Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Higher education

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Hellenic College

There's a discussion going on here at Talk:List of colleges and universities in Massachusetts#Holy Cross?. So far, none of us know: 1) the independent or otherwise status of the college from theological school or 2) what to name the article if they are indeed the same organization. If they're truly separate, of course, then that will require separate articles and separate entries in relevant lists and templates. --Aepoutre (talk) 17:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If no one has any objections, I'll go ahead with the merger, then. --Aepoutre (talk) 22:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

In regards to Rankings

Since rankings from places like the Princeton Review change yearly, do articles on universities only place the most recent rank they obtained? Or should past positions be noted as well? So for example, if a university places 15th in a category one year, 10th the next, and then 13th in the most recent year, should all three be placed there or just the most recent? NyRoc (talk) 15:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

As with other annual data, you should include the most recent verifiable information. It's a slippery slope to venture down once you start including historical rankings. While there may be a motivation to show that the institution was ranked more highly just over a year ago, I can assure you that with all rankings, any shift in position between years is not statistically significant and almost certainly can be attributed to noise in the data. Madcoverboy (talk) 17:02, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I would very much like to see some standardisation or guidelines regarding the use of ranking entries. It seems that University Staff, Students, and Alumni use statistics to highlight conclusions. However, sometimes statistics are used in a rather disingenous way. For example, UEA presenting the Times "overall" score to represent an academic rating - when in fact there is a more accurate rating which they could have used.

I would like to see some agreement about how long a rating or award can be used for in the introduction - I would suggest a limit of 3 or 5 years. I would also like to see a standardised rating section which would be adopted by each University. It would then be possible for people to make whatever claim they want afterwards, so long as the standardised section is displayed first. Kbdguy (talk) 16:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

In regards to total enrollment

I have made a few contributions to the article List of largest United States university campuses by enrollment . I was wondering if a user seems to own an article and change it so that it specifically fits his/her critrea (sp). Meaning the article title says one thing, but the actual conditions imply another thing. User Schwnj changed the critrea (sp) [1] so that it fits something else. I put in 3 different types of schools which followed the original conditions only to be told that they don't fit the conditions (which I wrote were not written anywhere). One was an online school Excelsior College, another had multiple campus' across the nation (Devry University, Touro University, and the third had multiple campus' across the state (Baker College). These schools are fully accredited and receive federal financial aid. 208.120.47.96 (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

RE: WP:UNI/COTM

It has become apparent that I do not have enough time to run the COTM program, so I would like a dedicated member of this WikiProject to step up to the place and head the collaboration effort. Please send me a message on my talk page if you're interested along with your ideas of how you would like to revitalize the program. Thanks. - Jameson L. Tai ^{talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs} 08:08, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Question: what is it that you no longer have time to do? I guess I'm wondering about the selection process and how long it takes every month. If it's just picking a university based on nominations then I think anyone could step up. Let me know your thoughts.—Noetic Sage 00:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

It is picking university articles and overseeing the improvements - if an article is improved enough, the person in charge of the COTM would see to it that the article's rating is upgraded or nominated for review (GA/A/FA/FL...etc) I'm just less involved with Wikipedia in general since my academics in trying to finish my major and minor's coursework is really starting to get to me, I wanted someone else to take over before the program goes completely dead. - Jameson L. Tai ^{talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs} 07:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Notable alumni

