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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 68.7.78.64 (talk) at 17:14, 19 March 2011 (→‎Country-by-Country Protests). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Name Specific Discussions

Agregated some of the discussions regarding the name of the article - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 20:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Name change, still don't get it

After weeks have passed since the name of this article was changed to MENA protests, only the minor protests in Iran was included while all the rest are happening in Arab countries. So, my question is, can anyone tell me why isn't this article called "2011 Arab world protests"? You can always add Iran to the "Impact" page, can't you? 69.31.51.101 (talk) 02:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. Personally, I think after this is over, there will be an article created for "2010-2011 North African revolutions," and then the rest will be put in an "impact"-type article. But yes, right now the focus of the article should certainly be the Arab World, and the title should reflect this. Macarion (talk) 13:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Given the events as they are described in 2011 Iranian protests, I'm inclined to agree. It's a blurry line between 'related' and 'inspired,' and Iran seems to be in the gray area in between. DerekMBarnes (talk) 22:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Iranian protests were not minor; they encompassed tens of thousands at one day of action. Iran is very much a part of this development, it is much more culturally connected to the other protests and is regarded as part of the same region. It would not make sense to include iran instead under the same category as, say, china and not to include it with the rest of the middle east simply because of certain, much less significant ethnic differences with the rest of the middle. None at all. The middle east and arab world are largely interchangeable, but not entirely, and middle east and north africa is much much more exact and accurate.
Re "North African Revolutions", the uprisings in Bahrain and Yemen are extremely significant and clearly connected to and part of the same event as egypt and tunisia. Jordan events are also very signifanct. Many are now predicting that saleh will eventually have to go in yemen. And just because a regime isn't brought down doesn't mean the event isn't just as historically significant.Nwe (talk) 22:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2011 Arab world protests is the way to go. MENA is business speak.--Aa2-2004 (talk) 07:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting title change

Can we please change the title of this article? This has moved far beyond "protests." Macarion (talk) 13:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Revolutions of 2011 is the name I suggest. --Smart30 (talk) 20:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment This is not the way to get things done here, if you want to propose a topic do it by requesting a move be made and consensus can gather from there, otherwise you will have tons of people suggesting topics that were already suggested and consensus was against them. My advice would to be to look through the archives to past discussions on why certin titles were not kept. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - i concur this is not the proper way to propose a title switch.--Smart30 (talk) 21:39, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Azerbaijan and Armenia

There have been protests in both Azerbaijan (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/11/us-azerbaijan-protest-idUSTRE72A43I20110311) and Armenia (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/62983) where anti-government protesters have explicitly linked their protests to protests going on in other states such as Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, etc. Should some info be included about these protests? Should Azerbaijan and Armenia be added to the map? It is arguable whether these countries are MENA countries or not, so... Vis-a-visconti (talk) 00:49, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - This is one of the reasons to expand the article to the Greater Middle-East.--Smart30 (talk) 03:03, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article could perhaps either be re-named to '2010–2011 Greater Middle East protests' or even to '2010–2011 West Asia and North Africa protests'. Vis-a-visconti (talk) 03:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please see above, if you want to propose a title change start a move request to get consensus, there has already been a war raged on the title lets not have another one. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I second what Smart30 said. These simply aren't MENA issues anymore...they're almost all of Asia, and certainly a vast majority of the Greater Middle East. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 19:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Support - I would support '2010–2011 Greater Middle East protests' as a new title for the page, although strictly speaking, I don't think a change is absolutely necessary in order to include Armenia and Azerbaijan; Turkey has a significant Armenian minority and it's considered part of the Middle East, and Azerbaijan shares a name with provinces of Iran (which also boasts a sizable Azeri minority). Geopolitically, they're closely linked to the rest of the Middle East, and the only reason they're sometimes left out is because there's a popular insistence on identifying every former Soviet socialist republic as such. -Kudzu1 (talk) 12:35, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done with consensus. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We need a map change to reflect the agreement. Somalia should be re-colored and Armenia put in Orange, Azerbaijan in yellow.--Smart30 (talk) 01:16, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

already in impact article

Adding Armenia and Azerbaijan to the map for this article seems fine to me.

However, adding prose (text) sections to this MENA article would mean recycling the unending discussion of "which geographically further locations are 'related' to the Tunisia/Egypt revolutions? Where do we put them if the 'relations' are existent but not so strong (well RS'd)?" After much wasted energy in AfD's, we finally converged on the "Impact..." article. My suggestion: first of all, add notable developments to:

At the moment these are placed (arbitrarily) in the Asia section there, please discuss on Talk:Impact_of_2010–2011_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_protests arguments for/against shifting to the Europe section. AFAIK either would be acceptable (based on wikipedia regional templates).

