Talk:One Thousand and One Nights

Titles

Do we really need every single language's version of the title of the 1001 Nights? Like Bulgarian? Can we delete all except for Arabic since the oldest existing book of stories was in Arabic?stan goldsmith 19:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, Stan. The long list is excessive, and most other books don't list all translations of their titles. My guess is that consensus will require keeping both Arabic and Persian. If the other names are important to some readers, perhaps we can create a subsection below with a reference to it (as in the Vienna article referenced in WP:MOS). — Taranah 00:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Versions

If you want to be faithful to the history of the Nights there should be different pages for each different version with what we know about them on the pages. IE Burton's translation should have its own page, as should Haddawy's, etc.

I rewrote most of this page to reflect certain academic truths about the Nights: 1. There are too many versions for it to be "one" piece of literature and 2. There is absolutely no historical basis to say that the stories all come from one place.

The part of this page discussing literature and film seems like it should be taken out or made different pages and is badly written but I kept it in because it all seems verifiable.

stan goldsmith 18:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Stan, for your dedication to this page! It looks good, and I am glad it is grounded better in academic scholarship. After reading the intro and the synopsis, I'm thinking of moving a few things around a bit. It seems to me that the full description of the frame story belongs in the synopsis section and the intro should just mention that there is a frame story and that the other stories follow it. Taranah 21:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me Taranah. stan goldsmith 00:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Origins

What cracks me up the most about this retarded debate about Persian vs. Arabic is that most of the stories that people are familiar with have European origins. Galland, Burton and others freely made up stories and shoved them into the collection at will. So your Persian/Arabic connection is really English, French and German mainly, with a few Persian and Arabic names and words tossed in for good "Oriental" mystique, which European readers loved during the 17th-18th centuries.

The 9th century manuscript has only a few stories and the oldest Arabic version has only about 100 stories. The Persian collection called "Hazar Af Saneh" has never been found, though it was mentioned in the Fihrist of Al-Nadim, but only so much as the names of the 2 main characters.

So before anyone goes crazy about whether it's Persian or whatever, do your research, go to the library, read books about the history of the 1001 Nights, anything, and unfortunately you'll see that most of the stories in there come from Europe. You will never find a first edition of the Nights because one does not exist. That is why they are so cool.

stan goldsmith 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Dawood?

No mention of Dawood's English version? It's only relevant to English I guess, but this is the English wiki :)

Intro and Timeline

Why was my intro and timeline deleted? It was the most encyclopedic version of the collection?

Especially the timeline.

WTF???

Wikipedia just lost my contributions. I'm tired of putting in so much work just to have it deleted for no apparent reason. The 1001 Nights is the topic of my PHD diss, so I think I have some experience with researching it.

You know what? Don't put them back up, they are now private content and I'm going to put the info on my own website. You guys can keep this shabby 4th grade version of something.

stan goldsmith 21:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought the timeline was particularly useful. Why has it been deleted? According to my sources it was accurate. I will add it back in if there are no further comments on the topic here in the next few days. Taranah 18:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I got mad. I worked hard on that info. What about the introduction? My introduction was much more comprehensive and gave a good overview of the Nights than what is up. Not sure why there has to be Farsi translations of the names of the characters too, unless you also want to include Arabic, Urdu, Russian, etc.

stan goldsmith 18:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't allow insertion of original research (WP:NOR). - Marmoulak 22:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I support the policy about no original research, but the timeline was compiled from two specific references that Stan listed:

• Dwight Reynolds. "The Thousand and One Nights: A History of the Text and its Reception." The Cambridge History of Arabic Literature: Arabic Literature in the Post-Classical Period. Cambridge UP, 2006.
• Robert Irwin. The Arabian Nights: A Companion. Tauris Parke, 2004.

Both references are considered reliable and authoritative. I have not read the modified introduction carefully so I can't comment on whether any original research was introduced, but I would certainly like to see a scholarly timeline included in the article. Taranah 23:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I think a small amount was -- the part regarding the mystery of the Nights is the sort of thing that'd need sourcing, I think. We can't make a claim like that on our own. Most of the other changes are simple to verify from the text of the Nights itself; it's easy to see, for instance, that some of the stories are framed within other stories. As far as the timeline goes, it all appears verified between those two sources. I see no explanation for the removal of Galland, and it certainly seems rather important in the publication history according to those sources, so I've reverted that as well. I would ask for a more detailed discussion here before any further removals of any of this information, since it seems consensus is toward its inclusion. Shimeru 08:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks & as for the timeline it is original content created by myself that was culled from information in those books (not copyright infringement).stan goldsmith 21:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Right, sorry if that wasn't clear. What I mean is, it isn't original research in the sense that Wikipedia uses the term -- it's verified in third-party sources, not something you came up with in its entirety. Shimeru 07:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

older comments

My memory has misled me. The Book of Esther does not say that the king would execute a bride per day. I don't know why I thought so, but I just reread the story (at [[1]]) and I was wrong.

