Talk:Almohad Caliphate

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Western Sahara

wikiproject?¿ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.25.121.159 (talk) 13:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

King/Prince

A reference is made to the 4 Princes of Christian Spain: it is my belief they were Kings, as referenced to in the account of the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa so should this be changed?Norgy (talk) 22:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Theatre

i did say it is a theatre. the almohad and the almoravid were in the current Morocco not algerie. but Mustafaa is again an alegrian . and the is just the reason.Aziri 14:15, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What fantasies are you talking about now, Aziri? I didn't write this article, and it doesn't claim they were Algerian anyway. - Mustafaa 17:09, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

see the history of algeria , and see the history of Morocco.Aziri 12:15, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

error in timeline

It seems to me that suggesting that "all the moorish lands" in Spain were lost in a few years after the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa in 1212 is telescoping things a bit. It was certainly an inflection point in Iberian history, but the reconquista took another two and a half centuries to end the Moorish domains.

tone of the article, and answers to alg./morocco question

I think the tone of the article is a bit...subjective? judgemental? certainly not very NPOV; three repetitions of "fanatical" with reference to the almohads, (not even credited to some observor who considers them fanatical). My understanding of the Almohad movement is that one might call Ibn Tumart a fanatic, but the Almohads themselves were pretty standard medieval Muslim dynasts.

And RE: the Morocco/Algeria question above; the distinction obviously didn't exist back then; for what it's worth, the movement's founder, Ibn Tumart, was a Masmuda berber from the mountains in the south of present day Morocco, but the dynasty's founder, Abd Al-mu'min, was a Berber from Tlemcen, in present day Algeria; he conquered the territories of what is now both of those countries.jackbrown 00:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And yes: re: error in timeline, the the late 1200s, most of the Muslim territories in Andalusia were lost, but Granada held on for another couple of hundred years (till 1492, when columbus sailed the ocean blue, as a point of fact)

this article is outdated

This article mostly uses secondary sources of more than a cntury old (see references). It is completely outdated. Wikipedia runs the risk of recycling the colonial views which the Encyclopedia Britannica held before the first or second world war. Brittanica did away with them but the ideas reappear in this form on the internet.S710 10:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This map its wrong!

The map is allegedly wrong, according to the info on Image:Almohad dynasty 1147 - 1269 (AD).PNG and I have removed it for now. Could someone look into it? What sources is it based on? There is no mention of them. / Fred-J 09:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Books

The extensive burning of books by the Almohads should be mentioned. Badagnani 03:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flag?

What source is there for this flag, which is also used at Almoravid dynasty? Srnec (talk) 19:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong

It's not the flag of almoravids. I have ordered the flags flollowing the dates of independance: Hafsid (1230), Zayanid (1235), Nasrids (1237), Marinids (1258). I have Retired history of Morocco because it's history of Maghreb, the maker and the first calif of Almohad dinasty is Abd Al-mumin and he's from Algeria in present day, all the the tribes of maghreb have contributed in wars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deezy31 (talk • contribs) 23:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. No objections. — kwami (talk) 12:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC) ~~~~[reply]

Almohad dynasty → Almohad Caliphate — The Almohads were recognized as caliphs within their realms. All other articles about caliphal dynasties (even those not universally recognized) are titled X Caliphate, not X dynasty (e.g. Abbasid Caliphate, Fatimid Caliphate...). This article should be renamed for the sake of consistency. BomBom (talk) 01:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template

The template {{History of Morocco}} has no place on this article, because of some reasons which are:

Abd al-Mu'min is the founder of the almohad empire and first Calif, and he came from modern Algeria
The almohads are composed of diffrents tribes from all around Maghreb

So the almohads belong to history of Maghreb and are not a moroccan dynastie.--Morisco (talk) 02:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From the Talk Page of Omar-Toons

The following section comes from the Talk Page of Omar-Toons [1] and has been splitted to suit each article (Almoravid dynasty and Almohad Caliphate):

Omar-Toons, I started a real work on the dynasties before and after the Almohad Caliphate [2], why have you done this without any respect for the time I spent to organise the article. I waited for an answer to my posts on the Talk Page but you did not discuss. Whould you finally decide to discuss or cotinue your edit-wars ?--Morisco (talk) 21:59, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

As you can easily understand, en.WP doesn't work the same way than fr.WP, then what was decided there isn't applicable here.

A "real work"? Seriously, do you consider that a "real work"? You just removed a template and added an extensive succession list, which may be not precise, since it consider that the territory of each dynasty was divided at the time of its falling, but the reality is that each dynasty lost, at the end of its power, its territories the one after the other, and kept control over a little territory (which is located in Morocco), before getting power overtaken by its successor starting form the same territory (Morocco). The paragraphs "History" of each dynasty's page as well as the page "History of Morocco" explains everything.

