User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Still waiting for clarification on PC

User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 69#Pending changes

Hi Jimbo, I'm still not clear as to if the "release of the new version" mentioned here has actually been completed. As I mentioned in the above linked thread, I've somewhat lost track of what's going on with PC. Also, regardless of whether we're currently using the new version or not, what are your plans for achieving consensus, since you seemed keen to do this at the time of the last poll. (Note to talk page stalkers, I'm here looking specifically for Jimbo's comments, although I also welcome your input). Cheers - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 17:02, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Kingpin13, like you, I've lost the plot myself. I was completely swamped in every way with the 10th anniversary press, but now I'm digging out from under. I'll ask the Foundation the status, and we should push for the start ASAP of the next test. I believe the Foundation completed the release of the new version, but I don't think we've commenced a formal test. This time around, I want to make absolutely sure before we start that we have absolutely clear conditions on "what happens next", rather than the confusion we had last time around.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

If you wouldn't mind, Jimmy, could you enquire with the relevant people about whether it would be plausible (hypothetically, for now) to create a higher level of Pending Changes that would require review by admins (and only admins). As an admin who's very active around the Main Page, I think this could have a positive affect on DYK and ITN as an alternative to full protection while still protecting the most visible part of Wikipedia from misguided editors, compromised accounts etc. Obviously it would require consensus to implement, but it would be interesting to hear if it could be easily done as part of an future trial. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:51, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Why admins and only admins?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:48, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Typically only admins can control the content on the main page, as the risk of a defacement to our main page (which would be considerably embarrassing) is otherwise too high. So at present some of the pages at DYK and ITN are fully protected. Changing this to pending changes would allow the non-admin editors working in those areas to help out further, without increasing the risk of defacement. Thanks for your replies Jimbo, I look forward to seeing PC developed for the benefit of the project, in a consensus lead manner. All the best, - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 01:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Kingpin. Jimmy, to give you an example, everything except for the prep areas on T:DYK/Q is fully protected at the minute, because once it's on there, it's in a queue and will be moved onto T:DYK (which, obviously, is transcluded directly onto the Main Page). This has to be the case at the minute, because the risk (or rather the temptation for those who might have a less altruistic use for a page viewed 6 million times a day) is so great, but if we could allow edits by anybody (or, realistically, any autoconfirmed account) pending review by an administrator, we could greatly improve efficiency at DYK and ITN in particular, but without the risk. Both ITN and DYK have several contributors who aren't administrators but are far more experienced than most admins and this would be a great way of allowing them to help out more and we could have non-admins being able to control (to an extent) the content of the Main Page for the first time in at least 5 years (probably longer). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:25, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I see the point now. I will ponder this further.

I'd be wary of this idea - in the situation HJ Mitchel points out it would be a plus, but if this feature was in place I can see a push for it to be used more generally, and it would significantly change the role of admins, moving them into the position of using tools to make content decisions. I'd be interested to see where community discussion went on this: I guess it depend to some extent on how people see wider use as being a risk. - Bilby (talk) 02:30, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

While I'm a supporter of PC, I would have to oppose any PC proposal that would implement an admins only PC level. Full-prot is only used rarely, and has significant repercussions if used improperly, I can easily see the disastrous consequences of giving certain admins the option of "Full-prot lite". However, using PC-2 on the main page might be useful, since only reviewers (who are trusted members of the community) can accept those revisions. But I will not support "Full-prot lite" under any circumstance. Ronk01 talk 03:04, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

