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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tifetondu (talk | contribs) at 09:29, 2 July 2011 (→‎FALLACY: "Adisa" is a Bosniak first name = Tomic's mother is Bosniak.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 9/5/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

2007 & 2008

It's mixed up. Tomic didnt win the Junior Aussie Open in 2007, he did it in 2008.

Florida Orange Bowl

It should be mentioned that he had won the Florida Orange Bowl Tournament 3 times consectuvily. This should be mentioned because every time he is mentioned in the papers this feat is harped about. Apparently it is the most prestigous non grand slam junior tournament in the world. The papers might be talkng shit, but this should still be mentioned, because they are his only achievements to date.

What the hell? there is only a under 12 and a under 14 Orange Bowl so how the hell can you win it three times consecutively?, people need to get their facts straight before they should even contribute! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jah89 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sandefjord

his father, jovan tomić, is montenegrin, and his mother, ady, is croatian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.201.67 (talk) 18:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

man, you are talking sheet. his fathers name is ivica and he is croatian from tuzla, bih, ex yu. i know his relative who lives in zagreb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.3.61 (talk) 21:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

Ok, I have just given the article a much needed boost; it now has some interesting information about his junior career. However, I can't seem to find a decent picture, perhaps someone could work on that? 202.89.163.157 (talk) 08:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His parents are from the Bosnia

Bernard Tomic was born in Germany but his parents are war refugees from Tuzla, a town in northern Bosnia.
Bernard's father is an ethnic Croat while his mother is an ethnic Bosniak both from Tuzla.
Zec (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is fine. Can you provide a source to confirm these statistics? If so, we can amend the lede to include his Bosniak background (alongside Croatian) as well as add the Bosnian language to the opening translation. Evlekis (talk) 07:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


WILL HE PLAY FOR CROATIA?


please put articles and opinions about that theme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.144.157 (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"I speak Croatian. My parents have a Croatian background" (20.01.11 Interview)

These are Bernard Tomic's OWN WORDS in the press interview he gave at the Australian Open on 20.01.11

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/interviews/2011-01-20/201101201295505489338.html (scroll to the bottom of the page)

Removing this PRIMARY SOURCE and lying about his parents' ethnicity will not hide the TRUTH !

Tifetondu (talk) 17:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you have failed to read the article correctly. It is well known that Bernard Tomic is of Bosnian descent (his mother's side) as well as Croatian.

However, when asked about what languages he speaks fluently (which was what the question was about), he mentioned the Croatian language and cited his parents' part-Croatian background as the reason for this. It has nothing to with his part-Bosnian background, as illustrated by many sources - it is purely to do with the origin of his spoken dialect.

As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia (or familiar with it's history) would tell you, the Bosnian language was only established as an official standard in Bosnia and Herzegovina long after it's independence in 1992. The Bosnian language was never taught as an official language in Yugoslavian schools.

Jas315 (talk) 03:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another source referring to the descent of Bernard's family, rather than the origins of his language (which seems to have been deleted by Tifetondu):

"It was also at that time that, coincidentally, Guiney's wife Kate was teaching English to Tomic's Bosnian maternal grandmother."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/tennis/first-coach-still-plays-a-key-role-in-tomics-emerging-career/2009/01/22/1232471497977.html?page=2

(Fourth paragraph)

I advise that you stop vandalising the article. Thank you.

Jas315 (talk) 06:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


It seems that you have failed to read the interview correctly yourself and are inferring what is simply not stated by Tomic about the Bosnian language. FYI, the term "Bosnian" INCLUDES Bosnian Croats and there are no sources in the article verifying any other ethnic background but Croatian as stated by Tomic himself. Sorry, but having a "Bosnian maternal grandmother" doesn't mean that she is a "Bosniak" (Epic fail here !) but simply from Bosnia, as anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would tell you. Once again, "Bosnian" is not an ethnicity of its own, is not a constitutive ethnic group in Bosnia, and doesn't mean "Bosniak"

Spare me the lecture and false accusation about deleting your meaningless source, and just post a verifiable source in English to prove that Tomic is also of "BOSNIAK" or "BOSNIAN SERB" descent.

