Talk:Virginia

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Vandals take a whack at YOUR MOM

at the top, it says that the state was named "after YOUR MOM, also known as the Virgin Queen." Also, Rhode Island is severely vandalised. Can someone fix that?

The page just needs to be protected from anonymous users.

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Wondering how to edit this State Entry?
The WikiProject U.S. States standards might help.

Miscellaneous Old Topics

I don't think the airports outside of National and Dulles really count as "major airports". Sure they have regularly scheduled commercial service however that alone doesn't make them important. -- jd4508

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Well I made your table work. It's got some flaws in it, though, including that it's too wide for most monitors. What I don't understand, though, is why you want this info in a table to begin with. --Koyaanis Qatsi I'd note that it also seems to lack Pittsylvania County, and I'm to lazy to edit the darn table and insert in the correct order. --Ben Brumfield

File:King George County is missing, too. -- isis 12 Sep 2002

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This --68.255.229.66 00:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC) ---- --~~~~--~~~~[[Media:table is MUCH too large. It would be just as useful as a bulleted list. -- [[User:Zoe|Zoe]]]]

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Who says West Virginia isn't constitutional?

United States Constitution, Article IV, section 3: "New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress."

Of course, the fact that one of the states involved did not consider itself to be a member of the US at the time was probably a mitigating factor. --Brion

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I'm moving this here in case anyone wants to put it back on the subject page.

. A partial list of cities follows:

• Alexandria
• Charlottesville
• Chesapeake
• Danville
• Falls Church
• Lynchburg
• Martinsville
• Norfolk
• Richmond
• Roanoke
• South Boston
• Staunton
• Suffolk
• Virginia
• Williamsburg

List of Virginia counties:

Accomack County, Virginia	Albemarle County, Virginia	Alleghany County, Virginia	Amelia County, Virginia	Amherst County, Virginia
Arlington County, Virginia	Augusta County, Virginia	Bedford County, Virginia	Botetourt County, Virginia	Brunswick County, Virginia
Buchanan County, Virginia	Campbell County, Virginia	Caroline County, Virginia	Carroll County, Virginia	Charles City County, Virginia
Charlotte County, Virginia	Chesterfield County, Virginia	Clarke County, Virginia	Craig County, Virginia	Culpeper County, Virginia
Cumberland County, Virginia	Dickenson County, Virginia	Essex County, Virginia	Fairfax County, Virginia	Fauquier County, Virginia
Floyd County, Virginia	Fluvanna County, Virginia	Franklin County, Virginia	Frederick County, Virginia	Giles County, Virginia
Gloucester County, Virginia	Goochland County, Virginia	Grayson County, Virginia	Greene County, Virginia	Halifax County, Virginia
Hanover County, Virginia	Henrico County, Virginia	Henry County, Virginia	Highland County, Virginia	Isle Of Wight County, Virginia
James City County, Virginia	King William County, Virginia	Lancaster County, Virginia	Lee County, Virginia	Loudoun County, Virginia
Louisa County, Virginia	Mecklenburg County, Virginia	Middlesex County, Virginia	Montgomery County, Virginia	Nelson County, Virginia
New Kent County, Virginia	Northampton County, Virginia	Northumberland County, Virginia	Orange County, Virginia	Page County, Virginia
Patrick County, Virginia	Prince William County, Virginia	Pulaski County, Virginia	Richmond County, Virginia	Roanoke County, Virginia
Rockbridge County, Virginia	Rockingham County, Virginia	Scott County, Virginia	Shenandoah County, Virginia	Smyth County, Virginia
Spotsylvania County, Virginia	Stafford County, Virginia	Tazewell County, Virginia	Washington County, Virginia	Westmoreland County, Virginia
Wise County, Virginia	Wythe County, Virginia	York County, Virginia

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The first permanent English settlement in the New World was at Jamestown, Virginia, in 1607. Virginia formally rejoined the Union on January 26, 1970 after a period of post-war military rule.

Err... might want to fill in a bit in the middle there. --Brion 02:54 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

All in due course. --mav

1970? -- Zoe

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I have a problem with the color in the current VA flag image. It's a bit too light! I have lived in VA for almost two years now and have seen the state flag with a color of blue that looks like the blue is in the US or UK flags. --hoshie

I contacted the VA Lt. Gov's office and they told me that the blue was a deep blue or an indigo blue. Take it as you will. --hoshie

Wealthier than the rest of South????

Under "economy" on the page it stated:

Today, it is still significantly wealthier than the rest of the South, although much of that is from the northern influence around Washington D.C.

I understand that the Washington DC part could factually be true, but the "significantly whealthier part" truly is not. I took some time and I found out that North Carolina grosses more money anually than Virginia...(if you do not believe me search: North Carolina). Apparently, North Carolina's grossed 9.5 billion more than Virginia in the 2004 census estimate. Someone please change this misleading fact.

North Carolina is a bigger state; at least it has a larger population. So just because it grosses more does not make it wealthier than Virginia. Per capita wealth in Virginia appears to be higher. Thesmothete 15:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Independent cities only in VA?

I take exception to the statement:

Unlike any other state of the Union, under the laws in effect in Virginia, all municipalities incorporated as cities are independent of any county.

