Talk:Christopher Dorner shootings and manhunt

"Accidental Shooting"

I do not think it is appropriate to use the term "accidental shooting" or "mistakenly fired" when it was very clearly intentional shooting. An "accidental shooting" might be where someone fires a weapon, but did not intend to. The same goes with "mistakenly fired". I do not think there is any source that suggests the firing of the weapons was mistaken. WHO they thought they were shooting was a mistake. But this was no accident and they weren't mistakenly fired weapons. More accurate would be "attempted assassination", but I'd settle for something at least true and neutral. Promontoriumispromontorium (talk) 03:25, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I made the simple and very neutral change to "Civilian shooting," along with consistent edits in the body of that section. (Plus a few corrections, such as from "Doner" to "Dorner.") 74.67.54.145 (talk) 03:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

It would be interesting to add: were they just shooting into an occupied vehicle with no idea who was in it or did they mistake 2 women for 1 300 pound bald man?

It would be interesting, but I think against the grain of Wikipedia article guidelines. :) 74.67.54.145 (talk) 06:12, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Unredacted manifesto

The media have been releasing heavily censored versions of Dorner's manifesto, which may or may not protect them legally (although I doubt it makes much of a difference) but it makes it difficult to google the names to figure out what happened in the incidents he's upset about. I was able to find an uncensored copy here. 71.215.66.32 (talk) 21:29, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

http://pastebin.com/TAzPRfPy is a more readable version. 71.215.66.32 (talk) 21:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Who can say what is uncensored if the original page was taken down? The "more readable" version is labled as "scrubbed by the media" and identical to the "uncensored" one. Until consensus exists on what are the actual words of the accused perpetrator, the reference should be left out of the article IMHO. 70.36.212.48 (talk) 23:31, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Well it's the same as the censored versions, except with the names of his co-workers he's complaining about, many of whom are googlable to confirm the incidents he refers to. Who would release a version with made-up names? I don't know whether it should go in the article or not, but it's got to be useful for people doing research on background, and for finding news report sources that *should* go in the article. 71.215.66.32 (talk) 00:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. On this point, his alleged conduct is immaterial. His allegations are specific and clearly relevant to the event; in fact, they constitute his (alleged) motive. Redacted versions of the document are markedly less clear and illuminating than what thus far consistently appears on various sites as an unedited version. It is admittedly unverifiable at this juncture, but *the edited/redacted version isn't from an original source, either*. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Most media outlets are "leaving out" a great deal more than that, per the pastebin link above. Your very selective details are patently political, which doesn't serve the objective of Wikipedia. Best solution is to simply have the pastebin link included in the article. Note that in addition to many other details, that link includes those you have chosen to highlight. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 05:54, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

You're right, I agree I deleted my comment.--Ron John (talk) 06:12, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia people can be so mature relative to the Internet norm it's at times astonishing. :D 74.67.54.145 (talk) 06:14, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

-- for you guys/gals at Wikipedia to not mention Chris Dorner's decisively left wing views is not surprising. He is a Left-Wing Extremist/Terrorist. He should be identified in the opening paragraph of the article as that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.113.216.234 (talk) 20:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Dorner's personal war against law enforcement, particularly the LAPD, is essentially a war on a local government, and his threats to all other law enforcement constitute, essentially, a war on government in totality. Note that "right wing" terrorist Timothy McVeigh has a section on his wikipedia article that identifies his religious and political beliefs. So should there not be a section on Dorner's article that identifies him as a left wing extremist agnostic (perhaps atheist) ???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.113.216.234 (talk) 20:33, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Quote from the manifesto include ' I’m not a fucking Christian '. He notes his support of most of President Obama's domestic policies as well. Praises Michelle Obama, and accuses Mitt Romney of being a sore loser.