WHat I understand to be our practice of limiting people on lists of alumni to those notable enough for a Wikipedia article or clearly qualified for one has been challenged, at Talk:Tulane University Law School, with respect to people are lawyers whose sole distinction is having made partner in a major law firm. I noticed it because editors have been entering a remarkable amount of detailed material for the School, including a separate article for the placement office Tulane University Law School Career Development Office(CDO) , and even one for the building it is located in, Tulane University Law Annex. The protesting ed. seems to think I'm a student or graduate of a rival law school. He asked on my talk p. for comments from others. DGG (talk) 05:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for having a discussion on this topic. I would like to make some points in response to the post immediately above. First, the distinction in question is more specific than making partner at a "major firm"; the distinction is making partner at a Vault-Top-100 firm (known in the legal community as the V100). Relatively few attorneys ever reach this level of achievement (the list in question is comprehensive or very close to it). Among other perks of reaching this level, the salary is typically between $1 and $2.5 million annually. Many people consider reaching this level to be a greater achievement than becoming a Senator, Judge, etc. In fact, just about anyone I have spoken with is more interested in knowing about the former alumni than the later. Second, advocates (I use plural here because I have spoken with several others who concur with me) of including this info are not fixated on trying to say that the alums are or are not "notable" using Wikipedia's definition of the word; some people might certainly think they are notable, but that is not the purpose of the info. (Perhaps there is a compromise opportunity here if need be: Take the V100 partners list and move it into its own subheading in the Tulane University Law School entry, rather than including it under the "Notable alumni" subheading.) Third, the fact that editors recently added Wiki pages for the placement office, etc. is not relevant to the topic that's being debated here; this discussion is about the alumni list that has been up for some time now. Fourth, it is recognized that the editor above is not directly affiliated with a rival law school.

Finally, I want to repeat some of the arguments for including this list that have already been discussed in a couple other places. First, this list is what Wikipedia is all about: the sharing of information at a level that would not have been possible in pre-Wikipedia days. Of course, Wikipedia is not to be a repository of anything and everything. However, the information in question here is not just arbitrary and useless data. The editor protesting the existence of this list has mentioned the desire for a page to contain info that would be useful to a wide-variety of readers who want to learn more about the entity being described. This list is a perfect way for people to gain info-- not just for prospective Tulane Law students, Tulane Law alums, current Tulane Law students, and Tulane Law administrators, but to anyone else who wants to read and learn more about Tulane Law or the legal community in general. Second, I do want to make clear that this list is not "promotional" as the editor above mentioned elsewhere; rather, it is about disclosure. This is particularly important for the legal community, where there is a notorious lack of disclosure about where graduates end up. My third and final point at the moment, this section happens to be the most valuable part of the entry; people can use it to help plan major decisions. While random trivia that a graduate went on to become a rock star or something is interesting and fun to read, the reality is that most readers of this article would be more (or at least as) interested to see this info. So if we are to err on one side or the other, why not err on the side of disclosure/inclusion rather than deletion? Thank you again for your time and consideration. Issueitems1 (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with DGG on this. This is an encyclopedia article about the school. The names of truly notable alumni are a relevant part of an encyclopedia article, but the list should not be cluttered by the inclusion of alumni who are merely highly successful in their chosen profession. If people want to boast to the world about their school's successful alumni, they can create their own websites for that purpose. --Orlady (talk) 19:57, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for weighing in. First I would like to comment on your last sentence. As I described above and at User talk:Issueitems1 this is by no means "promotional material" or material to "boast to the world." Many readers might view the list as just the opposite. For example, there are only two partners in New Orleans (where the school is located!) and only a handful on the West Coast. The purpose of the material is for disclosure, the intention is not to either boast or to bring down the school. Also, I must comment on your third point, about cluttering the alumni list. As has been previously described, many readers, including myself, do not view this information as "clutter." Rather, it is the most value-adding section of the entry. I appreciate that some people might not be interested in the info, there is plenty of info on Wikipedia that I am not interested in, or that I don't know enough about to understand the significance of. Here, people who are interested in practicing law and learning about he legal profession can learn where highly successful legal practitioners from the school end up, and simultaneously, see where most of the alums do not end up (in terms of both geography and level of achievement). It's fun to see where non-practitioners end up, be it from Tulane or any other school (and I am not suggesting that that info be deleted from Tulane or any other school); but the reality is the most people who are genuinely interested in learning about the Tulane University Law School are more interested in seeing where the legal practitioners are; not just the practitioners coming out of school (which schools' career offices keep track of), but long-term info on level of achievement, where it occurred geographically, and at what firm. Thank you again for your consideration of this issue and the desire to favor disclosure rather than deletion. The truth will set us all free. As a final note, while Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of sorts, it is not your traditional encyclopedia, it provides the opportunity to transcend traditional encyclopedias, which are hindered by stricter space limitations, lack of timeliness, and a lack of writers/editors, among other things. Issueitems1 (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this is actually a great topic to explore. I agree with Orlady that these are encyclopedia articles about schools and that alumni shouldn't actually matter that much. Wikipedia is not a guide and thus should not be treated as promotional material for a school. This includes advertising class requirements, admissions requirements, long lists of famous people that have attended, and other trivial things that are not encyclopedic. If a separate page for alumni exists then surely some of these might be worthy of inclusion. But I personally believe a general policy of this wikiproject should be that university articles should cover notable parts of the university. This could be (as the project's article guidelines explain) "not...a list of famous alumni, but rather a description of notable academic staff and alumni presented in paragraph form." I'm more OK with this than a list, as lists in articles are unpleasant.—Noetic Sage 00:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, we list notable people associated with all sorts of things, and, within reason, it makes sense--the reputation of a university does depend on the notable people associated with it--it's not a collection of buildings ultimately, but a collection of graduates. But there is a standard we use elsewhere in reducing spam, and its having a Wikipedia article. The people important enough for articles are the ones general readers want to know about. The details of who went to what firm are for students considering admission, and they will naturally come to the university web site. Its the exact definition of what counts as promotional. DGG (talk) 23:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. However, this is about disclosure, not promotion. Note that there are only 2 partners in the school's hometown, and only a small handful on the West Coast. Note that the school typically graduates 300+ students a year, and this is the complete list of such partners. Also, these are the people readers of this entry want to know about-- this is a law school entry, people want to know about practicing attorneys. Just because practicing attorneys don't have Wikipedia entries doesn't mean that people aren't keen about knowing about them (e.g., several different editors have added to this list). The idea of having the school post this info is good, but it has drawbacks. First, the school might not be enthusiastic about letting people know this info. Second, the info won't be as timely/accurate. Thank you for not deleting this valuable info (wiki is not paper). Please let disclosure/truth prevail, in the spirit of Wikipedia's goal of sharing knowledge.Issueitems1 (talk) 06:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

