Talk:Angela Merkel

Moved here from article

Notable facts

• In her office Merkel has a picture of the German-born Russian Empress Catherine the Great, who is described by Merkel as "a strong woman".
• In July 2006, during the G8 Summit proceedings at Konstantinovsky Palace, United States President Bush strode up behind Merkel and clasped his hands upon her shoulders in a massage-like way. Bush's action startled Merkel, causing her to flail her arms. The awkward exchange became a popular viral video on YouTube
• At the 2006 WEF (World economic Forum) in Davos, Switzerland the newly elected Merkel was dubbed "Queen of Davos" by the other attendees and subsequently the World's media.
• On the 8 June 2006, Merkel launched her video podcast via the Bundeskanzlerin website, making her the first head of government to launch a regular video podcast.

Angela Merkel in Popular Culture

Hallo enWP, we have now a large article about the topic, named de:Angela Merkel/Öffentliche Wahrnehmung und Inszenierung - ist about scientific background and examples of public insignia, from travelling pantsuit till Merkel-Raute. I assume it would be a nice endeavour to have it translated, but would prefer to have a feedback at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Germany#Angela_Merkel_in_popular_culture. Cheers Serten (talk) 14:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

grandfather

Re: this and this. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to "take it to talk" when it's the other editor who is removing sourced text and changing the wording so that it doesn't match the source. Ok, the first time around it was sort of understandable as I had not had the chance to add a source. But that source has since been added so I would appreciate it if the info wasn't arbitrarily removed.

I'm also at a loss as to how this source [1] is supposed to prove anything. No page number, no nothing, just a bear link. All the other sources available describe Merkel's grandfather as a Pole (which is sort of the whole point and why the info is interesting).

Undoing the revert. Volunteer Marek  00:09, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the recent POV pushing → [2] [3] [4]

A new book about Angela Merkel, that was published earlier this year, revealed that her grandfather was a German citizen of Polish origin → Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, page 1915, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916 [5]. This theme was picked up by the sensational press and resulted in a photograph being published, a Polish journalist got from some distant relative (published by the Polish press), that supposedly shows the grandfather of Merkel in a Blue Army uniform. However, this was never confirmed.

Ludwig Kazmierczak was born in Posen, German Empire. His first name was "Ludwig", and he was a German citizen[6] Ludwig, joined the German Imperial Army in 1915, and fought on the western front. It is not known, whether he became a French POW or if he deserted in 1917/1918. That's when it gets tricky: There is the possibility, that he might have raised his arms against the German Empire as a soldier of an army unit that was formed under French command (made from German POWs with Polish origin) of which, in 1918, some units fought in the Allied campaign against the German Empire. However, all of this remained unconfirmed and is pure speculation. "Kämpfte damit also auch Merkels Großvater gegen das Deutsche Kaiserreich? Die "Gazeta Wyborcza" hält dies für wahrscheinlich. Vermutlich geriet Kazmierczak, der 1915 im Alter von 19 Jahren in die deutsche Armee eingezogen wurde und an der Westfront kämpfte, in französische Gefangenschaft oder desertierte. Irgendwie verschlug es ihn dann in das erste Artillerie-Regiment der Haller-Armee. Dieses kämpfte, so der Historiker Jaroslaw Luczak, 1918 in der Champagne gegen die Deutschen. Nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg zog das Regiment in den Krieg gegen die Rote Armee an der polnischen Ostgrenze. Wenn Merkels Großvater nicht krank oder verletzt war, kämpfte er vermutlich auch an dieser Front, bevor er in den 20er Jahren nach Deutschland zog und sich dort in Kasner umbenannte."[7] & "Diese Armee aber hat es in sich für einen Kanzleringroßvater: Sie wurde im Ersten Weltkrieg unter französischem Kommando aus deutschen Kriegsgefangenen polnischer Herkunft gebildet, und zumindest einige ihrer Einheiten haben 1918 in der Champagne gegen Kaiser und Vaterland gekämpft. Fachleute wie der polnische Historiker Wolodzimierz Boriodziej bestätigen dieser Zeitung nun, dass es damit nicht ausgeschlossen sei, dass auch Großvater Kazmierczak die Waffen gegen Deutschland erhoben haben könnte".[8]

