Talk:Delta Air Lines

Paris-CDG a hub???

Since when did Paris-CDG become a Delta hub? Charmedaddict (talk) 02:27, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know...

Check out this link. Bottom of page on an official DL press release.

From article on wifi on domestic fleet

news.delta.com

Delta Air Lines is the world’s largest airline. From its hubs in Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis-St. Paul, New York-JFK, Salt Lake City, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Amsterdam and Tokyo-Narita, Delta, its Northwest subsidiary and Delta Connection carriers offer service to 370 destinations in 66 countries and serve more than 170 million passengers each year. Delta’s marketing alliances allow customers to earn and redeem either SkyMiles or WorldPerks on more than 16,000 daily flights offered by SkyTeam and other partners. Delta‘s more than 70,000 employees worldwide are reshaping the aviation industry as the only U.S. airline to offer a full global network. Customers can check in for flights, print boarding passes, check bags and flight status at delta.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.245.250 (talk) 00:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why they are considering it a hub because right now there are zero non-hub destinations...In the near future, there will only be two non-hub destinations. Spikydan1 (talk) 00:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

And on the "About Delta" page (http://www.delta.com/about_delta/index.jsp) CDG is not listed as one of the hubs. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 01:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I am thinking that it should not be listed, with no non-hub fights it should not be listed as a hub. Could this be a typo because I have only seen CDG listed on this one Delta Wi-Fi page... Spikydan1 (talk) 01:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I just went through their press releases and mostly every one of them at the bottom of the lists CDG as a hub. From what I know, after the merger the combined DL will keep its current hubs (along with the NWA hubs) and nothing was mentioned about Delta adding any hubs. I am guessing they list it there just the like NWA AMS hub. Delta is probably calling it a hub because aof their codeshare with Air France. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 02:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with removing CDG from the hub list. Even with the Northwest merge, there will be only two non-hub DL/NWA destinations. LAX on the other hand, which Delta press releases don't consider a hub, will have a combined 17 non-hub destinations. I think press releases aren't always the best sources as they can be filled with aggrandizing claims such as this seems to be.--Oakshade (talk) 06:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:BOLD, I removed it (and from the Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport article). The only sources are Delta Airlines press releases, an obvious conflict of interest. --Oakshade (talk) 18:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Some press releases list CDG as a hub, and some do not. I think that the number of non-hub destinations and if passenger can make connections on DL at CDG should be determined if it qualified as a hub or not. Cause CDG was never a hub (pre-merger or not) and the airline can't just call it a hub. I think that the joint partnership with Air France might have something to do with it but i don't know. Charmedaddict (talk) 02:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

In this sense, then many things should be changed... all of the DL info on new routes and policies comes from these. The company knows best, and Wikipedia doesn't have a definition for a hub. In fact, Wikipedia STRONGLY works against first-person journalistic results from being published. As such, we have to stop our personal analysis and go with the official information. DL has a profit sharing pact which allows them to split AF/KLM profits on transatlantic flights with DL. This means that all of the AF transatlantic flights are also being booked by DL (and DL is earning substancial profit). Whether it is because of the profit sharing agreement or the fact that you shouldn't add your personal analysis, CDG SHOULD be a hub. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.123.132.205 (talk) 15:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree fully with the last reply. CDG should be a hub. In all of their press releases they mention it as a hub. It has operations to secondary Delta cities in the US such as Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Raleigh/Durham where Delta service is only to hubs and focus cities (excluding Cancun from RDU). It is a US-Europe connection hub for them to connect on AF/KLM to other destinations that in my opinion will continue to grow. Passenger loads permitting, of course.--Golfj21 (talk) 19:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Though 82.123.132.205 is right about non-journalistic info, CDG really isn't a hub, LAX isn't considered a hub, yet services many more airports from LAX. CDG may be similar to AMS, but AMS has BOM, PDX, EWR, BOS, and SEA; whereas CDG has only PIT, PHL in October, and RDU in 2010. I don't see how DL/NW could call CDG a hub, but not LAX.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

19:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Delta calls LAX an "International Gateway" but I am not sure if that is the same thing as a "focus city". For CDG, it is pointless to call it a hub. The majority of the destinations Delta flies from CDG are to its hubs (ATL, MSP, CVG, SLC) and only has 3 non-hub destinations (PIT, PHL (from October 2009), and RDU (in 2010) barely counts as a hub. By looking at the destinations DL serves from CDG, I wouldn't call it a hub. By the way, NW no longer serves CDG with their own aircraft, all of its services are all DL-operated flights. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 19:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The point is, if DL calls CdG a hub, then it's a hub, whether or not "we" think it should be or not. WP reports what reliable sources say - we don't decide what is or is not something. TMK, the only authority that determines an airlines "hubs" is the airline itself. If Delta lists certain cities as hubs, then we list them, with Delta as the source - no more, and no less. Anything else is OR. - BilCat (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

• On this page, Delta lists its hubs. CdG is not included here. So, is this the definitive list? If so, why? - BilCat (talk) 20:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The hubs listed on that page are the combined DL/NW hubs as a result of the merger. However MSP, NRT, AMS, MEM, and DTW are not listed as hubs on the Delta article because DL and NW are still seperate carriers (with different codes, operating certificates, etc) and the hubs are listed on the NWA page. Like before, DL "claims" CDG as a hub because of their announced joint-venture services with AF (and CDG is AF's main hub). Charmedaddict (talk) 20:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Delta "claims" all their hubs are hubs. Who determines whether or not thay are actually hubs? We certainly don't - we're an encyclopdia - we just report what the reliable sources say, or what the companies themselves say. Period. Everything else is OR. - BilCat (talk) 20:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Company/History