Otherwise I advise you stop misrepresenting and vandalising the article. Thank you.

Tifetondu (talk) 06:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are several sources that state his ancestors are Bosnian, but none that say Bosniak. Furthermore, the Bosniak page states "The term Bosnian is used to denote all inhabitants of Bosnia regardless of ethnic origin", so the sensible thing is to use the term "Bosnian" to satisfy both cases. Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:54, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bernard Tomic might identify more as Croat because his father is Croat named Ivica from Tuzla, town in northern Bosnia, while his mother is Bosniak named Adisa and is from Brcko, a town also in northern Bosnia.

His parents were really young when the war started, his mom was a student while his dad was a taxi driver.

PS: Bosniak=Bosnian just as Croat=Croatian in most situations, even if a Bosniak from Croatia mght be Croatian in a sense that he is from Croatia just as a Croat from Bosnia is a Bosnian in a sense that he is from Bosnia.

Zec (talk) 15:02, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Which source is that in? I can't find it. Absconded Northerner (talk) 17:02, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hear you Absconded Northerner. As you have yourself removed the unsourced term "Bosniak" from the article today, you can see here again with "Zec" that the term "Bosnian" is still constantly associated and confused with "Bosniak" by most editors and Bosniak themselves who have absolutely no English or translatable sources to verify that Tomic's mother is Bosniak whatsoever. That's why Bernard Tomic himself specified both his parents "Croatian background" (not just his father) in his press conference, like any ethnic Croat expatriate would do whether their parents are from Croatia itself and/or from Bosnia. That said, I agree with your proposal and would like to satisfy both cases by simply using Croatian and Bosnian "origins" instead to avoid any more unsourced claim and confusion about the ethnicity of Tomic's mother. I doubt it will change much here anyway, though, at this unsourced myth has already taken a life of its own all over the Internet because of Wikipedia. It won't be long when some journalist will repeat it in an article after briefly looking at Tomic's page here, and it will come back full circle as a source, LOL !

Tifetondu (talk) 18:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Australian people of German descent ?

The Category:Australian people of German descent, added in this edit on 4 August 2010 by Mayumashu, should be removed from this article. Tomic or his parents were never German, as far as we know. Being born in Germany before 2000 does not confer German citizenship, which is quite difficult to obtain. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mother's name is Adisa, which is a Bosniak name for females - Also, Croatian article stating that Tomic is of "Croatian and Bosnian roots"

A source from the International Tennis Federation (which has been recently added to the article) shows that his mother's name is Adisa (along with the names of his father and sister) -

http://www.itftennis.com/mens/players/player.asp?player=100096396

As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would know, Adisa is a Bosniak name for females. Ethnic Croatian females are not given this name.

Articles from the Western world use the term "Bosnian" to refer to Bosniaks and people from Bosnia as a whole, as this is what the term essentially means. Most notably, they have used the term to refer to Tomic's maternal side of the family (predominantly his mother), so while it is common knowledge that Bernard's mother is a Bosniak, it should not deter the article from using the term "Bosnian".

For what it's worth, the term Bosnian Australian is used to refer to Australians with Bosnian ancestry (Bosniaks) and Australians who have come from Bosnia.

Also, another important thing to note is that all sources provided mention "Croatian and Bosnian" when referring to Tomic's roots. Tthe following Croatian news-read (which has also been recently added to the article as a source) does this -

"BERNARD TOMIĆ, 18-godišnji Australac hrvatskih i bosanskih korijena"

Translated:

"Bernard Tomic, the 18-year-old Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots"

http://www.index.hr/sport/clanak/rezultat-karijere-18godisnjeg-tomica-morao-sam-si-dati-sansu-/558192.aspx

I think it's time one certain vandal (signature starting with T) stops vandalising the article (for whatever reason, I do not know - most likely out of nationalistic bias) and takes every relevant source into account. Tomic is of both Croatian and Bosnian (Bosniak) roots. Nothing but the factual truth is meant to be added to Wikipedia articles - pure and simple. These sources only solidify this.