Leaving aside the fact that the book clearly states: ...that Ludwig was a German citizen ("deutscher Staatsbürger") who did not feel very bound to his Polish heritage ("Gleichwohl sah sich die Familie auch ihrer polnischen Abstammung verpflichtet. Ludwig Kazmierczak fühlte aber offenbar nicht so"). After WWI and the Treaty of Versailles (Posen now being Polish), he left Posen for Berlin, married a German girl, named his boy "Horst" and changed/Germanized his surname to "Kasner".

But, after all! Relevance? What has all of this to do with Angela Merkel's "Early life"? --IIIraute (talk) 00:25, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Ummm, first... what exactly is the POV that is being pushed here? That Angela's grandfather was Polish? But... that's... what... all... the... sources... say. And how is this "POV" rather than just some weird IDONTLIKEIT on your part?

Second, of course Ludwig Kazmierczak was a German citizen (although he wasn't born one, obviously). He couldn't have been a "Polish citizen" as Poland didn't exist then, partly because Prussia had grabbed Poznań and Gdańsk from Poland and people in those territories had no choice but to end up as German citizens. By your logic this would mean that "Poles" simply didn't exist at all in the 19th and early 20th century and that they were created ex nihilo in 1919. Or something.

It's incorrect to describe him as "German of Polish origin". "Of Polish origin" is someone who's parents or grandparents were Polish but who themselves is not. Angela Merkel is (partly) "German of Polish origin". Her father was "German of Polish origin". But Ludwig himself was just Polish, straight up. He was "the origin". And that's why the sources call him Polish. For example "Ludwig Kazmierczak was Polish", or "Angela Merkel's grandfather came from Poland". Illraute, the "German of Polish origin" appears to be solely your own invention.

And are you seriously calling the Spiegel "sensationalist press"? With a straight face?

(or Gazeta Wyborcza for that matter?)

Also, I don't see what the purpose is of posting a large chunk of text in German. This is the English Wikipedia and the German text you quote says the same thing that is in the English language sources. That Ludwig was Polish. That he served in the Blue Army. And that that photograph shows this. Another words, the very information you are desperately trying to remove for some reason.

The idea that "this (the photograph) was never confirmed" and that "all of this (?) remained unconfirmed and is pure speculation" is, again, your own invention and original research. The nature of the military uniform was confirmed by historians and experts. As far as I know Angela did not in any way reject the authenticity of the photograph. Neither has anyone else. Except you, a random Wikipedia editor. You're on your own here though.

Finally, the relevance is obvious. You know "relevance" as in "relation" as in "kin". And of course the fact that this got a good bit of attention in the press, internationally, in Germany and in Poland.

Please undo your revert. Volunteer Marek  01:07, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

"According to the largest Polish daily "Gazeta Wyborcza," her grandfather Ludwig Kazmierczak was Polish and is believed to have fought against the Germans as a Polish soldier in 1918." According to this Polish newspaper, he was an ethnic Pole, however it is a fact that he was a German citizen. What "is believed" means, I think you do know. An Encyclopedia is not really about believing. Also, could you please point out the exact passage in "Der Spiegel" that states that he was not a German, but a Polish citizen! I hope you know that all the articles published about this, are in reference to the book I have mentioned above → Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, page 1915, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916. So I think, the book (all the articles are in reference to) to be sufficient, and very suitable as a source. --IIIraute (talk) 01:37, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

What "is believed" refers to the question of whether he fought against Germany or not. Given that he was in the Blue Army he "probably" did. But the sourced text you are repeatedly removing doesn't say that he fought against Germany, just that the Blue Army did. If you want to change the text to say that he "probably" fought against Germany be my guest. Still, a lot of reliable sources say exactly that.

