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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 98.148.1.173 (talk) at 23:32, 18 March 2011 (→Georgia = Gujaristan ???). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage

Former good article nomineeGeorgia (country) was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 21, 2006Good article reassessmentDelisted

motto

what is source of motto?

Too long

This article is way too long, each section should provide an essential overview of the topic. In this article my attention is particularly drawn to the History, Geography, and to a lesser extent the Economy sections. They need to be cut, that much information is enough for a whole article. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

that change looks better. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, the reason I bring this up here is that some editors objected earlier to me simply removing pictures. The gutting of the article I am now proposing may seriously be objected to, yet it probably needs to be done. I've perused through the History of Georgia (country) and all the relevant information on this page seems to be there. Additionally, it has the same picture glut problem. A second opinion about the duplication of information would be good, I don't want to accidentally delete information here that isn't on the History page. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is hard to comment without knowing what exactly you want to cut, how your are going to cut and how big your imagined final state article would be. If you want to be careful, you could set up a draft page in your user space. Or else, simply cut ahead and wait for reverts. Whoever reverts will have to say what he dislikes about the new version. --Xeeron (talk) 13:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well right now I'm just asking for other opinions on length. It just seems like its much too long, especially compared to featured country articles like Australia and Indonesia, which have much shorter sections. Probably what needs to be done is each current subsection neatly summarized into one or two paragraphs, without that much detail. An overview of the History doesn't need detailed information on each king. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It can clearly be cut in length. Since you seem to be worried about objections, I should warn you that the recent history (especially the wars since 1991) are controversial topics, bound to elicit edit warring. In some cases certain sentences have only been arrived at after lengthy back and forth. That being said, I still feel that you should just go ahead with the work and then have others have their say later. --Xeeron (talk) 14:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia = Gujaristan ???

The following recently added claim that "Georgia was known locally as 'Gujaristan'" needs to be reconciled with the text at Gujjar which says that "there is little evidence for such claims" — or else the comment should simply be removed here. Richwales (talk · contribs) 19:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Please remove the notion that Georgia was "one the first countries to adopt Christianity" in 500 AD. This implies that it adopted Christianity before the Romans which is not true. Rome adopted Christianity way before Georgia and right after Armenia. Armenia holds the sole distinction of being the first nation to adopt Christianity and not Georgia.

disorganised gobbledygook

i wanted wikipedia to tell me, as first thing i read in the main body of text:

Georgia is a sovereign state in the Caucasus region of Eurasia.

instead it told me:

Georgia (Georgian: საქართველო, sak’art’velo IPA: [sɑkʰɑrtʰvɛlɔ] ( listen); English pronunciation: /ˈdʒɔrdʒə/ ( listen)) is a sovereign state in the Caucasus region of Eurasia.[7][8]

Seriously, is this meant to be intelligible English? Please move the gobbledygook into the sidebar. If this needs to be recommended elsewhere, beyond the realms of this mere 1 article, then please forward it to the necessary people. honestly, who can not see that this jargon does not belong at the top of the main section of the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.78.238 (talk) 16:38, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lede again

