Talk:British Isles

Political or geographical?

What is this article supposed to be? People with British nationalist viewpoints are on one hand saying this article is about a "geographical" area and not a political or cultural area, yet on the other hand are advocating that this article include loads of information about political/cultural similarities (i.e. include things which support their jingoistic/nationalistic ideas of Ireland as "British"). They can't have their cake and eat it. Americas is a genuinely geographical article. In sharp contrast, this British Isles article has a clear political agenda. The latest discussion about "expanding" the cultural/political section of this supposedly "geographic" concept is more proof of this. 93.107.125.213 (talk) 00:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing political in the article, nor was there any proposal to add any political information. And for the record, as the starter of the previous section, I'm hardly a "British Nationalist". I mean, I'm an American. In fact, my view on the section has changed in the past month and I'd now be fine with it being removed. But in the future, you should remember to WP:AGF -- MichiganCharms (talk) 21:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Well I'm not a British Nationalist at all. I'm a Scottish nationalist. However the term British Isles is the far most commonly used one. Shall we include Mann in the name ? Along with the 790 Scottish islands and the various islands of England etc. ? Would be a rather long name would it not ? Many archipelagos are named after the largest island in the group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.198.165 (talk) 01:10, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Incredible, that there's an article with this name in 2012

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Good faith proposals to move this page should go through Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves. Additionally, Wikipedia is not a forum. --RA (talk) 00:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Have any of the people who support this article name actually spoken with Irish people about this title? Using this title in 2012 has to be designed to score a British nationalist political point against the Irish. 109.76.214.233 (talk) 23:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC) If you looked in your history books you would see that the term has been around longer than there has been a British state. The name British Isles goes back to the Greco-Roman times. And I think you'll find that the majority of Irish people don't really care what they are called. Apart from anything else, British Isles is by far the preferred term throughout the world, and as Wikipedia uses common names as article titles, then at British Isles it will stay until such a time as some other term becomes favourable. Wikipedia is not about promoting political points of view. Arguably, calling the isles something other than the British Isles could be construed as being "designed to score an Irish nationalist point against the British". Indeed, there is an even stronger case for that as it flies in the face of what the common name for these islands are known as. Mac Tíre Cowag 00:09, 6 April 2012 (UTC) The British isles as a name is inherently political, and misleading as a description for the islands. It expressly denotes that the islands are British. Also, 'The British isles', as a term, for many living on the islands, particularly, in the Rep. of Ireland carries negative and imperial connotations. Given that the term itself offends and is seriously contentious it should not be used to describe the region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.130.82 (talk) 23:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Input requested

Your input is requested at the following discussions:

• Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_May_21#Politics_of_the_British_Isles,
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Politics in the British Isles
• In addition, your suggestions and improvements are welcomed to a newly created article here Politics_in_the_British_Isles. It still needs work... --KarlB (talk) 02:59, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

1RR

Is this article subject to 1RR only policy? Northern Arrow (talk) 19:44, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe it has been lifted but that should not be taken as a license to revert war. --RA (talk) 22:01, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that might have been directed at you RA ;). Regarding the bold text - it does look a bit silly there. I'm not going to bother arguing about changing "Britain and Ireland", but could we at least put the "Atlantic Archipelago" back to italics? I don't think anyone disagrees that it is not a significant alternative term. Outside academia that is. Allegedly :| Wiki-Ed (talk) 23:10, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

At least "Atlantic Archipelago", as ridiculous as it is, is geographically sound... — JonC^ॐ 23:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, in fairness, all of these terms can be detracted from for being unsound for one reason or another: British Isles; because not all of the isles are British, Britain and Ireland because not all of the islands are Britain or Ireland; Atlantic Archipelago because there are other archipelagos in the Atlantic; etc.

