correct approach. Like I say, it is overall weight of evidence that has to be persuasive for the decision maker. Leaky caldron (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extinguish bludgeoning from User:14 novembre. ——Serial 15:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • @Old Naval Rooftops If this is how we decide names, why do we have Manchester United F.C. and Juventus FC. Or we use always the official name, or we always use the common name. No reason for FC Internazionale being an exception. 14 novembre (talk) 21:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think in your move rationale, you make a stronger case for moving Juventus FC to Juventus and Manchester United F.C. to Manchester United, than you do for your actual move request.--Atlan (talk) 05:06, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, it is not only Juve or Manchester Utd, practically all clubs have the official name, with "FC" or something similar and no abbreviations. This is apparently the only major club to gave the common name. However I think the best thing could be start a discussion in WP:Football to decide if Football clubs should be named by 1) their complete, official name or
    2) by their most common name. I have a slight preference for the first option, but the most important thing would be to take a common decision, in one or the other direction. The current situation is option 1) for almost all clubs and 2) of FC Internazionale Milano. Doesn't actually make sense. So if there is no problem I will start such discussion. Kind regards 14 novembre (talk) 10:39, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @14 novembre I would encourage you NOT to go down this route. You are a relatively new, not native English (it seems) user. This is the English WP (as opposed to Italian or anywhere else). The naming of articles it very well established and it is not an area where you can possibly hope to achieve consensus and consistency across thousands of sports club articles (it would not stop at football). If you would only read the many previous attempts at resolving the name of this article you will see the challenge you will face and the insurmountable problems in achieving your version of consistency. Consistency across subjects is not the only factor. Please try to understand that. You have already been rebuffed by going to the wrong place asking WP:AN to perform a "simple" change - please do not go against established practice without considering the very significant consequences. Nothing is straightforward here and I fear you will be out of your depth. Leaky caldron (talk) 12:49, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Leaky caldron Thanks for your advice. Kind regards 14 novembre (talk) 15:10, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @14 novembre Also note, because it is relevant to your WP:FOOTBALL suggestion, that on the English WP any consensus arrived at on a project among a limited group of editors cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, participants in a WikiProject cannot unilaterally decide that general policies or guideline do not apply to articles covered by the project - see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Leaky caldron (talk) 15:27, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, it is not only Juve or Manchester Utd, practically all clubs have the official name, with "FC" or something similar and no abbreviations. This is apparently the only major club to gave the common name. However I think the best thing could be start a discussion in WP:Football to decide if Football clubs should be named by 1) their complete, official name or
    2) by their most common name. I have a slight preference for the first option, but the most important thing would be to take a common decision, in one or the other direction. The current situation is option 1) for almost all clubs and 2) of FC Internazionale Milano. Doesn't actually make sense. So if there is no problem I will start such discussion. Kind regards 14 novembre (talk) 19:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move: This move request seems to treat "official name" and "common name" (as defined by WP:COMMONNAME) as mutually exclusive. This is not the case and it is where the move rationale simply falls apart. With those clubs like Juventus en Manchester United, the official name just happens to also be the common name. Based on this rationale and absent any other compelling argument, I don't see a reason to move--Atlan (talk) 16:12, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extinguish bludgeoning from User:14 novembre. ——Serial 15:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Extinguish bludgeoning from User:14 novembre. ——Serial 15:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • @Atlan Inter Milan is not a nickname. It is a common, abbreviated name. However, articles on football clubs are named not by their common name, but by their official name. It the name should be the most common in media, we should not have Juventus FC but only Juventus; not Manchester United F.C. but Manchester United (or Utd); I can find no reason for which Inter should be an exception, the article being names with the common and not the official complete name. Kind regards 14 novembre (talk) 13:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @14 novembre The reason is clearly and logically argued in the previous 6 discussions over 10 years. You need to overcome the partisan football fanatic perspective and think about this issue in the context of building a policy based encyclopaedia which is for the benefit of everyone - not just knowledgeable soccer fans. It is important to remember why we are here, not simply what we want out of it. Consistency is not the only criteria. While the desire to line everything up neatly is commendable - and occasionally justifiable in itself (such as in entomology) - that is not the case where the naming of an article has to articulate more than that which is purely official. The format and language of the proposed title is an Italian construct which is anti-typical to the English language. The simple challenge is this - is there evidence that "F.C. Internazionale Milano" is more common in English sources than the existing title?
    WP:AT lays out principles for naming criteria. The current title clearly on recognisability, naturalness and conciseness. This is the English Wikipedia - not the Italian. The "man in the street" argument is supported by WP:ENGLISH which states "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language". "Internazionale" and "Milano" are not English words and the use of "F.C." at the beginning is virtually unheard of in English football club names.