---

Even if 1000 represents infinity, 1000 + 1 would not be a transfinite number larger than infinity. Although I suppose if "1000 + 1" is taken to mean "The first number after infinity", then it does represent a transfinite number.

---

"moribund detail"??? - Jmabel 03:49, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

My Burton edition claims that Aladdin is actually from a book called "The Blue Fairy Book", and is included with the rest of the tales just because it is so good. But I don't know anything further - anyone else up on this? Graft 23:39, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, but the whole text of Andrew Lang) Blue Fairy Book, including the selections from Arabian Nights, is on-line at http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/LanBlue.html Wetman 23:50, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The article of which this is the talk page notes that Aladdin is a late addition to the collection, but not that late: the earliest edition in which it is found predates The Blue Fairy Book by nearly two centuries. For that matter, the Burton edition also predates The Blue Fairy Book, although by an interval closer to two years than two hundred. --Paul A 06:48, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

"Shahrastini"

'...better-known in English as "Scheherazade" or "Shahrastini"' (italics mine). Really? I've never heard "Shahrastini" in my life. Unless someone can vouch for a well-known edition that uses this variant, this should be removed. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:42, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

easy reading but not bowdlerized

does there exist a version of English translation such that it is not censored in anyway but with more moden easy-reading style than Sir Burtons? Xah Lee 22:32, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

The answer is in the article, "a critical edition based on the 14th century Syrian manuscript in the Bibliotheque Nationale, compiled in Arabic by Muhsin Mahdi and rendered into English by Husain Haddawy, the most accurate and elegant of all to this date." OneGuy 03:59, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! I found it on amazon.com, and will check it out at library if i have a chance. I was reading Burton's version, fully enjoying it, and thought about translating it myself. Btw, if any are interested in Burton's version with interesting words or phrases highlighted as a way of studying English, here it is: http://xahlee.org/p/arabian_nights/an1.html Xah Lee 02:26, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

Violence Against women?

Err, Reading the book now, the amount of violence against women is incredible. One of the first stories, about a man who if he tells his wife the story will die, is resolved when the man decides to beat his wife with a Stick untill she stops nagging him, or dies. She stops nagging him, and they live happily ever after...

WTF!!! --195.7.55.146 15:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the book does contains some violence towards women, but there's also plenty dealt out to the men.

You seem to be implying that the book is sexist or misogynist in some way - this is absurd in a book in which women outwit men throughout. Sdrawkcab 17:10, 9 May 2005 (UTC)sdrawkcab

Thats because every second woman happens to be a Witch or a sorceress, it is very misogynist. Just re-reading a piece where a man is seduced by not one, not two but three women with a terrrbile Secret (Aside from that they happen to prostitutes) --Irishpunktom\^talk 13:21, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Accusations of misogyny (and racism) are not absurd at all, and I'd say the misogyny in 1001 Nights is extremely vicious. But does it matter, in the end? It did not detract from my pleasure in reading the book. 201.81.252.13 18:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Iran/Persia

In the historical context of this article, is it really appropriate to link "Persia" to Iran? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:41, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. But there isn't an explicit connection to Iran in the present article anyways, more should be added. – Kaveh ^(talk) 12:43, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but why is this appropriate? The use of the name "Iran" in English is entirely to refer to the modern nation-state. Our article Iran is entirely about that modern nation-state. Wouldn't Persian Empire be a more appropriate link? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:22, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

This is a very common misunderstanding. "Iran" is not only the modern nation-state. In fact, "Iran" is completely and exactly the same (and has always been the same) as the "Persian Empire". There has been no significant change to the status of the country or its status of being an empire, the only thing that happened is that Iranians asked the people allover the world to use the same name for this country that has been always used by its people. It is relevant to stress this point in order to prevent the misunderstanding that Iran is a new country merely standing in the same place where the Persian Empire once was (Such as Iraq or Turkey, for example). Iran IS the Persian Empire. In fact, until the 1979 revolution the official name of the country was the Empire of Iran, and the government was called the imperial government of Iran. The king (Shah) had the status of an emperor, which is why he was addressed with the title "Imperial Majesty", and not only Majesty. Even today the essence of the government has to a large extent remained the same. I think it is important to stress these seemingly insignificant but important details.

There has been no significant change to the status of the country or its status of being an empire

That is the utterly most disturbing and ignorant claims I’ve ever heard. The answer to the question is YES, there have been significant changes in the geography of Iran for the past 200-150 years. Most of the States in the Caucasus and Former USSR states in Central Asia were part of the Persian Empire during the Qâjârs- In case you wouldn’t know, the Qâjârs were another Iranian royalties (before the Pahlavis) and after the fall of the Qâjârs and the crowning of Rezâ Shâh, The Persian Empire/Iran became what we know today. And yes it is also wrong to connect the term “Iran” for 1001 nights, simply because parts of Turkmenistan, Mongolia, and other non-Iranian states were officially under Persian ruling even in the late 1800.