Jas315 (talk) 03:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Until you have a source that uses the term "Bosniak", you can't use it on the article. It's as simple as that. Absconded Northerner (talk) 09:34, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I did not propose the use of the term "Bosniak" - in fact, my post stated that the articles written by the Western world use the term "Bosnian", which includes Bosniaks AND people from Bosnia. Also, the term Bosnian Australian refers to Australian Bosniaks and Australians from Bosnia. Thus, I pointed out that the use of the word "Bosnian" was appropriate as not only would it negate any confusion when referring to sources but it would also be a factually correct.

Bernard's mother, Adisa, is a Bosniak, due to the fact that her name is a Bosniak name - and no Croatian female would be called such a name due to the fact that names (and especially last names) in ex-Yugoslavia hold a big value in terms of recognition among each other based on religion and culture. However, the term Bosnian or Bosnian Australian would suffice just as well.

Jas315 (talk) 09:43, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have also found an article which states that Adisa (Tomic's mother) was born with the last name Vatić prior to marrying Ivica (John) Tomic (Tomic's father).

"dok je majka Adisa, rođena Vatić, iz Brčkog."

Translated:

"while his mother Adisa, born Vatić, from Brčko."

http://sportsport.ba/tenis/tomic-stigao-beckera/59658

As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would tell you, Vatić is a Bosniak last name. The fact that both the first name, Adisa, and the last name, Vatić, are Bosniak names is not a coincidence. The best way to see this for yourself (if you are not as knowledgeable with Balkan names) is to search Vatić in Facebook which will return names such as "Azra", "Aldina", "Alma", "Emina", "Adnan", "Hajrija", "Lejla", "Enes", "Elvira", "Meliha", "Senad", "Haris", "Emrah", "Kenan", "Safet", "Tarik" and so and so forth. All of these names are Bosniak names and the majority (if not all, except for English nicknames) will be Bosniak names. As any ex-Yugoslav would tell you, no Bosniak (Muslim) will have a Croatian last name, let alone the majority.

The only way for Adisa to obtain a Bosniak last name upon birth is for her father to be a Bosniak himself - and considering there is a source in the article already stating that Tomic's maternal grandmother is Bosnian (Not Croatian, or Bosnian Croatian - Bosnian) - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that Adisa (Bosniak first name) is a Bosniak/Bosnian mother to Bernard. Whether or not English articles are used to posting the term "Bosnian" instead of "Bosniak" when referring to anyone from Bosnia - she is simply not a Croat.

I urge anyone other than Tife to consider this, as Tife is constantly choosing to ignore these sources and hard facts, resulting in a nationalistic article, rather than a truthful (and factual) one.

Jas315 (talk) 10:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've finally found the policy I've been looking for - WP:SYNTH. You're not allowed to say "Fact 1 + Fact 2 = Fact 3" on this site - you have to find a reliable source (WP:RS) that says it for you. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe it to be true, you need to find a source. That's the end of the matter. Absconded Northerner (talk) 10:57, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Parents' nationality

I'm not going to edit it because it seems that there has been a great deal of discussion on this topic, but having thirteen footnotes at the end of that sentence is stupid, it is making the article look messy. I think perhaps the three most reliable sources would be sufficient. Mato (talk) 13:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree completely with you, Mato. Jenks24 (talk) 13:34, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree too. Several of them don't really address the issue of his parentage anyway, only his place of birth - and nobody's disagreeing about that (yet!). Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:36, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let's settle this