The threshold for reviewer is far too low for Main Page purposes. It's all very well asking them to screen out vandalism and other crap from articles, but the thought of asking such unqualified people to add content to the Main Page in accordance with all the various procedures (the DYK criteria or a consensus and update for ITN) and check for things like BLP violations, copyvios etc. sends a shiver down my spine. I hasten to add that there are many non-admins more than capable of stepping up to this challenge, which is why I suggested this in the first place, but there are many who might hold things like reviewer and rollback but are not competent to be doing this sort of thing. I'm also curious as to how you think a "PC3" would be more open to abuse than full prot is? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 03:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Just from my perspective, this idea gives admins a new ability - approving or denying content. Admins can edit fully protected pages, but those edits are done only with consensus from talk, not based on the admin's personal opinions. PC3 moves the admin's role from making changes decided through consensus to approving changes based on their interpretation of the validity of the content. On the Main Page, as described, this would be fine. But if it happened in mainspace it would be a significant change to the role of the admin, and would be at risk of significant abuse if implemented outside of the proposed bounds. - Bilby (talk) 05:40, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Provided that it were restricted to pages directly related to the Main Page, I suppose I wouldn't have a problem with it (though I do have to ask why we need to filter the input of people constructively working on the main page, why not create a Crat-granted permission that would allow them to do so directly). But in terms of potential abuse in the mainspace, full prot is abused already, do we really need to add a "softer" version? PC-2 is more than enough for the Mainspace. Ronk01 talk 03:46, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I can't see a use for it in the mainspace, but I'm sure the devs could prevent its use in the mainspace easily enough. Admins have no way of adding the existing form of PC to anything outside the mainspace and the project space. As to your idea of a separate permission, that would probably have to give them the ability to edit any fully protected page, which would leave it open to abuse. Besides, we already have admisnhip. This is only necessary because a few people at RfA have managed to turn adminship (which, contrary to popular opinion, really is quite dull) into some kind of superhuman status, but I digress. "PC3" would be easier to implement and probably harder to abuse than a new permission of some sort. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:02, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo, could you please comment on bot-based alternatives to PC. ClueBot NG (talk · contribs) has been enormously helpful recently. I mean professional (not spare-time) development of proper, artificial intelligence based antivandal software. Just to give an example, we do get real maniacs from time to time. It is already one-two weeks since one is daily targeting WP:TFA (and articles around it, have a look here, which is a filter which was set for this, but stalled because it needs daily tuning) swapping many dozens of open-proxies per day and eventually causing massive semiprotection. He/she could and should be stopped by bots. Instead, several admins and editors have to waste their time. Surely, the answer could be "we should go both ways", but manpower is limited, isn't it, and neither of the tasks is trivial, but the bot-based one does not need approval by consensus, just professional programming and smart adjustment at times. Materialscientist (talk) 05:48, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Yahya Ayyash is a hero according to arabic wikipedia!!

what's wrong with these people?? when israeli army becomes occupying force! when "was killed" becomes "martyred"! when armed people becomes resistance army!!! etc... please don't give me the every pedia has its own bla bla bla... this is incredibly against wikipedia rules, and what makes it worse is that the admins accused the ip who were trying to fix that of vandalism [1]!!! would you do anything or i am just vomiting right now? --Fadywalker (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

"Ayyash is credited with advancing the technique of suicide bombing in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The bombings he orchestrated caused the deaths of approximately 90 Israelis.[2] A master of disguise, Ayyash was the most wanted man in Israel for three years, and the target of a massive manhunt.[3] Ayyash was was assassinated by Israel's Shin Bet in 1996. Shin Bet tricked a trusted friend of Ayyash's into giving him a bomb-laden cell phone. When Ayyash used it, Shin Bet detonated it, killing him instantly." -- from the English Wikipedia. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:24, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

You may need to explain more clearly what the issue is here. Admittedly, I'm using Google translate, but the article text doesn't appear to say "hero" or "was martyred" anywhere (although "hero" is used in the English text). I can't say for sure it is a model of NPOV (because I don't know enough about the subject), and it has few citations, but the Arabic and English versions look fairly similar in tone and content AFAICT. There does seem to have been a short-lived edit war at the end of December over whether the words "occupation" and "resistance" should be used in the article, but surely that sort of content dispute is not uncommon on Wikipedia in any language.--FormerIP (talk) 23:41, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

It might have been vandalism? Well, anyway although I don't speak Arabic, I know enough Arabic language Wikipedians to say that they generally strive for neutrality in the same way that we do. I have no doubt that struggles over words like "occupation" and "resistance" are, as FormerIP says, common everywhere. But I think it is unlikely to be the case for very long that any Wikipedia language will have extreme bias. (Though, of course, it is entirely possible that they will come down in slightly different places, which is unfortunate but likely unavoidable.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

google translate? it's still no good.. especially when it comes to يستشهد/استشهاد (Martyring) which is translated to cites according to GT!! please check these modifications [2] [3] [4] etc... and translate the highlighted words but please try using a different translator this time, maybe babylon because it's more better --Fadywalker (talk) 19:36, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Mr Wales, yes there might be some arab wikipedians who care about neutrality but the question is how much are they? what is their percentage? how serious are they? how much could they stand against the "dark side" AND FOR HOW LONG? the answer is not good, or why is there many articles about israeli cities which converted to "palestinian"? or there are still some admins fighting for keeping the "pbuh" phrase next to muhammed? etc... --Fadywalker (talk) 19:28, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you care about 'neutrality'? Reading that, I doubt it very much. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:57, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

how?? --Fadywalker (talk) 00:31, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

This may seem a bit off-topic, but I think one of the greatest things about Wikipedia is that its existence will make it very difficult for future generations to engage in the type of historical revisionism that prior generations have practiced. Every single edit to the article about this guy is in our databases, and looking at that editing history will illuminate whatever is in the top version with an essence of the bitter, emotional conflict that existed in the world he was a part of. --Versageek 03:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo IPO