if they are notable by our rules, write articles on them. I have long advocated more articles on lawyers, but its been difficult sometimes to find suitable information according to WP:BIO, and too many such articles have been deleted. If you can help write some, do. I suggest you start at the most senior level, with involvement in very notable cases, because such articles are in practice more likely to be kept. It is unfortunate, but inevitable, that those none only within a small circle will not have sufficient supporting material. Make sure there are good published sources. This is not a directory. Nor is it made according to your ideas of which of the alumni people want to know about. Putting in mentions of those people you are proud of , for the purpose of promoting your school when people come to choose law schools, is the very essence of promotion. Are you seriously trying to tell us you have no connection with the school? DGG (talk) 03:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I caution my fellow editors against applying WP:N to the content of articles. The policy is clear in stating that it "only outline[s] how suitable a topic is for its own article. [It doesn't] directly limit the content of articles." So it's unfair and out of line with our standard practices to insist that every alumnus in an article already have his or her own article. Instead, other considerations such as verifiability, neutrality, and due weight should guide our decisions and discussions. --ElKevbo (talk) 05:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you ElKevbo for weighing in on the side of inclusion. And thank you DGG for your suggestion about creating more attorney bios. I would venture to guess that most readers of the article would rather know about these alums than about alums who went on to write film plots. However, I am sure that some readers would beg to differ. Fortunately, there is space for both. I am a student at the school. I have no control over the school's website. I recognize that when an insider is involved there is a heightened scrutiny for neutrality-- which is a policy that I don't disagree with. With that being said, for the reasons mentioned above, I disagree that this info is promotional. Rather, it discloses neutral and objective info about the school. It's not intended to put the school in a good or a bad light. It's about sharing info.Issueitems1 (talk) 20:59, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry; if it appeared like I was arguing for the inclusion of these alumni then I wasn't very clear. I don't have a strong opinion about this particular article and if forced to take a side I would probably lean towards excluding them. What I am trying to say is that WP:N is not a valid tool to use this discussion, at least not in the way it's been referenced so far. --ElKevbo (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I think confusion might inadvertently stem from the title of the section. Specifically, the "most-prestigious" part. This is the formal language used by Vault, so that is what the author used. However, the legal community regularly says V100 or Vault 100. I propose to change it from "Partners at Vault's Top-100-Most-Prestigious Law Firms" to "Partners at Vault 100 Law Firms" if nobody else objects. Issueitems1 (talk) 02:53, 14 March 2009 (UTC) Change completed. Issueitems1 (talk) 03:49, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