The article has a non-standard appearance in that the first section deals with all the related business and subsidiaries first then goes on to the history. Any objections if I move history to the top and company further down. Would increase the readability and move some really trivial info down the page a bit. MilborneOne (talk) 12:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

See my Cleanup section above. --Resplendent (talk) 15:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Apology I missed that - suggestions sound reasonable. MilborneOne (talk) 15:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Concur. - No objection have been forthcoming, so I recommend going ahead with the merger, and splitting off the History section. - BillCJ (talk) 10:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

DL Focus Cities (again)

Editors continue to add LGA, MCO, TPA, etc. as DL focus cities. I know that this was discussed before and the source does not make one mention of focus city just the airline it serves. Charmedaddict (talk) 22:54, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Until GoNavy1/98.208.234.63 can present multiple, reliable sources, this will be consistently removed.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

22:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

"Delta operated by Northwest"

Should now be the time to put "Delta operate by Northwest" in airport articles? Cause Grand Forks International Airport have it listed as "Delta operated by Northwest" designation. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 16:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Considering it's been "Delta operated by Northwest" since the beginning of April, I would say yes. --Resplendent (talk) 16:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

No, technically Northwest and Delta are still two seperate airlines, despite what the GFK article says. Also, if you look for a flight on Northwest's website it is marketed as Northwest Airlines, with Northwest flight number. On Delta's website, there are flights that are "Delta operated by Northwest" with Delta flight numbers, but that is in preparation for when they merge. Also, Northwest and Delta have a codeshare through SkyTeam, so this would be normal anyways.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

19:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

They are separate airlines, just like Comair and Delta are separate, but it's still "Delta Connection operated by Comair". The principle is the same. From a passenger's POV at an airport, they check in at a Delta booth, get on a plane that's been repainted in Delta livery, and the flight has employees in Delta uniforms. The frontend is all now Delta, with the small exceptions of the website and possibly (depending on how it goes) boarding passes, which will be changing in the coming months as well. --Resplendent (talk) 19:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I see your point, but many passengers still get on a Northwest plane, and Delta is still in the process of rebranding at airports other than DTW, MSP, and MEM. Also, in ¶4 of Northwest's article it says:
However, Northwest will continue to operate as an independent carrier (as a Delta Air Lines subsidiary) for several months until the operating certificates and other factors are combined.
Until operating certificates are combined in the coming months, it should still be listed as Northwest Airlines.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

20:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Then I suggest we list it as Delta Air Lines operated by Northwest Airlines at airports that have made the change, keeping it separate for ones that have not. Both Delta and Northwest websites specifically give this information, so it's very easy to source. --Resplendent (talk) 22:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't make sense. What if a route's two airports aren't the same in terms of integration? The plane and the crew are the same in both directions but the airport listings are different? I think for now the best way to deal with the integration is to take NW out of alphabetical order and list it under DL for those airports that have ground services merged. HkCaGu (talk) 22:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I found this off of Merger FAQ:
Are Delta and Northwest one airline or two?
Delta has acquired 100 percent ownership of Northwest and is in the process of fully integrating Northwest into the Delta family. The Northwest brand is gradually being phased out and being replaced by Delta's name and brand. During the integration period, Delta and Northwest will continue to operate their own branded aircraft until the integration process is complete.
The answer didn't really say whether it was one or two airlines, but it is something to chew on. Also:
How can I verify which airline is operating my flight?
Customers seeking information on which carrier is operating a flight purchased from Delta or Northwest can check their flight itineraries at delta.com or nwa.com. You can also find this information on your boarding pass. The term "Operated by" indicates the airline that is actually operating or flying the flight. For example, if your boarding pass states "Operated by Delta Air Lines" you should check in with Delta at the airport and/or proceed to the Delta departure gate.
I can see why you could list it as DL operated by NW, but still don't think it should be listed that way.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

23:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

While on the subject, should the NW Airlink flights be listed as Delta Connection flights or should it remain as Northwest Airlink. Since, the NW Airlink page redirects to the DL Connection. I was wondering if we should list it that way. Also another thing, if we should do it like US-HP merger, US and HP should have been listed as seperate carriers also. I think that listing it as "Delta Air Lines operated by Northwest Airlines" makes it look like a codeshare flight. Charmedaddict (talk) 02:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The are still separate airlines, given that they remain separate entities (even if one owns the other) and, most importantly, they continue to operate under their own certificates. What airport display boards say or what the flight is marketed as is immaterial. Once they have obtained a single certificate (a stated goal for late 2009/early 2010 I think), is when they can be considered to be one airline.

For now, let's leave Delta and Northwest separate, with their own entries, and no "operated by"s.