It is important to note that the Persian Empire was far larger than the current "Islamic Republic of Iran" and, indeed, it's establishment was under many Zoroastrian kings. The 44 years between 1935 when the country name was changed to Iran and the revolution in 1979 are short in relative history, hence people associate Iran with the current "Islamic Republic" and Persia to that of the "Persian Empire". Hence, you will hear many Zoroastrians not referring to themselves as Iranian but Persian (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury#Ethnicity) even though the term Iran can be traced back to the Zoroastrian Avesta (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Etymology) and even the term Parsi refers to a Persian (not Iranian) origin (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi).

The Book of One Thousand and One Nights

The Book of One Thousand and One Nights is an Arabic Literature master piece, which combined Folk Stories from many countries, including persia. It should not be confused with the persian "Hazar Afsanah" (A Thousand Legends), which is apart from the frame-story of Shahrazad totally different!!

So tell us how the name Shahrzad and Shahryar are Arabic. Also tell us how Arabian people had big cities before Islam, they used to live in small town-as Mecca was the biggest city- and in "tribes" so how it could be Arabic if their name is Shahrzad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006.

Shahrzad

I may be completely wrong, but I don't think it is correct to say that Shahrzad means "born in the city". Considering the alternate ways of pronouncing the word "Shahrazad" or "Scheherazade" it seems that the word is a simplified version of Shahr+Azad or Shahr+Azade, which would mean the libertarian, or liberator (Azade) of the city. Also, "Shahr" in older persian usually means country, or the whole nation, not simply "the city". I think this meaning would also be much more consistent with the role her character has in the story. I'm looking forward to read your opinions about this. (anon 19 July 2005)

I believe that you are correct because the writer put both Shahryar and Shahrzad that both contains shar-which means city- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006.

1001 nights has Persian roots

The name of the storyteller is Shahrzad which is a pure Persian name. I have heard from some Professors of Persian literature that 1001 nights originates from 1000 Afsane (1000 Legends). It is also noteworthy that the name of the city which many of the stories take place in (Baghdad) is Persian. (anon 8 Aug 2005)

Baghdad was the capital of the Islamic world for a significant time, Baghdad is where the Caliphate ruled from after Damascus, I think you are stretching it a wee bit. --Irishpunktom\^talk 17:37, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

It helps to check Wikipedia itself as to the origins of Baghdad. You will see that there is no "stretching it" and the origins of it is Persian. (Babak October 11, 2005)

"Medieval"

The article states that the stories are "a piece of medieval Middle-Eastern literature". But then it says that they were compiled in the 9th century. So which is it?

Jonatan 20:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

• Some people consider the Middle Ages to begin after the fall of the Western Roman Empire; by that standard, this would be medieval. The term "Dark Ages" certainly does not apply to Persia, though it would reasonably apply to Europe at this time. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Abbasid or Arab

Which should it be? the Abbasid Caliph Harun al-Rashid or the Arab Caliph Harun al-Rashid?

Philip Stevens 12:41, 22 October 2005.

How about both? Yuber^(talk) 12:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

It is an Arabic and also an Abbasid Caliph. It doesn't matter what you say. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006.

Prince of Persia?

Why is the Prince of Persia linked here, does it have anything to do with the Nights? Philip Stevens 15:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

It is Persian

The story is completely Persian because of the names and also it was the Arabic version of 1000 myths or Hezar Afsaneh which was completely Persian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006.

Yes I also believe that this is Persian and Arabs want to be unfair to us. Iranians have to prove their identity to the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maziar fayaz (talk • contribs) 20 Jan 2006.

Indian Roots

I just listened to this podcast about the Abbasid Caliphs (MP3), where they claim the origin of the stories is actually India. It is claimed that the stories travelled from India to Persia. 20:40 in the podcast. Jacoplane 20:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I think most scolars agree that it has indian roots, but the majority of the stories were added in two periods in the middle east. The fist bunch of new additions often contained magic and mythological creatures. The other bunch was added in Baghdad and the more urban style made most of the added stories relativley realistic. Then various stories were added and removed. Many of the more ertotic stories are for instance of egyptian origin. // Liftarn

According to most scholars, many if not most of the stories in the Nights have origins in ancient Indian story collections such as the Panchatantra and the Jataka. The others are of Persian and Arabic origin. Overall, I see it as an Persian-Indian-Arabic work. The basic framework, however, is Persian. Afghan Historian 20:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

As I wrote a bit down on this page there are three layers. There are also other influences liek Jewish[2] and different versions also contain different stories so they may for inctance include stories from Egypt too. // Liftarn

Possible Plagiarism: `1001 Nights` is A Mere Translation of the Persian Masterpiece `1000 Myths`

How unfortunate that a story that begins with, “This is a story about a Persian (Iranian) King who lived during the Persian Sassanid dynasty...... ”, and a story whose main characters at the nucleus of the story are ALL Persian, with pure--original Persian names like Shahrzad, is being represented to the world as `Arabian Nights`. It is very much possible that `the Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor` chapters in the book were inspired by some Indian-Chinese mirabilia; however, there is nothing wrong with that, such that the Persian author who penned this masterpiece was simply inspired by them. Wasn’t Shakespeare inspired by some old Jewish, European, and even Oriental folktales? That is what authors do; they get inspired, and then they use their imagination. Yet, what is important to realize is that the written [proof] indicates where the story is from, and it is useless to try and go beyond the physical evidence, i.e. the facts. And, all the evidence proves this was an Old Persian folktale. Nevertheless, 1000 years ago there were no plagiarism, or copyright laws, because if there were, this Persian body of work would have rightly been called, `The Persian Nights`.