After my request at WP:RFPP, Fastily has been kind enough to fully-protect this page for three days so we can sort this dispute about Tomic's parents' nationality out on the talk page, rather than edit-warring over it. Firstly, I'd like to say that, although I have no actual authority, I'd be happy to try and mediate this dispute (I have no horse in this race) so that, hopefully, a compromise can be reached that will be acceptable to all involved. To begin, I think it would probably be best if everyone could explain what they believe the article should say in regards to his ancestry and why (eg reliable sources) without making comments on other editors or their opinions. I'll shortly notify everyone who has expressed a recent interest in this particular section of the article. Hope I haven't come across too preachy, Jenks24 (talk) 20:10, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'm going to reply properly tomorrow but for now all I'm going to say is that I'm astonished that this kind of level of disagreement can result over the unknown parents of somebody famous. I'm glad the article has been locked from further editing because it's clear that this is the only way to get some people to talk here. Absconded Northerner (talk) 20:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I think that the only legit source, in this edit war, should be an interview from Bernard Tomic himself, that he gave to australianopen.com. That is the cleanest source you can get, personally from the mouth of Tomic. Other sources I don't know, since there has been an history of false informations from what Wikipedia considers a reliable sources. Look at the examples of Asher Roth or Zac Efron claimes of them being Jews. Anything else, is just pure speculation from a "reliable" source reporters, that can be wrong, in fact they were in many occasions. If you can't get a confirmation where Tomic personally claimes his mother Bosnian ancestry, then don't do it. Why wouldn't he claim his mother Bosnian ancestry if that is so? His interview to australianopen.com is the closest you can get to the truth, and there he claimes Croatian ancestry to both of his parents. That is my opinion, hope I've been helpful. Cheers, --89.164.147.134 (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The only compromise that can be reached is if we all agree on the truth. Tomic's parents are from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Everyone knows that. All Croatian and Bosnian media report this (in English or otherwise). His father is a Bosnian catholic and mother Bosnian Muslim however they are Bosnians. Had they been from Croatia they would be Croats. However, Bernard is playing for his adopted country Australia and that should be stated as number one, everything else is irrelevant. If we can't agree on this then remove all reference to Bosnia/Croatia and only leave parents full names in the article. Let people judge for themselves. End of story. ~ BiHVolim
Hi BiHVolim, one of Wikipedia's core policies is verifiability, which means that you must provide reliable sources to back up your assertions. Therefore could you please some references (they don't have to be in English) that state that Tomic's parents are only of Bosnian heritage? Alternatively, do you believe that Absconded Northerner's compromise, stating that his parents are of Croatian and Bosnian descent is acceptable? Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 09:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ethnicity is and always has been very fluid. Bosnia and Herzegovina is a sovereign state and the 90%+ majority belong to one of three South Slavic ethnic designations: Croat, Muslim (including Bosniak) and Serb. There is consistency to a degree between faith and ethnic group (ie. Catholic Croats, Muslims self-explained and Orthodox Serbs) but there are a few unusual combinations. For example, the number of Bosniaks outnumbers those who are Muslim by faith. The question is how does an individual identify and where are the sources? If the location (here, Bosnia) is known but there is no further information on how the parents identify, we need to state: parents originally from Bosnia, and leave it at that. If we know what the parents classed themselves, then present these things as the subjects's background. Of course, he too is free to declare himself as he chooses. There is a possibility that his Catholic father declares Bosniak or Bosnian but this needs proof; the overwhelming majority of Catholics of Bosnia declare Croat. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:14, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the comments above have no relevance here, since Wikipedia is about Reliable Sources, not phrases like "Everyone knows that". I've gone through the sources, and separated them out as follows:

These sources either state, or imply, a Croatian background:

  • Tomic says "Well, I speak Croatian. My parents have a Croatian background" [1]
  • "Tomic was born in Stuttgart, Germany to Croatian parents, John and Ady," [2]
  • "The Croatian-born John and Ady Tomic were refugees after the break-up of Yugoslavia" [3]
  • "Was born in Stuttgart, Germany to Croatian parents" [4]
  • "Tomic, who was born in Stuttgart to Croatian parents" [5]
  • "The 18-year-old, whose Croatian parents took him Down Under" [6]

These sources imply a mixed, Croatian and Bosnian background:

  • "BERNARD TOMIC, 18-godišnji Australac hrvatskih i bosanskih korijena napravio je u Wimbledonu rezultat karijere!" ("Bernard Tomic, the 18-year-old Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots was made at Wimbledon result of his career!" - via Google Translate) [7]
  • "the 18-year-old son of Bosnian and Croatian parents" [8]
  • "parents of Bosnian and Croatian descent." [9]
  • "Tomic's Bosnian maternal grandmother." [10]

These sources say nothing about his parentage, and only mention his birthplace - they should be moved to a better place or even removed entirely, since nobody disagrees that he was born in Germany:

This source says nothing about his parentage, but is another source that he threatened to switch to Croatia at one point:

  • "The Tomic camp has previously threatened to switch allegiance to Croatia" [11]

The first thing to note is that not one single source uses the term "Bosniak", which means to use it here is SYNTH and not allowed. Next is that not one source is clear about where either parent was born, although it's clear that his ancestry is at least partly Croatian and partly Bosnian (the maternal grandmother means he's at least 1/8 Bosnian).