Jasepl (talk) 06:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I concur.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

13:54, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I do not understand this logic. To address Jaspl's point, Northwest Airlink is not an airline and never had an operating certificate. It is simply a marketing brand name created by Northwest to include all of its regional partner flights. As of July 2009, that brand no longer exists and all regional flying is now done under the Delta Connection banner. Each airline continues to fly using its own operating certificate just as it always has. Airport_master (talk) 01:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that all of the NW Airlink flights should be changed to "Delta Connection" flights since the majority of the flights are announced as Delta Connection (the NWA Airlink brand no longer exists) but leave the mainline NW flights listed as "Northwest Airlines" with no "Delta operated by" since none of the NW flights do not have the "DL" flight designator. The only NW flights with only DL flight numbers are present are flights between the USA and Europe/Asia (e.g. ATL-NRT, ATL-FCO, ATL-AMS, ATL-LGW, JFK-FCO, etc.) Also, there are "Northwest operated by Delta" flights (e.g. JFK-NRT, DTW-PVG [from October 2009], DTW-LHR, MSP-LHR [from September 1], MSP-CDG, GUM-NRT, EWR-AMS-BOM, PDX-NRT, PDX-AMS) with only NW flight numbers but those flights are just in preparation for when they merge. But all of those flights are listed under the operating airline. Also, at airports most of the NW flights are still announced as "Northwest Airlines Flight XXX to XXX". Check-in, both airline's frequent flyer programs/websites are still operating seperately. Charmedaddict (talk) 03:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I've just been to GUM, where it's supposed to have rebranded as DL as of June 2. There is no sign of DL anywhere in the check-in counter. It's only NWA logos on the wall. The only sign of DL logos are when the whole SkyTeam roster appear on the wall. I'll report what I see at HKG in a couple weeks. HkCaGu (talk) 08:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

And also, I just went to MEM a month ago and the ticket counters, jetways, walls, and monitors bear the Delta logo but the luggage cars out on the tarmac still bear the NW logo. Also, I flew from MEM-AMS on their A330-200, the plane still has NW colors still painted....but inside everything bears the DL logo (seats, the little tvs, flight attendant uniforms, etc) However, the food trays, silverware, and the headsets still bear the NWA logo eventhough they were suppose to combine in-flight services on all flights. Also, the flight map for international flights still has the NWA logo. Charmedaddict (talk) 15:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It appears based upon this discussion and all of the valid observations the group has reported that the time has come to merge Northwest and Delta. The only poster who seems to be reluctant to make this change is Ishwasafish. As has been pointed-out, they are one airline on the front end in nearly every market. Yes, they remain two separate carriers in a technical sense due to two operating certificates, but that is true of many co-branded carriers (such as Continental and Continental Micronesia). Airport_master (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, true but flight-wise, many of the NW flights are still announced as "Northwest Airlines Flight XXX to XXX" as far as I know none of the NW flights are announced as Northwest Airlines Flight XXX dba as Delta Air Lines to XXX" however I wasn't able to get on any flights with that designation. Charmedaddict (talk) 04:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I tried to book a trip from PIT to LAX on delta.com and nwa.com a few weeks ago. Both listed the same flights and all the mainline PIT-MSP/DTW had the Delta symbol on nwa.com and was listed as Delta Flight XXXX dba Norhtwest Airlines on both websites. Also, MSP/DTW-LAX was listed the same way.--Golfj21 (talk) 14:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I just searched for flights from PIT-LAX and the flights still have the NWA logo on it. It was probably DL/NW codeshare flights. Charmedaddict (talk) 00:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

As Charmedaddict said below, I agree and believe that the change should be made when DL dissolves and redirects nwa.com to delta.com. Also, I might add that CO Mike doesn't have its own website, it shares CO's.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

02:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't you mean when NW dissolves. For CO Mike not having their own website, that's why it is written as "Continental Airlines operated by Continental Micronesia". CO Mike uses the "CO" code on their flights and not "CS" (they use the same website, fleet, etc). That's not like DL and NW..as they are owned by the same company, they are still independent carriers (as they have different codes, aircraft, flight crews, etc.) and also their website are still seperated and you still check-in with either "Delta" or "Northwest". Charmedaddict (talk) 21:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I meant that when the NW website is dissolved and redirected. Sorry, looking back on it that could have been taken a different way. I am aware that it will be NW that will be dissolved.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

21:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the DL/NW is the same as Dragonair/Cathay Pacific, Air India/Indian Airlines. They are owned by the same parent company but they use different ICAO codes, operating certificates, etc. However, they are listed as seperated carriers with no "operated by". Charmedaddict (talk) 21:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

This article makes it sound like that we can write it as DL operated by NW in a few months, and write it simply as DL by Feb'10.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

02:17, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

When is "in a few months"? October, November, this month, September??? B'ham35242 (talk) 03:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, DL says operating certificates will be combined before the end of this year, so at most 4 months.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

13:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Now, we knew CDG is hub, ha!

I found good source:

• Delta Air Lines celebrates 80 years of passenger service

So, now we add it!

• Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport

If no one is disagrees, I add it soon. OKAY! —Preceding unsigned comment added by B767-500 (talk • contribs) 06:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

See the previous discussion of CDG. The source you added that said CDG is a hub exactly came from the DL press releases. We have all decided that CDG is not a hub. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

That is not an accurate assessment of the above conversation. If Delta Airlines has now officially designated the airport as one of their hubs, then we should list it in the article. To try and apply our own definition of what is and what is not a hub violates WP:NOR. — Satori Son 13:58, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