About Baghdad: Baghdad is where Babylon used to be, and back then it was a province of the Persian Achaemenid Dynasty, and Ctesiphon in Babylon was the capital of two enormous Persian Empires; namely the Parthian and the Sassanids. Later-on, Arabs move in the area, when the Persian `Sassanid Dynasty` fail. The city Baghdad was designed and built by a Persian Jew--Mushallah, and the name is Persian, meaning, Bagh=garden, and dad or daad=gave. It is mind boggling that over 90 percent of Islamic scientists, tales like 1001 Nights, even architectural designs, poetry, paintings, you name it, were the contribution of Persian poets, scientists etc., yet Arabs take credit for it. Zmmz 04:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

-- "back then" that area was a province of Babylon. Babylon is not Persian. Later Persians moved to the area from the east. It is not suprising to see some "persians" again trying to "own" everything middle-eastern. -Ur

Verifications?

From Borges, The Garden of Froking Paths:

I remembered too that night which is at the middle of the Thousand and One Nights when Scheherazade (through a magical oversight of the copyist) begins to relate word for word the story of the Thousand and One Nights, establishing the risk of coming once again to the night when she must repeat it, and thus to infinity.

Can anyone verify whether this actually happens? (Or does happen in some well-known erroneous version?) This was one of Borges's fictional works, so it's hard to say whether he's making up his references.

Also, how many stories are there? It isn't exactly 1001, as I understand. How many is it? Or are the interconnections too vague to make an exact count possible? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.142.21.64 (talk • contribs) 12 Feb 2006.

Inline citations

Some of the facts in the article, while plausible, are a little surprising. Would inline citations be practical in this article? Andjam 12:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I recommend cite.php over inline citations, but something like that, sure. - Jmabel | Talk 01:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

One of my first encounters with the book was ascribed to Edgar Allen Poe, yet I see nothing here about him, but I had been under the impression that he had had a hand in at least some western versions of the myths. I have encountered much confusion (including my own) as to the origins of the story---Dragonwlkr 13:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Is this what you are referring to? The Thousand-and-Second Tale of Scheherazade Philip Stevens 13:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Only Translations Available?

I admit I haven't looked as extensively as I should have, but offhand I don't see links to anything that's not a translation. (I am making an assumption that there is an original language for this, in Arabic...or Persian...or something that's not written in the letters I'm typing at the moment. I've seen one site that has a picture of two pages in Arabic script, but that appears to be it.) Given I'm studying Arabic, I would love to find a site that has the stories in the original language (if one exists). And for those who dislike translations as a rule, it would be nice to have easy access to a good untranslated copy. Anyone know where one might exist? Kilyle 22:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Arabic WikiSource

http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%84%D9%81_%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9_%D9%88%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9

Here you can find the tales in arabic (the original tales) but also if you are studying Arabic I think that the tales text is not easy.

There are many collections of tales in Persian and Arabic, and you'll find many with similarities. But you won't find exactly the set translated by Antoine Galland in the eighteenth century, which we know as The Book of One Thousand and One Nights. --Wetman 06:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

What is a "literary epic" ?)

No, I'm afraid you're wrong. The correct question was "What is a collection of tales within a framing device." What was your wager? --Wetman 07:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

What is the Indian name?

• Does anyone know the Indian name of 1001 nights? I think it shuld be added along with the Arabic and Persian names.

I don't think it ever was compiled (or it may have been, but it haven't survived), but it was spread westward as oraly transmitted folktales. Some indian compilations include Pañcatantra and Kathāsaritsāgara. The 1001 Nights has several layers and you can see three distinct types of stories. First there is the stories of inidan origin with creatures like djinns (according to some people it may come from Pañcatantra[3]). Then some persian folk tales were added (I don't have my reference handy, but I think this includes stories like Ali Baba and Sinbad). The third major layer was added in Baghdad. This layer contains no or very little supernatural creaturs, magic and such. Examples are the story of the little judge (or was it caliph?). // Liftarn

• I don't think Ali Baba was a Persian folk tale (the name is Arabic and was not used in Persia before Islam), and there is no way djinns could have Indian roots! The Jinns (i.e. Genies) are supernatural beings in ancient Arabian Mythology, so they must have Arabian roots.

OK, as I said I don't have my reference book handy, but there are indeed three different layers of stories in the collection. // Liftarn

Calender

What is a "Calender" ?