I grew up in Ohio in the '70s. Unless something has changed since my Ohio History class in 1978, Ohio's incorporated cities are also independent legal entities and are not considered a part of the county that contains them. Common talk may suggest that Youngstown, say, is "in" Mahoning County, OH, but such is also said of Fairfax (city) being "in" Fairfax County, VA. -- Jeff Q 07:05, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

A few days ago, I removed the "unlike any other state" claim completely, in lieu of any accurate data on how common or uncommon such laws were in the US. -- Jeff Q 05:50, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Re: Independent cities only in VA?

You are mistaken about the status of incorporated cities in the State of Ohio. Cities remain part of the county or counties in which they are incorporated. Cities in Ohio still get at minimum 2 key services from their county government: special education for handicapped students, and appeals courts.

Cleveland, for example, is both an incorporated city and the seat of Cuyahoga County. The Cuyahoga County government gets no say in how the city builds or maintains its roads, runs its schools, nor its tax rates. The county runs the schools for the mentally handicapped and developmentally delayed students, as it does for all jurisdictions in the county, such as Parma, Brooklyn, South Euclid, and Lyndhurst. The county courts also act as an appellate court to the city courts.

So though cities in Ohio act largely autonomously from the counties in which they lay, they are not geopolitally separate entities from their counties. Your example of the City of Fairfax, VA being "in" Fairfax County is accurate only insofar as the City is completely surrounded by the County. The County has no say whatsoever in the affairs of the City.

Virginia Cities, by law, must build and maintain their own roads, must provide police protection, and must establish a school system separate from the county's. Cities get no funding or support whatsoever from the county or counties from which they were formed.

Some Virginia Primary Roads, specifically, US 29, US 50, VA 123, VA 236, & VA 237, pass through the City of Fairfax, and the VA Dept of Transportation (VDOT) has the responsibility to plow those roads, and is technically responsible for their upkeep. More usually the city plows the roads, and the state gives a small payment to the city to take care of maintenance. A few years back, in the City of Falls Church, VDOT improved VA 7 through the city. In a joint City/State effort, utilities along the road were buried, the road improved with better curbs, gutters, sidewalks, and crosswalks. No such improvements happened along VA 7 in Fairfax County, as the county is fully dependent on the State for such, and limited in its ability to fund road construction.

Cities in VA are ineligible to turn their secondary roads over to the state, as all the Counties, save for Arlington and Henrico, have. In the counties where VDOT maintains all the roads, every road in the county which is not a VA Primary Road (route number 599 or lower) is numbered as a VA Secondary Road. Secondary Roads are numbered in each county, starting at 600, and counting up from there as each new road is incorporated into the state road system.

The other Independent Cities in the US are Baltimore, MD; Saint Louis, MO; Anchorage, AK; and Carson City, NV. None of those is part of a county, nor merged with their county as the City and County of San Francisco or the City and County of Philadelphia are.

Virginia is the last state to have split its electoral vote in a Presidential Election, in 1916.

This is just plain wrong, so I removed it. See http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/votes/1917_1921.html#1916.

Terms for Governor

I am a Virginia resident and there needs to be mention of the term limits for Governor, but even I myself don't have enough knowledge about this. I know a Governor cannot run again for a next term, but he OR she may be able to run again in the future as long as that person is not an incumbent. Someone needs to research this and mention it in the article. Also, someone definitely needs to put in the article that the Lieutenant Governor can run for 2 terms, consecutive or non-consecutive.

Virginia governors are free to run again as long as they are not the incumbent. As far as I know the only one to do so was Mills Godwin who was governor from 1966-70, then again from 1974-78. Interestingly enough, he ran as a Democrat the first time and as a Republican the second time around.

The term "commonwealth"

I edited a recent change to the intro sentence that implied the term "commonwealth" is simply a name. Indeed, in one sense that is true, as Virginia is of course a state of the United States just like the others; however, there is a historical provenance to the fact Virginia, Maine, Kentucky and... dangit, I forgot the other one, anyway, there is at least a theoretical or academic difference between a "commonwealth" and other forms of state governments. For this reason I modified the intro sentence to reflect this a bit more. --Ryanaxp 19:13, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

According to the link to commonwealth this page, "The U.S. states of Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Virginia call themselves commonwealths. In these cases, this is merely a name and has no legal impact." So I'm changing it back--Fantrl 14:44, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

__ It would be great if someone would put the counties back. To find anything about Virginia, you have to know the county, and wikipedia is a good place to collect and distribute that kind of information. Thanks! scarykitty Aug 25, 2005.

To be a Virginian

Does anyone know to whom we may attribute these somewhat famous lines "To be a Virginian, either by Birth, Marriage, Adoption, or even on one's Mother's side is an Introduction to any State in the Union, a Passport to any Foreign Country, and a Benediction from Above"

(William Faulkner?)

Mark in Historic Triangle Vaoverland 08:48, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I have heard this quote with "Southerner" replacing "Virginian". It sounds like Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) to me. - Stillnotelf 04:21, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I asked the reference desk and special collections people at Swem Library at the College of William and Mary -- they're pretty good with random Virginia factoids - they say that they've always seen it attributed "anonymous" and that they've looked for a source before to no avail. - Stillnotelf 19:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I still haven't found an attribution, either. Oh well, what me worry? (Alfred E. Neuman). Vaoverland 22:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Fairfax County -- Highest Income

User:Zidel333 wrote, in the Virginia article,

According to the US Census, Fairfax County has the highest median income of any county in the United States with a population of more then 1,000,000 of $88,133.

