Talk:Jesus
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jesus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Q1: What should this article be named?
A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname. Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates?
A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format. Q3: Did Jesus exist?
A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.
Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian?
A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:
Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others?
A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:
Q6: Why is the infobox so brief?
A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.
Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus?
A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions. Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences?
A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians. Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus?
A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion. Q10: Why does the article state "[m]ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this?
A10: Wikipedia requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.
References
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Recent Archive log
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 97 Removal of spurious representations of Jesus' appearance, trilemma, Mandaean views,scripture removed from historical Jesus section, Vanadalism, Pictures of Jesus, The Truths About Yeshua, Ehrman on harmonies
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 98 Proposal, Possible NPOV Violation in the Geneology Section, first paragraph, at least three years in Jesus' Ministry, this article is too big.
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 99 Literature to be mentioned, Timeline of birth, four gospels, lead; nontrinitarianism, historical Jesus, Jesus as myth, Manichaeism, year of jesus's birth, Edit at top of Jesus page, Colored Yeshua, Image of Jesus which currently exists, Proposal
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 100 Historical Jesus, The To-Do Section, commenting out instead of deleting, 2008 Islamic movie on Jesus, Historical section/Christian views section, Laundry list of non-history scholars and works (alternative proposal), Its latin, isnt it?, this page may display a horizontal scroll bar in some browsers, Proposal on archives, First Section, The historical Jesus
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 101 Edit war over capitalization, Historical Evidence for Jesus' Homosexuality, Carlaude's Majority view, What exactly did Jesus save us from and how?; Carlaude's Majority view part two., Title, PRJS, Dazed and Confused, Why was Jesus baptised?, Dates, Infobox vs. the historical Jesus
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 102 religion founder, Other parameters, He is not God But rather a Demigod, Heavily christian-centric article, Jesus' Birthdate, Jesus in Scientology, Jesus name - Yeshua in Hebrew, means "Salvation" in English
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 103 Writing clean-up, Jesus name in Sanskrit, Reforem Judaism, Jesus and Manichaeism, Bertrand Russell and Friedrich Nietzsche, Recent removal, NPOV, Detail about Buddhist views of Jesus that does not make sense, The Religious perspectives section
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 104 Black Jesus, "Autobiography" of Jesus, Genealogy - Via What Father?, Addition to "Genealogy & Family", Resurrection, according to whom?, Bhavishya Purana, Christian history category, Quick Comment, BC/BCE?, The Truth, Was he any good at his day job?, In Popular Culture, jesus picture, views on Jesus and Muhamma, Occupation, New Dead Sea Discovery- Gabriel's Revelation, Some comments
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 105 Genealogy "reloaded", Place of birth, Which religions?, was jesus ever bar miztvahed?, Bot report : Found duplicate references !, Jesus and the lost tomb, Some believe that Jesus was of middle eastern ethnicity, and not a caucasian, Mispelled cat at the bottom of this talk page, Harmony, Dating system, "Transliteration"
- Talk:Jesus/Archive 106 8 B.C., ref name="HC13", Cause of death, Renewed Discussion Concerning AD/CE debate
Subpage Activity Log
- Discussion on Judaism's views moved to Talk:Jewish views of Jesus/Judaism's views of Jesus.
- Buried vs. entombed," alleged "lack of sources" archived to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro.
- New subpage created, Talk:Jesus/Historical Jesus, with several models of the historical Jesus and a list of sources.
- Baptism, blasphemy and sedition discussions moved to Talk:Jesus/2nd Paragraph Debate.
- Sudden move of Christ: discussion moved to Talk:Christ.
- Disputed tag and "Christian Mythology": moved to [Christian Mythology Talk] for relevancy reasons
- User:Andrew c/Jesus: sorting data b/w New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christian views of Jesus#Life, and Jesus#Life and teachings based on the Gospels.
Killed by Jews
It should be mentioned that Jesus was killed and persecuted by Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 17.197.15.239 (talk) 22:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- New stuff goes at the bottom. The Bible says it was Roman soldiers that beat and hung Him on the cross... The whole "Jews killed Jesus" deal kinda forgets that He, His disciples, His family, and undoubtedly some of His friends, were Jewish. The claim that the Jews killed Jesus also has a chicken-and-egg relation to anti-Semitism. At most, certain people who happened to be Jewish wanted Him killed. So did a lot of Romans, but noone blames the Italians. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not "the Jews", but the Sumerian-Babylonian Talmudist Sanhedrin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.153.221.249 (talk) 10:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- The Talmud was written between 200-500 CE. Kinda hard to be Talmudist in Jesus's time. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Plus, consider how long ago the Sumerians disappeared. But the real point is this: Occupied peoples always respond to occupation in different ways and one way is collaboration. This was true of both Poles and Jews under Nazi rule (and I specify Poles because they were the only Europeans to stand up to Hitler, and Jews because they ended up loosing the most). It was the same under Roman times. The Romans created the Sanhedrin as a puppet government. Later the rabbis of the Talmud rewrote this history of the Sanhedrin to fit their view of Jewish history which emphasizes an institutional continuity from Moses to the present. But according to all contemporary sources the Sanhedrin was simply an instrument of Roman rule. Even so, the Gospels are clear that Pilate made the decision. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- "I specify Poles because they were the only Europeans to stand up to Hitler" As a Brit, I rather object to this comment! Great Britain is now, and was in WWII, a European nation. Oops! Forgot to sign Hundovir (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I meant that the Poles did not sign the Munich Pact, sorry I was too general/vague Slrubenstein | Talk 21:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
- Actually there is no benefit in mentioning who executed Jesus as his death was predestined beforehand. Brandmeister t 00:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
- If you believe in predestination. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
- Actually there is no benefit in mentioning who executed Jesus as his death was predestined beforehand. Brandmeister t 00:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I meant that the Poles did not sign the Munich Pact, sorry I was too general/vague Slrubenstein | Talk 21:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
- "I specify Poles because they were the only Europeans to stand up to Hitler" As a Brit, I rather object to this comment! Great Britain is now, and was in WWII, a European nation. Oops! Forgot to sign Hundovir (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
- Plus, consider how long ago the Sumerians disappeared. But the real point is this: Occupied peoples always respond to occupation in different ways and one way is collaboration. This was true of both Poles and Jews under Nazi rule (and I specify Poles because they were the only Europeans to stand up to Hitler, and Jews because they ended up loosing the most). It was the same under Roman times. The Romans created the Sanhedrin as a puppet government. Later the rabbis of the Talmud rewrote this history of the Sanhedrin to fit their view of Jewish history which emphasizes an institutional continuity from Moses to the present. But according to all contemporary sources the Sanhedrin was simply an instrument of Roman rule. Even so, the Gospels are clear that Pilate made the decision. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- The Talmud was written between 200-500 CE. Kinda hard to be Talmudist in Jesus's time. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not "the Jews", but the Sumerian-Babylonian Talmudist Sanhedrin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.153.221.249 (talk) 10:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Apocalypse?