A topic can call itself whatever it wants, but that source is obviously not an independent source. Delta can claim "We're the greatest airline ever," but that doesn't mean we should include it. When CDG has only 6 Delta destinations, one of them seasonal and only two of them to non-hub destinations, that it not anyone's definition of "hub". In fact LAX has 27 Delta destinations, 19 of them to non-hub destinations and and least 2 of those, Sydney and Lihue, are Delta destinations served exclusively from LAX. Arguably, LAX is a true hub. Honolulu, Ft. Lauderdale, Hartford, Las Vegas and others all have more Delta destinations from them. Let's decide content by the reality of the situation and not by non-independent press releases. --Oakshade (talk) 05:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The detailed analysis you have just performed is compelling, but very clearly disallowed by Wikipedia:No original research. Is there an industry-established standard, reported by reliable sources, that defines a "hub" airport? Or are there reliable sources that list all of Delta's current hubs but specifically exclude CDG for the reasons given in your analysis? If not, it is simply your personal opinion. For what it's worth, my personal opinion is similar, but similarly irrelevant to the article contents. — Satori Son 17:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

CODESHARES! By definition at a hub, people must be able to transfer and connect. At AMS, you can connect onward on Delta to India. At CDG, you can't, unless you count all the codeshare flights to Africa, the rest of Europe and the Middle East, etc. Without codeshares, CDG is not a hub. At WP:AIRPORT and WP:AIRLINES we never bought in to codeshares, so it's not a hub. That trumps WP:NOR when we're "speaking different languages". HkCaGu (talk) 17:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

This is not original research. Original research would be "I spoke with Delta executives and they tell me that they only fly to 6 destinations from CDG." No. Flight destination information comes from published timetables verified by independent sources like Travelocity and Expedia. Original research has nothing to do with this discussion.--Oakshade (talk) 18:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Delta Airlink

I wrote redirect which it help out reader that got confused! —Preceding unsigned comment added by B767-500 (talk • contribs) 15:58, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Its called "Delta Connection". Charmedaddict (talk) 18:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

SEA Focus city

Please see discussion at NW talk page. Please do not readd until consensus is reached at talk page. Charmedaddict (talk) 18:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

DELTA HAS 747s

You should add to the fleet infobox a 747, because Delta now has 747s as a result of the 2008 merger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vampire31 (talk • contribs) 11:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Technically, they are still part of NWA's fleet, even if some are in DAL livery. i.e., if you are on a flight between ATL and NRT, the flight would be operated by NWA, even if it was painted DAL.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

12:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

They may be painted in Delta livery but they are NW aircraft that are still used only for NW flights with NW crews. They should not be added to the Delta fleet until the airlines combind operating certificates. Spikydan1 (talk) 16:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, why all of this focus on operating certificates? It's a highly technical distinction. Airlines often have multiple operating certificates even when they operate as one carrier (good example is Continental and Continental Micronesia, yet one is clearly part of the other).

We need to all accept that, in terms of function, NWA and Delta are now ONE! Airport_master (talk) 19:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I second. CO And CO Micro. are two completely different airlines but their listings say "Continental Airlines operated by Continental Micronesia." Micronesia is a full subsidiary of Continental as is NWA to Delta. Micronesia's fleet is integrated with Continental's. In comparison, Continental is Delta and Continental Micronesia is Northwest Airlines. Thus, Northwest's fleet should be listed under Delta's fleet under the Delta page and "Delta Air Lines operated by Northwest Airlines" should be enforced.--Golfj21 (talk) 19:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I concur. NW flights are still marketed as Northwest Airlines. The only time the DL code is placed on NW flights is when they are codesharing with each other. Also, NW/DL have different call signs, ICAO codes, etc. Also, both airlines' web sites are still seperated. So, therefore when NWA.com redirects to delta.com (we can then put the designation as "Delta Air Lines operated by Northwest Airlines" designation in airport articles). Yes, NW and DL are the same but Northwest is still an independent carrier. Charmedaddict (talk) 01:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

For CO and CO Micronesia, they both use the same "CO" designation on both airlines. NW and DL still uses their own codes for their flights. However, there are "Delta Air Lines operated by Northwest Airlines" flights on both NW and DL's website but they are doing it that way for when they merge. Charmedaddict (talk) 01:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

This isn't parallel to CO and CO Micronesia in that DL's and NW's fleet aren't integrated, and Golfj21 pointed out specifically that CO's and CO Micronesia's fleet are integrated, which they are. There aren't NW 747 flights that use DL codes. Also, this discussion is wavering from the DL747s to the discussion above, "DL operated by NW".

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

02:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, DL801/800 (ATL-NRT) and DL803/802 (ATL-HNL) are both flown on NW 747s and they use the DL codes. Charmedaddict (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

PVG

IF you look on NWA.com, you will see the Detroit-Shanghai nonstop will switch from NW 747 to DL 777 eff. October 24. Therefore Delta will still fly to Shanghai with their own aircraft on October 24th (they will fly from DTW instead of ATL) and the flight is being operated in the winter season. Thanks! Charmedaddict (talk) 02:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Note already made. PVG ends September 1 (from ATL) then resume service October 24 (from DTW). However, flights are now year-round. B'ham35242 (talk) 06:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Delta Connection/Northwest Airlink

I was wondering if all former-NW Airlink flights should now be merged together as "Delta Connection" or still listed seperately as "Northwest Airlink"? Charmedaddict (talk) 04:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Per NW's timetables, they still list it as NW Airlink. pikdig (talk) 04:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I think only the full subsidaries of Delta Connection should be listed as Delta Connection. i.e Comair, Compass, & Mesaba should be only listed as that as they are full subisdaries.--Golfj21 (talk) 14:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

If we are keeping DL and NW separate for a certain amount of time, than why not leave NW Airlink and DL Connection separate? It doesn't make sense that DL Connection and NW Airlink would be completely merged before NW and DL.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

19:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

NW SLC-NRT

There been "reports" that Northwest is suspending its nonstop service from Salt Lake City. The flight however still appears in timetables as NW9/10 but however I tried to book nonstop SLC-NRT flights on October 1st and found nothing. So, huh (wondering) how can the flight appear in timetables past October 1st but the flight is not bookable on either Delta.com nor NWA.com booking engine. Why is that??? B'ham35242 (talk) 04:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

My only guess is that there is an inconsistency. What was the date that the route was effective or as of in the NW timetables?