er, this is wikipedia folks. You don't expect the FACTS about an Obama-supporting, left-wing spree killer to actually make into the article, do you? 72.37.249.60 (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I have strong reason to think that the manifesto referenced is actually a badly edited copy of the one put up by Dorner; there's a few severely out-of-character points, such as the sudden shout of support for the Anonymous movement. PaseteBin is a haven for anonymously posting these sorts of things on the parts of e-activists. I have strong suspicion this was made by such an activist who wished to put words conforming to their ideology in Dorner's mouth -- some passages just read very differently and out-of-place. 86.21.137.79 (talk) 23:16, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

There is a lot of concern about the manifesto There appear to be at least THREE versions floating online from mainstream media sources one with redacted names one with names and the one referenced in this wiki article with names AND a lot of left wing stuff about guns etc We need to get 100% confirmation on this currently referenced manifesto that includes gun control references etc I have seen a lot online that CLAIMS this version is fake — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.196.253 (talk) 11:19, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Inaccurate characterization: "In the manifesto he blames racism for his predicament."

He consistently and explicitly blames whistleblower retaliation for his predicament. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 02:54, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

OWS Reaction

From an earlier revision of the article, as of now removed by an IP user:

   Revolutionary groups like Occupied Wall Street supported Dorner’s actions and called him a hero.

As the article is clearly marked as "not an official statement" on the website, I share the opinion of the IP user that this should not be included, but I'd like to place it here for debate. --MCaecilius (talk) 02:57, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Are his supporters, or even whom he supports unless they are linked to his motives (retaliation for alleged whistleblower retaliation), remotely germane to the topic of the article? What's to discuss? 74.67.54.145 (talk) 03:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I concur that this statement does not belong, as the linked OWS post is clearly labeled as anonymous user content on their website and obviously in no way is an official statement from OWS, which, to the original user who inserted that quote, stands for "Occupy" Wall Street, not "Occupied." Bosterson (talk) 03:22, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Referenced citations do not include specified details re. vehicle.

Dorner's Nissan Titan is silver and the newspaper truck is a blue Toyota Tacoma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.178.237 (talk) 07:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Neither source 15 nor 16 include the following descriptions: "The vehicle did not have its lights on in the dark, and had tinted windows, obstructing officers' ability to see into the vehicle, which may have raised their suspicion." I removed that statement, but include it here in the event there is a neutral reference for it and it is deemed applicable information. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 04:08, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I saw the vehicle. You can see the vehicle. It had tinted windows http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/07/16888732-women-shot-by-cops-were-just-delivering-papers#comments

A *reference/citation* providing that information is precisely the point. Alas, insofar as whether I would agree the source you provide shows tinted windows, for me that URL just hangs. Maybe too much traffic, who knows. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 06:00, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, it opened. It shows only the rear window as tinted. If the side window is closed, then it isn't tinted. So, "partially tinted windows"? Or perhaps we can agree that it's a somewhat trivial detail? What's that detail's function, to make the presumption the vehicle's driver was Christopher Jordan Dorner more "reasonable" before opening fire on its occupants? 74.67.54.145 (talk) 06:10, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

The tint to me? Did they mistake the two women for 1 300 pound bald Dorner or were they unable to see what they were shooting at? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.132.14.34 (talk) 06:24, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Needs a better name

The current name, 2013 Southern California shootings, is accurate to this series of events, but also includes in its name all the other 2013 shootings in socal, which there will be a lot of. can we wedge in a word or two addressing how its police officer related? i dont have any bright ideas, but i think this name is way too generic. We can probably wait to see if the media comes up with a name, aside from the suspect himself.(User:Mercurywoodrose)99.157.205.137 (talk) 04:35, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Change article name to "Christopher Jordan Dorner"? (BTW I'd be signed in but the "forgot my credentials e-mail" never arrived in my inbox.) 74.67.54.145 (talk) 04:46, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Disagree. This is an article about the killing spree, not about the individual named Dorner. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay. I thought perhaps his related notoriety made that title acceptable, but maybe not. Either way, I understand the suggestion the title is too vague. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 06:04, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I direct your attention to WP:PERP, which states the following:

A living person accused of a crime is presumed not guilty unless and until this is decided by a court of law. Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured.