In the introduction there is the sentence: "Most contemporary scholars of the Historical Jesus consider him to have been an independent, charismatic founder of a Jewish restoration movement, anticipating an imminent apocalypse." It appears to be sourced to Theissen and Merz. The part I have a problem with is the "anticipating an imminent apocalypse" part, and wonder whether this part is itself in the source, and what specifically they mean by it.
The idea of the gospel (good news) is not entirely compatible with apocalyptic prophesies, and in any case its not clear to what "imminent apocalypse" the author (of the passage or of the source) is referring to. Was Jesus' claimed "apocalypse" referring to Rome's destruction of Jerusalem, or to later calamities, or to some imminent future event as some interpret the Book of Revelations? While apocalyptic predictions are certainly present among many of the clergy, it is a bit editorial and out of place here to suggest that Jesus himself was an apocalyptic. -161
- The history showed that roughly 2,000 years after Jesus no apocalypse has occurred, so indeed the anticipated apocalypse wasn't "imminent". Jesus couldn't commit such a mistake, so either a clarification or removal is needed. Brandmeister t 22:39, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- One very significant scholarly view is indeed that Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher, expecting the end of time (not just any calamity) to come very soon indeed. Indeed, if you look at the New Testament, there is a distinct development from "don't bother to marry or educate kids, the end of the world is near" in earlier texts to a later position that is much more compatible with standard Greco-Roman family values. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:54, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand how this clarifies the issue. Does anyone have access to the cited source, and can they quote parts of that source which support the notion that Jesus was an apocalyptic? When that's done, we can move on toward treating the issue of balance and whether or not the one source is sufficient attribution for the way the article is currently written. It is my view that the passage is misinformed, or simply incorrect, and the one source may be out of balance with mainstream views. -67.161.54.63 (talk) 09:13, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
- One very significant scholarly view is indeed that Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher, expecting the end of time (not just any calamity) to come very soon indeed. Indeed, if you look at the New Testament, there is a distinct development from "don't bother to marry or educate kids, the end of the world is near" in earlier texts to a later position that is much more compatible with standard Greco-Roman family values. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:54, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Lead dates
The Possible year of birth and Possible year and place of death sections suggest the year ranges 7–2 BC/BCE and 33-36 AD/CE respectively, which embrace both the majority and minority views. I think the lead would benefit from reflecting that. Brandmeister t 22:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, there is certainly need for more consistency. I am not sure if the general convention is to use ranges or circa, so if ranges are to be used, I would suggest 7-2 but 30-36 for the death given that there are scholars who adhere to the 30 date. There are actually scholars who will swear on the grave of their dearly departed that the crucifixion was 37 AD/CE, but very few do that. If circa is to be used 5 and 33 will be the suitable midpoints of those ranges. Whichever way you want to change it should be fine, I think, depending on what the general conventions are. History2007 (talk) 21:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think (7–2 BC/BCE – 30–36 AD/CE) in the first line might be just making it more difficult for readers to parse, and c. does fine there. I see no problem using the ranges in the infobox.--JimWae (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, specially with all those citations there, it is hard to see. How about using c. 5 and c. 33 and moving on? History2007 (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think the ranges indicate the opinions more clearly than c, but wouldn't mind. Brandmeister t 22:33, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, specially with all those citations there, it is hard to see. How about using c. 5 and c. 33 and moving on? History2007 (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Is Jesus Jesus, or did Jesus only claim to be Jesus?
I know this is completely assinine and contrived, but an IP editor wants to add Jesus to the article List of people claimed to be Jesus. For the purposes of this encyclopedia, red IS red, isn't it? Red isn't just claimed to be red, and there are only four lights even if we want to imagine five, right? I would think that WP:COMMONSENSE would dictate that Jesus not need be included. I'm not the only editor that thinks so, but I thought the issue should be brought up elsewhere. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:58, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- This is a snowball case, so I agree, he shouldn't be included as a generally undisputed and righteous claimant. Brandmeister t 22:24, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
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