Talk:Joseph Priestley

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Languages

Do we know what is meant by the "Chaldean" and "Syrian" languages? Chaldean links to Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, but I find it hard to believe an 18th-century Englishman would learn a contemporary language spoken by Middle Eastern peasants. The Chaldean disambig page says "Chaldean language" is used in older source to refer to Urartian, but that wasn't discovered until after Priestley's death. However, Chaldean Neo-Aramaic does say that "Chaldean language" can also refer to Old Aramaic, and I suspect that (or more specifically Biblical Aramaic) is what Priestly learned. As for "Syrian", I suspect what he actually learned is Syriac, a later stage of Aramaic than Old Aramaic and the language the Peshitta translation of the Bible is written in. +Angr 14:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I will leave it to Awadewit to confirm (as she will have the sources) but Biblical Aramaic and Syriac makes much more sense for a theologian. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 14:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Another Building

This was just added: In 2009, Queen Mary, University of London renamed a Biochemistry building 'The Joseph Priestl[e]y Building'. A quick Google search reveals that the Queen Mary college does indeed have a Priestley building, but I could not find anything online about a 2009 renaming. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 12:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, not the most crucial piece of information. We have to be choosy in this article, as it is so long. Awadewit (talk) 13:39, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed - I did find a ref to the 2009 name change here Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Homerton

From Homerton: "Another eminent minister was the formidable polymath, Joseph Priestley, discoverer of oxygen. When his support of dissent led to the riots named after him, he fled Birmingham and headed for London; he was appointed minister here in 1793. A blue plaque marks the site of his house on the corner of Clapton Passage and Lower Clapton Road. Priestley said of his time here, "On the whole I spent my life more happily at Hackney than I had ever done before". The meeting house is now used as a factory."

Needs to be added here? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

This is a FA and as such needs refs to reliable sources for new claims like this - I have reverted the addition accordingly. Wikipedia is not a reliable source - the section in the Homerton article is not sourced, and in the direct quote attributed to Priestley, he himself refers to it as Hackney, not Homerton. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:50, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Moreover, not every quote from Priestley can be included in this article, even if it were sourced. We have to be discriminating. Awadewit (talk) 06:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

That seems quite fair, but unfortunate that two articles can appear to contradict each other. It's sometimes easy to forget that Wikipedia is not a reliable source. At other times it's very easy. I had thought "his house on the corner of Clapton Passage and Lower Clapton Road" was a little more precise that "near Hackney" ? A blue plaque there seemed to confer some authenticity. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I see here that there are, in fact, two plaques for Priestley in Hackney. Perhaps these could be used to pin down the geographical location(s)? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The brown plaque at the corner of Clapton Passage and Lower Clapton Road seems to be just about visible on Google Street View. It's above the sign for "Danny's Motor Shop" at co-ords 51.5523, -0.0526. So I suggest changing ".. the Priestleys eventually settled in Clapton < !-- Do not link unless you know if it is Upper or Lower Clapton -->, near Hackney.. " to ".. the Priestleys eventually settled in a house on the Lower Clapton Road, near Hackney..". Martinevans123 (talk) 19:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Or what about ".. the Priestleys eventually moved to 113 Lower Clapton Road, in Lower Clapton, near Hackney.. "? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Ram Place, site of the Meeting House (and where the blue plaque now is) is further south, the other side of Morning Lane, but there is currently no Google Street view. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for finding these plaques and for the reference. I guess the question for me is two-fold. First off, was the street name the same in 1793 as it is today? I know that the name of the street he lived on in Northumberland, Pennsylvania has changed since Priestley lived there (it was not called "Priestley Avenue" then ;-) ). Second, even if the street name is the same, is that level of detail needed here? The street name and number of his Pennsylvania house is not given in this article, for example (though it is in Joseph Priestley House). Since there is not a separate article on his Hackney house, should the street address be given (perhaps in a footnote / reference)? Finally, it seems that today it would be better to describe it as "the Priestleys eventually settled in Lower Clapton, a district in Hackney" (it now reads " the Priestleys eventually settled in Clapton, near Hackney")? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the house number does seems a little over detailed. And a footnote might be useful, perhaps mentioning the plaque(s). I would be surprised if those street names had changed, but I shall endeavour to confirm that they have not. And agree about the description of location. Although Clapton, Hackney and Homerton all seem to overlap in some ways, Hackney is the Borough. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:08, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Have now added detail and footnote with link. Regarding the location of 113 Lower Clapton Road, the link explicitly states "the site of" - so the road name and/or number, as well as the building itself of course, could easily have been different in 1791. I'm not sure if any of the biographies would help. Maps of that era, if such still exist, might need to be consulted. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The lead image situation