My suggestion for the opening para is something like the following: "Tomic was born in Stuttgart, Germany, on 21 October 1992. His parents, John and Ady, are of Croatian and Bosnian descent, having left Croatia several years before Tomic's birth. They were both working in Germany when Tomic was born, before relocating to Queensland when he was 3 years old. His younger sister Sara is also a professional tennis player."

Hopefully that's non-specific enough to keep everybody happy - or at least, equally unhappy. Absconded Northerner (talk) 08:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have an interview of Bernard Tomić where he states his parents Croatian origin, that to me is no brainier. Anything else could be considered as a unsourced info. If only all Wiki sources could be such clear as the one where Bernard Tomić states his parents ancestry. And further more you have a statement from his father John when had threatened to quit Australia, having Bernard play for Croatia. To my opinion is should state that his parents have a Croatian background, and nothing else, as that are the words directly from Bernard Tomić. Who are you to question his own statements?--Eversman (talk) 11:58, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're using one source when there are a dozen. Please take a serious look at the evidence before using one quote to support your point of view. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Croatian seems to be the definite ethnicity but it is more cordial to apply Bosnian Croat. There may be a fear that this plays into the hands of those pushing for a more Bosniak outlook. Most subjects are only too happy for this detail. Evlekis (Евлекис) 12:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not pushing for anything. I don't care one way or the other, and I have to say I find it surprising that people are fighting that theirs should be the country that his parents left to go somewhere else. I've already stated that the word "Bosniak" doesn't appear in any of the published sources so it can't be used in the article. I've suggested a compromise wording. If that's not acceptable then I'll leave you all to fight amongst yourselves, because I'm getting bored. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:59, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am using the only source that is actually an interview from Bernard Tomic, his own words, his own beliefs, all other sources are not that. So rightfully I am standing behind everything I have written. It should state that his parents have a Croatian background, and nothing else. Again, Who are we to question his own statements?--Eversman (talk) 13:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia requires verifiability. It's possible - and likely, judging from other sources - that Tomic was simplifying a fairly complex background. Just as I could say that I have an English background, I also have recent ancestors from Ireland and Scotland. Arthur Brown said "I am the god of Hellfire!", but that's not included on the personal section of his page for obvious reasons. There are plenty of cases where public figures lie about their details for whatever reason. For instance, David Boreanaz pretended to be younger than he really was in order to land a TV role. We cannot simply accept a person's statement about their history. Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are not here to interpret Bernard Tomić's interview, you don't know that he was simplifying, neither do you know that his background is complex. You have his own words, a by God you should accept them as the only legit source, since all other sources are not an interviews from him. If my Wiki page states that I am of Croatian and Jewish ancestry, then I don't need anyone to interpret my own words like he fits.--Eversman (talk) 13:31, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The first quote is very vague. I think it's important to make sure no source is being taken out of context. Stripping quotes before and after one quote tends to give a whole new meaning to the said quote.

When reading Tomic's answer to the question, "Can you talk a little bit about your childhood. I read you were born in Germany. Do you speak German?"

It becomes clear that he's talking about the origins of the languages (other than English) that are native to him (especially when reading the conclusion to his response) - with the explanation of his fluency in Croatian being that his parents "have" "a" Croatian background.

"Well, I speak Croatian. My parents have a Croatian background. And German, I speak a little bit. Not fluently. I moved out of there when I was young. It's tough for me to learn. Yeah, I speak two languages."

