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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 24.84.39.148 (talk) at 07:46, 14 January 2008 (→‎Dutch Colonial Possessions Picture). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Correct naming

On Google Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie gets more hits than Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie which is correct? Mintguy

The official name is Geoctroyeerde Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie. The name used on printed shares was Oost-Indisch Compagnie with the name of the Chamber.

Total revenue and earnings estimates for the company's history?

Despite Google's reliability, I as a Dutch person, was always taught at school that it was the Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie.

At the time there was no official spelling; several forms were used. Of course "Oostindische" conforms to the present prescripts.

MWAK--84.27.81.59 16:20, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Overromanticising

I find the the article is a bit too romantic towards the VOC. There was no "trading" done in Indonesia. When you trade, you take something and give in return. The VOC plunderd Indonesia and enslaved the people. No mention is made of this. Of course, they rarely teach this in Dutch schools.

"No mention is made of this. Of course, they rarely teach this in Dutch schools." oh -please-, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Please don't hate us out of ignorance.
Since when do we care whether someone hates us? That's very unDutch. Yuk. For those who feel a need to hate us out of knowledge: as a historian I can affirm that the whole system of the VOC was based on the structural perpretation of acts that both the valuesystem of today as of those days would describe as "extortion" and "mass murder". However they do teach this at Dutch schools. Quite a lot even. Sanctimoniously lamenting the past, whilst turning a blind eye at the present wrongdoings, I fear :0S

MWAK--84.27.81.59 16:20, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Seeing as they wound up becoming penniless Muslims, seems to be they were better off as the bitches of the Dutch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.237.133 (talk) 23:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The novel Dune, inspired by the exploits of the V.O.C.

Thta´s interesting, but in what way are those related? there is nothing about this on neither article. We need more information to confirm this...--Alexandre Van de Sande 22:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A great story drive in Dune is monopolies and resources, and how a faction/company controls it. Also, how these monopolies are actually 'awarded' to a certain faction features in Dune as well. Bertus 11:18, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting theory, but are there any articles written expressing this point of view? Timhud 04:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction

"The Chamber of Rotterdam’s raise of capital did not run so smoothly. They brought in f. 173.000 which satisfied by far, the expectations. A considerable part was originating from inhabitants of Dordrecht."

If the expectations were satisfied, how the the raise of capital not run smoothly? Dstarisbeastin 19:20, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Improvement drive

A related topic, spice trade, is currently nominated on WP:IDRIVE. Support or comment on the nomination there if you are interested.--Fenice 09:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

History of Globalization

I would like to extend my appreciation to you for this page. Despite the negative comments by others (cough) the VOC and the Netherlands itself stand as the most prolific mercantile empire before the British. Not to mention the first modern economy. Please feel free to contribute to History of Globalization. Thanks

~Andy

Andy, I agree with you, but please keep in mind the comments of John Adams, who tried (and failed) to get Dutch funding for the young "United States" in Amsterdam in 1781. He said (and I quote from a letter he wrote to his wife Abigail from Amsterdam dated May 22 1781):

"We are anxious to hear further of Green and Cornwallis. Tho Green lost the Field on 15 March, it seems Cornwallis must be in a critical situation. I know not what this People will do. I believe they will awake, after some time. Amsterdam, Harlem and Dort have represented the Necessity of an Alliance with America but when the rest will be of their Mind, I know not. If they neglect it, they and their Posterity will repent of it. The Trade will turn away from this Country to France and Spain if the Dutch act so unwise a Part, and indeed, according to every Appearance, this Country will dwindle away to nothing. Other Powers will draw away all its Commerce. By an early Treaty with America and active Exertions they might save it: but they seem little disposed as yet. My dear Nabby and Tommy how do they do? Our Parents, our Brothers, sisters and all Friends how are they? If I could get back again I would never more leave that Country, let who would beg, scold, or threaten. As to Peace, mark my Words, the English will never make it with Us, while they have a ship or a Regiment in America. If any one asks whether there is like to be Peace, ask in return, whether G. Washington has taken New York, Green Cornwallis and Charlestown, and Nelson Arnold and Portsmouth? Rodney has lost most of his Statia Booty. De la Motte Piquet has taken it. The English East India Possessions seem to be going to wreck -- their Trade is torn to Pieces, but all is not enough. If Congress and the states execute their Resolution of cutting off all Communication and Commerce, directly and indirectly with America, this will affect them more than any Thing. But how the Authority can prevent British Manufactures from being imported from France, Holland, Brabant &c. Is the Question."