DGG: WHat I understand to be our practice of limiting people on lists of alumni to those notable enough for a Wikipedia article or clearly qualified for one has been challenged [...] I'd challenge it from the other side. People who are clearly qualified for an article should get an article, and that article can then be linked. Energy that goes into arguing on a talk page that this or that personage merits an article would be better spent creating the article. Or rather, it would be if the person really did merit an article. Often such redlinks are highly dubious, and all in all they're a waste of time. Incidentally, I frequently prune redlinks (and non-links, including non-linked names of members of blue-linked pop groups, etc.) from the alumni lists of certain university articles, and I don't remember any objection or challenge to this removal other than reinsertion of the red/non-link. ¶ Noeticsage: Wikipedia is not a guide and thus should not be treated as promotional material for a school. This includes advertising class requirements, admissions requirements, long lists of famous people that have attended, and other trivial things that are not encyclopedic. Yes indeed, so I'm always puzzled by the way in which articles on universities stipulate their "colors" and "mascot" (surely far more trivial than admissions requirements, though less prone to obsolescence), demonstrate a curiously credulous approach to official statistics (e.g. telling the world that Yale has "11,398" students [such precision! on exactly which day?]), and often don't bother to say what subjects are studied (which I'd have thought all important, at least for any university worth the name). -- Hoary (talk) 03:25, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Requesting assistance at St. John's University article

Earlier I had a question about rankings (as seen above) b/c an anon user kept bringing the historical rankings for only one category from Princeton Review (which of course was a negative one). I took the position that they were redundant and only the most update position was needed and thus asked the question here and recieved a similar response. I relayed it to the anon user who didn't care and simply reverted it back. Eventually he then deleted the Washington Monthly ranking saying that was outdated. However, I noted that was the most recent up-to-date info from that publication and if he was going to delete that one then the 2007 Princeton Review one should be deleted (which was a negative category). Long story short he then deleted the Forbes ranking (2008) and an award the student newspaper received and the intro to the notable alumni. I came here in November for help because of this user's issue with trying to make the school look bad and you guys helped out alot in restructuring the article. I'd really appreciate it if some of you could do so again. Thanks. NyRoc (talk) 06:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

A few things were listed twice in the article so i deleted repeats. The forbes link was (1) lists/2008/94/opinions_college08 opinion based and in conjunction CCAP which seems to have no type of standing. In the list st john's ranking in the bottom 20% of the best colleges. Newspaper award was 2 years old. I also linked the page to the Italy campus while moving the famous Alumni named to the alumni page on wiki. 208.120.47.96 (talk) 18:15, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

If anymore contributors are willing to offer their assistance that would be greatly appreciated as the dispute is still ongoing now that the page is unlocked. NyRoc (talk) 03:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

You deleted the Forbes ranking because I deleted the "least happy student ranking" from 2007 and the edit history of the article shows that. And so what if St. John's is at the bottom of the list. It is still a list of best colleges and a ranking. And if you want to talk about having standing why do you insist on have that anonymous quotation from Time magazine there? Furthermore, the Forbes ranking and CCAP are both listed in college and university rankings[2] NyRoc (talk) 18:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This project's jurisdiction

I have noticed lately that there have been a lot of articles with our project template on it that are not university articles. Some of these have been academics (people), organizations that serve or are related to universities, institutes that serve higher education but are not tied to a specific university, non-degree-granting institutions, etc. As far as I'm concerned none of these articles are under the purview of our project. This project (in my mind) exists to standardize coverage of university articles. Including all related articles would increase our scope tenfold. I don't mean that we should not include university athletics programs, university libraries, etc, I mean to say that we should not include articles that wouldn't normally be part of a university article. Athletics programs and those are merely extensions of the main university article. What is everyone's thoughts?—Noetic Sage 00:40, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Accredited and degree-granting colleges and universities and their immediate daughter/spun-out articles (History of X, Campus of X, Alumni of X, X's School of Law, etc.). I agree that academics absolutely should not be included. It's unclear what you mean by institutes not tied with a specific university or organizations that serve/related to universities. In my view, something like US News & World Report college rankings should be included, the United States Department of Education should not. Madcoverboy (talk) 01:49, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I also think that, based on WP:UNIGUIDE, some non-university articles fall under this projects purview, although I also agree that individuals likely do not. --Aepoutre (talk) 23:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Do the remarks above indicate that the article on Ralph Cooper Hutchison should not include the University Project template, and editors would be justified in removing that template from the article?DThomsen8 (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