Notice that he did not use the explanation "My parents "are" Croatian" in regards to his fluency in the Croatian language. Tomic has been in Australia since he was 3 years old - the kid knows how to coherently express himself. If his intention was to explicitly confirm his full ethnicity, or the full ethnicity of his parents, he would have done so. Simply put, the quote neither confirms or denies the full ethnicity of his parents - anything else would be an assumption, moving away from each and every other direct source provided altogether.

As for his father threatening Australian Tennis with the notion of Bernard playing for Croatia - well duh, that's a no brainer. Considering his Croatian father was his coach and mentor, there is no doubt that he would have had an influence to play for Croatia, bluff or not. Also, it is well known that Croatian Tennis is much more backed than Bosnian Tennis (even Amer Delic, who is a Bosniak, chooses to play for the U.S due to how poorly funded Bosnian Tennis is) - so if any serious tennis player had the option of playing for either Croatia or Bosnia, they would choose Croatia, full stop. I do not see how this sort of thing would be an indication of anyone's full ethnicity anyway.

And lastly, the article that has been translated (which refers to Tomic as an Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots) comes from a Croatian (.hr) website, published in Croatia. So if there was any real opportunity for a media organization to be nationalistically opinionated and point out the idea that both his parents are ethnic Croats, this would have been the perfect time to do so - but alas, they chose not to.

In the end, numerous sources make note of both Croatian and Bosnian origins. None of the sources use the term "Bosniak" or "Bosnian Croat" - which also makes sense due to the fact that these terms are only applied to people currently residing in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Considering both of Tomic's parents (namely his mother, who's ethnicity is under dispute) are from Bosnia and Herzegovina, but currently reside in Australia, his mother would be classified as "Bosnian Australian" (note the nationally recognized term "Bosnian"), as this term refers to Australians of Bosnian ancestry and/or Australians who have come from Bosnia and Herzegovina. You would not need to find out his mother's full ethnicity for this to be the case.

In response to Evlekis, it is of an impression that you feel very nationalistically opposed to the correct terms given, which comes off rather spiteful to Bosnians as a whole (Bosniaks or otherwise). I find it quite baffling that you would dispute the use of "Bosnian" (which is both a correct term and used in sources) and yet propose "Bosnian Croat", which is neither used in any source, nor a correct term given to people outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In fact, no where does it explicitly confirm that his mother was either born in Croatia or born with full Croatian ethnicity. There are sources however, that refer to her, and Tomic's maternal side of his family as being Bosnian (a correct and nationally recognized term). To conclude, I don't think it would be out of place to assume that you are "pushing" for a poorly evidenced notion that both his parents are Croatian.

Having said all that, Absconded Northerner, I have no real problem with your suggested opening paragraph. As far as I'm concerned, it makes full use of all reasonable sources provided while neither favouring one side or the other - thus finally putting the issue to rest in a mutual manner.