I don't believe I have to say this, but 1) I did not revert indiscriminately, I looked over what I was reverting (for example including Sophievonanhalt's edits) 2) I have not at all violated WP:3RR, and I'd like to know how that conclusion was reached. 3) It takes more than one to edit war, and per WP:BRD I was following process. I mean seriously, "so technically you are the one who's edit warring"? Anyway, there has been continuous debate about the lede in the past, and Eurasia was a valid compromise between Europe and Asia and the whole dispute about continents. It should not have changed without consensus, and especially not after being reverted. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 18:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When I said you reverted indiscriminately I had this in mind [27] line 287. The previous paragraph was vague and the notation "WHEN?" was there for a very long time. Clearly, it had to be restructured and someone did his/her best to do so. You reverted everything, including this necessary change and this is what I had in mind. As for the three revert rule, I see that you have reverted the changes made by the IP three times on January 8. I reached that conclusion by looking at the history page.--Polgraf (talk) 18:32, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On line 287, the edit in no way resolved the "WHEN?" tag, giving no date, but simply changing the wording. The tag still applied. In addition it added unsourced information about apparent lack of procedure, which I feel is POV enough to need a source. Reverting 3 times does not break 3RR, reverting more then 3 times breaks it.
An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period.
Note I did not perform more than 3 reverts, I actually checked before making the last reversion if I had already made 3. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize, perhaps while looking through the history page I miscounted how many times you have actually reverted the user in a single day. This does not change the fact the you reverted some good faith edits. The tag WHEN does not still apply as you argue because the paragraph does not seem to refer to a single negotiation but rather a process of negotiations. Since the conflict officially began in the early 90s, there have been at least a dozen attempts to negotiate. The process of Russian military involvement did not have a single date either. Rather, it happened over the course of the past few decades. This makes me think that restructuring the paragraph to make it more general was advisable given that a concrete date was not found for such an extended period of time. Regardless, I must again apologize that I did not count your reverts well--Polgraf (talk) 19:17, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah nothing to worry about the 3RR thing, as long as it's cleared up. I have reverted good faith edits, but I did so with reason and not indiscriminately, and have given my argument. Restructuring may be a good idea, but that doesn't justify the POV about passports. Anyway, what is your opinion on the lede? I'm hoping the IP will join discussion here. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 19:29, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian passport information that I provided is not a POV and there are various news sources which I will add —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.134.249 (talk) 19:46, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The lede is as it should be.There is definitely an overwhelming amount of serious sources that place georgia in europe. Some cited asia sources are also important but I honestly think that simply noting them should be enough in the face of evidence from multitude of intergovernmental organizations which have been listed. --69.142.134.249 (talk) 20:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1. In all fairness it was me who added the Asian placement sources back after you completely removed them. Now you are saying that they should be noted in the article so I view that as a progress in your way of thinking.
2. I reworded your addition to the separatist enclave paragraph and made the sentence on Russian passport distribution more neutral. Although what you wrote appeared true, the tone of the writing was still not in line with the standards of Wikipedia, or any encyclopedia for that matter.
3. Because I realize the seriousness of the European placement sources you provided as well as aware that most Georgians themselves would never link their country to Asia either politically or geographically (their education books and historians are clearly unambiguous in this regard), I think the most appropriate notation is Europe. I remember a somewhat similar dispute with the name Georgia. Georgians from the state of Georgia as well as some ill-informed Europeans have pushed for renaming the article. The dispute was not settled until someone provided an explicitly-worded Georgian constitution article 5 to establish the name as it is. I do not see why an official statement from the Georgian government - combined with these sources - should not be enough to keep the article as it is. --Polgraf (talk) 21:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Europe/Asia thing is a contentious topic, and has been debated previously. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 There are others too, but the arguments seem back and forth
By the most common definition of the border between Asia/Europe, Georgia is divided between the two. Stating unequivocally in the lede that it is part of the "Caucasus region of Europe" (Europe has a caucus region?) is not NPOV, as it does not justify this at all. The previous lede never said it was in the "Caucasus region of Asia", it struck middle ground, rather like Georgia does between Europe and Asia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What I see is that there is an overwhelming evidence to support the Europe notation. While there are some sources that place the country in Asia, this evidence is only enough for the Asia notation to be noted if someone gets curious and nothing else. The importance of even these few sources has been overblown as it is the case of the UN reference. While noting that the UN website placed Georgia in Asia, no one mentioned that this was only the UN statistics department preference and that most other UN organizations as I have listed do consider the country to be in Europe. I understand that Eurasian compromise would seem reasonable but when dealing with already an obscure country, would one want to further confuse the readers by ambiguous placement such as Eurasia?(one third of the world?). I think the existence of a couple of legitimate sources such as UN Stats Department, Factbook, and Britannica does not warrant this compromise in the face of a much greater number of supporting evidence. My argument is that a simple notation should be enough. By writing anything besides Europe, we will imply that these couple of sources at least two of which are encyclopedias, have as much weight as the abundance of evidence including those from the EU, Council of Europe, as well as major worldwide organizations - they do not --69.142.134.249 (talk) 05:11, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Georgia has territory in Europe (at least by the usual definition of the border) and thus gets into European organisations. It is transcontinental (if you consider Europe and Asia continents) and so the organisations you cite have simply chosen one over the other. The UN statistics division chose Asia, UNESCO chose Europe, etcetera. Saying the country is Eurasia is not ambiguous at all, especially since the previous few words specify it is in the Caucus region. It's not a question of sources saying it's European or saying it's Asian. There is a reason that Georgia is on both the List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe and the List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:24, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