Policy and guidelines are the mainstay of WP. Note that the common feature of each of these naming policy guidelines is the word "English". It is not relevant that a name is derivative or slang. It has to be English. It is what is used by WP:RS in the English speaking world that is the basis for naming policy on en-Wiki. Personal likes, preferences and comparisons with other foreign sounding articles cannot override established and documented standards. These are the relevant polices and significant guides:
WP:ENGLISH "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources". "Internazionale" and "Milano" are Italian words.
WP:COMMONNAME ("The most common name for a subject as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources, is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural.")
All reliable evidence is that in the English speaking world Inter Milan outweighs other usage.
WP:NAME ("Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources.")
WP:UE ("The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage")
WP:MOS#FOREIGN ("Foreign words should be used sparingly")
WP:PLACE ("When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.") - Milan not MilanO
Leaky caldron (talk) 15:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME: FIFA (not: Fédération Internationale de Football Association or International Federation of Association Football). Considerations of nicknames, etc., are an exercise in original research. If 14 novembre replies to this comment, as he has every other oppose, and having made almost 40% of all the comments here so far, I will seek a partial block for them from this page.
    Also oppose move per Leaky Cauldron's forensic examination of reasons to move, and logical dismissal of every one of them in turn. ——Serial 15:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Leaky caldron. Idiosincrático (talk) 23:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for consistency's sake with the rest of the articles on Italian football clubs. To respond to the most common policies cited in support of the current name:
    • WP:ENGLISH "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources". The club themselves use "FC Internazionale Milano" on the English language version of their official website (see the title bar and the copyright info on this page, and in very large letters on this page), whereas they don't use "Inter Milan" at all except in the online store. "Inter" yes, "Inter Milan" no (see here.
    • WP:COMMONNAME ("The most common name for a subject as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources, is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural.")
      "FC Internazionale Milano" is recognisable due to the fact that the club use it for themselves and it doesn't take a genius to work out that "FC Internazionale Milano" might refer to the club they might have heard of as "Inter" or "Inter Milan"
    • WP:NAME ("Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources.") – Recognisable: addressed above; unambiguous: obviously; usage: ESPN, The Guardian, UEFA, need I go on?
    • WP:UE ("The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage") – Since "Inter", "Internazionale" and "FC Internazionale Milano" are all used by English-language sources, their use on Wikipedia would follow English-language usage.
    • WP:MOS#FOREIGN ("Foreign words should be used sparingly") – This is spurious. It's not egregious to use the correct name of an organisation when referring to it. You wouldn't talk about Royal Madrid, so why insist on "Inter Milan"?
    • WP:PLACE ("When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.") – This is not the name of a place, it's the name of a football club. Even when the Kyiv article was located at Kiev, the article on that city's most famous football club was located at FC Dynamo Kyiv because that's the way the club spells it. The same should apply here.
  • This article should never have been moved in the first place. The right thing to do is to move it back. – PeeJay 00:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose clear superiority for the current name, see above and this helpful graph. No, PeeJay's argument that the most common name in English reliable sources can be determined from the club's website does not actually make sense, nor does their choice to cite two sources that don't actually use the name they support moving to. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 04:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If your rationale is the most common name, I doubt that people search Juventus FC more than Juventus and Manchester United F.C more than Manchester United 14 novembre (talk) 11:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    When did I say anything about the club's "most common name"? The choice of an article title is not simply based on what's most common. My argument was based on the fact that "Inter", "Internazionale" and "Inter Milan" are all relatively equally common and therefore "FC Internazionale Milano" is the logical choice for the article title. – PeeJay 11:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You quoted WP:ENGLISH. Scroll up if you can't remember. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No need to get snippy. It seems like you're the one who's failed to scroll up, since I was obviously responding to Leaky caldron's arguments relating to those policies. I don't actually think WP:ENGLISH applies here. – PeeJay 17:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per very clear WP:COMMONNAME, which is not superseded by local "rules" made by a section of fandom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:52, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Not this again... the common name in English is very clear, and this has been discussed ad nauseam before... no evidence that the situation has changed.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per all the previous discussions (COMMONNAME). Kante4 (talk) 17:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2024

The first president of the team was the Greek Ἰωάννης Παραμυθιώτης (Giovanni Paramithiotti) born in Venice from a family coming from Paramythia in Thesprotia, Epirus, where his father was born. The Paramithiotis family is well known in Greek life and today there are many prominent Greeks with this surname. For reports about the Jewishness of Paramythiotis are not valid because there were never Jews in Paramythia as there were no Albanians but only Greeks population and the Turkish occupation army. Besides, the nomenclature Paramythiotis is purely Greek and in Italian it uses the H (th) to cover the non-existent Th (Θ) in the Italian alphabet. Kosthell (talk) 20:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 02:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2024

Owner Oaktree Capital Management (99.6%) Pirelli & C. S.p.A. (0,37 %) Other shareholders (0,03 %) 109.43.178.209 (talk) 08:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 20:07, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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