My 2¢ is that if its references and reasonably common (certainly like Britain and Ireland and, even, Atlantic Archipelago at a bit more of a stretch) then it's fair enough to show it in bold. --RA (talk) 23:58, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay, good point. Wiki-Ed (talk) 10:19, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure they should be bolded as it gives undue weight to alternate terms that are not exactly synomys. MilborneOne (talk) 16:14, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed they should maybe be in italics, but not bolded. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:ITALIC, they should not be in italic. "Italics may also be used where, in the course of using a term in an article, that term is being defined, introduced or distinguished in meaning... If, however, a term is strictly synonymous with the subject of the article, then bold face should be used in place of italics...." In this article, the terms are introduced as being synonymous with the article title, and therefore should be in bold (regardless of whether anyone thinks it looks "a bit silly"). Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:59, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. What is the big deal here? I know some people don't know about Atlantic archipelago, but it is used frequency in academia - just go to google scholar if you don't believe me.--KarlB (talk) 17:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason people dont know about it is because it is a little used term used in academia and is hardly a synonym for British Isles. It really is giving undue prominence and weight in the lead to something that is not that important, I am sure they will be a guideline against it somewhere. MilborneOne (talk) 17:08, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you. Use of Atlantic Archipelago is miniscule, even in academia. The problem with Google Books is that in cases like this, and taken on its own, it gives a distorted picture of the true situation. How many references are there to "British Isles" in Google Books? Compare the two figures; AA about 7,000, BI about 4,600,000. A synonym it is not. Northern Arrow (talk) 17:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so we're talking Google Scholar :) The ratio is comparable there. Northern Arrow (talk) 17:50, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

We have had this discussion before, but to reiterate to newer editors: The problem is that the sources say Atlantic Archipelago is becoming "favoured" in academia, in the same way they say Britain and Ireland is increasingly "preferred" in general. Neither statement is in any way quantitatively examined by those sources but according to WP:V we have to report what they say, not whether we think it is true or not. And as RA has said above, one can argue that all the terms are inaccurate or impossible to consider as synonyms for various reasons. So they either or all stay or they all go. If they stay then they have to go in bold as per the MoS policy. And yes I do think it looks a bit strange, but that's not a reason to change and this issue is not worth stirring up again. I think the reasoning provided by RA is sound. Let sleeping dogs lie. Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:43, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Clearly you can use WP:V to add anything but in reality nobody has heard of Atlantic Archipelago it is not a common name and clearly is against WP:WEIGHT and a lot of other acronym soup on wikipedia. It just is not notable enough for the lead never mind being in bold. I have no problem with it in the article under a - by the way a few academics have used a few different words section but anything else is undue weight. MilborneOne (talk) 22:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with acronyms. In terms of weighting you'll see that we have more sources supporting "Atlantic Archipelago" than we do "Britain and Ireland". In reality both terms are given undue weight by being mentioned at all because only a tiny minority of English speaking people use either of them. However, we cannot measure the size of those minorities relative to one-another so we mention both terms on the basis of what the sources tell us. Unless you have sources which counter that you're just expressing an opinion. Wiki-Ed (talk) 10:20, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Largely agreeing with Wiki-Ed's position, but I feel the need to point out that most of the sources telling us that the term was being increasingly used are from the period at the turn of the millennium, when there was a small flood of books in the "new British history". I am not sure how valid they are now in telling us the popularity of the term. While it looks as if more recent works may have gone back to British Isles (or avoiding the term altogether) I have not yet found something that says it has had its day (which is not conclusive - falls are more rarely noted than rises) (This is one of the closest so far [1]). Second, Pocock's formulation was actually "the North Atlantic Archipelago" (see [2]). The cumbersome addition is necessary because of all the other archipelagos in the ocean. Sometimes this is the "East Atlantic" or "North-East Atlantic", but since scholars are aware of this, AA is just a shortened way of saying this (See [3] for example). So if it is going up as an alternative, it probably, and horrendously, needs to be in its full form.--SabreBD (talk) 11:16, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Could we not simply do away with that last sentence. " As a result, Britain and Ireland is becoming a preferred description,[14][17][18] and Atlantic Archipelago is increasingly favoured in academia,[19][20][21][22] although British Isles is still commonly employed." And simply summarise saying as a result alternative terms and names are sometimes used although British Isles is still commonly employed? with a link to a note or something? Rather than naming these and having to bold both or treat one with additional undue weight. As far as im concerned the whole last paragraph is not notable for the introduction, but the biggest problem is the mention of these two names, especially as "Britain and Ireland" just isnt an alternative name for the British Isles, its a completely different term covering a different area than what consists of the British Isles. So fixing that last sentence would be progress at least. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:57, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