Jas315 (talk) 13:52, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Much written, little said. Again, you are not here to interpret Bernard Tomić's interview, you can't do that, not you, nor anyone else, period. Who authorized you to do that? You can't interpret any whose interview, if that was the case, then why have any interview if an individual will come and interpret them how they fit. As far as Crotian page, it is a Croatian tabloid, and by far it is the worst possible source of the listed above. And yet, none of the available sources has a weight as an interview from australianopen. Provide source where Bernard Tomić himself states his mother Bosnian ancestry, and that is it.--Eversman (talk) 14:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not about interpreting it, it's about reading what's actually there. You're doing just as much interpretation by making assumptions about exactly what Tomic meant. Your earlier point your wiki page isn't relevant. I have no reason to doubt anything on your page, but if you became a notable person and somebody tried to use your page as a reliable source for your ancestry, they wouldn't be allowed to. You should also read WP:PRIMARY, which seems to apply in this case. It doesn't exclude sources like that interview, but it does urge caution about them, and states that secondary sources are preferable. Absconded Northerner (talk) 14:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is not about interpreting, but yet you are constantly trying to do exactly that regarding Bernard Tomić interview. What am I interpreting? I have written above that to my opinion it should state that his parents have a Croatian background, and nothing else. Didn't Bernard Tomić stated himself that "his parents have a Croatian background."? What is wrongly interpreted there? I have read WP:PRIMARY and nothing there states or urge caution against interviews. Plenty of official websites of notable persons are used as a source on their Wiki page, so I don't know what are you talking about when you write if I became a notable person and somebody tried to use my page as a reliable source for my ancestry, they wouldn't be allowed to. That is simply not true.--Eversman (talk) 21:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Re-read the policy, and WP:RS. There is no way that a WP user page would be allowed as a reliable source. Jas315 has already explained in detail why an off-the-cuff answer to a different question is unreliable, and you keep ignoring the existence of all the other sources. It's increasingly difficult to assume good faith here, as you seem to be pushing a solidly-nationalistic POV that brooks no compromise. I have suggested a form of words that seems to incorporate the solid evidence from all the sources, while you keep on and on and on and on about one source. Absconded Northerner (talk) 22:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I never said that my Wiki page could be used as a reliable source, it was just an a example to show you that you can't interpret my own words like you fit, or anyones for that matter. Look at my Wiki page as an interview with me, that was my aim to begin with, to show you that you can't use someones(in this case Bernard Tomić's) interview and interpreted like you fit. You just can't. I am pursuing the only source that is actually legit in this case, since that source are Bernard Tomić own words, a by God you should accept them. If he states: My parents have a Croatian background., then that is it. You should state that on his Wiki page. Who are you to question his own statements? I will not address the accusation about nationalistic POV, since it is nothing but slander and your wishful thinking.--Eversman (talk) 23:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Eversman, I agree with you in the sense that when it comes to personal information of biographies of living people, Wikipedia should take into account what the subject has said on the issue (for example, the spelling or pronunciation of the person's name). In this case, we should certainly take into account what Tomic has said, which is that his parents have a Croatian background. However, it must be noted that Tomic gave a short reply in that interview and did not go into any specific detail. There are many reliable sources that have stated he is of Bosnian heritage as well. Would something along the lines of "Tomic's parents, John and Ady, left Croatia several years before his birth. Tomic has stated his parents are of Croatian background,[12] while other sources, such as The Australian and The Guardian, have written that Tomic's parents are also of Bosnian heritage.[13][14]" be an acceptable compromise for you? Jenks24 (talk) 04:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is absolutely astoudning that the current version is based on only person's (Eversman's)extreme view (i.e. repeateldy using the one example how Tomic himself told the media that he is of Croatian backround etc). It is a complete oversimplification of a complex issue; and I believe it has no factual weight. Remember when at US open, the announcer incorrectly stated that Djokovic was Serbian - Djokovic corrected him, but took no offence, and said "it's the same thing really". Tennis players are less concerned about their background than we obviously are. So to hold what the 18 year old Tomic who came to Aus as a three year old says (to Australian media) as the paragon of truth regarding his background is uttelry simplistic and narrow-minded (especially when there are factual references that are very relevant in this example - I've provided one below (tuzlalive.com). It's amazing that he's parents' Bosnian descent is being disputed by some based on such simplistic, uneducated and quite undemocratic reasoning, totally contrary to Wikipedia's ethic. Zeddi30 (talk) 06:13, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on content, not on the contributors. Do you have an opinion on Absconded Northerner's compromise or my own (both of which do mention the Bosnian heritage)? Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 06:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Jenks24, I appreciate the attempts at compromise. For some reasone unknown to me the father is described as Australian Croatian, and the mother is Bosnian-born (with a link pointing to Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina). Regardless, let's proceed to use only references provided on the internet as Absonded Northerner suggested (this is unfortunately the larger "evil" of Wikipedia). The issue that is debated here then is the mother's descent/ethnicity. We know that Internet references do state she is Bosnian. Now some are invalidating this point on grounds of "Bosnian" not representing an ethnicity. It doesn't have to. You can be just "Bosnian". Obviously, during the communist era there were many mixed-marriages (Tomics included). The term "Bosnian" is therefore a valid descent, just as "Yugoslav" was during the Yugoslav era - i.e. no one forced you to identify as a Serb, Croat, Muslim etc. I'm "Bosnian" and "Bosnian" only, and do not belong to either of the three "ghettos". So to sum up, the background section should state: "Bosnian mother and Croatian father". ). My previous comment on not using Tomic's referece to his parents stays - i.e. it's a gross oversimplification and bears no factual weight.Zeddi30 (talk) 08:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have received the notification from Jenks24 to participate in this discussion. After looking all the references, I have to agree that Tomic interview has the greatest significance. So to settle this issue I suggest that is written, born in Sttutgart, Germany to Croatian and Bosnian parents, John and Ady, although Tomic identifies both his parents to be of Croatian background. That is my suggestion.--Bbrezic (talk) 09:25, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To resolve this problem, I can fully agree with the proposed solution from Jenks24 or Bbrezic. That sounds to me as a only reasonable solution. Best regards, --Eversman (talk) 15:59, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is my first discussion on Wikipedia and I have to say that I'm shocked and saddened at the standard of debate. Jenks24 and I have each given a detailed opinion on the sources and how they should be reflected in the article, but all we get from the rest of you is "Well I think X so X". I wonder how you survive on this site with such an attitude. Too many people are interested only in a Nationalistic POV and are not even trying to come to a sensible result.
I don't think specifying sources in the text as Jenks24 does works very well. I'm obviously biased, but I think my version is accurate without being pedantic or nationalistic. Absconded Northerner (talk) 00:04, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Absconded Northerner, I agree with your proposal. It is a compromise, but it's very acceptbale one and you solely provide a detailed discussion which others seem to ignore. I have similarily attempted to compromis abovee, while what Eversman and Bbrezic seem to be doing is a kind of a 'compromise without compromise' - it just doesn't work as such. Thanks again for giving by far the most detailed analysis of the references and Wikipedia guidelines, and we should be closing this debate with your proposal. Zeddi30 (talk) 02:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"In the blood WE ARE CROATIAN but WE are feeling 100 percent Australian." (John Tomic, June 2011)