Which kind of "answer" are you expecting on the discussions? Seriously, did you wrote any question? Did you ask for a discussion? You just shared your point of view with us [3]. You just said that you think that this template has no place on the article. No questions, no arguments. And how do you think people can read/find a question that you wrote somewhere in the middle of the discussion page [4]?

The "History of Morocco" template is available on many WP's (including English and French ones), all include the Almohads and the Almoravids, but you don't agree with that, in my opinion, since it doesn't match your POV!

Just to answer to a few questions:

- Where were located the "centers of power" (capital) of these dynastie? In Morocco.

- From where did they start the conquest of other territories? From Morocco.

- Which was the last territory that they controlled while they were collapsing? Morocco.

- How came to power the dynasties who reigned after? By taking their places in Morocco (That also explains the succession tab on the infobox).

- They were originated from somewhere else? Then the US are no longer the same than before since the president is partially originated from somewhere else? Come on! Most European monarchies are ruled by dynasties that aren't of "local descent". Is that a reason to consider that the Bourbon dynasty isn't Spanish? Bonaparte conquered the Dutch, is that a reason to consider it as a European leader, and not a French one? The answer is NO. By the same way, the Almohad is Moroccan, and I don't see any reason to consider them otherwise.

I just gave you some examples. If you don't agree, try to convince the user who made these templates to remove the two dynasties, as well as the wikipedians who wrote these two articles, since including this template (along with the "History of Al-Andalus" one, but I don't understand why this one was removed) was accepted (then became a consensus between the users, since no one removed it or discussed its removing, and since the users who (tried to) discuss it weren't contributors) for more than 2 years.

I don't really care about the nationalistic feelings. WP is a collaborative Encyclopedia, not a forum to explain nationalistic feelings and to modify articles because of them.

Omar-Toons (talk) 22:46, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Continuation of the discussion

Omar-Toons, we are not going to do like if we do not know each other, we have already discussed about this template in the french Wikipedia (See the discussion), and the descision was the template has no place on the article. Since en.fr and fr.WP are independent of one anotherand, I start again the discussion we have had on the fr.WP and answer to your arguments:

I consider a real work, adding the previous and following dynasties properly because it is not easy, I have already done it on the french WP. If your problem was the "Template", you could set back only the template, without removing what I have done.
The "History of Morocco" template is available on many WP's, only means that someone has created the templates, on the french WP the template is not allowed to be used on the Almohad Caliphate (verify), and I will propose it to suppression.
The Almohads came from diffrents parts of the Maghreb, including the Masmudas, the Zenata and the Banu Hilal, they took the capital of the Almoravids during their conquest southward, they did not conquer Morocco, then western Algeria and after al-Andalus ; they conquered some parts of Algeria before other parts of Morocco. And talking about Morocco and Algeria is an anachronism.
From where did they start the conquest of other territories? From the Atlas in Morocco, but like the Almoravids, they conquered some parts of Algeria before other parts of Morocco.
Which was the last territory that they controlled while they were collapsing? Their capital (Marrakech)
How came to power the dynasties who reigned after? Not by taking their places in Morocco as you said, that was true only for the Almohads after the Almoravids (and that not explains the succession tab on the infobox).
They were originated from somewhere else? The answer is "Anachronism", your examples are not suitable in our case.
Last point, I do not understand why you talk about nationalistic feelings, this has nothing to do with an encyclopedia.

See if other Wikipedians join our discussion--Morisco (talk) 16:47, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For the last time: What was decided on Fr.WP isn't applicable here.

Omar-Toons (talk) 17:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is why I launched the discussion again here.--Morisco (talk) 17:17, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This map gives the area from which the Almohads started their conquest. The source is given on it.

Omar-Toons (talk) 22:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Almohad vs. Morocco

The are two differents countries, not one is the sucessor of the other.Bokpasa 21:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

First, thanks to write an understandable sentence in English.

2nd, thanks to give us, not a source since I don't think that a source for such affirmation can exist, but a logic for your approach and an explanation for your (supposed, but inexistent) argumentation.

3rd, thanks to avoid editing articles without discussion, based only on your opinions.

You have been blocked and warned before for vandalism on articles related to Morocco [5] [6], and you're still acting the same way despite that. Please stop acting this way, you are deteriorating WP.

Omar-Toons (talk) 22:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I see, you still don't respect the Wikipedia:Assume good faith, using the past to discredit the present. Let's talk about your vandalism, what's you goal ?

Bokpasa, puedo traducir, sólo tienes que escribir en español.--Morisco (talk) 12:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]