Not having any response to my comment above, I am removing the University Project template from the Ralph Cooper Hutchison article as being about an academic rather than an institution. DThomsen8 (talk) 13:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

Universities articles going crazy

We've seen it all before: certain contributors get bold and create tons of new pages. The University of Dayton recently created a bunch of articles related to things around campus, many of which probably aren't notable. I also just ran across this article, which almost made me fall out of my chair: Buildings at the University of Florida. Why on earth would a university need an article for 50 buildings on its campus? I'm wondering what everyone thinks about these and if there's a way we can better involve ourselves in the prevention of needless articles.—Noetic Sage 01:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Similar issue: I'm still waiting on someone (anyone?) to comment on Template:Southern Nazarene University. I tried making it a useful template by just linking the existing articles (all athletics) but the creator was none too happy about that. --Aepoutre (talk) 23:03, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Several of the UF articles are about buildings which are designated national landmarks. I believe that these can justifiably have standalone articles given their inherent and obvious notability. I doubt that anything else is of substantial notability to warrant its own article. While I'm hardly an inclusionist, I'm lazy: the best option is to keep the content and merge it all into a List of buildings at the University of Dayton or Campus of the University of Dayton and just redirect the rest. Probably gads of WP:TITLE/WP:UNIGUIDE issues as well. Madcoverboy (talk) 01:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea of Campus of the University of Dayton or University of Dayton campus. (IMO, very few individual buildings on campuses are of sufficient interest to warrant coverage in separate articles, but articles about an entire campus could be worthwhile.) Are there any guidelines on naming that would help in choosing between those two names? --Orlady (talk) 01:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

How strange. I just ran across an attempt the other day to "improve" the article on my alma mater's engineering school in a manner that was (A'ing GF) unintentionally tantamount to astroturfing. The odd thing was, I immediately recognized exactly who the individual making the changes was — one of our university's more senior marketing people (full disclosure: I am closely affiliated with, but not employed by, the university in question).
In light of the Dayton "expansion" and a few other things I've seen recently but not connected until now, I'm beginning to wonder if one of the higher-education-marketing trade publications has recently published an article on "How to improve your branding with Wikipedia" or something like that. I sent our marketing person a couple of messages through Wikipedia about editing standards, spam- and promotional-content policies, the manual of style, etc., and the intervention seems to have been successful. However, I'm considering breaking anonymity and walking over to her office on Tuesday, when she's next in, to ask her if there was anything in particular that inspired her to focus on Wikipedia just now. What are your thoughts? --Dynaflow babble 23:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised. Marketing is so trumped-up. I know that I've fought with the com/pub people at my alma mater over this before. It doesn't look like they've tried anything, but I know that's just because there's only two of them and they have enough to worry about as it is. If some editors are adding information I wouldn't otherwise know, and it's just a question of removing non-NPOV material, maybe it's not all bad, even if it makes more work for us. Still, I'd rather they understand the guidelines. --Aepoutre (talk) 00:05, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is anything new. For a long time, it has been frustrating to edit articles about certain universities and certain other similar organizations, as their marketing people show up on a regular to reclaim ownership of the articles, substituting marketing blather for some of the other content -- and deleting historical information because their focus is on selling the "here and now". --Orlady (talk) 01:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Nothing new as I mentioned something similar two months ago. Almost every branched article for umd was written by a SPA to market the university. It does seem though consensus has changed here when it was delete first ask questions later. Maybe this part of the guide needs to be revised. 16x9 (talk) 01:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking at that article on buildings at Florida, such articles at other universities are used appropriately: they are used as combination articles for information about the less notable buildings, rather than just as a guide to unnecessary and uninformative separate articles. The thing to do with that page is to use it as a merge target for such articles as Tolbert Hall (Gainesville, Florida). I have had success with some universities (notably Columbia) in reducing this sort of clutter, but not with all. I'm a little busy in RL now, but if someone were to propose & then carry out a merge for a group of these, let me know & I'll support.DGG (talk) 23:25, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation

This list has grown hugely unwieldy and now is full of broken links, unverifiable statistics (citing a list of faculty rather than anything claiming total affiliates), outdated information, dubious sources (like wikipedia itself), inconsistent procedures for inclusion/exclusion, and absolutely hideous non-MoS highlighting. It's used repeatedly on other university articles as a citation or a piped link/psuedo-citation. With such a classic case of synthesis run amok, where does one even begin? Madcoverboy (talk) 01:40, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Articles on individual programs at Indian Institute of Management Bangalore

There appears to be an article on each of the main postgrad study programmes at the above institution. I don't think it's appropriate and will see if I can AfD them all collectively. Does anyone else have a view? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:33, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

If they're not notable then merge the (worthwhile and cited) content into the main article and redirect them. --ElKevbo (talk) 16:17, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Mentioning names of countries in the lead sentence

Should each university's lead sentence mention the country where it is located? For one university there is a discussion at Talk:Texas_A&M_University#United_States_needs_to_be_mentioned_in_the_lead_sentence - I have argued that for Texas A&M University the nationality of the university (United States, or American) needs to be mentioned in the lead sentence. I argued that this should be done for every institution regardless of national origin to be fair and to avoid systemic bias. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the statement, "I am fine with it not being linked," if you were referring to a US mention. I'll say here what I said there: I've seen a few editors make a good point that Texas is not only known to be in the US but is (or should be) linked. To list neighborhood/village, city, county, state, country, &c. just seems silly IMHO. Go for city (if applicable) and state/province, depending on how widely the country in question uses state names. The United States are the United States and state names are widely used and familiar with non-estadounidenses. I've lived outside the US, and state names are fairly well known from what I've seen and heard. If perchance someone doesn't realise that Texas or Ohio is in the US, they can easily click and find out. That's my dos centavos. --Aepoutre (talk) 22:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Aepotre, couldn't agree more. A few more points I brought up on the aforementioned page:

Mentioning the country is bringing up a wider region that isn't necessary. The cast majority of the people in the world know where Texas is located. For the small percentage that don't, clicking the link would solve the mystery. For similar places (this goes for international concerns as well) which are in well-known locales, mentioning the country is simply unnecessary.

This is not promoting a systemic bias, it is accomplishing what is stated in WP:MOS, a guideline and a requirement for Featured Article status. Contrary to what you state, Wikipedians, as a whole, are not "trying to stamp this out." This is a group of Wikipedians who do not enjoy consensus to do as you are stating. We do not "have to be country-neutral in this way." We do not "have to provide country-specific context for the United States and Burkina Faso alike." These are, apparently, the goals of a WikiProject, not a guideline or policy.

As an example, of all the FA-class University articles:

1. Dartmouth College: "...located in Hanover, New Hampshire."
2. Georgetown University: "...located in Georgetown, Washington, D.C."
3. University of Michigan: "The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor...is a public research university[3] located in the state of Michigan."
4. Texas A&M University: "...located in College Station, Texas."
5. Texas Tech University: "...located in Lubbock, Texas."
6. United States Military Academy: "...located at West Point, New York. "
   
7. Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur: States it was established by India and, by its title, it is clear that it is in India. Most English speakers would not know exactly where Kharagpur or West Bengal were located.

The remaining FA-class universities in the US (Duke University, Florida Atlantic University, Michigan State University, Ohio Wesleyan University, and University of California, Riverside) do mention the U.S. That said, they are in the minority and consensus on those pages seems to favor inclusion. I see no reason to violate that consensus. If we want to use the same format throughout, then my !vote is with using the common name with the country, as is necessary for more obscure locales. — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Aeroputre's point about "To list neighborhood/village, city, county, state, country, &c. just seems silly IMHO. Go for city (if applicable) and state/province, depending on how widely the country in question uses state names."