No, because some editors feel very strongly that it is an alternative and we've come to a compromise position. Also, please note, this section does have to be included in the introduction (the MoS requires controveries to be highlighted). Once again, can we leave this and move on? The article has been stable for a while. Wiki-Ed (talk) 12:29, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The original usage of the term by J. G. A. Pocock comes from here, I believe: [[4]]; in it, he calls it the Atlantic archipelago. It's unfortunate, because as others have pointed out, it *is* ambiguous, but you have to give him credit for trying. I agree that sometimes people call it North Atlantic isles or North-East atlantic archipelago or any number of other formations, but of all of them Atlantic archipelago, at least among academics of history and politics, seems to be the one that has stuck most (after BI of course). Also it is not just a turn-of-the-century thing; the Atlantic archipelago research project was founded in 2010, with a purpose of studying, well, the Atlantic archipelago. MilbourneOne's assertion that nobody has ever heard of atlantic archipelago is rather silly, considering there have been a number of books and papers published using this term, and wikipedia is certainly full of *lots* of things that nobody has ever heard of, save a few specialists, yet we keep them - and in this case we aren't even talking about an article (like Islands of the North Atlantic), this is just a mention; it is stable; and worth keeping. --KarlB (talk) 13:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify my silly statement - "nobody" was meant to mean 99.99999% of the world population who dont read academic or scientific books the main readers of this encyclopedia. I dont have a problem with a mention it was just the undue prominence by bolding in the lead that I objected to. Clearly compromise and stability have not been reached if new editors keep coming up with issues on this page. MilborneOne (talk) 16:40, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Personally most of this dicussion is moot. The Legal Definition is "British Isles". Has been since the Romans named it after the two main Islands. Britannica Superior, Britannica Inferior. Means big & small britiannica for those not understanding. In all offical documents, it is "HM Britannic Government" for over 1,000 years, until the labour party decided to reinvent the wheel and shape the world after themselves. The people take no notice of course, it's Britian and Ireland, the British Isles, which is the Offical School syballus. Second part. Acdemia always trys to push it's opinion, without any offical want of. The optional names for the british isles currently are politicial niceties. Not fact. And just because 7 books from ticket holders of a left wing organisation write books to support the "atlantic Isles" doesn't make it so. The Offical Legal definition is "British Isles". As I understand it, wiki rules dictate the offical title. Not wishy washy dreaming.

Correction needed here, Britannia (not Britannica) Superior was southern England, with admininistration at Londinium. Britannia Inferior was the northern area with administration at Eboracum (York). Just divisions for the purposes of administration. Nothing to do with the Island of Ireland, which was known to the Romans as "Hibernia", or confusingly "Scotia" (Scotland being Caledonia). Wikipedia is describing the common use, which is declining because it is becoming outdated. Canada and Mexico are in North America, but their people are not known as Americans, as there is no state which is called "America" (i.e. the United States of... distinguishes the nation from the continent) although their people are known as Americans. 194.74.0.10 (talk) 09:15, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

123.3.79.251 (talk) 00:02, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Out of interest, I presume the term Atlantic Archipelago would also include the Faroe Islands? 220.255.1.69 (talk) 07:00, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

"legal definition is British Isles", the "offical [sic] legal definition is British Isles" and it apparently appears in all "offical documents" - and you'll be able to support this utter nonsense from the John Bull school of British politics how, precisely? The Good Friday Agreement of 1998 between the British and Irish governments, where the British state intentionally avoids using it at every turn? Etc, etc. I thought not. Why bother. 79.97.154.238 (talk) 22:13, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Changes made in the interest of modernisation, deleted by another user

I made a number of minor edits to the article on the British Isles yesterday. These changes were reverted by another user:

"3 March 2013 (diff | hist) . . British Isles‎; 14:50 . . (-597)‎ . . ‎Ghmyrtle (talk | contribs)‎ (Revert. This has been much discussed, many times. Raise it on the talk page if you wish to pursue it.)"