Hi, Jimbo. Congrats on (y)our tenth.
Cold you explain how you have planned to become millionair? You are American, and WP is in the top10. How will you sell wikipedia? Are you planning something like that? What's the non-difference with "MySQL" (now Oracle)? Strangely enough, I have never read any substantial vision of you in these.-DePiep (talk) 00:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I dunno, I think I'll become a fashion model. Ha. But seriously, Wikipedia is a charity. No one is going to sell it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:54, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Is not an answer. As I said: evasive. (hey, how do you talk with these google/facebook collogues? They must be laughing at you now). -DePiep (talk) 02:14, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what's evasive? There will be no IPO or sale of Wikipedia. What else are you trying to ask me? Or are you just trying to be insulting?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:31, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Offensive is, you are turning this question into an "insult". Now what are the plans with wiki, long term? -DePiep (talk) 03:13, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Watch out here, it appears we have a Mr. Slugworth to your Willy Wonka. Better hide the Everlasting Gobstoppers and all the other "exciting new ideas" :p Bozzio (talk) 04:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps whoever's in charge over at Encyclopaedia Britannica Online is doing a bit of spying. Bozzio (talk) 04:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Why not just an answer? -DePiep (talk) 05:02, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Maybe because Jimbo has already answered the question ? (Just picking one example linked from a recent Wikipedia Signpost, there seem to be several examples per week.) If you've decided that the answer is different to the one that he gives, what can he do about that? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:10, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, 'maybe' it is. If your link is the answer: your link says Jimbo: "celebration of what is to come" (uh, not what is?), "charity with a mission" -- sure. So, like what the western world did in Africa? Mother Teresa? A mission? Hey, he you (Jimbo in the link) says now there will be a "first office outside of Americe (USA)?" I say: not a vision, not a plan. (Oh well, the Office will track me & suffocate me later on). -DePiep (talk) 05:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

DePiep, you may find this helpful. I recommend that you drop the hostile tone, it's really not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:49, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I can drop a "hostile" tone within a second, if it were present at all. May I note that your first reaction here was not relevant? What is "hostile" at all when asking for a to-the-point reaction? ("Or are you just trying to be insulting" -- is straight trolling, sir). Above this, the two other users who reacted here (Bozzio and Demiurge1000) did not know or point to the strategic paper. -DePiep (talk) 06:12, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

You called me evasive. You suggested that people must be laughing at me. You went on to suggest that you would be tracked and suffocated. That's what I meant by "hostile tone".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

No I did not. It was you who said "fashion model" in a first reaction. I did not say "people laugh at you". I said two specific persons laugh (by their position), that is not "people". And yes, I call you evasive. Who is trolling? All this is before I react to the paper you linked to (which two editors here did not know about). You did not link to the vision in a first reaction. All this is by questions & facts. In general, really, I do not like the "you are insincere" tone you introduced. -DePiep (talk) 07:05, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

'You are an American and...'? I guess it's time for me to give up what I'm doing and start playing a tin whistle and start telling jokes instead, after all I should have the gift of the blarney. Dmcq (talk) 11:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

"these google/facebook collogues" refers to "two specific persons"? No one here has any clue what you're talking about. You asked "How will you sell wikipedia? Are you planning something like that?" Jimbo said, quite clearly, none of that is planned. He has not been evasive; he made a joke. Powers ^T 13:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia's beginning and the decision not to have advertising

Jimbo, in this article, you state that "Sanger was absolutely adamant that Wikipedia must have ads, and it was my refusal to do so that led to Wikipedia being as it is today. The Spanish fork did not provoke any changes of any kind. We stayed the course. I didn’t want to have advertising, and I found ways to avoid it."

Sanger responded by posting an email from 2002 in which you said that, "Just as the National Geographic Society is supported in large part by advertisments in the National Geographic Magazine, I expect this to be a potentially necessary thing at some point in the future, if we wish to have an impact beyond our own little corner of the Internet. (And, I think we all do.)."