John Tomic Interview:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/tennis-wimbledon-tomic-idUKL3E7HT36820110630

Once again another direct quote, this time by Bernard Tomic's own father, defining the Tomic family as being nothing but of Croatian blood. These are not the words of some unrelated journalist, nor the opinion of some anonymous Wikipedia editor here. Sorry, but you don't identify your parents as having just a "Croatian background" when your mother is supposedly a Bosniak (Bernard Tomic Interview, Australian Open, 20.01.11), nor your family to just be of Croatian blood when your wife is again supposedly a Bosniak.

STOP READING BETWEEN THE LINES TO PRETEND OTHERWISE ALREADY!

Tifetondu (talk) 09:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FACT: The majority of "Bosnians" (52%) are NOT "Bosniaks".

Bosnia-Herzegovina demographics (CIA Fact Book):

Bosniaks/Muslims (48%), Serbs (37.1%), Croats (14.3%), others (0.6 %)

source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bk.html

STOP CLAIMING THAT BOSNIAN = BOSNIAK, WHEN MOST BOSNIANS AREN'T!

Tifetondu (talk) 09:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FALLACY: "Adisa" is a Bosniak first name = Tomic's mother is Bosniak.

Common Bosniak first names do not always prove ethnicity in the former Yugoslavia.

Examples:

"Alisa" Maric (woman Grandmaster in chess) is a Serb.

"Aida" Ljubicic (wife of tennis player Ivan Ljubicic) is a Croat.

"Zlata" Filipovic (the Anne Frank of Sarajevo) is a Bosnian Croat.

"Jasmina" Tesanovic (feminist author) is a Serb.

"Damir" Dokic (father of tennis player Jelena Dokic) is a Serb.

"Zlatan Stipisic" (singer) is a Croat.


Same goes with Croatian and Serbian first names:

"Tomislav" Nikolic (politician) is a Serb.

"Zlatko" Lagumdžija (politician) is a Bosniak.

"Zvonimir Vukic" (footballer) is a Serb.

"Dragan" Cović (politician) is a Bosnian Croat.


Stop making assumptions and uncorroborated claims just on someone's first name...YOUR PERSONAL OPINION PROVES NOTHING !

Tifetondu (talk) 09:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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