Talk:Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece

Plebiscite on abolition of the monarchy

Regarding the year in which this occurred: my understanding from my reading is that there was a first plebiscite in July 1973 held by the Colonels' junta, and then another in Dec 1974 held by Karamanlis' government. Both were on the question of abolishing the monarchy in favor of a republic. Both are referred to in the article, although for Dec 1974, the word referendum is used instead of plebiscite. I am changing the date given in the article for the first plebiscite back to 1973. LiniShu 04:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Title

Shouldn't this article be named "Pavlos de Grecia"? That is the name he comes by, right? The ", crown prince of Greece" suffix is neither used as a last name nor an nobility title, as there exist no nobitlity titles in Greece. Michalis Famelis 18:26, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

That is a valid question. As a past contributor to this article, though not responsible for the original naming, I, also, am interested to consider if it currently has the most appropriate name. I've done some checking again of the MOS. I found the following pages relevant to the naming of this article:

• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) - see the section on "Nick names, pen names, stage names, cognomens" - a relevant phrase here is "[the name] most often used to refer to a certain person".

• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Western nobility) states: "Most general rule overall: use the most common form of the name used in English."

• Guideline #7 under Monarchical titles: "Former or deposed monarchs should be referred to by their previous monarchical title with the exception of those who are still alive and are most commonly referred to by a non-monarchial title; all former or deposed monarchs should revert to their previous monarchical title upon death." (Pavlos' father, Constantine, is actually cited as an example here).
• Guidline #5 under Other royalty addresses the use of the <Name>, Crown Prince of <state> form, as being appropriate usage (although it does not address the situation when the title is no longer recognized by the state.)
• Guideline #7 under Other royalty advises "Do not use 'surnames' in article names [of members of royal families]"

A conclusion that I draw is that it would not be incorrect to use either the name "Pavlos de Grecia" (his current legal name) or "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece" (remember, here, the intended "timeless" nature of Wikipedia; at one time during his life (the first 6 years) this was his rightful title even within Greece.) So, the question to ask for English Wikipedia is, which is most commonly used in English? One measure for common usage is Google hits, I found the following results:

• Prince Pavlos of Greece - 541 hits
• Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece - 397 hits
• Pavlos de Grecia - 7 hits (all in Spanish)
• Prince Pavlos of Greece and Denmark - 5 hits

Based on the far higher number of Google hits for either "Prince Pavlos of Greece", or "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece", than for "Pavlos de Grecia", at this time (2005), I would recommend keeping the current article title.

Granted, either keeping the article as "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece", or changing it to "Pavlos de Grecia" does carry a POV with it either way, so it does seem appropriate to name the article according to the most common usage, and to maintain NPOV by insuring that both POVs are addressed in the article.

--LiniShu 12:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Move

I really think this should have been put to a vote before being moved. As Pavlos was born in 1967, and the monarchy wasn't completely abolished until 1974, wouldn't he have been Crown Prince then, adn that is the title that most people know him as. Prsgoddess187 23:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Page restored to original location as it was moved without following requires requested move procedures and left complete chaos (broken links, talk page at one name, article at another name). I am astonished that so senior a user as Adam would have chosen to break every single rule on Wikipedia here; from the Manual of Style MCN rule to the Naming Conventions to the moving pages rules to the fixing of links. If an anonymous user had acted that way they could have received an instant final warning. But for the fact that it is Adam it would have been reported as vandalism. One can only presume that Adam was having a bad day. If however it is done again in the manner in which it was done it will be treated as vandalism and reported as such. Adam knows very well he cannot do that that way. One can but credit it with a 'moment of madness' which he hopefully has recovered from. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