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

23:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Normally when a route is suspended, it first disappears from the booking system (and passengers notified), and it takes a few days for the schedule to be updated. Internet sources such as press reports and travelers' forums, I think, should be considered and not blindly ruled "not reliable". HkCaGu (talk) 07:32, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I could not find any SLC-NRT nonstop from October 1 thru June 2010. I don't know if the schedule is updated yet. B'ham35242 (talk) 04:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I think SLC-NRT is now being denotated as "seasonal". I think we'll probably wait until next summer if this route operates again. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 05:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

DTW-PUJ, MSP-PUJ

I was wondering if someone can watch Punta Cana International Airport page for a couple of days? I just looked on both NWA.com/Delta.com and the flights are operated by Northwest Airlines with their own aircraft and crew. However, IPs continue to add DTW and MSP as Delta destinations with the flights are not operated by Delta. B'ham35242 (talk) 03:27, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

LGA to a hub for DL

I have added information to the introduction that LaGuardia is to become a domestic hub for Delta. They have swapped landing/takeoff slots with US Airways. However, LGA is not a hub yet...wait until approval is granted and the transaction is completed. Thanks! 74.183.173.237 (talk) 20:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

fleet section - add / / for business class?

I think it is useful to have info on the business class. I like the way the united tables are orginized to include it in every aircraft, even ones that don't have business class. 204.140.194.3 (talk) 23:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

There is info on the business class... I'm not sure what you mean though. The UA article fleet section table is the same as DLs.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

16:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Fleet list images

Propose to remove the images from the fleet list, a non-standard practice which provides to small images to be useful and bloats an already full table particularly on small screen sizes. Comments ? MilborneOne (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Concur. - BilCat (talk) 20:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I am for having the photos in the fleet section. I also might note that it doesn't seem that non-standard considering its found in the FL, AS, AA, CO, DL, B6, NW, NK, SY, UA, and US articles.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

00:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Not sure 10 of 3800 articles is standard some of these images have only been added in the last few weeks. Probably not that important as I think the fleet section should probably all be removed with just a summary as it is a duplicate of the information in the fleet article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Changed fleet section to a summary of the sub-article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

13:52, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Fleet Section?

What happened to the fleet list and I can't seem to find the changing edit? --Golfj21 (talk) 01:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

MilborneOne (talk · contribs) removed it and the info is on the Delta Air Lines fleet page. It should say that at the top of the fleet section.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

01:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The link to Delta Air Lines fleet is the first line in the fleet section, this link was not a new addition. MilborneOne (talk) 11:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Semi-Protection

As to many recent vandalism edits to the Delta Air Lines page. Should it be put into temporary Semi-Protection. --Golfj21 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Delta new route changes

Delta has shifted some more routes from Delta to Northwest and back to Delta. I went ahead and made the following changes:

• DL ATL-FRA to be operated by Northwest eff. November 1.
• NW ATL-AMS to be operated by Delta eff. October 24.
• DL SLC-NRT is to be summer seasonal.

This is verified by Delta's booking engine. If you find any more route changes, then please feel free to make those changes. Thanks! 74.183.173.237 (talk) 02:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Transcluded merger text

I really don't think the merger trasclusion text is working out - the transclusion is just a little too convuluted. (I don't know if such transclusions are permitted by the MOS or not.) I'd recommend either restoring the separate merger article, or keeping the text here, and linking to it in the NW article. - BilCat (talk) 01:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, it was working until RaseaC (talk · contribs) started using it for talk and not discussing it with us. Even so, if we decide that it can't work, I would prefer to restore the merger article itself.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

15:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, what sort of idiot would use a talk page as a talk page?! I see no reason for whatever it is that this is called, templates make sense because they're on a lot of pages, this doesn't as it's only on TWO pages and will be redundant quite soon anyway. It just makes editing each individual article more difficult and causes minor issues (such as bold typeface). I think the text should be put, properly, into each article and if this brings on the end of the world I will e the first to admit I made a mistake and put it back. RaseaC (talk) 15:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Archives

This talk page is getting to be quite long. Should we archive some of it?

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

19:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

IP "prematurely" merging DL and NW flights

A certain IP continues to go to certain airport pages and merge both DL and NW's flights together. Posted on his talk page twice that both airline's flight operations continue to be seperate eventhough airport operations are combined. Can someone please watch this IP for a while? He might continue to merge DL/NW flights to more airport pages. Cheers! Snoozlepet (talk) 03:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

BOS and LAX hubs???