I have a (grossly overabridged) version that contains several stories about Three "Calenders" - each blind in one eye who were sons of kings.

Unfortunately, the modern Wikipedia entry under calender is about a machine involved in the paper industry...

It's the admittedly misleading transliteration of the Persian word for a Sufi mystic. There's an article about them on Wikipedia under the title of "Qalandar." Haddawy refers to them as dervishes with a footnote describing them as, "Members of a Muslim order of mendicant monks, vowed to a life of poverty." (Haddawy 1990:76) Mjannin 23:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Improving the Article

I think something more should be said about the textual and editorial history of the Nights. For instance, it's my understanding that most modern translations are based on one of five 19th-century editions, refered to by their place of publication: Calcutta I), Bulaq / Cairo I (1835), Calcutta II), Breslau) and Bulaq II. The Burton translation is a free rendering of Calcutta II, and I think Mardras translated Bulaq I. Maybe a seperate section should be added to the article dealing with this kind of information, as well as a list of various translations. Kmbush40 07:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

If you have something solid and citable on this, this would be an excellent addition. - Jmabel | Talk 20:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Burton's translation and the rare book market

Good article. How much would Burton's edition be worth on the rare book market? In 1998 a Lebanese friend of mine, and a lover of rare books, found the complerte set of Burton's rtanslation for sale in Baghdad in the Bookseller's Market (Mutannabi Street), for $200. It had a bookplate from the British Council - in fact the entire library was for sale there on the footpath. PiCo 02:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Apparently nearly US$3000 in very good condition. In general, Abe Books is a great place to answer this sort of question. If it's English-language and on the market at all, there is about an 80% chance of finding it on that one site. - Jmabel | Talk 04:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Alasnam

There is an orphan article Alasnam that looks like it should be linked to from this article. I do not have the knowledge of this subject to included it, can someone here do it? Jeepday 14:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is badly written and deals with a subject of extremely minor importance (or of extreme unimportance). I don't think it's worth linking. PiCo 05:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks PiCo, I will make appropriate notations on that article. This section can be deleted in a week or so Jeepday 13:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

We generally keep them, and eventually archive them. It might lead someone to give that article some attention. - Jmabel | Talk 03:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Odd inclusion

Why is there a mention of a musical piece called La Noche de las Noches? The title (which means "the night of nights") doesn't suggest any obvious connection. - Jmabel | Talk 02:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This book is Persian

This book is Persian. For any Arab who doesn't understand, just read it once and you'll see that the core history is in Sassanid Persian Empire. The stories were collected by Persians and written in a single book. Of course, after all those uncivilized Arabs burning Persian and Egyptian book (in the Alexandria Library for example) that many original versions of books will be lost. --Arad 23:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

But it is a collection of Persian, Arabic, and Indian stories. The origin of each story can be determined by looking at the setting, what creatures it contains and if it contains magic or not. // Liftarn

Yes, indeed they were collected from all over Asia, but the person who wrote the all in one book called 1001 Nights and edited them and used different name (Iranian name obviously) was in fact Persian. --Arad 00:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Can u give an evidence about " Of course, after all those uncivilized Arabs burning Persian and Egyptian book (in the Alexandria Library for example) that many original versions of books will be lost. " It is well-known when Alexandria Library destroyed!!!!!!. Also you should know that old Persian is different than Middle Persian and modern Persian, and around 30% of the Persian language vocabularies were brought from Arabic. Educate your self then write. And stop being racist. Aziz1005 20:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

My dear Arab. If you had a bit of education you could see that: In 642, when Arabs attacked, "The library and its contents were destroyed in 642 during the war. The Lighthouse was destroyed by earthquakes in the 14th century, and by 1700 the city was just a small town among the ruins." (from Wikipedia itself). Also, indeed after that bloody conquest of Arabs, there is going to be many words from Arabic into Persian. And please stay away from subjects you don't know. And don't judge people when you have no idea. --Arad 00:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Arabic or Persian?

Now I assume that there is a strong Iranian presence here, and that's why people are changing the article to make it say this book is Persian. This is the only explanation I can think of, there being no factual evidence offered.

To those people I say: please stop spreading mis-information. If you have a good argument, then present it here on the talk page, else don't change the page to reflect your own prejudices.

As far as the actual 'case' goes, all we can say is that the book is a collection of stories, and this collection has grown over several centuries. It is a tenable position that some of the oldest come from Persia, India, or other places, but there is little evidence to support this thesis. In fact, some of the more typically 'foreign' names in the book may have been invented by Arab bards just for that purpose: to sound foreign and imposing.

IMHO, once the first stories were written in arabic, they formed a snowball effect, and the book continued to change until it has acquired its most recent form, sometime in the 18th or 19th century after the invention of printing came to the Arab World. As such, the core and the meat of the book is defintely Arab, even if we accept the idea that it's 'nucleus' is not.