First, I might suggest a way to rephrase it to make it flow better:

According to the U.S. Census, among all U.S. counties of more than a million people, Fairfax County has the highest median family income, $88,133.

That is, assuming you did mean family income. If you meant individual income, then say that instead. What is your source? Can you cite a web page? That helps. Then you can link it to U.S. Census in case anyone doubts you, and also so that future editors can re-check the website to see if the data have changed.

By the way, I haven't checked to see if your words have subsequently been "wordsmithed" or deleted for lack of citation -- but if they have, don't fret. I see you're new around here. If you get reverted, it stings, I know. But you can fix the complaint (if it was just a lack of citation or wordsmithing) and re-edit the article.

And, oh, by the way... WELCOME! It's great to have one more editor who wants to make this thing better!

--GraemeMcRae 22:00, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I did a little more digging around, and I think you should quote this figure: $84,009 is the median household income for the county of Fairfax, according to Census Bureau estimates for the year 2000, and among all U.S. counties with a population over a million (if, in fact Fairfax is over a million), this is the highest. I found this information...

Census bureau data for income and poverty

Title of this website is as follows:

U.S. Census Bureau

Small Area Income & Poverty Estimates (SAIPE)

Model-based Estimates for States, Counties & School Districts

Data from the "all" file (filename est00ALL.dat) on directory http://www.census.gov/housing/saipe/estmod00 can be saved by opening http://www.census.gov/housing/saipe/estmod00/est00ALL.dat, and saving the contents as a .txt file.

Oddly enough, this file doesn't have the population of each county, so I included one calculated field, which is the population -- it's the number of people (all ages) in poverty divided by the percentage (all ages) in poverty. Unfortuately, this measure is highly inacurate for counties like Fairfax that have very little poverty!

Still, even by that measure, the population was 998,707, so I can believe it was just over a million, this error the result of rounding.

The only counties with higher median household income are Loudoun County, VA, and Douglas County, CO, and these counties have far fewer than a million people in them.

So your edit passes muster. But still, I'm wondering... Did you have an easier way to get at this data?

--GraemeMcRae 23:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Virgina governor race

update:trying to get to Virgina state web sites to find out how to vote in up coming major election (state and country).....

http://www.sbe.state.va.us/VotRegServ/reg2vote.htm

they are down during the night hours...no explanation

david kelly

David, the web page you mention is non-existent. That's why you get the "404" error. Here is the page you should use to register to vote in Virginia:

http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/Voter_Information/Registering_to_Vote/Index.html —GraemeMcRae^talk 07:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

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I don't think it is appropriate to list Tim Kaine as the current governor when he has not yet been sworn in and Mark Warner is still in office.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.132.40.28 (talk • contribs) .

Arlington is not a city

I removed Arlington from the list of cities. It is not a city, but a county (the smallest county in Virginia).

NPOV

• See Tennessee article for issues. --Bookofsecrets 15:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

• I have read the Tennessee article and talk. There were many issues on there. To which issue are you specifically referring? NPOV flag removed from article pending further explanation. Mmoyer 16:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

• I placed the NPOV back. The issue is that "Southern" is a cultural term in the 21st Century. Those states that are in the Southeastern United States should be called "Southeastern" states to meet NPOV policies. --Bookofsecrets 19:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

• I have updated the lead paragraph to read "Southeastern" and I have removed the NPOV tag. --Bookofsecrets 19:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

• I have carefully considered your issue, and I believe that it is fact, not opinion, that identifies Virginia as a "southern" state. The designation may be a bit more cultural than geographic (mid-Atlantic is more geographically correct), but given that Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, you would have a difficult time finding any long time resident of Virginia that would disagree with the moniker "southern state". Just because "southern state" is more a cultural designation does not make it any less factual. Question: Would the following phrase be more acceptable? "It is located in the Mid-Atlantic States, but is often referred to as a Southern state due to its alignment with the Confederacy during the Civil War." Mmoyer 01:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Revamping by Civil Engineer III

• Wow! Those are a lot of changes. Question: I see that you have dropped the postal and AP abbreviations. Was this intentional? Umm, the changes were so massive it's difficult to ascertain if other info was also lost. I almost reverted the entire series of changes, simply based on the magnititude, hoping to review in detail. Can anyone else chime in? Mmoyer 20:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me or does the table look kind of silly?

virginia

virginia is an place where people love to camp and have some fun

Trimmed opening paragraph by JW1805

I can see no pressing reason to cut down the opening paragraph without discussing it first, so I reverted it. I invite you to discuss your ideas for changing the opening paragraphs here, JW1805. Hope to hear from you. Mmoyer 03:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

• It's too long and is nearly a word-for-word duplicate of text later on in the article. There is no good reason to mention parallels and joint stock companies in the opening. --JW1805 (Talk) 03:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The more I read and re-read the opening paragraph, I believe I agree with JW1805. At the very worse, the section that was edited out and which spurred this conversation should be reduced and re-written, rather than exist as a virtual copy of information further down below. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 15:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandals

Is there a way that we can block vandals from editing stupid crap on this site, like the George Washington site. Seeing people putting stupid stuff on this site everyday gets old.