BOS and LAX were removed as hubs for 2 reasons:

• 1. Delta does not enought flight capacity at BOS to become a hub (and they are reducing at BOS) and it was discussed to death that BOS is not even a focus city. Delta describes LAX as an "international gateway" not a hub (that is a big difference).
• 2. DL lists only 9 hubs on its website: the four pre-merger hubs (ATL, CVG, JFK, and SLC) and the 5 hubs inherited from NW (DTW, MEM, MSP, NRT, and AMS). The only new hub that was announced by DL is LGA.

If anyone know of a source or news article announcing that BOS and LAX are indeed hubs by DL, then feel free to add them with a source. Regards. Snoozlepet (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

SOC Changes

I have a few questions concerning articles involving Delta and Northwest after the SOC goes into affect at midnight 12/31/09.

1. Should NW hubs be listed at the Delta page?

2. Should NW flights listings on airport pages be listed as "Delta Air Lines" or "Northwest Airlines operated by Delta Air Lines" which is really how it is going to work. Thanks! Golfj21 (talk) 00:59, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I say yes to #1, and I think that just saying Delta Air Lines in airport pages is technically correct. They are using one operating certificate, so there are technically no more NW-operated flights, just the combined DL flights.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

03:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

On the hubs, it's not Jan. 1 yet, so I don't think the hidden notes should be removed. Also, it would be good to wait for cnfirmation from Delta on what they consider there hubs to be, rather than just adding all the NW hubs here. - BilCat (talk) 04:19, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that we should wait until January 1 to make the change since that's when the 2 carriers' SOCs officially combine. On the hubs, Delta's website lists all of the hubs (both pre-merger DL and NW's) on their website. If Delta lists it as a hub then its a hub. On the "Northwest operated by Delta Air Lines" flights, it should be listed just as "Delta". Since when the SOCs combine on Jan. 1, it will be all Delta anyways. Snoozlepet (talk) 07:34, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

A few editors jumped the gun on changing NW's hub over to DL. I've reverted it back in the meantime. I would at least wait until January 1 (US-PST time) at least to change it over. Sb617 ([[::Special:Contributions/Sb617|contribs]]) 08:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Delta's on EST - you might find the early jumpers jumping again at that time. - BilCat (talk) 08:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

On the exact timing, we need to verify how they're filing their flight plans on websites like FlightAware etc. Likely the changeover will be consistent by departure times from the same airport. And I think "NW operated by DL" makes no sense at all. If they're still branded in reservation systems as NW, then it's not completely DL. We do pay attention to branding for United Express or Delta Connection regardless of FAA designation, don't we? In such case, "DL operated by NW" may not be a bad phrasing. HkCaGu (talk) 09:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2009/12/28/daily28.html?ana=yfcpc . The deal is already done and went into place at 00:01 on 12/31/09 EST, let the editing begin! Golfj21 (talk) 18:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but plenty of planes are still operating as NWAxxxx today. And the flight plans have already been filed for SPN-NRT and GUM-NRT leaving on January 1, 2010 at 6 am ChST (12/31 3 pm EST)--with a NWA code! HkCaGu (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Correct, the "NW" code and NWxxxx will still exist unitl mid-January, but the flights are still operated by Delta and thus, Northwest does no longer exist. The apx. 90 non-painted planes will carry stickers that read "Operated by Delta". The reservation cut over that has not happened causes the flights to be NW. That will make the callsign and code DL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Golfj21 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No, the callsign is still NWA! HkCaGu (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

When exactly is DL going to be putting its code on NW-operated flights? Snoozlepet (talk) 19:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The cutover will be January 31, 2010. All premerger-NW aircraft will carry a "Operated by Delta Air Lines." Delta will use Northwest's callsign until inventory cutover. Dan (talk) 15:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Northwest Airlines destinations

Since Northwest no longer exists as an airline, should we go ahead and merge the destinations on Northwest Airlines to the Delta destinations article now or should we wait until reservation systems/websites combine? Thanks! Snoozlepet (talk) 06:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Dont have a problem with the data being on Delta page but the NW destinations should be left as a as was when NW finished. MilborneOne (talk) 10:50, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Nothing here but praise for the authors!

Having spent some time fighting stupidity in the physics articles, I wanted to point out what a fine job is being done with these aviation articles. The information is accurate and up to date with copious references. Great work. Too bad the idiots I have to deal with will not take the lesson. Antimatter33 (talk) 05:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Fleet Section

Since we had the subarticle, the fleet section has changed from what it was originally to just a link to the subarticle to a simplified version of the chart to the subarticle charts combined. I noticed that everything is the same except that the Boeing 757-200 now has "see Delta Air Lines fleet" while everything else matches the subarticle. Now I have two proposals, either we go back to the simplified chart or we could be more specific on the aircraft (i.e. Boeing 757-232, Boeing 757-251, Boeing 757-2Q8) just to clean up the mess I believe it would make. Either way, we should have all the information or just direct people to the information.Dan (talk) 13:28, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I suggest going back to the simplified chart...If you want to add more detail that would be the place to do it. The whole arguement to move it to its own article was because with the merger (now complete), the fleet section would be too big...like it is now. Also, it is WP:AIRLINE consensus not to list customer codes in the fleet table. Spikydan1 (talk) 13:34, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Support the comments by Spikydan1. MilborneOne (talk) 19:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The fleet article has to have a section of the current fleet, though. Right now it is just the pre-merger fleets, which are now historical.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

22:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The subarticle needs to be kept for historical purposes only and should not be deleted and/or removed. The fleet serction already has the aircraft combined anyways. Snoozlepet (talk) 03:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Then there should be a section on the fleet page of the delta fleet in 2009 like there is for 1960, 1970, 1980. The Northwest fleet should be moved back onto the Northwest page. Spikydan1 (talk) 03:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that will work well.