We can't name the article after Dorner, because to do so would imply his guilt. We have no way of knowing whether it is actually Dorner who is committing these crimes. For all we know, someone killed him two weeks ago and used his rage and frustration at being fired as an excuse to go on a killing spree targeting the LAPD. Yes, that sounds like bad fiction (I made it up just now), but it highlights my point: we can't prove that Dorner is doing this - not until he stands trial - so we can't name the article after him. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:31, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Understood. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 07:36, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

If Dorner is dead, as you suggest in your scenario, and for all we know he may be, then WP:PERP does not apply because as your own quote makes clear, WP:PERP only applies to a living person. 58.165.123.47 (talk) 10:05, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I kind of agree. What happens god forbid.. If he kills anyone in another state or country?--Ron John (talk) 06:10, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Then we address the issue if and when it happens. In the meantime, we can't go inventing names for it because that is original research.

Remember, Wikipedia is not news. There is no hurry to add information to the article simply because it has become available. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because something has been reported, it is automatically notable enough for inclusion. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:31, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

No one asked you--Ron John (talk) 11:59, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

In that case, I suppose nobody asked you, either.

You have asked what we should do in the event that the suspect crosses a state or national border and kills someone there. Allow me to respond to your question with a question of my own: has the suspect crossed a state or national border and killed someone there? If the answer is no, then why are we even discussing it? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 12:12, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Pay attention to exactly to what I responded to! It was in reponse to your Wikipedia is not News. No one asked you for all that!--Ron John (talk) 12:32, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I put that there for a reason: Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a news bulletin. There is no hurry to add content to a page simply because it has been reported. A lot of that content might not even be relevent to the actual article.

For instance, an early version of this article had details of where Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence went to school and what they did for work. Any connection to the suspect was added as an afterthought. None of that content actually had anything to do with the article, which is the problem editors fall into when they rush to add content to a page.

What I'm trying to say is that you should avoid falling into the trap of recentism. Just because something has happened, that doesn't automatically mean that it is notable enough for Wikipedia. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 12:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

We will likely have an article on the person, in addition to an article on this series of killings. I should point out the person is highly notable now, despite not having been convicted, and a case could be made for creating an article for him now, as long as the article is entirely neutral about what he has not demonstrably done. As for my idea for renaming, i think the best thing is to watch the news media, and if any sort of consensus shakes down as to a name for this, we can use it. I also recognize that we often use a name for such events that is really not used in media, like the tsunami in japan, where we chose precision over common usage.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 15:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Have you read some of the edits that have been made? There are people who are trying to turn the suspect into a folk hero. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 02:23, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a terrible name. I suggest Christopher Dorner Shootings. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 04:41, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion: 2013 Police Assassinations

I suggest 2013 Police Assassinations. It's more descriptive as it's not certain what the article's title is referring to. An uptick in police shootings in SoCal, or what? It's too vague. Elryacko (talk) 17:37, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

meh... Police officers weren't the only victims.--Ron John (talk) 18:18, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Of the three killed ("assassinated") so far, only one was a police officer. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Name of article is absurd. There were and are more than just this "set" of killings and it is only February. "Whistleblower Cop Rampage Killings" is as descriptive. Wait for and then use whatever name sticks, and if no name does stick, just merge into article on Dorner. 2013 Sothern California Police Assassinations almost works, but the young lady killed was not police. "2013 Rogue cop Vendetta" works better, as he is doing more than killing. He is terrifying law enforcement throughout SoCal. Madame L'Auteur (talk) 07:14, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The name of the article is absurd. It needs to be changed or the article needs to be merged with the existing article on Christopher Dorner. See my comments below. 58.165.123.47 (talk) 10:31, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

No reference to or implication of quantity or frequency

"And had altercations with many students due to his race." The section of the referenced document (Dorner's) describing childhood altercations related to race offers no indication there were "many" such incidents. "Multiple times" is not sufficient for such an inference. I will remove the word "many" for that reason. In evidence, with apologies for the length, here is the entire applicable paragraph:

Journalist, I want you to investigate every location I resided in growing up. Find any incidents where I was ever accused of being a bully. You won't, because it doesn't exist. It's not in my DNA. Never was. I was the only black kid in each of my elementary school classes from first grade to seventh grade in junior high and any instances where I was disciplined for fighting was in response to fellow students provoking common childhood schoolyard fights, or calling me a nigger or other derogatory racial names. I grew up in neighborhoods where blacks make up less than 1%. My first recollection of racism was in the first grade at Norwalk Christian elementary school in Norwalk, CA. A fellow student, Jim Armstrong if I can recall, called me a nigger on the playground. My response was swift and non-lethal. I struck him fast and hard with a punch an kick. He cried and reported it to a teacher. The teacher reported it to the principal. The principal swatted Jim for using a derogatory word toward me. He then for some unknown reason swatted me for striking Jim in response to him calling me a nigger. He stated as good Christians we are to turn the other cheek as Jesus did. Problem is, I'm not a fucking Christian and that old book, made of fiction and limited non-fiction, called the bible, never once stated Jesus was called a nigger. How dare you swat me for standing up for my rights for demanding that I be treated as a equal human being. That day I made a life decision that i will not tolerate racial derogatory terms spoken to me. Unfortunately I was swatted multiple times for the same exact reason up until junior high. Terminating me for telling the truth of a caucasian officer kicking a mentally ill man is disgusting. Don't ever call me a fucking bully. I want all journalist to utilize every source you have that specializes in collections for your reports. With the discovery and evidence available you will see the truth. Unfortunately, I will not be alive to see my name cleared. That's what this is about, my name. A man is nothing without his name. Below is a list of locations where I resided from childhood to adulthood.

(I hope it is appropriate to include the paragraph here; apologies if otherwise.) 74.67.54.145 (talk) 04:39, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Don't rely on the manifesto as a source. It's not reliable. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:33, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

In that case, the detail that Dorner had race-related altercations as a child would need to be omitted altogether. But aren't first-hand accounts reliable, at least as perspective information for the involved parties, if they are reported in news accounts by sources generally regarded as reliable? The only difference is that their version is in most but not all instances redacted and/or partial. If the non-redacted version otherwise matches the version offered by reliable sources, why would the "non-redacted" version not be regarded as a reliable first-person account? Indeed, according to the journalistic sources in question, the "manifesto" being referenced is acknowledged by law enforcement as being Dorner's. Similar points regarding verifiability. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 07:56, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'll leave my comment there for potential contribution to the debate, but I'll respond to myself with the note that I think you're right. On reflection, it occurs to me that there's no way for us to have reasonable confidence Dorner wrote all or any of that document merely because law enforcement states he did. Law enforcement statements unto themselves reported by reliable sources cannot automatically be regarded as reliable information for citation. (Maybe an exercise in lateral thinking at best, but one might even idly wonder whether the "manifesto" could be a forgery designed to give a select law enforcement body the latitude to summarily execute someone.) In the encyclopedia, such information needs to be based on in-depth retrospective (after events more fully unfold) analyses from those generally reliable sources, not their "real-time" reporting. I yield to your perspective as I understand it. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 08:26, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Neighbors of his described him as [x] person who usually kept to himself.

It was changed from "an admirable" to "a quiet." I changed it back to "admirable" because the article cited does say admirable (specifically, "admired"). And it mentions nothing of "quiet." Don't edit to fit your preconceived narratives; stick to the source information. Doesn't matter whether it sounds odd to you (it does to me, too). From the cited article:

“We were completely shocked,” he said. “This is a good family that appeared to be really nice people. They were really admired in the neighborhood.”