1. I see no reason in that at all, that is just the way wikipedia does things. Note well that for a long time Georgia was not included in Europe on wikipedia at all. It was included only after someone made a noise about it and provided legitimate sources a couple of years ago as I recall. Citing wikipedia listings to determine that "there is a reason" to any of this does not suffice. 2. Georgia is in Europe and that is why it gets into European organizations. Kazakhastan "has territory in Europe" as well, why does not it become a member of Council of Europe and get listed by such multitude of organizations as European? Apparently having a land somewhere is not enough. In fact in many of the sources I provided, Armenia is listed as European even though none of wikipedia versions consider Armenia even partially European. Europe is a sociocultural and political construction and whether Georgia is divided into two continents by a river or a mountain is irrelevant because it is completely arbitrary. Why this river and not that? Why this mountain and not that? Why this watershed and not some other? If people themselves view their country as European, they should not need an arbiter at Britannica or wikipedia to decide it for them with such insolence --69.142.134.249 (talk) 05:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we should write that it is in Europe while noting - in sentence and not through a notation - that the country is also sometimes considered Eurasian because of its placement in the periphery.--Polgraf (talk) 05:46, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Kazakhstan probably hasn't applied to join these organisations, how am I to fathom the minds of the Kazakh leaders? Noting Georgia's disinclusion in Europe would support my argument, but as it's irrelevant that doesn't matter. Europe is commonly defined as a continent, and thus has borders. In fact, wikipedia has information on it, if you'd care to read. If I was to take your "If people view their country as European" argument to its logical conclusion, I could also say that if South Ossetians view their country as independent then they should not need an arbiter like Mikheil Saakashvili.
To Polgraf, saying it is considered Eurasian after saying it is in Europe would be redundant. All countries in Europe and all countries in Asia are Eurasian. Eurasia was in the lede to reflect the fact that Europe was sometimes placed in Europe, sometimes in Asia. Eurasia in unequivocally correct, whereas saying Europe and Asia requires qualifications. Perhaps a section in Geography explaining the situation? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The south Ossetia example has nothing to do with this situation and was not helpful. By providing that example you are implying that Georgians want to be officially European even though they are not and I do not find that acceptable because I do not see a reason why they would do that. As for the opening sentence, we can note that Georgia is sometimes placed in Western Asia because of its peripheral location if one finds Eurasia redundant. --Polgraf (talk) 05:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The South Ossetia example was simply used to show the type of argument being used was flawed. I'm not using it to make a political statement or anything. I don't understand what you mean I'm implying, but I assure you I didn't mean to make any personal insults or similar. Sorry if I did. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 06:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Eurasia is unequivocally correct"? Perhaps we should just state that it is a country on planet Earth, that would also be unequivocally correct as it encompasses all it possibly can. --69.142.134.249 (talk) 06:02, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Although I see your point IP, your cynical attitude is not helpful. Here is what I propose:
  1. ^ Numerous sources place Georgia in Europe such as the European Union [1], the Council of Europe [2], British Foreign and Commonwealth Office [3], World Health Organization [4], World Tourism Organization [5], UNESCO [6], UNICEF [7], UNHCR [8],European Civil Aviation Conference [9], Euronews [10], BBC [11], NATO [12], Russian Foreign Ministry [13], the World Bank [14], Assembly of European Regions [15], International Air Transport Association [16],Oxford Reference Online, OSCE [17], ICRC [18], Salvation Army [19], International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies [20],Council on Foreign Relations [21], United States European Command [22], Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary [23] and www.worldatlas.com.
  2. ^ Please note that some sources place Georgia in Asia. the UN Statistics Department [24] places Georgia in Western Asia for statistical convenience [25]: "The assignment of countries or areas to specific groupings is for statistical convenience and does not imply any assumption regarding political or other affiliation of countries or territories." The CIA World Factbook [26], National Geographic, and Encyclopædia Britannica also place Georgia in Asia.
The problem is the situation isn't clearcut enough to simply give a clear statement in the lede. That's why there have been so many discussions in the past, with the settling on Eurasia with footnotes explaining the situation. I'm not sure the new suggestion is much of an improvement (And noting here per WP:BRD the old lede should still be in place), saying it has a peripheral location is vague. We know it means peripheral location in Europe, but the reader may not. Additionally, there is no "Caucasus region of Europe". The main Caucasus article even has This article is about the geographic region in Eurasia. in a hatnote.
As for the IP's argument about Planet Earth, he did what I did in terms of taking an argument to its logical endpoint, but I'd like to note it's not analogous as I actually went to the smallest uncontroversial descriptor, whereas the IP decided to just go large for no reason.Chipmunkdavis (talk) 06:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then I guess we can remove the Caucasus wording and include it somewhere later. The Caucasus article naturally talk about Eurasia because the country articles mention it and not for any other reason. --Polgraf (talk) 06:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what I propose: Georgia (Georgian: საქართველო, sak’art’velo IPA: [sɑkʰɑrtʰvɛlɔ] ⓘ; English pronunciation: /ˈdʒɔrdʒə/ ⓘ) is a sovereign state in Europe,[1] sometimes considered Western Asian[2] because of its peripheral location in the south-easternmost part of Europe. Located in the South Caucasus region, the country is bounded to the west by the Black Sea, to the north by Russia, to the southwest by Turkey, to the south by Armenia, and to the southeast by Azerbaijan. --69.142.134.249 (talk) 06:40, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't think flatout saying "is a sovereign state in Europe" is appropriate and WP:NPOV, which is the main problem. An important article, especially one about a country that has been as contentious as Georgia, needs to be very careful about the way it is written. Anyway, if it's okay I think that we should wait for more opinions, as I think we are all beginning to repeat the same arguments. If no other editors comment, would this be appropriate to post at WP:3O? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 06:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Neutrality does not mean unanimity. What the IP is arguing in this case is that there are more reputable sources placing Georgia in Europe than they are those placing the country in Asia. That is not his/her opinion, that is a fact as of now from what we have seen. If someone comes up with two dozen respectable citations for Asia placement like it occurred for Europe, then the compromise which you previously mentioned will be necessary. As of now however, I do not see why a simple clarifying statement would not suffice. If unanimity was a condition, very few articles would be written on wikipedia. Strangely, when someone wrote the much-cited Britannica article among others, they did not care about being in minority. We on the other hand, are expected to give their work equal weight with the 20 other opposing references taken together. That is what it means when you are wary of saying Europe "flatout." --Polgraf (talk) 07:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a competition between number of sources. In addition, the majority of sources used are political, not geographical as would be preferred. Whether they are "More reputable" or not is debatable and case by case. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:26, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly you must admit that when there are two dozen sources for one view and not nearly the same number for another, the opinion tends to sway towards the former. As for the nature of organizations, yes the organizations are political but to be perfectly honest the Asia placement sources are not geographical either. Who are the authorities on geography, the UN statistics department or Britannica? The only closest reference to the realm of geography is National Geographic, even that is mostly written by reporters and not individual geographers. If one deems Georgia unworthy of being included in Europe as they wish, they will find whatever they have to. Certainly, when the country was completely ignored as Asian a couple of years ago, geographical nature of sources was not wikipedia editors' primary concern. Why should it be now?--Polgraf (talk) 14:17, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What there is is a bunch of sources collected whenever Georgia was listed as in Europe, without any context. Yes, Georgia is partially in Europe, but there is no justification to remove all relevance to Asia whatsoever, which seems to be happening as shown by the IP removal of categories. I mean, even the Bicontinental category was removed! Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Must a continent be identified in the lead? Why not simply "...in the Caucasus region", and elaborate on continental technicalities later, where the issue can be addressed fully. Nightw 11:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
1. Bunch of sources without any context? Could you please elaborate on what kind of context and explanations you require? How about the context and explanations for the CIA/Britannica/NatGeo sources, have you contacted them and asked for reasons as to why they list Georgia as they do? I know that when the UN source was cited here and there no one bothered to mention that their info was compiled for "statistical convenience", that's a lot of "context" to leave out. I do not see why the Europe placement sources should be subjected to any additional requirements although you are free to contact those organizations and determine what was their motivation to say what they do.
2. Yes, the continent must be stated while it can be said that some parts might be considered Asian. Greece has islands right off the Anatolian Peninsula. Strangely, no one mentions that Greece can be considered partly Asian because those islands are right off Asia Minor. Surprisingly, on Europe page this same quality is enough to deem Cyprus Eurasian. If Cyprus can be considered Eurasian because it may be considered an island off western Asia, I do not see why Greece cannot be considered Eurasian because some of its islands are right off Anatolia which is listed as Western Asia. Georgia is held to double standards here. Yes, it is not a EU member and it was not a birthplace of the European civilization like Greece was as the Europe page states but if simple mentioning of possible territorial assignment of lands is enough for one set of countries, it should be for others. I am not even going to mention France which has nearly 88,000 square kilometers - larger than entire Georgia- of metropolitan lands overseas. They are governed as integral parts of the country, just like regions in southern, what appears to be "Asian" Georgia, which at times was under its control, and at others not. --Polgraf (talk) 16:44, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1. Some? What we have to remember about the sources, for both continents, is that often the organisations sourced have to make their choice, often they divide things into Europe and Asia etc. We here do not face that issue. Statistical convenience proves the point, it's often fairly arbitrary, and the clause is just a way to show they don't assign by politics. So without politics, an organisation chose Asia? Simply put, we don't have to say Europe or Asia, like these other sources do. 2. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Greece may have an issue then, and I speculate here, but perhaps it is due to the fact Greece has no mainland asian territory. As for Cyprus, it is described as Eurasian. Speculation again, but no mainland territory on either continent, historical links to Asia, modern links to Europe. This has nothing to do with EU membership. France mentions overseas territories, and has territory indisputably in Europe (unlike Georgia, which by some definition is completely in Asia!) Of course, they could be fixed easily. 3. Also open to Nightw's suggestion, seems feasible, if it will avoid disputes. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked over Georgia disambiguation page and a lot of people are opposing the name Georgia despite country's self-identification because it interferes with their articles. On this page, there is a continuous battle over whether Georgia should be listed as European or not, despite country's self-identification and alot of sorces. So why is it that we Georgians have to always defend everything with our teeth on wikipedia and why do we always have to fear offending someone when we are the ones offended most of the time?Are we second category citizens? On most cases, simply adding possible alternatives (which the article does) would be enough and one would move on. On this, NO, we have to drop the continent name altogether so that some anti-Georgian forces have their way. Identification as European is a matter of historical justice and we will NOT be brushed off just because someone chose a particular mountain or a river as a border for unexplained reasons. This circus has to end --Ludovica91 (talk) 06:46, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have ignored my plea Chipmunkdavis and removed working links from the article. By that you intentionally mixed much more numerous European placement sources with Asia placement sources and yet again pushed your "consensus-based" POV down our throats. As I stated above, that is unacceptable and it is an insult to the entire Georgian nation. Left with a huge Georgia disambiguation page and an article without a continent placement. Makes me feel like we are someone's rejected poor relatives. --Ludovica91 (talk) 13:37, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about how you or anyone else feels. If you must know, I disagree with the Georgia page, but that's not my decision. Noone here is going out to insult Georgians, and that argument won't take you anywhere. Wikipedia is not a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Chipmunk, I am not in any way saying that my emotions or perceived offenses prove anything on wikipedia. On the contrary, I was protesting the fact that you have removed many legitimate sources that place Georgia in Europe to somehow equate it to the Asia sources. The simple truth is that what you did is not fair. And you know what? stop hiding your personal opposition to the page wording behind wikipedia rules and sending me those links WP:rightgreatwrongs because here I was not determining what was right and wrong, but rather what is reasonable and unreasonable based on the sources - which you have removed based on your own preference. --Ludovica91 (talk) 14:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've brought this to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Geopolitical ethnic and religious conflicts#Georgia .28country.29 location. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:14, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Map (again)