Thanks, Rutke421 02:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

VA/MD

MY Opinion:

   I clearly belive that Maryland/Virginia are southern states!

Many People object to the idea of Virginia and Maryland being southern. Im from Maryland so I know. I hate it when people that don't know me come in my face with all that "yankee" crap...i aint no yankee...im myself! And I absolutly HATE when people say that VA an MD are rude, inconciterate, uneducated, boring, bad drivers. Im fun, nice, and filled with GREAT hospitality.

Next Subject: Civil war/M&D line.

   If everyone knows that MD and VA are BELOW the Mason Dixon Line... why do some people feel the need to say that MD and VA are Northern????

It's quite -how can i say- IDIOTIC! Yes, folks, I know that the MDL was not made to divide the north and the south, but It's pretty usefull to divide the two. Doncha think???...About the civil war...VA was apart of the confeds...i can't lie, BUT MD was FORSED to become apart of the union and most of the people wanted to be with the feds.(yuddah im sayin)...So anyways, like i was sayin, VA & MD are natrually South.

Subject 3: MD.

   Everyone knows that MD is not like the rest of the southern states-no accent(mostly), not many confed. flags, has northern-like cities, bad traffic etc.- but it is still SOUTHERN.

I mean dang, like many other southern states, we take pride in are lil southerness, we sometimes act a lil country, and we still TALK diffrent from the north...esspecially Dc/B-more area. CUT US SOME SLACK!

Final Subject: Overall.

   Over all, Maryland and Virginia are southern!

They have many southern charms too. Infact, we have great hospitaliy too! Don't worry, be happy. Even if your mad, you HAVE TO admit that maryland and virginia are atleast a TAD BIT southern. YEs, YEs, YEs, we do have many qualities like the north(aka bad traffic...lol), But you must admit(if youve been too maryland and virginia...NOT B-MORE or DC)that it is southern in some areas!

ps. dont post nasty negitive comments about Virginia or Maryland..okedoke allipokey...lolz

ps no 2. IF you ask a man at a gas station in Southern, MD.... you'll know that chu in the south. - Footballchik

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maryland"

It is mainly because of the Civil War. Maryland was part of the Union cause, even though there were plenty of supporters for the South. Plus the location of the Northern capital plays a role in this argument. Rutke421 16:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

New Sports section added to updated Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states format

The Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states format has been updated to include a new Sports section, that covers collegiate sports, amateur sports, and non-team sports (such as hunting and fishing). Please feel free to add this new heading, and supply information about sports in Virginia. Please see South_carolina#Sports_in_South_Carolina as an example. NorCalHistory 16:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Rest of Virginia merge in proposed

It looks like someone has written an article called Rest of Virginia. Would it be a good idea to merge it into this article? It seems like a neologism that might be better mentioned here rather than in its own article. --Takeel 00:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, after looking over it, I would feel that any inclusion into the Virginia article should be in the area of one or two lines of text, tops. That, or simply link to it from the geography section. As is, while the differences between NoVA and the rest of Virginia are well known and debated, this was the first time I've ever seen RoVA identified as something individual. Rather, its like some one created an article called "Rest of New York" and referred to how the rest of New York State differed from the New York City metropolitan area. Ergo, I'm not sure if the article needs to exist. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 13:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It's at Upstate New York. --Kineticman 12:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I sure picked a bad example. Regardless, I still oppose a merge, but the option I suggested above. As for the original RoVA article, it could use some citations due to its claim that was used in many media sources.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 13:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that the "article" could be shortened to two sentences explaining the whole thing. I honestly don't think it's relevant enough to have an entire article on.--Jude 06:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Please merge any relevant content from Rest of Virginia per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rest of Virginia. Thanks. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-28 14:55Z

Virginia's governor elections

Under the Trivia heading it says that Virginia and New Jersey hold gubernatorial elections in the year after the presidential elections. This is not true for VA at least. Our governors are elected for a 6 year term. One election the president and the governor's are elected together, + 4 years = presidential election, + 2 years = gubernatorial election, + 2 years = presidential, + 4 years = both. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.53.194.141 (talk) 02:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

Reasoning for Deleting Certain External Links

Website: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/raleigh.htm
Reasoning: This website is about Sir Walter Raleigh. This link should go on a page about Sir Walter Raleigh NOT Virginia.

Website: http://www.outinvirginia.org/
Reasoning: This page is someone's personal blog. Personal blogs should not be linked to in Wikipedia. A majority of this site does not even deal with anything in Virginia.

Website: http://www.vabook.org/
Reasoning: This website is an advertisment for an event that will be happening in Virginia. Wikipedia is not a place for advertising. Eric 22:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I'm new to this, and I noticed a "Hallo Olli" in the geography section of VA. I'm not good enough to even find the entry that creates that, so I ask that someone who knows what he's doing fixes that article.