1. Listing neighborhood/village is 100% justifiable for large cities, while this is not so much for small towns. It's common sense.

2. For the United States, County only if the county is important (i.e. unincorporated areas, where there is no city government) - Typically the incorporated place is more important than the county, so list the incorporated place instead of the county.

3. Now, what do you define as an "important" country? About how well-known it is? By whom? BQZ: You earlier used an Indian place as an example? If we do that, then remove India from that and assume everybody knows where that place is. Why? India has one of the largest English-speaking populations on Earth, so they know where West Bengal is, right? - And if you say that's unfair to Americans, Canadians, British, etc, then turn the situation around and see it from that point.

4. Please show me a discussion where it has been established that there is no consensus for combating systemic bias and that these people are in a minority. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

1. In the sample I used, it would be perfectly acceptable to use West Bengal (wikilinked of course) and not include "India", but the city name and "India" would also work for me. The point is that we don't need region after region after region to describe the location of the institution in question.
2. As I showed earlier, there is no place where "it has established that there is no consensus for combating systemic bias and that these people are in a minority." That said, the converse is also true...I think. What I also stated was that the format of the article you changed that got my attention was agreed upon by approximately 30-40 people with no problem with the phrasing.
3. Wikipedia is not a place for "combating systemic bias". We have NPOV, but that's the closest we come to it. This isn't a war zone, a place to air personal grievances, or conduct personal agendas. — BQZip01 — ^talk 06:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The beauty of hypertext is that you can nest references like that within links. You can type out something like "Sasovo, Ryazan Oblast," and if your readers happen to say to themselves, "Ryazan Oblast?! Where the fuck is that?!" they have but to click the blue text to find their answer. I would format the locations in a way that the "locals" in whatever country hosts the institution can know just from the surface text where the thing is (equivalent to the CITY, STATE format for the United States). If people from farther afield want to know precisely where these places are, they can click through to the places' articles and learn something. --Dynaflow babble 07:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What if we use an adjective to describe the nationality of the university? I.E. X is a Russian university in Sasovo, Ryazan Oblast? Now, BQZ felt that this could possibly make people mistakenly believe that the national government of that country actually operates the university if we describe a university as an "American university" or an "Indian university" in the lead. What do you think about that. WhisperToMe (talk) 10:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm just imagining opening sentences like, "American University is an American university in Washington, D.C." and "Temple University Japan Campus is an American university campus in Tokyo." Maybe we can just banish the country names to the infoboxes (except in cases where the countries are so small, the CITY, COUNTRY formulation is commonly internationally accepted), but make sure all relevant levels show up in the infobox in all cases. Looking in the other direction, universities in world cities (e.g., New York City, London, Moscow, Tokyo, etc.) should probably only be using the city name in the intro to avoid clutter (see how New York University's article does it). Intros should make an effort to be as concise as possible, so the question for a writer will always be, How do you get the most meaning least amount of text? --Dynaflow babble 22:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

This is approach has potential and problems as universities go global. My main concern is that we are confounding geographic location with ownership. This would be problematic with institutions like those at Education City which are American-owned and operated universities despite being located in Qatar. Thus it would be an "American university/campus located in Education City, Qatar". Although I understand the concerns about systematic bias, I'm of the mind that we should omit countries from the lead sentence as this information is of diminished relative importance. Country information should always in the infobox, however. Madcoverboy (talk) 01:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Help at University of Tennessee‎

Can a few editors please help keep an eye on University of Tennessee‎? An editor was recently blocked for his or her disruptive edits and a group of "new" editors has suddenly shown up there that are continuing to edit in the same vain as the blocked editor. --ElKevbo (talk) 21:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

University of the Sunshine Coast

The University of the Sunshine Coast page has been tagged with a COI, with relation to another editor. I am affiliated with the university and have been adding content which I believe to be clean, neutral and appropriate. Can someone have a look over the page and suggest what can be improved to remove the flag. 1Audit1 (talk) 04:57, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Harvard Math 55

AfD for an allegedly difficult class at Harvard: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Math 55. Your comment is welcome as this is a potential precedent or boundary condition for other articles about individual university courses. Madcoverboy (talk) 00:18, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Article alerts