For some reason this article seems to attract people who enjoy replacing maps which place Georgia near the center of the image (like nearly all maps in Wikipedia articles dealing with nation-states) with maps that place Georgia unusually at the right-hand edge of the graphic. I think it's appropriate to note here that consensus on this subject was reached many years ago, in favor of a map which did not place Georgia so far near the edge of the graphic -- for some context, see this discussion regarding possible changes to the map from 2008, which revolved around whether Abkhazia and South Ossetia should be cross-hatched or otherwise colored differently than Georgia given their disputed status: [28] Interestingly, User:Satt_2, who was making angry accusations toward me, and at that point was arguing against my perspective on the proposed changes at hand in that discussion, stated "there already is a consensus about the map and it is how it is now." Indeed, that had been the article's map for more than 2 years at that point; even in 2008, consensus for a map placing Georgia near its center had already been long established contra maps which show Georgia (or any other country) situated at an extreme edge.

Now looking through this article's recent history, I see that for part of autumn 2010, the map had shown Georgia near the center, but in orthographic projection, "zoomed out". Prior to September 2010, for a period of more than five years the map had, almost during the entirety of that time with exceptions of short periods in which users made changes which were quickly reverted, shown Georgia near the center, but with a more limited geographic extent to the map, "zoomed in". I am not arguing for or against either projection here, as I see positive and negative aspects to both, but would note that given Georgia's small size, a projection showing Georgia in the context of the entire globe may not be most useful to readers. User:Chipmunkdavis changed to the global-view map on September 9: [29] But I see that the "zoomed out" map was reverted back to the more close-range map on September 26 by an anonymous user: [30] This was changed, without discussion or any attempts to reach consensus on such a change, by User:Thomas Gilling on October 10, to a sort of "worst of both worlds" map, a "zoomed out" projection which also placed Georgia at the extreme right-hand edge (that is, the map showed virtually no territory to the east of Georgia, while stretching so far northwest that Greenland be seen) [31]. This map only remained for two days, and on October 12, User:Politologia, who has made no edits on Wikipedia since 22 Oct, changed it to the present map: [32] Neither of these changes were discussed, and no attempt was made by either user toward reaching consensus regarding changing the orientation of the map in such a drastic way. For the majority of a period of five years until autumn 2010, this article showed a map with Georgia placed near the center -- I am ambivalent regarding exactly which projection we choose to go with, however maps which show Georgia awkwardly placed near the right-hand edge are clearly inappropriate. Adlerschloß (talk) 07:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you are saying but I was not asking for "he did this, she did that" type of explanation. I was asking for a link to an existing consensus (such as a talk page, or some voting history) to prove that there was indeed a consensus. If you think this map is more appropriate for the page because it is at the center of the image, let us judge your augment for its own merits, do not throw word consensus in it please. As for the map placing Georgia in the corner, it is by far not the only one. For example, look at Armenia, it is pretty much in the corner as well. Why single out this page?
Moreover, user:satt2 is a banned user so the statements made by this user about an allegedly existing consensus can hardly serve as credible evidence as you are using it.
Furthermore, for some reason it seems that you are attempting to discredit user:politologia's edits solely based on the fact that he has no edits since October 22; you yourself did not edit since last summer and returned only in February. I do not know why you would throw such irrelevant edit statistics of another in this context if you really want to judge the contributions for their own merits and not on whether the editor dedicates every day of his/her life to wikipedia. Yes, the map placement was undiscusssed but where other map placements discussed? If yes, point me to the discussion, is not this all I have been asking for?--ComtesseDeMingrélie 08:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The point regarding Satt_2 was that this user, who indeed seems to have operated many vandal accounts over the course of many years, was taking an overtly hostile stance toward me, yet still argued that consensus favored the map which was in place at that time (showing Georgia at the map's center, not the right-hand edge). The earliest discussion I can find on this subject now would be from December 2006: [33] I know there have been other discussions over the course of years, and unfortunately I simply don't have the time now to extensively search through the history to find other discussions presently. But the obvious reality remains that the long-term history of this article favors a map with Georgia near the center, not the right-hand edge. I definitely understand your point regarding Armenia, and to make clear that I am not personally "singling out" Georgia on this issue, please see my edit from January 2007: [34] In fact you can see that I created a map specifically for that purpose. I simply have limited time presently and am not able to watch or edit as many articles as I'd like, hence the inconsistently-applied attention. I'd support changing the Armenian map as well. Adlerschloß (talk) 08:39, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see that there has indeed been a discussion on this matter before but I would not say that it shows consensus. One IP complained, you simply made a comment, and then a third user disagreed while alleging sockpuppetry - this is hardly my idea of a consensus if you know what I mean. Again, I was not saying that the discussion did not occur, I was merely pointing out that I was/am not aware of any consensus.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 08:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm open for a discussion here on Talk now regarding various options for maps on Georgia, if we wish to have an extensive discussion on which choice is most appropriate. Those who support the change to a map which shows Georgia at the right-hand edge should feel free to make their case. Adlerschloß (talk) 23:01, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Abkhazia and South Ossetia is recognized countries, like Kosovo. Nicaragua, Russia, Venezuela recognized this. It is enough to indicate this territories like countries. People of these territories did their choice, and we must take this consider. In March will appear a new country - Southern Sudan, and we also will shown this like recognized country.
I'm read about Armenia, and I support this changes too. Wikipedia is not a place for radical, nationalistic, religious and others disputes. We must see facts. EGroup (talk) 21:12, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you look closely, the map I included separates Abkhazia and S. Ossetia with a dotted line. It is not necessary to have all the rainbow colors in the map, after all it is there to show the location of Georgia, and not its possible internal divisions. At the same time I would be wary of comparing the choices of the people of S. Sudan and Abkhazia as in South Sudan hundreds of thousands of people were not expelled in order to influence the results of the recent referendum. But that goes beyond the scope of this discussion.