Thanks 70.108.13.185 15:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Sebastian

checked, and another user has already fixed it. Thanks, Sebastian. P.S. Why not register as a user and continue helping us in whatever way(s) you can? Vaoverland 17:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Sebastian, a second thanks for thinking of posting. I fixed this issue yesterday, as well another "hi" sort of messaging. Its amazing, but the hi messaging that preceded the "Hallo Ollie" got through the radar of editors for a number of days. So anytime anyone points something out, always helps. :) ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 18:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Faults

Can i list and describe all the faultlines in VA?--Takaomi I. Shimoi 16:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that should be fine. Just put it in an appropriate place in the Geography section. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 00:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

There I am still doing research on the faults but i got the quakes!--Takaomi I. Shimoi 16:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved your information to a separate article, Virginia seismic zone, because the main Virignia page should just have basic information, with branches off into specific pages. Keep up the good work.--Patrick 17:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yowzers, thats a lot of info! Thanks for moving that, Patrick. And, Takaomi I. Shimoi, very interesting stuff! ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 23:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Religion

Shouldn't the demographic percentages relating to religion add up to 100%? Or am I confused?

The religion percentages listed do not add up for the Christian denominations. Right now, Protestants, are listed as 49%, Roman Catholics as 14%, and other Christians as 13%. 49 + 14 + 13 = 76, not the 69 as listed. I'm changing it. DBQer 02:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Virginia...eastern instead of southern?

I found recently that one of the official definitions of Virginia geographically place the state in the direct Eastern United States. Not Southeastern and not Northeastern. Any comments?--Mphifer254 21:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

This may fall into the recent practice of placing Virginia in the Mid-Atlantic (eastern) states. However, historically, culturally, and geographically, Virginia is Southern. Though, in terms of the South, it is referred to as being in the Upper South. The only earlier references to Virginia being eastern is only in terms to as referring to it in the east, in the same manner as any of the states not in the mid-west or west. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 00:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I have to disagree. Historically? yes, but as far as geographically and culturally, Virginia is not southern. Weather and dialect, amongst other things, makes it distinct from the south; moreover, there are other factors that keep Virginia from being northern. Even with that said, I'm sure most people feel that Virginia is northeastern.--Mphifer254 01:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Geographically, for centuries, Virginia was considered the South, specifically the Upper South. The grand dividing line between North and South, the Mason-Dixon, placed the state firmly to the South geographically. Culturally, speaking, I grew up in Charlottesville, Virginia, home to no less than three statues referencing the Confederate States of America. They were placed there as late as the 1920's. The growing population in Northern Virginia, consisting mainly of individuals not born in Virginia or raised by parents not born in Virginia, is probably the closest to non-Southern as Virginia gets. As is, I'm rather lost to how dialect exempts the state from being of the South. As a child, my family went to New York city. At a hotel, the first thing a clerk said after my mother finished speaking,"So you're from the South?" ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 11:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I was born in Virginia, and I was always told it was a Northeast state. Never the South. And I personally have never heard a southern accent in any of the Virginia natives I know. It's almost neutral in a way. And that "grand dividing line" you're speaking of did not divide the states in geographic terms, it divided them by their laws.

You could also look at the Wikipedia articles for the South and the Northeast. Both equally argue Virginia as part of their territory, so it's fair to say that this places it in the direct East. You could even look at a map and see this as it's closer to New York than it is to Georgia. It even looks like it's in the dead East. Smack-dab in the middle. The dictionary defines Virginia as an Eastern state.--Mphifer254 14:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This debate is a longrunning one regarding how to classify Virginia. Geographically, it's probably cleanest to classify VA as an Eastern State. Politically and historically, it was generally considered part of the "South". Your disagreement reflects the same ambivalence that I have seen as a longtime Virginian. Residents of Northern VA seem most likely to consider themselves Easterners or even Northeasterners. People from Richmond, Southeastern or Southwestern VA are more likely to consider themselves Southerners. Bottom line is that I think we should be cautious about applying labels. Readers can see for themselves where it falls on the map. Other than that, I suggest merely noting that it was part of the historical "South", as that fact has defined a lot of Virginia history - slavery, civil war etc.--Kubigula (talk) 15:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well in that case, we should indeed note it as being in the direct east. Only because it's debated, and several definitions and sources have conflicting "facts." I motion that it only be listed as historically southern, but geographically eastern.--Mphifer254 20:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I figured, why not go to the source? I went to the official website for Virginia and found this line," Located midway between New York and Florida, Virginia is the gateway to the South. It is also sometimes classified in the Mid-Atlantic region." I take that to mean that its part of the south. The same way that St. Louis, the Gateway to the West, was considered in the West (course, now the Mid-west). Though, if one has never heard a southern accent in Virginia, then one needs to get out and drive. Particularly, once you hit the less urban parts of the state, or the Valley or Southwest Virginia, the accent can't be missed. Here's Wiki's own article on the matter. If you don't mind me asking, Mphifer, where did you go to school and grow up? Curious on that matter. :)

Going back to the other Wiki articles. The Northeastern United States only references Virginia three times; twice in the climate section, and once in the urban section (right next to North Carolina). In fact, that article doesn't even list Virginia as part of the Northeast;"As defined by the U.S. Census Bureau, the Northeast region of the United States covers nine states: Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Vermont," and never even makes the claim. For some reason, the map used, is the only thing that actually directly implies Virginia is part of this section, and even then, its in the "disputed region" section. The Southern United States, however, directly states that Virginia is part of the South, in numerous locations. So by Wiki standards, Virginia is part of the South. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 21:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