(Currently citation #4.) 74.67.54.145 (talk) 12:23, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

That quotation is describing the Dorner family, not necessarily Chris Dorner. No? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Precisely. GiantSnowman 14:54, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Pretty sure Chris Dorner is part of the Dorner family.74.79.239.198 (talk) 15:01, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I have members of family (unfortunately) who are in far-right hate groups, whereas I am the exact opposite. You can have a "nice" family with a bad member(s), or a "bad" family with a nice member(s). GiantSnowman 15:03, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Giant Snowman. You can have a good person coming from a bad family, and you can have a bad person coming from a good family. In any event, that quotation above is describing the family as being "nice and admired", not Chris Dorner himself. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:05, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Merge/redirect

I believe that WP:BLP1E in this case indicates that we should not have a separate article on Dorner, at least not at this point. --j⚛e decker^talk 16:12, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support merge/redirect - with no objection to the Christopher Jordan Dorner article being spun back out as a separate article at some point in the future, should there be consensus to do that. GiantSnowman 16:14, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support merge/redirect: Based on the guideline, I also support for now, with as GiantSnowman said, no objection whatsoever to the possibility of a separate article in the future. ProfessorTofty (talk) 17:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support Merge/Redirect - There is no need for a separate article at this time. All relevant information can be covered here. If the suspect becomes notable in his own right later on, we can easily make a split. In the meantime, it makes more sense to work on one unified article, and allow a separate bio article to grow as a section, if it does. Bigdan201 (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes <-- He has a page what's the difference.--Ron John (talk) 18:56, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• Strong support to keep separate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes has a page so should he.--Ron John (talk) 18:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. GiantSnowman 19:55, 8 February 2013 (UTC

Or to put it another way-- if you believe that there is a comparison, then explain why the two cases are comparable, and your example applies here, and is a sufficient argument to support your point. ProfessorTofty (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• Strong support to merge under Christopher Jordan Dorner article only - His name is more notable than his crimes. The guy's become an antihero, and this will only grow IMHO. He's not your common-or-garden ordinary criminal. He's intelligent, liberal, has sympathetic issues, writes well, and is well informed. He's also about to be killed on sight. American to the core. JohnClarknew (talk) 19:48, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

See this: List of serial killers in the United States. Every one of them blue linkable. JohnClarknew (talk) 03:24, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support merge/redirect to 2013 Southern California shootings per standard Wikipedia policy for such cases. Wikipedia:Notability (people) states "A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person." There is such an article, and that is where information about this individual should go. He is not notable for anything else. --MelanieN (talk) 22:40, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support merge. I mistakenly originally nominated the article for AfD but withdrew my nomination. As of this time there is not enough coverage to warrant an independent article; see WP:BLP1E. In terms of case studies, there may be a time when he is mentioned enough to be significant, but that will happen later, not now, and it's not our place to judge if that will happen. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support merge back into this article. Wikipedia guidelines are clear on this. The perpetrator of a single crime (or crime spree) is not notable for a biography page except in the case when a single article becomes overly long. WP:PERP -- Bob drobbs (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:45, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on February 9, 2013

number of injured is 5 ( 2 police officers, 3 civilians )(2 of the civilians injured due to a incident of mistaken idenity) Ommi9 (talk) 04:46, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

 Not done:The civilians injured were unrelated incidents, even if caused by the shootings. Ryan Vesey 17:15, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Hard to make the claim that they were "unrelated". They were, in fact, directly related. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:20, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

They are indeed directly related. The article currently has as much content about the manhunt and the police shooting of innocent civilians as there is content about the shootings perpetrated by Dorner, so showing the total injuries and adding a separate column for injuries caused by police isn't unreasonable at all. -- 74.1.184.234 (talk) 01:50, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, "unrelated" was the wrong word choice. The shootings of civilians was a result of the 2013 Southern California shootings, but wasn't part of the shootings. Ryan Vesey 01:53, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

(outdent) would you mind clarifying please, Ryan? 174.141.213.41 (talk) 02:27, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Serial killing as opposed to mass shooting

Doesn't this fit the definition of serial killing as opposed to mass killing? ScienceApe (talk) 04:51, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think serial killing works at all because it requires a wait period between each killing. It's closer to a Spree shooting except the incidents seem to be too far apart for that. Ryan Vesey 04:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Nope. The definition of a serial killer is given thusly:

An individual who has killed three or more people over a period of more than a month, with down time (a "cooling off period") between the murders, and whose motivation for killing is usually based on psychological gratification.