No explanation was given for this, no discussion of my evidence, as provided by the underlined references, which included links to official Irish Government correspondence and UK newspapers that had covered the issue in detail.

I'd like to know why it is that this severely outdated and offensive (to some) term is being so staunchly defended in the face of evidence? It is a term coined in the colonial past and no longer in use by either sovereign government. Even geography books in the 21st century will omit the term (again as evidenced by the provided reference for Folens).

Below is a representation of changes I made to the article. I have emboldened the text that I updated:

The British Isles are a group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe that are sometimes thought to include the islands of Great Britain, Ireland and over six thousand smaller isles.[9] However, The term British Isles is politically loaded and has become somewhat dated as a geographical term, especially since the independence of part of the island of Ireland in 1948[10][11][12][13].

The British Isles also include three dependencies of the British Crown: the Isle of Man and, by tradition, the Bailiwick of Jersey and the Bailiwick of Guernsey in the Channel Islands. These latter two Crown Dependencies are not physically a part of the archipelago, which casts doubt as to the credibility of this term as being solely geographical in nature. [15][16]

The term British Isles is controversial in Ireland,[9][18] where there are objections to its usage due to the association of the word British with Ireland.[19] The Government of Ireland does not recognise or use the term[20] and its embassy in London discourages its use.[21] As a result, Britain and Ireland is used as an alternative description,[19][22][23] and Atlantic Archipelago has had limited use among a minority in academia,[24][25][26][27][22].

If there is indeed a mechanism for pursuing this, I would like to know of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcully (talk • contribs) 20:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

There are very very long discussions on the talk page archives. Editors have been blocked, sock puppets created found and blocked. etc etc. etc. I suggest you have a look at the archives and then see if you have anything new to offer. On the face of it you edit is no better sourced than previously rejected proposals ----Snowded ^TALK 21:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

And, indeed, we have whole articles on the Terminology of the British Isles and the British Isles naming dispute - articles which themselves have been the subject of lengthy discussion. The consensus position has been to retain the existing wording in this article, while recognising and acknowledging the Irish government's position. My explanation, in a few words in an edit summary, was to encapsulate in a few words the very, very, very large number of bytes that have been expended on this topic in the past (and, incidentally, not to "staunchly defend" anything other than the consensus that emerged from those debates). Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

-

Thank you for your response Ghmyrtle. It is appreciated. I have read through the lengthy discussion you referred to and you are right that there is a lot in there. However, I would simply contend that consensus amongst large numbers of people who are incorrect, does not make them correct. The point is, the 'British Isles', as a term, is no longer recognised as a physical geographical description. It fails to meet that criterion because it incorporates both cultural (Ireland) and political (Crown Dependencies) elements. The entire article is riddled with semantics that have divisive and partisan meaning. Unless a clear definition can be put forward (and I doubt one can be), I think that because of these multiple factors, the entire article should be rewritten to explicitly state the inherent subjectivity of the term. --Jcully (talk) 23:01, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Just throwing another point into this endless discussion. To start with I agree that the term 'British Isles' has become hopelessly mixed up between geographical and political definitions. The problem is the word 'British' which once neatly covered both the geographic and political meaning but these days has come to be associated with the country generally known as Britain although it is actually 'United Kingdom and Northern Island' (UK for short) and really should not be referred to as British. This being a given we have to reflect reality, common usage for citizens of the UK is British (messy terminology but we are stuck with it). The real problem here is the messy political term British being linked with the accurate geographical term 'British Isles'. I don't think it is Wikipedias role to try and take sides in this tricky and emotionally laden topic but I don't see any reason not to say that the phrase has acquired some political associations such as being unacceptable in the Republic of Ireland. The repeated references to the Anglo Irish agreement are irrelevant, that is a political agreement so there is no reason why it should refer to a geographical term. Mtpaley (talk) 23:32, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