Adams eventually forced Dutch "recognition" of the US in 1782 (the bicentennial of which was celebrated with a commemorative stamp in 1982), but only succeeded in obtaining meagre funding from the Dutch in 1783. By the time he was done, he hated Holland and felt the country had damaged his health forever, complaining he had contracted 'Amsterdam fever'. The biggest loan the Dutch eventually made to the US was not negotiated by Adams, but by Jefferson, and enabled the Louisiana Purchase, not the war efforts. The Dutch were always big investors in land purchases (for obvious reasons).

Dutch Colonial Possessions Picture

Can anybody very whether the Netherlands owned Ireland as a colonial possession. The

File:NetherlandsEmpire2.png

says the netherlands did. But I can't remember that from history classes. When William the III of Orange was King of England he sent his army to Ireland, but the image does not include all English colonial possession around 1700. If no-one reacts I'll upload the image that is on Dutch_colonial_empire

.

user:C_mon January 18, 2006

Haha, no, Ireland was never a Dutch colony. Wikipedia strikes again.... 87.210.35.24 20:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


same thing goes for Guangzhou (Canton) which is coloured pale green on the map. (It's the little dot in mainland China. By the time VOC is around, Canton is already a big town with population close to 1 million. I have never heard of Dutch processing Guangzhou, and I doubt it was possible for them to colonize a city that size. Oscar Jan 13, 2008

Batavia masscare 1740

From 1720 on the sugar market slowly collapsed. The European markets became satisfied; moreover the competition from Brazil (which was cheaper) became bigger. Dozens of Chinese sugar tradesmen went bankrupt and with them the koelies. This way great unemployment arose and this almost automatically led to revengeful gangs of koelies who, without money or food, saw no other way out. Evidently nothing was done by Batavia to lessen the problems because that way their own corrupt practises would be discovered.

There happened in 9 0ctober 1974, this kill more 5,000- 10,000 victim fell during three day masscare.[1][2]Daimond 13:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't get me wrong, I understand something happened in 1740 that maybe worth mentioning. But this needs much better writing before inclusion in the article; and much better references (especially the Website is highly antiDutch). Outright copying from awebsite is copyright violation even if referenced to that webstie so that should be avoided (anyway the text on the website is badly written as well - slow collapse??? - contradictio in terminis). Furhtermore there is definitive antiDutch pov in this section which needs to be neutralised (the weblink has this same pov; while the book referred to is not in English or Dutch so hard for me to judge on quality - so still prefer better refs. Note also that the references tab has not yet been used in this article, soyour refs don't show in the back). I tried to rewrite - How about something like this (but please come up with good references before posting):
From 1720 on the market for sugar from Indonesia declined as the competition from cheap sugar from Brazil increased and European markets became saturated. Dozens of Chinese sugar traders went bankrupt which lead to massive unemployment; which in turn lead to gangs of unemployed coolies. The Dutch government in Batavia did not adequately respond to these problems. In 1740, rumours of deportation of the gangs from the Batavia area lead to widespread rioting. The Dutch military reaction got out of hand and a large number of innocent Chinese were killed. This incident was deemed sufficiently serious for the board of the VOC to start an official investigation into the Government of the Dutch East Indies for the first time in its history. Arnoutf 18:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is much better but still needs a little work. ie "got out of hand" is also more is a bit vague and commentary in style than pure statement of events. But, I'd say it's good fo the article, and it can be further "polished" from there. Nice work to both of you--Merbabu 01:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC).[reply]
I agree it is still a bit vague. I have no personal knowledge of these events so I try to do the best possible with what I could find, rather being vague than making unfounded claims. I'll put it in in a few days, and see where it goes. Arnoutf 10:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is the strength of Wikipedia. Two people have two different things to add (info & prose), on their own they can't do it, but with collaboration - voila! SOmething good comes out of it. I think the sources should be confirmed first, then we are right to go. --Merbabu 14:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I found a (fairly neutral) reference, which I added. I put (a slightly modified version) in the article. Arnoutf 22:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know there two side few from my side and other side so i add book reference, let them know there two version and scale the information about that by themself. Daimond 11:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not completely understand your point above. Problem with the book is that it is not in English; so English readers cannot use that information to judge the information; so I removed it again. Furhtermore I think there are not necessarily 2 sides: It is clear there was a horrible massacre plain enough from whatever perspective (to my shame I never heard of it, but I am convinced it is not a major issue in the Netherlands to deny it at this moment). Arnoutf 11:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So if I add reference this picture it's okay, soory if my english are bad. and i still few month in here. If you look carefulyy there a information about a canon aimed the big house in a row. that house of chinese kapitan, and looking from this picture you can figure why the river change the name become angke or red river, not only that few name has change according this ancident but the river name are the more clearly change until now, cause still bear that name after the ancident until now.Daimond 13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC) http://www.nationaalarchief.nl/amh/detail.aspx?page=dafb&lang=en&id=1897#tab0[reply]