So I've looked through the archives (including the RfC) and I can't see any conclusion other than that the primary reason that this article doesn't follow the layout guidelines used by practically every single other biography on the project (especially FAs; and I am well aware that there are exceptions, but they're firmly in the minority and none have been challenged so often) is this has been strongly opposed for the last three years by a handful of editors, ostensibly on the back of an extremely lightweight consensus between two of them way back then. This goes hand-in-hand with the deletion of the infobox, which was done on the even more specious grounds that one editor in 2005 didn't like infoboxes.

I would far rather not make this personal, but it is evident that this is a case of people assuming too close stewardship of an article based on the "local consensus" fallacy countered at WP:CONLIMITED.

A history of the discussion:

2005

Hoary (talk · contribs) removes the infobox for no reason other than personal preference. Awadewit opposes this but not strongly.

June 2007

Awadewit (talk · contribs) moves the image to the left hand side. Hoary opposes this, but not strongly.

October 2007

Awadewitt first uses the "consensus has been reached" line to both remove the infobox and move the image. Note that only two editors were involved in that discussion, and that it was given scant discussion: nevertheless, no attempt is made to reevaluate that decision, only to consider it settled.

November 2007

BrE is opposed on the grounds that the article was originally written in AmE. Awadewit refers to a "bloodbath" elsewhere as having settled this for her, but does not oppose a change so long as someone else does the work.

March 2008

Ruhrfisch (talk · contribs) uses the "hashed out before" argument regarding the image placement. Finell (talk · contribs) uses the "passed FA with it on the left" argument for the first time. Awadewitt now states that "this debate has already been hashed out multiple times on this talk page, at FAC, and at the MOS talk page and come to the same conclusion". Note that the only one of those debates which actually mentioned Priestley was a quick discussion between Hoary and Awadewitt herself, as is pointed out in that discussion: nevertheless, Awadewit states that because "this article is relatively quiet, so I doubt that there would be an "original consensus" of more than two for anything". However, despite it having never been discussed since (it was shot down summarily on the only previous occasion it came up), it has already been described as settled for good several times.

June 2009

The RfC. By far the most vocal opposition to restoring right alignment comes from the aforementioned editors: those four make up the vast majority of the text supporting the left alignment (close to 90% of it).

July 2009

Awadewit insists twice that as the RfC closed with no consensus that change is forbidden (literally: "the image must stay where it is for now"). Finell now argues that it is a minority of editors who are opposed to the left alignment.

It cannot be seriously argued that were it not for the long-term vociferous support of only a handful of editors closely involved with this article that the image alignment would not have been a settled issue in favour of right alignment by now.

Proposals:

1. The image is moved back to the right. Whether the portrait faces to one side or not, it is evident that the effect is not egregious (multiple editors have pointed out that it is actually looking to the left) and that the current layout is unnecessarily jarring to readers expecting the usual layout for article lede sections. While there are exceptions, even amongst FA articles, they are far less common and none seem as disputed.
2. An infobox is re-added. Over at {{infobox person}} we've done a lot of work recently on a new plug-in structure which makes it far easier to create modular infoboxes which can cope with people with varied lives.
3. The article is converted to British English, with the exception of the citations obviously.

I'm happy to do all the donkey work for this myself, simply to settle it for good.

If anyone thinks that this deserves wider attention feel free to alert appropriate WikiProjects or notice boards. Should it not be possible to agree to this through an unstructured discussion I'll open another RfC.

Once again, apologies in advance for having to pick people out personally here, but it's the only way to ensure that the history of the debate is accurately characterised.

Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

• I can no longer devote any time to this discussion. Awadewit (talk) 15:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

• As a newcomer to this article, and one not involved in any previous discussions, I must admit that when I first saw this page I was pleasantly surprised by the novel layout. The clear and striking effect is, I think, helped by such a clear and striking portrait image. How good, I thought, that Wikipedia can accommodate such layout style variety, especially for an FA article. But I was soon rather dismayed by the lack of an info box and was surprised that one could not be found even lower down in the article. Having now read a very clear summary of how this situation has arisen, I fully support all three proposals. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:07, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

• Since Priestley was a nonconformist, I have always liked the fact that his article is a bit different. There is no requirement for an infobox, and the MOS allows a left-justified lead image. I have no problem with switching the article to British English as long as a) I do not have to do the work, b) someone who knows BE well checks the article after conversion, and c) the change does not degrade the article's prose quality. I think there should be an RfC with two separate questions for the alignment and infobox. I also think it would be helpful if the infobox were prepared ahead of time (here or on a subpage) so that we see what is being proposed. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

• I've watched this article on and off for some time now. I don't like that it has an infobox. But if it passed FA without an infobox, then it must be okay without an infobox. Also the discussion over the placement of the portrait of Priestly in the lead seems rather pointless. I think the most important factor in the FA status of this article is the content of the text. What the article says is far more important than the layout of the pictures and the presence or lack of an infobox. As for converting it to British English? I say go for it. I think most English readers should be able to read American English or British English with equal ease. Dincher (talk) 00:18, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

• Left-alignment also crops up at List of works by Joseph Priestley, Mary Martha Sherwood, John Knox, and John Calvin. Unsurprisingly, many of the primary contributors to these excellent articles are the very same "handful of vociferous authors" supporting left-image alignment during the RfC. My reading of the "consensus" from the RfC was that (1) there is an inherent inconsistency or conflict in the MOS:IMAGE where left-alignment is justified under some aesthetic considerations but it recommends that all lead images should be right aligned and (2) given how this lead image alignment issue affects other articles, MOS:IMAGE should be clarified. However, Awadewit didn't want to commit to mediation or participate in a discussion of that policy, so I let it die. My position remains the same and I doubt that another RfC on this article would accomplish much: I suggest taking it to MOS:IMAGE and clarifying this once and for all. I'm indifferent towards imposing infoboxes on articles, but would certainly include them on any I was writing or demand them on any article I was reviewing. Madcoverboy (talk) 15:55, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

• Please note that none of the three proposals (left/right image alignment, infoboxes, BE/AE) are based on Wikipedia policies. So why spend so much effort imposing minor guidelines on articles that took much time and effort to create and contribute and that are widely appreciated by the readership as they are? In my opinion, stop focusing on these tiny issues, leave these articles alone, and spend more time creating quality content which Wikipedia badly needs. --RelHistBuff (talk) 08:51, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
  • "Rules for thee, but not for me." Madcoverboy (talk) 19:42, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

• Since this issue of whether or not left-aligned lead images are allowed by the MoS is a problem across several different articles, a larger discussion on this policy should take place. The MoS seems pretty clear to me as it says to "Start an article with a right-aligned lead image or infobox" and nowhere does it say that a left-aligned lead image is allowed. But if that is not clear enough for some people then MOS:IMAGE should be clarified as to avoid any ambiguity in this area. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:01, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
  • The left-aligners have repeatedly made it clear that they will not abide by guidelines or consensus elsewhere under WP:IAR (along with arguments evoking ownership). Nevertheless, I fully support making the good-faith effort to clarify the guideline at MOS:IMAGE and then pursuing other dispute-resolution mechanisms for enforcing common-sense standardization across encyclopedia articles. Madcoverboy (talk) 20:16, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
    • Oh and one more thing. I also think the article should have an infobox. All biographical articles, in general, should have an infobox. Unfortunately, the left-aligned lead image makes placement of an infobox particularly difficult (which is probably why the article has gone for so long without one). Rreagan007 (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The infobox point is a good one. Perhaps it should be emphasised more in the next annual Joseph Priestley's Article Looks Strange discussion. In the meantime, I have a request, one I hope won't start a new debate: Could the table of contents be moved to the right if the image is going to be on the left? There's a sizable gap between the end of the text and the beginning of the contents due to my monitor's size (1920x1080p), which could be solved rather easily. I don't want to offend anyone's sense of aesthetics though. Recognizance (talk) 22:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

List of works

The List of works by Joseph Priestley is linked at least twice in the present article. One of those times is in an inappropriate self-referential style in the article body. Another is in the "external links" section. Neither or these are appropriate; if we are linking to other articles, we should use the standard methods (either templates such as {{see also}}, or the "see also" section of an article). I've raised the issue of the idiosyncratic naming of the section in question on that other article's talk page, as the external links one was broken due to someone having retitled said section. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I've attempted to fix the link here in the "Selected works" section, and removed the 2 selfreferential links.