Also, try not to disturb unrelated users with your complaints. Just because they are in the edit history of the Georgia page does not mean that they are interested in mediating daily disputes which occur with high frequency.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 00:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
User:ComtesseDeMingrelie are you following me? It's not OK!
Was time when in Kosovo also lived Serbs, but it wasn't problem for creating a new country. Was time when in eastern Turkey lived million Armenians, but today it's Turkish main territory where are living just thousand Armenians.
Georgia is the same country like all others, so don't allocate it, like put special map. And I think it's not right show false information. If we were talk about maybe Russia, and if that has dispute territories too, so User:ComtesseDeMingrelie put the map right now. I know about relationships between Russians and Georgians, about conflicts. I live in L.A. and I'm communicate with all. So all of you want to show for all of us, just your political views. EGroup (talk) 08:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On the maps of:
So why on the map of Georgia we don't must marked Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Your country have dispute territories, accept with that. EGroup (talk) 09:07, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I do not know whether this is because of the language barrier or something else but I already told you that the map I placed DOES separate Abkhazia and S. Ossetia with a dotted line. If someone wants to have a closer look, they are more than welcome to check out the separatist divisions already noted on a different map WITHIN the article.
Also, you are not right to assert that it is a standard to mark the separatist regions. For example, Azerbaijan does not have a map separating Karabakh, not even a dotted line. I do not see why everyone is singling out the Georgia page; this seems everyone's favorite. --ComtesseDeMingrélie 15:29, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Relax, Azerbaijan will be have separate map too. We have separate map. I think we must begin discussion about. If you don't want to see map with dotted lines, so begin discussion for changes maps of pages which I wrote above. So because maps of all countries must be shown for one rule, with dotted lines or not. I know examples which not shown in other countries. For examples Darfur in Sudan, and maybe it's wildly, but in the United States is separate territories too, like Lakota people, which propose their country - Republic of Lakotah. So we must talking about that all. EGroup (talk) 16:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A standardised rule on separatist regions is needed, but this talk page is not the place that it can be decided on. I can't think of an appropriate place, (WP:COUNTRIES is rather dead,) but EGroup I'm sure if you ask at a help desk they can direct you to an appropriate location. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think we must show Abkhazia and South Ossetia, because it's self-declared independent states, like Kosovo in Serbia and Taiwan in China, but this territories shown on thats maps.