So because it's on the "official" website, they know what they're talking about? It goes back to being based on people's various opinions. The Wikipedia maps for the Northeast and South both highlight Virginia as one of theirs. But if you notice, neither map lists Virginia as always being considered Southern or Northeastern. Same thing with Texas. Half of it is in the Southwest, the other half is in the South, and one corner of the state is Southeastern-ish, so in the article it's listed as being in both the SW and S (i.e. direct south). The same needs to be done with Virginia since it is disputed. I'm not saying that we need to list it as a Northeastern state, I'm saying that it needs to be described as a state in the direct east (in the head paragraph). And in the article it can be mentioned about how the region it identifies with is argued. This makes perfect sense. I also feel that the same should be done for Maryland and Louisiana.--Mphifer254 04:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Uh, thats the "official" website of the Commonwealth of Virginia, created and maintained by the state government. Its what the Commonwealth of Virginia is officially saying. Another example would be to go to the United States Senate website and taking their word for the fact that there are 100 senators. If all you have going for yourself are editor created maps, not the actual content of the articles, then I think you need to go back and find more sources to support your claim. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 21:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been watching this dispute unfold over the last couple of days, and I thought I'd jump in now to say that I think RebelAt's right about this. The fact that Virginia is located in the geographic center of the east coast isn't really relevant to the article. And furthermore, Mphifer, if you're so concerned that Virginia ought to be "described as a state in the direct east," then worry no longer: Anybody who looks at the map at the top of the page will be able to see that pretty clearly. Think of it as a pictorial description. Seriously, what could be more clear?

Furthermore, the practice of categorizing geographical areas in a less than geographically-precise way is not limited to the United States, and nobody who bothers to read the article is going to be confused, as things stand. On the other hand, historically speaking, the state has always been considered southern, and to start calling it eastern or northeastern in an encyclopedia entry would be both strange and irresponsible.

Finally, I've got to admit that I'm also curious about where Mphifer lived and grew up, if he or she has never managed to detect an identifiably southern accent or dialect in the speech of Virginians. You don't even need to get as far south as Charlottesville to hear this. My family's in Fairfax county, waaaaay up in Northern Virginia, and it's always been pretty obvious to me that there was a regional accent to be heard there. Granted, most Virginians don't sound like Jesse Helms, but that's because they're from a different part of the south. It's a big country, so regional variations ought to be expected. Buck Mulligan 22:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposal-> I suggest combining the census bureau definition with Virginia's historical definition. Specifically, I propose changing the lead sentence to the following:

The Commonwealth of Virginia is a South Atlantic state historically considered part of the Southern region of the United States. --Kubigula (talk) 22:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. Buck Mulligan 22:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Works for me.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 22:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

No, we cannot do that because it still stands that it's location is disputed. Virginia as a southern state is neither confirmed or generally understood. Many, many people feel that it is a Northeastern state. I think that we just need to list it as being in the exact East U.S. Things that are commonly disputed are better left in a neutral state. It's not hurting or misinforming anyone.--Mphifer254 03:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Simply saying VA is in the Eastern US is not misinforming, but it's not really informing either. I don't think the two assertions in my proposal are disputed or really even disputable. The census bureau defines VA as a South Atlantic state, which I think is as close as you can get to an official U.S. government designation of its regional location. Also, saying that VA was historically considered part of "The South" also seems beyond dispute, given the Mason Dixon line, the Civil War etc. People may feel differently about how to describe VA today, but the two points above are factually correct and informative for the article.--Kubigula (talk) 04:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with everything Kubigula says, just above. Furthermore, the fact that Mphifer254 disputes the appelation "south Atlantic" does not mean, contrary to what s/he says, that "Virginia as a southern state is neither confirmed or generally understood." In fact, we've now seen two official citations to the effect that Virginia is officially considered (as in, considered by the government) southern. Where are Mphifer254's sources? Now would be the time to show us.

But that's not going to happen, and this discussion is only going to get more and more ridiculous. Look at what Mphifer254 has said so far: S/he begins this whole business (17 April) by saying that "one of the official definitions of Virginia geographically place the state in the direct Eastern United States." Then, when RebelAt actually does cite an official source (18 April) to the effect that Virginia is a "southern" state, Mphifer254 counters with "So because it's on the "official" website, they know what they're talking about? It goes back to being based on people's various opinions." Okay... so which is it? Mphifer254 wanted to talk official, and an official version was duly supplied. Are we going to spend the next month arguing over which people's various opinions we're going to go with, or are we going to go with the official version of the story? If we choose the former, we're basically putting original research on the page, which as we all know is something we don't do around here. If we choose the latter option we're taking our lead from the Census Bureau and the state's own website. Seriously, this is just about the most brainless no-brainer ever.