Now let me add that this isn't a matter of national pride, it is a matter of historical accuracy. As such, one also must recognize that the book's fame comes from its reputation in non-arab countries (especially the west) much more so than it's reputation in the Arab World. This is also the case with the 'Rubaiiyat of Omar Khayyam' and to a lesser extent with the Chinese "Journey to the West'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.153.128.12 (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

Note: This article is literally littered with the word 'Persian'. Will you stop that?

Please log in. Also stop this nonsense. The fame of 1001 Nights was far more heard in Iran than in West. for centuries Iranians told these stories. Same for Khayyam. And Persia is a NON-Arab country and it not a part of your so called arab World. Also, you're humble opinion is also wrong. This book was first written in Persian (just spend some time reading it and you'll see it starts in the Sassanid Persian Empire. And it wasn't a book which got added up. It was a collection of stories, from the beginning, written by a Persian, which wrote many folk and other stories in a single book. The stories and originally from all over the Asia, but it was written by a Persian.

Note: This article is literally littered with the word 'Arab'. Will you stop that? --Arad 02:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

----Dear Arad :

I found in some website that the original version of 1000 nights and night is in (The oriental institution)not sure about the translation, in Chicago University and it is in Arabic from the 9th century this is the article in Arabic if u can read the source because I am not good at translating or writing in English قطعة قديمة جدا تعتبر الأقدم في العالم حتى اليوم، موجودة في المعهد الشرقي بجامعة شيكاغو ترقى الى القرن الثالث للهجرة، راجع (كوركيس عواد : المخطوطات العربية في الدور الأمريكية ص 34 الرقم3) وللدكتورة نبيهة عبود دراسة مفصلة عن هذه القطعة بعنوان:Abbott(Nabia) A Ninth Century Fragment of (Thousand and one Nights), Journal Eastern Studies , Vol, VIII, 1949, PP 129-164.

And remember, I agree with u that there is some Persian influence but this does not mean the tale is completely Persian.....There are a lot of stories from Arabic heritage; Basra, Baghdad and Damascus were mentioned in the stories. I have written there it is an Arab-Indo-Persian tale and u deleted that and wrote Persian only.....Why? Aziz1005 22:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, i see your point. I never said the book's stories are all Persian. Of course they all come from around Asia and some maybe from Africa. But I said the book was written by a Persian. And also, I never deleted the Arab-Indo-Persian. If I did, I'm sorry, but I think it was another user. But thank you for the research you did. Have a nice day --Arad 22:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The Synopsis repeats the Intro. Merge?

The first section and the Synopsis are almost identical. They both relate the set-up for the stories as well as mentioning the most common characters and well-known tales. Could they be merged? Ninquerinquar 22:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Hazār Afsāneh

The book "1001 Nights" is based on an older, Pahlavi-Persian work known as "Hazār Afsāneh" ("1000 Myths"), a collection of ancient Iranian and Indian folk tales. The work was mentioned by al-Tabari and others, yet, for some reason it is not mentioned in this articles. Someone should add a paragraph or two about this work into the article, since the frame story of the modern "1001 Nights" is certainly copied from "Hazār Afsāneh". Other stories, mostly of Egyptian and Syrian origin, were added later. While "1001 Nights" was written in Arabic, it is important to mention that the origins of the work are Non-Arabic, and go back to ancient Persia and India, as well as to ancient Egypt and ancient China. --82.83.135.55 11:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Arabian Nights.jpg

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Spelling of Scheherazade

In my opinion, and according to my reading of Wikipedia's naming conventions, the encyclopedia should use the most common spelling in English, which is overwhelmingly "Scheherazade". There is a poll about this at Talk:Shahrazad#Requested move. –Taranah 17:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I am responding to the ongoing spelling changes of Scheherazade (or Shahrazad). The spelling issue is complicated, but I still lean toward using the most common spelling in this article. There is a good argument that "Shahrazad" is a better transliteration, but it is not as easily recognized. Once again, see the ongoing discussion at Talk:Scheherazade. –Taranah 05:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