What about maps other countries, so it must be discussion in their pages, but not here. EGroup (talk) 04:02, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To User:ComtesseDeMingrelie, I put map of Azerbaijan with mark Nagorno-Karabakh dispute territory. And in that page I'm also collide with same problem about put map. Azerbaijani by nationality user, absolutely denies so his country having political and territorial problem in Nagorno-Karabakh. EGroup (talk) 06:42, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And how is that anyone's problem here? We already told you that the problem unresolved for years cannot be resolved on this page.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 14:40, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The map is broken anyway, so I've reverted to the previous for now. A structured discussion on the map is probably needed (maybe an RFC), but this is not it. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:52, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We have no problem! Want u or not, but people in Europe, America, Asia, know about this two self-independent countries, and they know so Georgian government have no control under this lands, like Serbia have no control under Kosovo and mainland China have no control under Taiwan. And when they see Georgian map which put right now in here, they understand "how it may be...Where is Abkhazia? Where is South Ossetia? I know this countries are is, but here?" And they always be ask this questions yet still put this map, because you User:ComtesseDeMingrelie don't want to show that for them!
For example: Abkhazia in territories which make Georgian government. Where is South Ossetia? Where is that on this map, or this? I give a dollar if u find South Ossetia in Administrative map. EGroup (talk) 17:29, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Where are the regions??? The mentioned regions are shown on this map:

This map is self explanatory, has a complete description, and is ALREADY PLACED IN THE ARTICLE. To locate the separatist regions, viewers may refer to this map. The main locator map is not to locate S Ossetia/Abkhazia, it is to locate Georgia because this article is about Georgia. If people want to locate Abkhazia/S. Ossetia, they should feel free to refer to their respective pages, that is why they exist.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 23:37, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Self-Independent, do not confuse with separatist. And yet it's wrong, because still Kosovo mark in main map about Serbia and Taiwan in article about PRC. You like nationalist! EGroup (talk) 08:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument was that it was unfair not to tell people where the aforementioned regions are located. I responded that the map already shows where they are located and for further information one may consult their respective pages, that is all.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 18:48, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

EGroup has made a post here. If anyone wants to follow this up, I suggest they take discussion there. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:37, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Numerous sources place Georgia in Europe such as the European Union [35], the Council of Europe [36], British Foreign and Commonwealth Office [37], World Health Organization [38], World Tourism Organization [39], UNESCO [40], UNICEF [41], UNHCR [42],European Civil Aviation Conference [43], Euronews [44], BBC [45], NATO [46], Russian Foreign Ministry [47], the World Bank [48], Assembly of European Regions [49], International Air Transport Association [50],Oxford Reference Online, OSCE [51], ICRC [52], Salvation Army [53], International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies [54],Council on Foreign Relations [55], United States European Command [56], Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary [57] and www.worldatlas.com.
  2. ^ Please note that some sources place Georgia in Asia. the UN Statistics Department [58] places Georgia in Western Asia for statistical convenience [59]: "The assignment of countries or areas to specific groupings is for statistical convenience and does not imply any assumption regarding political or other affiliation of countries or territories." The CIA World Factbook [60], National Geographic, and Encyclopædia Britannica also place Georgia in Asia.
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