At the risk of belaboring what ought to be a glaringly obvious point: the purpose of this encyclopedia is not to re-write history or re-draw maps. I could get on the Minnesota page and start claiming that "some people" are of the opinion that it's a northern state, not a midwestern state (hey, it's up north, isn't it?), and that would be roughly as silly as the current objection. Buck Mulligan 04:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't care anymore, lol. Y'all can do whatever you want with it.--Mphifer254 22:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the opening statement. Virginia has been "historically" considered Southern, but that implies that it was and is no longer considered Southern, which is certainly not the case. There are parts of Virginia (Northern Virginia) where southern language and culture has faded, but to call the state Northeastern is ridiculous. Also, most of the state has a humid subtropical climate like the rest of the South. 71.48.140.3 13:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, if you've read the talk page, you'd have seen that this is not the kind of thing that people are just going to watch somebody change without a very long discussion. But more importantly, the phrase "is ... historically considered" does not imply that it is no longer considered a southern state. If we'd said "was ... historically considered" then that would indeed be the implication, but as things stand, all we're saying is that it's geographically located in the middle of the eastern seaboard, but that--geography aside--it's historically been thought of as a southern state. Nowhere in the article does it say that Virginia is a northeastern state, which was the whole point of a very long discussion. Buck Mulligan 14:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I did read the discussion and I still don't agree with the use of "historically" in this instance. As a Virginian, I really don't understand this controversy over Southern vs. not Southern that seems to be brought about by the prominence of Northern Virginia in the media. NoVa is only about a third of the population and less than a third of the area of the state. Virginia is not a case like Florida where the non-native population bases are much, much larger. 71.48.140.3 14:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

If you read the article on Southern United States, you'll see the same kind of ambivalence that has plagued this article. People keep coming here and trying to change the geographic designation - Eastern, Southeastern, even Northeastern. I completely agree with Buck's analysis regarding the "is...historically considered". The statement is completely correct and not really disputable - Virginia is historically part of the South. However, by using the "historically" qualifier, it (hopefully) prevents people from constantly revisiting the issue of whether VA is part of the "Modern South" or whether some other regional designation should apply.--Kubigula (talk) 15:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I still disagree. Anyone actually from Virginia and who has traveled the state knows that it is the South. Maryland is historically considered the South (but probably no longer qualifies); Virginia is, was, and continues to be the South. The problem with the opening statement is that it can be applied to states such as Maryland and Missouri where the majority of population does not have a Southern culture or dialect. We might as well say North Carolina is "historically" considered a part of the South because there are a lot of transplants around Raleigh and Charlotte.71.48.140.3 20:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The point isn't really that Virginia might not be considered southern, culturally. Just about everybody here agrees that it is a southern state. Incidentally, I am one of these people who agrees that Virginia is properly speaking a southern state, and I am from Virginia. My parents are still there, and I go back several times a year. The difficulty that led to this intro sentence mainly concerned working out a three-way compromise such that: apart from the majority opinion (which, again: you and I both share), some people, who were concerned that its geographical position was better described as eastern, would be placated, while some others (a small minority, but a vocal one) who were concerned that northern Virginia was becoming culturally less southern, were also placated. I have no idea what people are saying on the North Carolina page, but it's irrelevant to the discussion on this one, mainly because of North Carolina's geographical location. On the other hand, if you look at the Talk:Southern United States page, you'll find a rather long and drawn out discussion of whether or not Virginia qualifies as a "southern" state or a "border" state. This isn't just hair-splitting that happens here and no place else, in other words.

And again, while I guess my heart is with you on this, I think I speak for everyone (mainly since nobody else has been talking) when I say that this kind of compromise is part of life around here, and I'd rather avoid another run-in with some stubborn person denying the obvious southernness of Virginia, outright (for which, see the very long discussion above). On the other hand, if what I'm saying doesn't reflect the general consensus around here, then somebody ought to speak up. Buck Mulligan 21:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I have read the Southern US talk page before and I find the ambivalence there equally as ridiculous as I do here. "Eastern" is a very poor descriptor for Virginia, as Maine, New York, and Florida, for example, are also in the Eastern U.S. The hair-splitting is unfounded and the "historically" description is poor. I understand your position and appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) 71.48.140.3 22:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, and again I find myself agreeing with the substance of what you're saying. And like I said, I certainly don't mean to play the tyrant here--far from it. If I'm not saying what's on everybody's mind then I really do hope more people will speak up, because quite frankly I was perfectly happy with the way things were before Mphifer254 started this whole crazy discussion, with that business about Virginia being in the "exact East" and so forth. Buck Mulligan 22:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to hear more discussion on it, because I believe the "sterilized" version that's up now is actually less accurate then simply calling it "Southern." Don't get me started on the "exact East," what in the heck is that? 71.48.140.3 23:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but I don't think saying Virginia is historically considered a Southern state is "sanitized". We are saying the same thing, just in a way that's harder to argue with. I suppose that the fact that this is getting criticized for being both too Southern and not Southern enough means that it's a good compromise. P.S. Buck -I'm glad you're not playing the tyrant here, because you know how Virginians feel about tyrants - Sic semper tyrannis.--Kubigula (talk) 01:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Kubigula's point about having reached the correct level of compromise is probably right on the money. Sadly, it really does seem better not to entirely please anyone sometimes. Still, as I said before, anyone follwing along at home ought to speak up now if they don't like the way this is going. By the way: As coincidence would have it, somebody has just posted a challenge on the [Southern U.S. talk page], insisting that Virginia is not in fact a southern state. Sic semper, indeed... Buck Mulligan 02:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