About the Shahrazad cartoon's music

Hi, I wondered whether anyone knows about the cartoon's music that played in the beginning in the cartoon. I would be grateful if anybody writes its song's name or its composer. Thank-you. Happy editing, --Bahar (Spring in Turkish) ✍ 09:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Book of One Thousand and One Nights → One Thousand and One Nights — Allow the Nights go by many names, in English 'One Thousand and One Nights' is one of the best known and the most faithful to the original Arabic name ('A Thousand Nights and a Night'). Also, to call the Nights a book is misleading as they were not written down for many centuries. —Philip Stevens 16:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Strong Oppose - This book is much better known in English by its current name. Reginmund 01:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. — AjaxSmack 05:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support Not only is it not better known without "The Book of", the current name does not even appear to be the exact title of any English translation. Is Reginmund thinking of Burton's "Book of the thousand nights and a night"? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
• No, he isn't. Reginmund 00:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support, per PMAnderson. Hera1187 06:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Comment, can you cite this assertion? --Philip Stevens 07:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Compare the internal links. Reginmund 14:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• The number of internal links on Wikipedia is not a good indicator of which name is the best known in English as most editors try to avoid redirects. A Google search shows that there are five times as many results for "One Thousand and One Nights" as for "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights". --Philip Stevens 14:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• That is because the ommissions of the appendage will include the titles with "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights" and others that don't. That's less of a good indicator. Reginmund 06:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• That's a good point, however I subtracted the result of the second and first search and "One Thousand and One Nights" had five times as many hit as "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights". --Philip Stevens 07:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• I don't believe you. Google gives me 1,170 for One Thousand and One Nights[4] and 12,200 for "the Book of One Thousand and One Nights"[5]. Reginmund 00:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't advocate using Google to decide these things but, if you choose to do so, you need to refine the search better. Your searches above were for One Thousand and One Nights -the -Book -of and "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights" but, without quotes around "the Book of," all instances of pages with any of those individual words anywhere in the text would have been eliminated. (E.g., A site with the sentence, "One Thousand and One Nights" is a book of great renown," would be eliminated because "book" and "of" appeared.) Also, excluding Wikipedia and mirrors from the results is a good idea. Try "One Thousand and One Nights" -"The Book of" -Wikipedia versus "The Book of One Thousand and One Nights" -Wikipedia instead and you get very different results (54,600 vs. 4,530). — AjaxSmack 03:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
• That search is even more ambiguous. If you skim the search 9/10 are completely irrelevant to the Arabian Nights. Most of the hits are about manga and artwork. Reginmund 16:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from The Book of One Thousand and One Nights to One Thousand and One Nights as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 11:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

1001 Nights

I want to know who says most of the stories are arabic!? yes, There are some Indian stories and A FEW Arabic stories. I want to answer the people who says It`s an Arabic story. Why do all the main characters of the Arabic stories have Iranian names(whithout any changes)? It`s very strange that names of the main characters of local stories be foreign. We know in many years ago each name that entered in Arabic language had been changed alot. For instance, Khosrow (Persia=خسرو) became Kasra (Arabic=کسری), Pirooz (Persian=پیروز) became Firooz (Arabic=فیروز) , Kwaz (Persian=کواذ) became Ghobad (Arabic=قباد) and too many other names.Sandbad(means A wind that comes from Sand river), Shahrzad, Shahryar and etc. But there are many names like Sandbad, Shahryar, Shahrzad are existed in Arabic (without any changes). 1001 Nights story spreaded in Arabic countries, because of its popularity and its names became common without being Arabicized. If you want to know about the oldest version of 1001 Nights story, apparently you can not find it in Persian, since Arabs burnt any books that were written in Persian to destroy Iranian culture and language in Ummayad dynasty, According to Biruni's From The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries, Because of this nowadays there are lots of Arabic word in Persian, But Arabic words do not contain 30% of Persian language. That`s one of reasons why there are many ethnic problems between Iranians and Arabs. About Hezar Afsaneh and its relation with 1001 Nights has been discussed in this page and there is no need to talk about it anymore. 1001 Nights has range stories not only from Hezar Afsaneh and Iranian stories but also from Indian stories and A FEW Arabic stories. Why did most of stories of 1001 Nights occure in Iraq and Baghdad(nowaday)? It has a lot of reasons: 1.Iraq had always been in Iranian dynasties(Achamenid, Parthian, Sassanid, Seljuk, Safavid and etc.). 2.Iraq in Arabic pronunciation is Aragh(عراق). Aragh is Arabic form of an Iranian name, Arak(اراک) means related to Aryans. Baghdad (Arabic=بغداد) is also a Persian name and its real pronunciation is Bagdad (Persian=بگداد). BAG in middle and ancient Persian means God and DAD means blessing. You`d better know 90% of the names of Iraq`s cities are Persian. 3.Another point is Iranian scientific and literature atmosphere of Iraq and its cities in those times, Although there were lots of anti–iranianism rules. You can investigate about how Gundishapour university was ruined by Umar and how it was founded again in Iraq by Iranian teachers of Gundishapour university. The existing of Iranian stories in 1001 Nights like Sandbad is another reason to confess this story is an Iranian story before it be Arabic or Indian. But unfortunately Arabs are trying to adopt them and introduce them as an Arabic story like many other things. Roudaki Iranian poet versed the stories of Snadbad that its name is Sandbad Nameh. Sandbad was a real Iranian person who lived in Siraf court, his birth place in Iran. An interesting point is that there is no distinctive or indistinctive person in Arab`s history that was named Sandbad. I`ve got something else to say, Kellile Va Demneh is an Indian story. At first it had only five stories, But when it was translated into Persian by Borzouye In Sassanid era. Borzouye added too many stories in his translation. And Iranians have never said ``that is an Iranian story``. I mentioned it for people who think most of the stories of 1001 Nights are Arabic. Anyway, if they be right, we should not say it`s an Arabic story. After all, we can not deny most of the stories of 1001 Nights are Iranian.