1973 or 1974

When did Constantine II cease to be King of the Hellenes: At the top of the article he's listed as King from 1964-73, yet later in the article the monarchy is declared abolished in 1974. Further more in the Constantine II of Greece article, Constantine is listed as King from 1964-74. From 1973-74 ,did or didn't Greece have a King? it can't be both ways, can it? GoodDay 22:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The Greek democracy when restored opted to accept the 1973 republic as having a de-facto existence and used its presidency, rather than automatically returning the King to the throne, until a referendum on the monarchy could be held. It was technically a questionable act: if the Regime of the Colonels was illegal, then so was its republic, meaning that the King was still king. But they feared that Constantine, who was a political numbskull, would meddle if he was allowed back. Even worse his presence might sway the vote in favour of the monarchy. So they kept him in exile illegally while they held the referendum and allowed the presidency to remain on in the interim. Constantine II was democratically deposed in 1974 but lost the throne in 1973. You could say that de facto he ceased to be king in 1973, even if de jure he was king until 1974. On balance, given that it matches reality, it makes more sense to say that he lost the throne in 1973 and had it legally confirmed in 1974. So 1973 is probably the best date to use. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 22:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, 1973 is probably the best date to use. GoodDay 22:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Wife's Title

It seems very odd that she would be styled "HRH Marie-Chantal, the Crown Princess Pavlos" ... shouldn't she be styled, as per typical royal form, "HRH The Crown Princess Pavlos" or "HRH The Crown Princess of Greece"? Mowens35 15:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe since the Greek monarchy has been deposed, calling her The Crown Princess (Pavlos) would seem to some a little misleading. As Pavlos was at one time The Crown Prince of Greece, this title for him is correct. On the Greek Royal Family's webpage (POV to be sure) she is titled "HRH Crown Princess Pavlos", see it here. But that is only my opinion, please do not take it for fact. Prsgoddess187 01:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:News glykxboorg.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Name

I moved this to Pavlos, but

This user is of Greek ancestry.

This user is interested in flags and emblems.

has moved it back to Paul. He is referred to as Pavlos on the royal family's own website, and I have rarely, if ever, seen him actually called Paul in English. My computer is not letting me use search engines (pretty sure I have some kind of spyware right now) so I cannot go look for myself, but I believe he's better known as Crown Prince Pavlos. His siblings are at the articles corresponding to their Greek titles. His father is only at Constantine because that is what he goes by, instead of the Greek Konstantinos. But Pavlos I have only ever seen referred to as Pavlos, not Paul. Morhange (talk) 10:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

KING OF GREECE

I would like to note the following: The title "KING OF GREECE" belongs to the descendants of King Otto - the Wittelsbachs. The current descendants of George I of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line of the House of Oldenburg have a right to the royal title of King of the Hellenes. They are NOT entitled to the royal title King of Greece, even if often referred to as such.81.132.186.249 (talk) 22:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Greece is a Republic, Greece has not a Crown Prince

Pavlos is a pretender, is not a prince because Greece is a republic since 1974. Greece has not king, has not queen, has not princes and princesses and nobody could be Crown Prince of Greece. --84.120.9.13 (talk) 04:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Pavlos was born the Crown Prince of Greece, and this was the title he held when the monarchy was overthrown. Morhange (talk) 05:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

But this title die in 1974. You cannot be a prince from a Republic. Pavlos was crown Proince of Greece, but now is not a Prince. His children are not prince and princess too, but the english wikipedia is a monarchist wikipedia and don't respect Greece and the Republic of Greece, the sovereignety and the reality of the greek society. --Hinzel 03:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hinzel (talk • contribs)

This title is lifelong. Only the Greek Goverment don't recognize this title. Peeperman (talk) 01:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

From Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece to Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece. "Crown Prince Pavlos" is by far the most common way this individual is referred to with 171,000 Google hits, versus 958 for "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece". It is also the way his own office refers to him in press releases.[1] Putting the given name first is a reference book convention designed to allow names to be alphabetized more easily. This isn't an issue on Wiki, so we can follow the common usage as it is in ordinary text. "of Greece" is both a useful disambiguator and part of his long form style (Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece, Prince of Denmark). Kauffner (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Consistency matters. The title of this article certainly shouldn't be inconsistent with the titles of the articles about his cousins (Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark, Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden, Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway, Alois, Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein, Guillaume, Hereditary Grand Duke of Luxembourg, etc) and his other peers. Surtsicna (talk) 10:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no consistency now. The other Greek princes and princess all have their titles first: Prince George of Greece and Denmark, Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark, Princess Maria-Olympia of Greece and Denmark. The cousins you list are from all different countries and it's just happenstance if their titles appear in matching form -- they don't constitute a peer group. The other heir apparents have widely differing styles. Kauffner (talk) 13:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Prince George of Greece and Denmark does not have a substantive title. Pavlos does have a substantive title. The consensus is to put substantive titles after the name. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). Per naming conventions and consistency, Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece is the right title. Surtsicna (talk) 14:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per Surtsicna and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). - dwc lr (talk) 15:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the article should be moved to Paul, Crown Prince of Greece. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I have no opinion about the move as presented, but I strongly oppose translating the name of living people, or even any 20th & 21st century person. People have legal names nowadays and it is not appropriate (or polite) to translate them. This man's name is Pavlos and can never be given correctly as Paul. SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Per Surtsnica. Seven Letters 04:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Two problems with this article

1. The long section in the introduction about his relationship to Queen Victoria strikes me as trivial and very Anglocentric. I am moving it to the section "Ancestry" for now.

2. A huge percentage of this article deals with things that are quite well dealt with and more properly dealt with in the entry on his father. While there is no doubt that the sequences of events that led to the abolition of monarchy in Greece are relevant to his life, there is too much of it. This reader was left scratching his head wondering if I had accidentally gone to the wrong tab in my browser. For the moment, I won't do anything about that, to see if there are varying opinions or ideas about how we might better handle this.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Having received no objection, I am now going to remove most of the material that doesn't directly pertain to Prince Pavlos, being an accounting of the events that led to his father being removed as monarch.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Titles and styles

A "Titles and styles" section is common with many articles about royalty. It is useful when there is official use and that official use is generally recognised. However, in the case of Pavlos, there is significant inconsistency in usage (by the Greek republic, by other royal courts, by newspapers, etc.) The section provides three versions of his name/title after 1973, but this does not include the name he used when he was in college in the United States. I suggest that the section be removed. Noel S McFerran (talk) 03:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Article title

It should be moved to Paul, Crown Prince of Greece, since his grandfather was Paul of Greece. -- GoodDay (talk) 20:39, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

He is known as Pavlos even in English, unlike his grandfather. - dwc lr (talk) 20:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Since Greece doesn't have a throne, he's not the Crown Prince at all. He may style himself as such, or be regarded as such by some people, but we mustn't present claims as facts.--Scott Mac 20:49, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I doubt moving this article to Paul Glucksburg, would be successful. GoodDay (talk) 20:52, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

The family does not have a surname. He was on the guestlist at the Duke of Cambridge's wedding the other week as Crown Prince of Greece, that is his title and what he is known as. - dwc lr (talk) 20:54, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Of course that's what his name was on the guestlist. The British monarchy doesn't want to alienate their cousins. GoodDay (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Actually not. That's what the British Royal family (and no doubt many others) call him. Other people (including the Greek state) don't recognise that title. Hence his citizen name in Greece.--Scott Mac 20:57, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

We need an overhaul of NCROY, concerning former royal families. GoodDay (talk) 20:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

It does a very good job of ensuring a NPOV. Thanks to it we have Leka, Crown Prince of Albania even though he uses the title King of the Albanians, and not Leka Zogu. - dwc lr (talk) 21:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

He is not a Greek citizen (at least that was the case) as the family refuse to take a surname. - dwc lr (talk) 21:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, since he was born while the monarchy was still extant, he really held the title of Crown Prince, and it was recognized in Greece until 1973. He is therefore a "former Crown Prince" like his father is a "former King". Styling him "Crown Prince of Greece" is therefore not inaccurate, as long as the Greek throne's present status is made clear. Constantine ✍ 21:03, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Crown Prince of Greece is part of his common name. That's what people call him. Noel S McFerran (talk) 11:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree 100% with the current title of the article. He is known as crown prince pavlos so that is what WP should retain. WP is not about compliance with the greek governement policies or any particular national policies. --193.239.221.248 (talk) 09:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)