I gather you are referring to the renaming of the river. I think we should carefully consider whether the renaming of a river after the massacre should be in the VOC article. I fully agree the atrocity/massacre is relevant for VOC history (that is why I put t in) but I do not think the actual renaming of the river is very relevant (that part is probably better for Batavia or Java articles). Arnoutf 14:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Joint stock

  • Dutch East India Company - founded 1602
  • British East India Company - founded 1600
    • Our article says - "the [British East India] Company was founded as The Company of Merchants of London Trading into the East Indies by a coterie of enterprising and influential businessmen, who obtained the Crown's charter for exclusive permission to trade in the East Indies for a period of fifteen years. The Company had 125 shareholders, and a capital of £72,000."
I am pretty convinced VOC was first. Perhaps in the British case something to do with the royal charter, or non-tradable stock???? Can someone sort this out in depth not my area of expertise, would n't know where to start looking. The joint stock article lists the VOC as being first and does not mention BEIC Arnoutf 16:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This and this and this suggest that the British East India Company was funded on a per-voyage basis until 1612, when it started to issue temporary stock, and only issued permanent joint stock from 1657 (presumably copying the VOC). -- ALoan (Talk) 17:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at Multinational corporation the debate is between VOC and Knights Templar for first multinational... So no go for BEIC there either Arnoutf 17:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you go and do the tour of Lloyd's of London they will show you their treasures room, which shows the oldest check in existance and their list of governors. The writer of the oldest check and the first 15 or so governors were Dutchmen. The oldest joint-stock company was in fact the original team efforts of dukes and farmers in Holland to build dikes. These cooperative efforts led to the first finance projects for building ships that made shipping endeavors like the British and Dutch East India Companies possible. From Amsterdam it was (and still is) a short days sail to London. Jane 10:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

British East Indies Companie rather than VOC in Pirates of Caribb

According to me Pirates of the Carribean Dead man's chest refers to the British East Indies company rather than the Dutch one. The inclusion of the Flying Dutchman may have given cause for the confusion I think. Arnoutf 07:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish East India company?

Can the company be called the jewish east india company instead of the dutch since jewish people mostly owned it?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.186.1.30 (talk)

No, we can't even if that is true. Wikipedia just reports on the actual name, the official name, and the most common name. We don't just make up stuff even if it might seem reasonable. Merbabu 01:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Date of dissolution

Was the dissolution of the company in 1798 or 1800? The article says 1800, but [1] claims that is occured in 1798. Several other websites also claim it to be in 1798, but the United Nations UNESCO page for the company, [2] lists the company as being liquidated in 1795 D Morlo 08:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revisiting format of text and images

I was perhaps overly bold in re-formatting this article; but this is a work in progress. If anyone else views this formatting differently, I'd expect to see it changed -- no problem, no worries.

There is something to be considered beyond mere matters of visual preference: How best to let the array of images tell a story in themselves, supporting the body of the text across the full span of the entire article. This won't be easy, of course; but it's worth considering. Do you see my point?

How best to convey as much as possible in as clear a way as possible? --Ooperhoofd 15:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, Merbabu's recent edit is a clear improvement -- fine work, nicely done.
  • (1) The map at the top right conveys the geographic extent of the VOC and the image of a VOC-backed bond underscores the mercantile fucntion of this early multinational corporation. Then the eye is drawn to a consideration of the effects of VOC expansion in the context of one specific national history -- Indonesia. The graphic linkage tells a story which enhances the serial developments in the text.
  • (2) The initial image on the left -- a view of the VOC headquarters in Amsterdam -- is followed up on the left with a similarly-sized thumbnail view of Batavia. Again, it seems to me, the visuals tell a story which unfolds as the eye scans down the page; and the evolution of this visual presentation mirrors that march of events in this article's expository prose. --Ooperhoofd 15:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ http://home.iae.nl/users/arcengel/NedIndie/chinezenengels.htm
  2. ^ http://www.obor.co.id/DetailBuku.asp?Bk_ISBN=979-461-556-0
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