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Thanks. — Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:48, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

Added to project main page. Madcoverboy (talk) 17:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Colleges and Universities in Pennsylvania

I've also left comments at User_talk:Flyguy33#Navboxes and Template talk:Colleges and Universities in Pennsylvania#Size. I wanted to point out WP:NAV and say that this template is really big, and I'd even go so far as to say too big. I'd also argue that no one would need a navbox for all the institutions of higher education in PA that a list couldn't handle better (see WP:CLN). Perhaps, as suggested by one of the guidelines, separates templates, like one for liberal arts colleges in PA or something, might be more manageable, though breaking up institutions of higher education by type can get dicey not only because definitions are so lax but also because type is often tied more to matters of status and prestige than utility. --Aepoutre (talk) 16:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Still no comment on Template:Colleges and Universities in Pennsylvania? I've also found Template:Public_universities_in_Pennsylvania, so these two already overlap in that respect. --Aepoutre (talk) 17:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the two templates Template:Colleges and Universities in Pennsylvania and Template:Public_universities_in_Pennsylvania are of doubtful utility, and far too complex. Also, higher education by type is doubtful, too. For example, Lafayette College is both a liberal arts college and an engineering college in Pennsylvania. Are you proposing that these two templates be deleted? DThomsen8 (talk) 13:49, 21 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

Higher education timeline

I have just found this entry, created in July 2008. I guess that deletion is in order, but I leave the issue in your capable hands. :-) Best, Ev (talk) 20:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Done. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Higher education timeline Madcoverboy (talk) 21:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

How should we deal with articles of the type Degree programs at (name of University)?

Recently there's been a spate of AfDs of articles like Degree programs at Duke University, which list degree programs at their respective universities and may have additional related academic information. We've seen a variety of results such as merge (e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Degree programs at Boston College), redirect (e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Degree programs at NUST (2nd nomination)), no consensus resulting in keep (e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Degree Programs at Ohio Wesleyan University) with a lot of delete votes thrown in. It's been suggested that these types of articles should be dealt with in a uniform way, and that a discussion here would be a good way to start developing a standard response, so I thought I'd bring the matter to your attention. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Degree programs at Duke University which is an open AfD as I write. Baileypalblue (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Repeating here my view expressed at the Duke AfD, which is the first of these I have seen: I think that per WP:IINFO this level of detail is more than an encyclopedia article requires, particularly when it is (presumably) easily available at the University's own website, only a click away from the WP article; moreover the information on the University's site will be up to date, but while it is easy to put a one-off dump of information into Wikipedia, there is no guarantee that it will be updated regularly or at all. JohnCD (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC).

This is likewise the first time I've seen any mention of inconsistencies in outcomes on these articles. While an Academics of University X may be justifiable spinout to summarize the academic organization of a university, a list of degrees is an obvious violation of multiple aspects of WP:NOT: this is an encyclopedia, not a high-PageRank webhost. Madcoverboy (talk) 20:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity: do you agree with what I understand to be JohnCD's position that we should delete these articles when we find them rather than trying to merge them back into their parent articles? Baileypalblue (talk) 01:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Lists of majors and baccalaureate and graduate degree programs should absolutely be deleted per WP:NOT. Information about the academic suborganizations that comprise the university (e.g. the school of law, college of medicine, school of business, school of engineering, etc.) should not be deleted because they do not fall under WP:NOT and many are notable. Departments, like degrees and classes, are almost always not notable except for a handful of departments and programs (University of Chicago economics, MIT EECS, Oxford PPE, and the like). Madcoverboy (talk) 02:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not the least bit sure about special graduate programs. These can be distinctive.DGG (talk) 04:30, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Even if they are, distinctive isn't always notable, and neither is "specialised". I agree with Madcoverboy that, while the programmes he mentioned might be notable, the fact that a graduate programme is a specialised programme does not necessarily make it notable per se. I'm curious to know just what you mean, though. Could you clarify further? --Aepoutre (talk) 17:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

RFC

A request for comment has been filed regarding the Phi Beta Kappa Society. Please make your opinions known at Talk:Phi Beta Kappa Society#Claim of "considered most prestigious". Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 22:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)