I've responded at the List article's talkpage regarding the problems there. (that EL section should probably be merged into the rest of the list there). -- Quiddity (talk) 20:21, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, Chris, I am sick to death of your efforts to, what seem to me, make this article worse. Several of us worked very hard over the course of a year to put together a carefully-researched, well-illustrated and impeccably laid out article. Every few months you come by and attempt, under the guise of the "rules", to make the article harder to readers to use. So, for example, you removed the link in the "External links" section to a list of Priestley's works. I honestly don't care if this isn't a typical external link - this is incredibly helpful for readers. Many readers will want to know where Priestley's works can be found - we have now given them a shortcut a list. Please listen to the reasoning for the way things are structured here. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 02:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I would remind all contributors to assume others are acting in acting in good faith and that Wikipedia contributors are editors, not authors, and no one, no matter how skilled, has the right to act as if they are the owner of a particular article. Madcoverboy (talk) 19:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

. I don't see any evidence that this was requested by a reader who thought that this was unclear; rather, it seems like one of the idiosyncracies which survives in this article by fiat of its maintainers. There is no need to have the same link here twice, as you have just reverted back in. This should be removed again. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

You are deliberately misunderstanding me. I am talking of the reader in the abstract. And the link should not be removed. Please stop attempting to make the article less useful in a misbegotten MOS crusade. A link to a list of Priestley's works online is, without a doubt, a very useful link. Awadewit (talk) 19:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

"The reader in the abstract" is quite indistinguishable from a personal opinion as to how to present something, unless there is evidence that a third party has done just that. It is true that the link is useful, but presenting it twice (once using an inappropriate self-reference) is unnecessary. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:55, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, I see two different links. The first one is a standard "Main article" link, the List of works by Joseph Priestley. The second one points to a different list. These are works that are available online. And appropriately, this second link is exactly in the right section i.e., "External links". The same list could have been reproduced in this article; no one could argue against that. But what for? Keeping the list of online works in one place is easier to maintain. Simply placing a link here is a clever solution. --RelHistBuff (talk) 21:31, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with RelHistBuff; this approach seems sensible to me. Mike Christie (talk) 23:49, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I also agree with RelHistBuff. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Why does the same article need to be linked twice? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:55, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I explained above. They are two different links: one to the article, the other to a specific section. In any case, according to WP:REPEATLINK it says, "In general, link only the first occurrence of an item. This is a rule of thumb that has many exceptions..." (emphasis mine). --RelHistBuff (talk) 08:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

File:A Word of Comfort2.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:A Word of Comfort2.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 24, 2011. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2011-03-24. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng {chat} 22:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Picture of the day

A 1790 caricature of British natural philosopher and theologian Joseph Priestley. He is depicted preaching from atop a pile of his own works, in a pulpit made from a barrel inscribed "FANATICISM", to Charles James Fox seated in a box pew. Fox asks, "Pray, Doctor is there such a thing as a Devil?" Priestley responds "No", as the devil himself announces, "If you had eyes behind, you'd know better my dear Doctor". The cartoon is a satire on the efforts of Fox to get the Test and Corporation Acts repealed.Etching: William Dent; Restoration: Lise Broer

I have tried to expand the blurb somewhat, in line with the descriprion given at the file source. But a bit concerned that without any mention of the Test and Corporation Acts, the whole point of the cartoon will be lost. And of course the topical appearance of the Prince of Wales (George IV) and Maria Fitzherbert, in the Fleur-de-Lys box pew at the back, really also deserve a mention. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Big Picture of Descartes

That isn't a picture of Priestley is it, it's Descartes. I for one don't know how to change it.