The political implications of the term are set out in the fourth paragraph of the introduction. Giving higher precedence to those statements has been considered previously, but not accepted by a majority of editors. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:37, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

The term is still used as a physical label [5] [6]. UK weather forecasts frequently refer to the British Isles. I am unaware of any other common term available to English speakers in the UK (or elsewhere, as far as I know) to describe the entire group of islands. It's use as a(n incorrect) political label is no longer common in the UK. Most people I know refer to the UK, Northern Ireland and Ireland or, if clarification is required, southern Ireland or sometimes the republic of Ireland. It's difficult to accommodate the viewpoint from one side of the Celtic Sea together with the other, but the fourth paragraph of the article as it stands seems to do this well and, has been pointed out, there are articles devoted to detailed examination of the name itself and why it causes offence to some people in some parts of the world. The unilateral changes made (and since reverted) could be accused of being politically loaded as much as the term being discussed. Bazza (talk) 11:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I read the comment immediately above expecting another pointless rant. Instead I heard the voice of reason. Thank you.

Move to close this thread? --RA (talk) 12:07, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Let's wait a wee moment to give jcully the right to reply. As you've said, everything seems reasonably civilized so far. --HighKing (talk) 13:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

A general comment here: I want to point out that the term "British Isles" is almost never used politically or culturally. You'd be hard-pressed to find it outside of the realms of geographical or natural world terms. This is silly fringe-theory pushing at its best...--85.210.107.21 (talk) 16:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Dismissing the thoughts and opinions of other contributors as "silly fringe-theory pushing" indicates a low understanding of the issue. Cartographical publications have taken the conscious decision and expense to replace the term with something else; governments have decided to avoid or deprecate the term; journalism style-manuals include guidance on usage: it is obviously something important enough for consideration and note. Bazza (talk) 23:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

The far-too-long imo article is a morass of compromises, but such is life. The silliest compromise is in giving such prominent intro-space to the 99.9999999%-unused term "Atlantic archipelago" - it's just the obsession of a single Wikipedia user and his postcard-full of sources that he's scoured the globe for, and proof that 24/7 commitment gets you everywhere on Wikipedia in this area. Still, the article is looking a lot less radical than it once did - mainly because it used to be constantly locked on some variation of extreme. Still problematic are the unsourced "by tradition" (hmmm), and the misleading venn diagram that 'said person' would never allow to be replaced no matter what (even to the point of deleting the older ones that offered choice over the Channel Islands). The place is still a favourite haunt of people who want the UK broken up, and those who are loopy about how 'Great!' Britain is. But what can you do.

'British Isles' is basically a context-relavent term that has a hierarchy of definitions in different encyclopedias. What I found was that 'archipelago-only' is almost always without exception the first definition (ie "can also include the Channel Islands"). It just doesn't suit some people's POV for a vaguely-awkward (and for them utterly unwanted) term to make at least some kind of geographical sense and not be inherently (and oh so unfairly!) politicised. Still, I hear the term every day on TV in a variety of situations (rather like Northern Ireland being a 'country') and I often find I'm reading it too. People seem to be happy with the benign sense or form of 'Britain'. The social expriment that happened here and the rather-unpleasant exaggeration of how much it's actively disliked in Ireland (as if people really give a shite) clearly hasn't (at least to any large degree) worked. It's probably even less than the amount of British 'Northern Irish' people who dislike that particular use of the term 'Irish' in relation to them and the rock they live on. Which is good, because my main beef has always been that it's nothing short of scary that this place is ever used for political motives. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

On the first version of this page about ten years ago the political loadedness of the phrase was mentioned in the second sentence. Now, the politics, the controversy, attached to this name has been shoved way down the page. Such is the control British rightwing editors have gained over this joke of an article. 89.101.41.216 (talk) 16:36, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Bullshit! The only joke is the fact that the "controversy" is mentioned at all, because guess what, in the real world it doesn't exist. 86.25.28.163 (talk) 17:44, 9 March 2013 (UTC)