Secondly, if the events in one or either become notable enough, then they can split off "Impact..." into their own articles.

Boud (talk) 15:33, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why you put this title ?

why you don't change it to Arab world protests , it's shorter !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.248.98.125 (talk) 13:27, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I couldn't help but laugh when I read this comment and thought back to all the acrimony that title created. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:57, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you should read the discussion above. Loro-rojo (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests → Arab Spring — Simpler

Oppose

Oppose: it jst becuase something is simple doesnt mean its correct. the name we have is the most accurate and NPOV. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 22:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, as per the following reasons regarding article title policy:

  • Recognizability - not recognizable by most as the term has rarely been used in global media.
  • Precision - ambiguous, does not properly identify topic.
  • Common names: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." This is not the case for "Arab Spring."
  • NPOV: Non-neutral ('Spring' carries a culturally positive connotation), not common enough to override.

The name we have is long, but neutral and accurate. DerekMBarnes (talk) 23:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And it began in the winter anyway, not spring. Jmj713 (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think anyone voting against moving the article cares what it goes down in history as. The point in question is whether that name is used enough now to justify renaming the article. If that term does become widespread, I will happily change my vote. --Khajidha (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This term is not in widespread enough use to justify having it as the page title. --Khajidha (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose How many people use that term? – Muboshgu (talk) 01:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. We presently have 6 references in the article that use the name "Arab Spring". Is it widely enough used? Google on "arab+spring" 2011 gives "About 435,000 results" but "middle+east+protests" 2011 gives "About 2,870,000 results" on the first page and e.g. "Page 16 of about 6,650,000 results" on later pages. So "Arab Spring" is widely used, but it seems to be about an order of magnitude less common than one of the more descriptive names, at least for the moment. One WP:NAME criterion that would favour "Arab Spring" is the conciseness criterion. Prediction: i suspect that conciseness could be a factor in the future evolution of the names for this topic. How many people say United Mexican States when talking about a certain country in North America? Maybe try for this name again in 6 months' time? Boud (talk) 16:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't there also be a section highlighting the countries without internal unrest?

Such as Qatar and the United Arab Emirates (I think those are the only two), it would help shed light on how they were able to keep their countries stabilized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.107.161.231 (talk) 02:29, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Qatar/UAE

What is keeping these countries protest-free?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The main reason for an absence of protests in Qatar and UAE is general satisfaction with the present governments. Unlike their neighbors where significant percentages of the populations hate or dislike the regimes, most Emiratis and most Qataris support their regimes. It's only a handful of intellectuals seeking democratic reform through dialogue in the UAE and total silence in Qatar. --Smart30 (talk) 00:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bahrain

Should we create a Category:2011 Bahraini protests subcategory? We currently have three articles for it, 2011 Bahraini protests , 2011 Bahrain Grand Prix and Pearl Roundabout... But with the inundation of Bahrain with Saudi police troops, that should change in the future. (such as an article about the Saudi operation in Bahrain) 65.95.13.139 (talk) 05:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - This is a good idea as well as the article about the Saudi invasion of Bahrain.--Smart30 (talk) 08:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 19:06, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The "Saudi invasion" of Bahrain seems to be the use of the Peninsula Shield Force in Bahrain. The 2011 Saudi Arabian protests have developed into dual-aim protests: freeing prisoners-held-without-trial and opposing the entry of the Peninsula Shield Force into Bahrain. So anyone interested in adding more info about the "Saudi invasion of Bahrain" probably should consider working on the Peninsula Shield Force article. Boud (talk) 16:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Non-UN Members?!

How on earth can Armenia and Azerbaijan be described as non-UN members? I appreciate that this section is intended to broaden the scope of the article to protest regions not represented by by the arbitrary "Middle East and North Africa" article name, however, "non-UN" is simply nonsensical, not least because Armenia and Azerbaijan have been UN members since 1992, and additionally because, despite the summary section's description of "non-UN" as a "region", such an epithet is evidently neither informative nor beneficial.

Laika1097 (talk) 23:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests → 2010-2011 Greater Middle East protests — "Greater Middle East" might better describe these protests than "Middle East and North Africa" at this point, plus it's shorter. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:27, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose When I asked this before an editor came up with saying that the middle east is the middle east, it is a broad word and applies to the middle east, the greater middle east, and areas sometimes associated with the Middle East so in a way it is a bigger area of scope. Another reason to oppose is that the Greater middle east is a G8 definition and thus not a worldwide view, Egypt in that context is also not part of the Greater Middle East. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:35, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

.