The suspect in this case does not fit this description because he has not gone through the "cooling off period" and his motive is not based on his own gratification. If you want to change the description from "mass killer" to "serial killer", you are going to need a source. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 05:00, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

It may be closer to the operative definition used on the spree killer page. N2e (talk) 19:50, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Prisondermonkeys, well from what I can tell Dorner has declared war against the LAPD, and his goals are creating change, not personal gratification, so I really don't see serial killer applying.

The best thing to do seems to be to refer to outside reliable sources, and see what labels/descriptive terms they are using. --Bob drobbs (talk) 04:56, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Manifesto in link is not the correct version

/b/ has inserted the last parts about tv-shows like shark week and personalities like Bill Cosby. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.130.113.36 (talk) 12:31, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

This. Simply because the manifesto is longer does not mean it is the un-redacted and "most correct" version. Here's the real version. http://pastebin.com/qPMFkJwp --118.148.235.31 (talk) 14:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, this is the one that was first posted. All these pop culture references et cetera were added about a day later. Either remove the later (longer) one entirely or at least point out that there are two versions which were posted with a day apart. 5.146.44.24 (talk) 02:58, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

This is becoming annoying. The link keeps getting changed. Did he really say all of that stuff about Cosby and Anonymous or not? ProfessorTofty (talk) 03:28, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I think we should leave the manifesto out for the time being. There appears to be a movement among some editors to link to it, and I believe that they are doing this to try and garner some kind of sympathy for Dorner. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:04, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

"Police shootings of civilians" -- Reaction???

The article will be improved, and more balanced, when Wikipedia begins to cover reactions to the police shooting of civilians. It has been over 48 hours since the two separate incidents of LAPD Police shooting at vehicles where they had made no serious identification of the suspect being in either vehicle, and had no license plate match; the vehicle just "sorta, kinda" matched the description of the vehicle of the primary suspect. This seems to be a rather obvious and eggegious case of police misconduct, or to keep it in the terminology of "alleged" and "suspect", of potential gross negligence by police.

Has there been no reaction by civil libertarians, police watch groups, etc.? Really? My sense is that surely there are notable statements by notable police watchdog groups, and some reliable source news coverage of the reaction to the police getting things so horribly wrong. Where is the police accountability, and is that not a valid topic for coverage on Wikipedia? N2e (talk) 19:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing much so far, this was the only thing I found relating to the ACLU and this case, but perhaps I'm missing something. Google News is a good place to start. --j⚛e decker^talk 20:45, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing there will be more in a few days. I still have not found any reliable source coverage of civil libertarian and police watchdog group reaction, but I did find a news source with the names of the victims of the first (of the two) police-on-civilian shootings, and a much fuller description of the two victims and how totally different both victims were in nearly every respect from the alleged perpetrator the police were looking for. I would hope that the internal affairs folks at LAPD have started an investigation, and will (eventually) have to answer questions on this alleged police misconduct by many journalists; would give us more info to flesh out that important aspect of the 2013 Southern California shootings. I've updated the article with some information from the one source I found. I expect we'll have more clarity in the coming weeks and days. N2e (talk) 01:25, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I suspect you're right, that there'll be more on it, right now things are moving so fast I'd be .. in those shoes, I'd be expressing (and I have) huge concerns, but I also know just how badly one can undercut oneself by relying on facts that aren't nailed down. I'm sure we'll hear more, and more reliable takes on things, as this progresses. --j⚛e decker^talk 01:35, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

New section? - LAPD reopening case into Dorner's firing

I think it might need a new section, because I'm not sure where else it fits. But here are two artices on how these Dorner's have caused his case to be reopened by the LAPD, and how they are putting a spotlight on LAPD racism and abuses past and current.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/09/searchers-struggle-to-pick-up-trail-former-los-angeles-cop-wanted-in-killing/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/fugitives-rant-puts-focus-evolving-lapd-legacy-18451078