Ishwasafish ^{click here!!!}

01:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Fleet Section subtable?

There is poor alignment in the 757-200 part. Maybe a table across those three columns on the left side would help maintain alignment. The number of orders happens to be zero, so zeroes can be filled in for all the variations. -- SEWilco (talk) 05:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)/New Georgia Encyclopedia/Delta Air Lines

The New Georgia Encyclopedia ("NGE") has authorized Wikipedia to import and/or merge eleven articles, which I have copied to project space; one of these is Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state)/New Georgia Encyclopedia/Delta Air Lines (which may, as I new look over it, be better suited to merge into History of Delta Air Lines).

Our goal is to get the NGE articles in top shape and merge or move them into mainspace as quickly as possible. If this turns out well (as I am confident it will), the NGE will likely permit us to import their remaining body of over 2,000 well-researched and well-written articles, which could pioneer a trend for other private owners of encyclopedic content to release their materials into our corpus. I would deeply appreciate any help that we can muster in accomplishing this. Please note that the original NGE article (linked in the required attribution section of the above article in project space) has images, but NGE is unable to convey those to us at this time, as they are individually licensed by NGE. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking at that article, it seems to have some great detail about Delta's history, however, it is a little out of date. For example, Delta is no longer using the 767-400ER on domestic routes, as they have all been shifted to international use. ANDROS¹³³⁷ 01:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure the earlier historic parts can be used, though, and the out of date materials can be fixed with a change of tense. We have carte blanche from the NGE to copy and paste as much as we want, wherever and however we want, so long as we don't make a hash of it and provide the proper attribution for the text used. bd2412 T 01:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Format Error

I don't know how but the accidents and incidents have ended up in the See Also section and I have tried to get it back to place but I cannot figure out what code has moved it. If anyone can, please try to move the accidents and incidents back to their respective tab and away from the Wikipedia Books.Dan (talk) 01:07, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem was caused by a bad edit here. I've fixed it. Too many cooks! - BilCat (talk) 02:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

DL DC9

LANDED SHORT AT SDF IN EARLY 70'S BROKE IN HALF NO ONE HURT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.142.151.56 (talk) 19:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Missing hub

I have readded the Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport hub that was missing from the list. It's hub status is confirmed here, a citation to which I have also added to the article. — Satori Son 13:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Just to reiterate what I stated above: If Delta has now officially designated the airport as one of their hubs, then we should list it in the article. To try and apply our own definition of what is and what is not a Delta hub violates WP:NOR. — Satori Son 14:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

is the Paris-CDG hub operated in conjunction with SkyTeam partner Air France? Since AMS is a hub and in the hub information, it states that AMS is a hub operated in conjucntion with KLM. Snoozlepet (talk) 19:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Are there any new releases or news reports on Delta opening the hub at CDG? Spikydan1 (talk) 01:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't recall. Delta did announce joint venture with Air France-KLM but never said anything about opening a hub. The only hub that was announced was LGA but that hub is waiting for the slot swap with US Airways to be completed and waiting to be approved by the US DOT. That's the only hub i recall that is awaiting opening. I don't know about CDG. Snoozlepet (talk) 05:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

When NWA and KLM made the first joint venture from the Wings Allaince they did not announce the "Opening" of new hubs. Instead what was seen was NWA making full use of the shared marketing and operation of Amsterdam flying for passenger flows over the North Atlantic so as to dub AMS a "Hub". With the singing of the 2009 JVA between Delta and AF-KLM the relationship deepened to include a wide plethora of flying that was not included in the original 1997/Wings JVA. This is seen in the releases from the time here and here where the hubs are called "joint venture hubs" to indicate the collaborative nature of the hubs and their anticipated use by the aligned companies as though all the effected flights were their own. All Delta news releases include descriptions of AMS and CDG as Delta Hubs. A detailed description of the pooled nature of the JVA operations is seen from the Delta side here and can be seen at Air France at their corporate site. Think of it as the new interport hub system to replace the Pan Am/Delta Frankfort hub, Pan Am/United at LHR and TWA at CDG.128.252.254.1 (talk) 22:34, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I would have to agree with CDG being a Delta Air Lines hub in the same manner Amsterdam-Schipol was a long-time Northwest Airlines hub through the 1993 immunized Joint Venture with KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. To list AMS as a Delta hub and not CDG is absolutely the result of petulent refusal of reality given that the 1993 Jointventure has been replaced to reflect the conglomeration of Air France-KLM and the merger of Delta and Northwest. Air France even makes careful description of all Delta, KLM, and AIRFRANCE hubs as Joint Venture hubs given that they essentially operate as one airline on the Atlantic (North and South) as seen here. The reference can be seen on the Delta side in any press release since the signing of the new agreement as seen here. (Sorry I do not have a Wiki User Name...) 128.252.20.177 (talk) 03:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