IMO, I think something to the effect of "2010-2011 Tunisian Revolutionary Wave" would more accurately reflect what's going on here - a movement sparked by the Tunisia self-immolation. After all, the opener actually links to Revolutionary wave. ZeLonewolf (talk) 02:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose "Greater Middle East" is a controversial term coined by the Bush administration, and its use would be innapropriate here. Countries such as Morocco (which, it should be remembered, is to the west of France) and Libya (much closer to Italy than Iran) and other states of the Maghreb region are historically, culturally, politically, historically and geographically considered North African, not Middle Eastern in any extension of the term. The Celestial City (talk) 11:17, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I certainly agree that a change of name is an absolute requirement since restricting the scope of an article to arbitrary, geographical constructions is most unhelpful -If we were to change the name to "2010-2011 Greater Middle East Protests" or similar, would we then change the article name to "2010-2011 Southern European, Central Asian, North African and Middle Eastern protests" if Greek and Kazakh protesters suddenly joined the fray, claiming to be inspired by Egypt and Tunisia? We've already had one name change, and that did not help us in the least. Until a definite name is agreed upon by historians, the media and analysts, all Wikipedians can do is to record events as they happen and not define them according to their own agendas. Hence why I support ZeLonewolf's proposal of "2010-2011 Tunisian Revolutionary Wave" or similar. This will allow coverage of all protest movements defined by WP:RS's as connected to the Jasmine Revolution and not impose artificial limitations. After all, this is the most descriptive title we have; "2010-2011 Middle East and North Africa protests" does not imply any common source or link barring geography. This would be a final solution to all this name wrangling, hence why I will submit a final name change request to that effect. I look forward to hearing the community consensus.

Laika1097 (talk) 15:05, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Syria: Major or Minor protests?

We need consensus as to whether Syria should be considered major or minor protests. A user unilaterally changed Syria to orange on the map and updated the table (but did not change the lead). We should compare Syria to other yellow and orange countries to determine whether or not orange is an appropriate classification. Let's get consensus on this. ZeLonewolf (talk) 05:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Minor - at the present time, my verdict is Minor. It is nothing compared to those in Yemen & Bahrain. (also Iraq). However - it's remarkably similar to Morocco's protests (which are currently also minor).--Smart30 (talk) 07:40, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Major - What is happening in Syria today is major if you look at the country's history. 40 years of one party rule, no demonstrations in Damascus since the 1980s. Ban Ki-moon and Barack Obama have commented on the attacks against civilians. Protests underway in the largest cities in the country. The regime has arrested hundreds of people, hence the well known regime critic profiles. Several dead as well.--Tonemgub2010 (talk) 13:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please constrain your analysis to comparisons with other orange or yellow countries. ZeLonewolf (talk) 14:12, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Country-by-Country Protests

I think an edit is needed on countries section. Let's rename it to "Summary by Location", move the Palestinian territories and Western Sahara there and get rid of the Somaliland and Northern Cyprus sections as they have nothing to do with this protest wave (they are part of other long-standing disputes). "Non UN Members" doesn't make sense as a section. ZeLonewolf (talk) 14:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To give some context here, I'll review how this section got started:
 • Some "countries" had activity but there was discussion that it wasn't clear or wasn't felt to have the same motivations as the rest of the items on this page, such as taking preventative measures without popular protests, having protests that were about similar things but were not directly motivated by Tunisia, or were protests that were not about changing the current government, etc. (To be honest, I can't exactly recall the details of why people felt these places were different, but there was discussion at the time, which can probably be found in the archives). These were places that didn't quite fit in with the main body of the article, but it didn't seem should be left out. The section was originally titled "Other Countries In the Region" or something like that.
 • This section originally contained Norther Cyprus, Palestinian Territories, Western Sahara, and Somalia. I was the one who made a semantic edit that I now regret changing the title from "Other Countries" to "Other Territories", since 3 of the 4 were not recognized countries. This caused the purpose of having these other areas in a separate section to be confused, as people thought they were isolated based on international recognition, rather than a distinction in the events that were happening these areas. Hence the change from "territories" to "non-UN members", which didn't really make sense.
 • If it is still felt that these areas deserve distinction from the main body, then a better title should be chosen for this section. If this distinction is no longer felt necessary, then they should be merged.
--68.7.78.64 (talk) 17:14, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The name should be changed to "2010-2011 Middle East and North African unrest"

No longer is the Middle East and North African world facing simple protests, but now it is facing, and already has faced, revolutions and a civil war which has been seen in Tunisia, Egypt, and most recently, Libya. It would be unfitting to keep referring to the wave of unrest as "protests" while three countries have taken the next step up from protests. Hence, this article's name should change the word "protests" to "unrest" which would accurately refer to protests, revolutions, and civil wars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.75.104.248 (talk) 16:40, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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