Any suggestions on how to call the section? Does it fit under "reactions"? -- Bob drobbs (talk) 05:05, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

It's already mentioned in the timeline. It should probably stay there until something - if anything - comes of it. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I also think it is fine under "reactions" for now. Until more becomes of it. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 12:45, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I found it, under the "timeline of shootings", which seems that it should only include shootings. For now, I'll just adjust the title to "Timeline". When the article gets longer, and if there are more shootings, it'll probably make sense to break out the reactions into a new section. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 16:00, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Dorner's allegations (various)

How about they open a case, or the silent supposedly "liberal" media "open a case," into the following frighteningly believable section of Dorner's "manifesto"?

"Don't honor these fallen officers/dirtbags. When your family members die, they just see you as extra overtime at a crime scene and at a perimeter. Why would you value their lives when they clearly don't value yours or your family members lives? I've heard many officers who state they see dead victims as ATV's, Waverunners, RV’s and new clothes for their kids. Why would you shed a tear for them when they in return crack a smile for your loss because of the impending extra money they will receive in their next paycheck for sitting at your loved ones crime scene of 6 hours because of the overtime they will accrue. They take photos of your loved ones recently deceased bodies with their cellphones and play a game of who has the most graphic dead body of the night with officers from other divisions. This isn't just the 20 something year old officers, this is the 50 year old officers with significant time on the job as well who participate."

I know, it's Wikipedia. But I mean good God. That's got to be "encyclopedia worthy" somehow. 74.67.54.145 (talk) 09:00, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Current article title needs to be changed

The current article title of 2013 Southern California shootings has got to be a contender to win some sort of award for the most vague, mealy mouthed Wikipedia article title ever. Shootings occur in Southern California by the hour if not the minute. It's only 10 Feb 2013: there will be hundreds if not thousands more shootings between now and the end of 2013 in Southern California. Will all shootings in 2013 in Southern California henceforth be included in this article? In that case, then what about shootings in 2013 in Northern California; shootings in 2012 in Southern California and in all previous years; shootings in the rest of the fifty states of the USA, broken down region by region? No one looking for details about the alleged conduct of Christopher Dorner is going to search for 2013 Southern California shootings unless they already know the name of the article. An encyclopaedic article title needs to be precise, specific, and easily searchable and found. This applies to the Wikipedia article on Christopher Dorner by naming the article after the subject. In my view, this article needs to be merged, therefore, with that on Christopher Dorner. 58.165.123.47 (talk) 10:27, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

The problem with your suggestion is this. This is an article about Dorner's killing spree, it is not an article about the life and biography of Dorner. That is why this article cannot be named "Christopher Dorner". I agree that this title needs fixing. But the new title has to focus on the murders/killing spree/shootings, not on the name of the perpetrator. Any suggestions? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 12:50, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Concur with Joseph A. Spadaro: article title needs changed; the new title should not be Christopher Dorner. It appears, at this point in time, to be a bonafide shooting spree, where the suspect/perpetrator has not been located, so it is very likely a still unfolding event, and none of us know what form its end will take. So anyone with a good proposal for a better (possibly interim) article name, start a new Talk page section and propose it. Cheers. N2e (talk) 13:45, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Title suggestion: Christopher Dorner shootings -- Bob drobbs (talk) 16:02, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Impossible for BLP reasons. He is still just a suspect, and has not been convicted of anything. --MelanieN (talk) 17:05, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Title suggestion: Christopher Dorner manifesto and connected shootings 178.3.166.254 (talk) 17:49, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Change needed: Third police-attacked civilian was injured despite reports

The sections mentioning the third civilian attacked by police require change, according to this article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210,0,3955268.story

First it needs to be clarified that the LAPD reported no **visible** injuries, instead of **no** injuries. Secondly it needs to be mentioned that he did get hurt, as a result of a police cruiser crashing into his car in an effort to stop him. The summary at the top of the article needs to be changed, as well as the last paragraph under "Police shootings of civilians". 178.3.166.254 (talk) 17:48, 10 February 2013 (UTC)