AMS is a little different from CDG in terms of Delta service. DL flies to 5 non-hub destinations out of AMS (Boston, Portland, Newark, Seattle and Mumbai) as opposed to 0 flown out of CDG. And that Mumbai destination makes AMS a true DL transfer point while CDG has no DL flights that anyone would transfer to as all of the destinations from/to there are transatlantic (unless someone's on a mileage run).--Oakshade (talk) 04:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Oakshade. At CDG, you can't connect or transfer to another Delta flight. You can only connect between Delta and Air France. Actually Delta only flies to 2 non-hub destinations (Philadelphia and Pittsburgh) while 1 flight is seasonal (Minneapolis, and it is a Delta hub). Snoozlepet (talk) 05:17, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Revenue and sales-wise those Air France flights are Delta flights just as those AMS flights are NWA or Delta flights operated by KLM...And you let AMS be listed as a hub...May one also point out that all those AF flights from "non-hub" locations for DL in the United States and Canada also have DL Codes... I suggest that from a network POV it is equally a hub for Delta as well, the number of connections that are booked over CDG is astounding. The BOM-AMS flights are operated by Delta FOR KLM as part of their Joint Venture. The flight has between the two companies over time. This is really just a continuation of a practice that is already accepted for AMS. CDG is a hub.128.252.254.1 (talk) 07:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

(Unindent) For several years there has been an ongoing battle over what defines a hub as a hub on WP airline and airport article. Nothing here on this page indicates that it is any where near beeing settled. This stems primarily from he fact that there appears to be no primary definition of Hub, so every user makes up his own as best as he understands the issue. But this is never going to be settled unless a standard can be settled on.

I see three types of sources of such a standard:

• First, a standard definition of hub from an offiial government body or similar aviation authority. So far, I've never seen such a definition.
• Second, a definition of a hub that is accepted by several leading aviation periodicals. AGain, I don;t know of one, but there may be one somewhere.
• Third, an airlines own definiion of what it considers to be its hubs.

As pointed out above, we cannot make up our own standard ow what is a hub, as that is original research. The first two must come from reliasb le sources, while the last one ought to come from a news releaase or otther official communication from an airline. If we dont have a definition from the first two types of sources, then the only one left is the airline itself. There is no other way around that conclusion. Unless of course you actually like arguing incessantly over the same issue for years on end! - BilCat (talk) 06:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Some secondary sources have definitions of a "hub." The book Airline network development in Europe and its implications for airport planning has an interesting formula as what is defined as a hub. It's rather confusing, but it doesn't seem CDG would fit into its definition for Delta (no Delta-Delta transfer traffic). This goes for the same for the book Gateways to the global economy. The New Yorker defines a hub as "a major airport at which an airline gathers passengers and disperses them in many directions, along the "spokes" of its routes." [1] (it's in the preview). Delta does not gather and disperse passengers in any directions to/from Delta operated flights at CDG. If somebody has sourced definitions of "hub" that would indicate CDG really is a hub for Detla, I'd be open to include it in the hub list.--Oakshade (talk) 18:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Delta does gather passengers into CDG for distribution all over Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia on flights operated under a joint venture agreement with AF/KLM. These flights are sold on DELTA's 006 ticket stock with DELTA flight numbers and Delta has more vested interest in the operation of these flights (arguably) than the regional connection flights which operate as "Fee for departure" by third parties that are NOT DELTA. These DCI flights form the backbones of the "Hubs" MEM, CVG, and SLC. It is apparent from the use of the term "HUB" by the airline that Delta views CDG and AMS as very important connection points for its global network meeting all the important criteria for a hub that your sources list. 128.252.254.1 (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the above user, with JV, flights are just like Delta Connection, instead of Delta Air Lines Flight XXXX operated by Comair, it's Delta Air Lines Flight XXXX operated by Air France, though the same could be said in reverse and we would have to say that Atlanta is a hub for Air France.redlegsfan21 (talk) 22:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually those are Air France flights operated by Air France, not Delta. You can purchase Delta codeshare tickets on some of those Air France flights and they will technically read "Delta flight XXXXX operated by Air France," but they're still Air France flights. Not only does Air France sell most of their tickets as Air France coded flights, but as other NON-Delta Skyteam and other partner coded flights (see Air France Codeshare agreements section). In Delta Connection's cases, those are flights exclusively coded to Delta, not ever as Comair, Masaba, Atlantic Southeast, Compass, etc. Those "Connection" airlines have operating agreements with other airlines too and in those cases, their flights are exclusively codes as their respective "parent" airlines' codes; ie you will never see a Delta coded Delta Connection SkyWest flight also coded as a SkyWest or United Express flight. Comparing Air France/Delta-coded flights to Delta Connection ones is comparing apples to oranges.--Oakshade (talk) 01:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely they are Air France flights first and foremost, but from a hub perspective they serve the exact same distribution function as DCI but throughout far-off places. The AF flying and CDG hub operate under the same documentation that makes AMS a hub. Delta, in very close partnership with Air France and KLM, funnels passengers onto these CDG and AMS flights for further distribution with extensive coordination that even results in AF and KL suggesting times to DL to optimise connections with their connection banks. All of these tickets involving JV operations are then pooled for income and expenses for the two companies. This really is identical in principle to Amsterdam which you have no problem with because of a single BOM flight that has bounced back and forth between KL and NW equipment and crews for years, just like the now ill-fated CDG-MAA and CDG-TLV segments that bounced back and forth between Delta and Air France. Its all about who has the right equipment/expenses for the route that determines the route assignment to the airline (Just look at how Delta Handed Air France its JFK-CDG frequencies to stream-line the product offering to AF's higher-yield product). They really do not care who operates the flights, the network is shared, and hence the Hub is integral to Delta's network.128.252.254.1 (talk) 03:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)