Could you comment on what could be interpreted as a discrepancy in what you and Sanger are saying took place with regards to intent to use advertising in Wikipedia? Cla68 (talk) 04:35, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't see what the discrepancy is supposed to be.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:47, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo thought advertising might prove to be necessary, but he didn't want advertising, and successfully sought was to avoid it? Is this any more than that Wales and Sanger held differing predictions of need of advertising, one short term reluctant and long term tentative, the other adamant? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:13, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I think Sanger is saying that Jimbo's behavior at the time did not illustrate, as shown by the email, a "refusal to have ads". However, Jimbo appears to be saying that the email indicates nothing of the kind. Sanger says that he himself made no effort to have ads, contrary to Jimbo's assertion. So, we seem to have a "he said, he said" situation. This is your talk page, Jimbo. Do you agree with my assessment? Cla68 (talk) 10:54, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Human long term memory is revisionist. It is not reliable. When thinking about an old memory, you alter it. Jimbo is neither an independent nor objective source for his thoughts ten years ago. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:00, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

@ SmokeyJoe-Quotations from the subject of an article are surely admissible to the article ? JWales may not have total recall (or other superpowers :)- I will verify with Marvel Comics), but certainly no-one else at all at all can say what his thoughts were or were not. Who knows? maybe the man has kept a daily thoughts journal for decades? Sometimes executives have to adopt a short term strategic position in an email. Whether it was or was not JWales who was the chief mover in keeping ads out, I am delighted with the result.--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 13:10, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

The discrepancy is much simpler than all that. By saying, "Sanger was absolutely adamant that Wikipedia must have ads, and it was my refusal to do so that led..." Mr. Wales fairly straightforwardly implies (1) that he was opposed to ads, (2) that I was adamantly in favor, and (3) that he actively resisted my (supposed) demands. In fact, (1) was false, (2) is silly (I was not "adamant," I wanted to keep my job), and (3) is inaccurate (he tried to sell ads, and failed; or so he told me). The fact of the matter is that Mr. Wales had himself long declared that Nupedia and Wikipedia would eventually be supported by ads, and he told me in December 2001 and January 2002 that he was trying to sell ads in order to support my position. But you don't have to take my word for that; on the salient point, a better quotation can be found from Feb. 2, 2002, in which he says, "However, with the ongoing hard times in the Internet economy, we do anticipate adding some forms of advertising to the site in the near future." Read the whole post; Mr. Wales' support of ads at the time was quite definite. So you see, no reliance on memory is necessary in this case. --Larry Sanger (talk) 03:48, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Larry. Point 5 in that email mentions in a sarcastic way what eventually happened:

5. I know the introduction of advertising will be controversial with some people, no matter how carefully and sensitively we do it. Those people are invited to step forward and pay for Wikipedia out of their own pockets if they like.  :-) --Jimbo Yopienso (talk) 04:12, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Loughner question

There is a lot of debate going on about File:Photograph of Jared Lee Loughner by Pima County Sheriff's Office.jpg. I wonder if you'd be willing to express your opinion on the matter. Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:58, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is that it's a really interesting edge case. I am very sympathetic and supportive of those who point out that it's very likely reasonably easy to get a properly licensed photo of the man. One of the main reasons for having a strict policy on fair use is precisely the incentive effects for people doing that sort of work, which is quite valuable.

I remember talking to an amateur photographer and baseball fan some years ago who was dismayed that people were taking down his pictures from Wikipedia and replacing them with copyrighted photos with a thin fair-use rationale. The truth was, and he was the first to point this out, the professional ones taken by photographers with access to do a proper photoshoot were actually better. His photos from the stands were not as good for physical reasons. He was disheartened.

When we take a hard line on fair use, we open up a space for people to do really interesting work at getting properly licensed photos.

This case, of course, is different in some ways. First, this is a situation of immense and immediate public interest. Second, getting a fair use photo is likely to take some time - weeks at least.

One of the things that will be great in this debate is if someone who is very strongly in favor of getting a free image actually manages to do so, and in reasonably short order. That'd be a great way to prove to some people that it isn't that hard.

Having said all that, it might sound like I am coming down firmly on the side of 'delete'. But if I am, it's a 'mild delete' because I do think that fair use is an important doctrine, I do think the article ought to have a photo, etc. Mostly I want people to treat each other with respect in the debate, and take every opportunity to grow as a person by trying to really hear what the other side is saying.

If there is anything I can personally do to help get a proper photo, I'm available to send emails in my name or make a phone call, if someone will assist me in figuring out what to do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:00, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Very good. I am going to link to here from that discussion and see what new discussion it generates. Thank you for your time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:21, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

The guy's existed for a decent amount of years, many pictures of him exist. If none surface then fine, but at the moment we don't need a non-free version. Black Kite (t) (c) 20:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I assume BK will accept Jim's challenge and search for one of those free photos. Meanwhile, the picture was removed from the infobox and placed in the section that discusses the arrest, so the case for keeping it appears to be stronger now. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:15, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Japanese business income

I hope to contribute a business income of $12,000 that you got in Japan to the foundation.It is the fund which a Japanese user offered for Wikimedia project, and the income is not your personal income. You should do the personal diversion.--山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 06:52, 22 January 2011 (UTC)