Sorry, because of my broken English. Because I`m 14-year-old boy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.154.36.6 (talk) 16:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Arabian nights & nothing else

The Arabian "1001" nights has its basis in Baghdad that was established by the Abbasid leader Abu-Jaffar Al-Mansour & the whole story flourished under Harun Al-Rashids time which was considered as the golden time for the Abbasid empire....& it describes Arabic culture mixed with stories collected from all parts that where under the rule of Arabs including "nowdays Iran" & the reason it has names from other cultures is because the Abbasid/Arabic Empire was multicultural & multinational & widely spread again under the rule of Arabs, no one can deny that!!!....it has always been known throughout the world as this & we're not gonna change history now because some people "persians" are racist against Arabs & I wonder why so much persian mentioned....maby from now one we should mention Arabic beside every name given to some one from persia then all the Iranian related articles will be full of Arabic but ofcourse persians ignore that...havn't you people noticed the urge of persians in all Arabic-related articles to manipulate everything Arabic & change it to something else???193.6.158.33 10:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Persian Hijack!!

What is the basis for the recent attempt to systematically expunge all reference to "Arabian" from the article and replace it with "Persian"? If there is actually a good case for this it should be brought up in discussion. If it is simply that the collection must be Persian because the framing story is set in Persia - then on the same grounds Aladdin must be a Chinese tale, since it is set there. This is palable nonsense of course. In any case the collection is almost universally known as "The Arabian Nights" in English, so that even if the rest of the "Persian Hijack" eventually makes it this will have to stand. Soundofmusicals 14:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Be careful not to make racist comments! Aside from 1001 nights, most of the contributions of Persians to science, music and philosophy etc are labeled in the west under names other than persian. Obviously persians are not those who are stealing works of others! Ignorance of orientalists (and generally people of the west) about middle east is the main reason behind all these confusions. The original name of the collection in both Persian and Arabic languages are "1000 tales" or "1000 nights" no reference to "Persian" or "Arabic". Labeling it as "Arabian nights" was the invention of some translators. The connection of the collection to Persia/Persian culture is much stronger than what you have noticed. The collection is considered a multi cultural work. Calling it exclusively "Arabian" is not fair either. As far as I can tell based on direct evidences: there was a Persian collection of Asian/Indian/African stories under the name "1000 tales". It was translated to Arabic under the same name and later to other languages. And possibly some translators may have added or deleted some pieces. The collection evolved until today. Sangak ^Talk 16:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The "Persian hijack" refers to the article, not the 1001 Nights themselves. Please read this before you accuse people of racism! The introduction mentions the varied sources, including Persian, Indian, Arab, Egyptian, Classical Greek etc. etc. in the tales. It is well known that the traditional English language name for the collection (The Arabian Nights) is not accurate, but it remains the name that most English speaking people know the collection as - probably because it first appeared in English as translated from the Arabic. All the same, we know that this is not the original name - which is why the article's main heading is under 1001 nights. What the editor did was go right through the whole article and replace "Arab" or "Arabic" or "Arabian" with "Persian". This needed to be reverted, obviously, and what the phrase "Persian Hijack" above referred to. Soundofmusicals 08:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Persian/Arabian balance

It may be that the article as it stands (if that is the right word in the current flurry of drastic editing!!) has an "anti-Persian" bias. In order to avoid undesirable POV (Point of View) this needs to be discussed rationally and specifically. The heading "Perisna Hijack" for the above section simply referred to a specific "mass edit" that changed all mention of "Arab" to "Persian" - not to any suggestion that this collection does not have a strong specifically Persian element (along, incidentally, with an Arabic one!).

Please air complaints about the article here - to establish a consensus about the best form for the article - rather than getting emotional and thrashing about like a trapped gazelle! This is an on-line encyclopedia, not an ethnic competition site. Soundofmusicals 00:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no dispute for the name Arabian Nights

Well there is no name dispute that it has always been known throughout history as Arabian Nights & the majority or people knowing about it, also know it as the Arabian Nights. But the increased persian influence which I think is very unfair compared to other Arabic-realted issues that disregard Arabic influence. An example is that next to Shahryar & Schehrazade it says that its Persian name, well how many Persian realted issues have Arabic names & it is not mentioned that it is Arabic eg. Ibn Sina(Avicenna), Al-Ghazali,Abd Al-Rahman Al Sufi,Ibn Abi Sadiq,Omar Al-Khayyam,Muhammad Ibn Musa Al-Khawarizmi, Jafar Muhammad ibn Musa ibn Shakir,Abu Nasr Muhammad ibn al-Farakh al-Farabi and HUNDREDS others. IF we mention persian name origin next to the names in this article then we should mention the Arabic name origin in ALL other articles, which I think persians will not agree upon. So it should be removed from this artilce or we should add to ALL other articles.

This was just one example of things NOT being FAIR in Wikipedia nowdays & many things are being modifyied without a guard. Best regards193.6.158.33 (talk) 19:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)