"insisting that Virginia is not in fact a southern state." Good Lord...ridiculous! "Historically considered a Southern state" *is* sanitized. Just because it's difficult to argue with doesn't make it accurate or a good compromise. I just do not like that word in this context. If we could find a better word similar to generally or usually (which aren't any more vague than 'historically') considered Southern, I'd be more comfortable. 71.48.140.3 04:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Virginia! Wow!!! What a subject. Before I state my opinion on the matter let me start out by saying. I was born in Norfolk, VA, I now live in Washington, DC. I've spent my fair share of time in Maryland and through out Virginia. From Baltimore to Salisbury, from Virginia Beach to Radford. And what I have noticed in my travels is this region is a medley of Eastern U.S. culture. Because of this blend I can see why it's such a disputed State. A pattern I've noticed is that the more Urban/suburban areas of the eastern and northern parts of the state tend to be more Northern in culture and have less (or no) "southern" accent or dialect. While in more rural areas and urban towns of the south-central, southwestern and Eastern Shore regions of the state showcase a more Southern culture. Geographically Virginia is in the northern half of the country and definitely in the eastern half now whether or no this constitutes it being in the Northeast is a different story. The border between Virginia and North Carolina running west from the Atlantic coast dividing Kentucky and Tennessee; then Missouri and Arkansas; Kansas and Oklahoma; Colorado and New Mexico; and lastly Utah and Arizona which roughly follows the 36°30' parallel north or 37th parallel north and evenly divides the nation into a northern half and a southern half kind of like the Equator of the U.S. Geographically speaking everything above of this parallel is north and all which is below is south. Culturally Virginia has a lot in common with many other Eastern states. So why wouldn't it be Eastern. Why is Eastern less descriptive than Southern when speaking in terms of "culture". Rural Pennsylvania had a lot in common with Rural Virginia and Maryland. Coastal Delaware is similar to coastal Virginia and North Carolina. Horse racing is popular in Kentucky, Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania as well as New York. Rural South Jersey is reminiscent of that in Virginia's farmland. Pennsylvania's Dutch country is akin to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley Quaker settlement. Today's modern U.S. is a far cry from what divided the nation over a century ago. Historically Virginia was a Confederate state. Since the Mason-Dixon Line is the legal North-South Divide then Virginia, D.C. West Virginia and Maryland are indeed legally in the south. And all of the above listed have very "Southern" Characteristics but it can't be denied that they all also have a very "Northern" character about them. Relatively speaking. Many residents of the "Deep South" don't identify with Virginia as being in the South. Out West a great majority of Californians look at Virginia as just being another East Coast state While a New Yorker may think that a trip to Delaware was "going down South"! In another instance residence of Emporia, VA may think of Alexandria, VA as being "Up North". What I'm trying to say is that Virginia as is the rest of the Mid-Atlantic is a very disputed region. A region so disputed that during the Civil War is was divided into 2 separate states. By no means is West Virginia more Northern in culture just because it was a Union state. Finally I think Wikipedia should come up with a unified labeling or wording method for every State entry. Meaning a reader could expect to find certain specific content on whatever state article they read. There should always be an introduction with "this" info stated in "this" way followed by what ever sub-categories that may pertain to the article. In my opinion Virginia is a Northeastern state with Southern Roots. Growing up in the Hampton Roads area I always identified with being from the East. I never really considered myself or my state Southern. dlaw1979 11:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Virginia Tech shooting inclusion

I removed the following text from the main page in the history section:

(Main article: Virginia Tech massacre) On April 16, 2007 a man shot and killed 32 people, wounded many others and killed himself. This is the worst civillian shooting in United States history surpassing the Luby's massacre of 1991, and the infamous Columbine shootings which left sixteen dead in 1999.

While the event is indeed tragic and ghastly, as well as momentous as being the worst shooting in American history, I'm not sure if it belongs on the main page for the commonwealth. For example, Columbine High School massacre is not on the main page for the state of Colorado. In terms of tragedy, it pales in comparison to the American Civil War (which preceded its last entry). Also, I'm not sure how the shooting will end up in terms of Virginia's over all history. At the moment, I think the best location may well be this spot in the History of Virginia article and the section reserved for recent events. In brief, this event, as terrible as it is, may be too recent to be accurately judge for placement on in the main Virginia article. Thoughts? ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 00:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning.--Kubigula (talk) 01:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree, this page should be general info about the state with gateways to specific topics.--Patrick 01:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As stated in the edit comment when I removed it myself, recentism is evil. --Servant Saber 03:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Improvements

This article is in need of revamping of the economy section. If anyone is knowledgeable about the economy than they could probably also create a Economy of Virginia article. It also needs a culture section, something that shouldn't be too hard considering Virginia's history. T Rex | talk 10:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say the biggest issue with the article right now is the lack of referencing. If we want to move it up to GA or FA, we absolutely need more references (and uniformity in the citation style). Beyond that, several of the sections needed better organization and more flow to the prose. I agree with T Rex that the "Economy" section probably needs it the most, though the "Important Cities and Towns" is not far behind. "Laws and Government" needs tweaking too, particularly in separating the historical info from the current structure. Overall, I'd say there's a lot of good stuff here, though there is certainly lots to do to bring it up to GA class. I'll try to start work on the referencing soon.--Kubigula (talk) 04:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

T Rex is right that there should probably be a culture section too. Please pipe in if you have ideas, but general copyediting would help or perhaps taking an individual section and running with it. I think I'd enjoy working on the Laws and Government section, though I'll defer if someone else wants it and I'll commit to working on whatever's left.--Kubigula (talk) 04:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)