Still, explain to me how this dispute over what "is believed" justifies you removing well sourced text about the other stuff? And you keep bringing the book up but the book and the other sources (Der Spiegel, Gazeta etc.) are not in any way disagreeing with each other. They all say the same stuff. The stuff which you are trying to delete because you just happen not to like it. Too bad for you.

And your statement asking for "passage in "Der Spiegel" that states that he was not a German, but a Polish citizen!" appears to be a purposeful way of NOT. GETTING. THE. POINT. Like I said above, of course he was a German citizen, he had to be. I never claimed Der Spiegel said he was a Polish citizen, which would be ridiculous since "Polish citizens" did not exist at the time. Der Spiegel just says... that he was a Pole.

Quit playing around. Volunteer Marek  02:32, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

"Der Spiegel" cites the book → Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, page 1915, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916 [9]. So do all other articles. Henceforth, it is the book we really have to give our attention to. The book states that he was a German citizen with "Polish roots" (...deutscher Staatsbürger ... polnische Wurzeln). What is established, is that he joined the German Imperial Army in 1915, and fought for the German Empire on the Western Front. You did fail to mention that. It is not known under what circumstances he was conscripted for the Blue Army, nor if he ever did raise his arms against the German Empire. Otherwise, please provide sources claiming the contrary. What we do know is that he was born a Prussian/German Empire citizen, an ethnic Pole, who did not feel very bound to his Polish heritage ("Gleichwohl sah sich die Familie auch ihrer polnischen Abstammung verpflichtet. Ludwig Kazmierczak fühlte aber offenbar nicht so"). And after WWI, and the Treaty of Versailles (Posen now being Polish), he left Posen for Berlin, married a German girl, named his boy "Horst" and changed/Germanized his surname to "Kasner", and later also died as a German citizen. He obviously, very much wanted to be German. Why would you seriously claim that he was not → Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies? --IIIraute (talk) 03:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I really don't know what else to say here except to repeat myself - you're just not listening:

1. No one's denying he was a German citizen (after 1915). He couldn't have been a "Polish citizen" because Poland didn't exist at the time, partly because it was partitioned by Prussia - so what? But, as you yourself point out, he was an ethnic Pole and is described as such in the sources. So why are you removing this information?

2. The book and the sources like the Spiegel (which you previously described as "sensationalist press"! WTF?) are not in disagreement. They say the same thing. It's you who's making stuff up.

3. And now you're even agreeing that he was in the Blue Army (the "conscripted" part is your own original research, again). I have no idea "what sources to the contrary" I'm suppose to provide. The sources say he was in in it. What else do you want? And then - sigh, again - why are you removing the text that you admit is reliably sourced?

4. As to his Germanization - sure. It's already in the text. And no one's trying to remove that. YOU are trying to remove other pertinent info. And then you have the chutzpah to accuse OTHERS of "POV pushing"? Please.

At the end of the day it comes down to reliable sources. And these say what the text I added says. You have some kind of an obsession with "pure Germaness" or something so you insist on removing it. Sorry, your own personal hang ups are not a reason to remove reliably sourced text. See WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Volunteer Marek  03:49, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

1. The Province of Posen was a province of Prussia, and as such, part of the German Empire until 1918. Ludwig was born a Prussian/German Empire citizen, who after WWI, and the Treaty of Versailles (Posen now being Polish), left Posen for Berlin, Germany, married a German girl, named his boy "Horst" and changed/Germanized his surname to "Kasner", and later also died as a German citizen.

2. The book (all the articles are based on) states that he was a "German citizen" with "Polish roots" (...deutscher Staatsbürger ... polnische Wurzeln). That's exactly what the article should state. Please see → WP:RS & Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies.

3. I maintain, that it is not known under what circumstances he was conscripted, or if he voluntarily joined the Blue Army, nor if he ever did raise his arms against the German Empire, or ever did join the Blue Army at all. There is only a picture from after the war that depicts him (and his wife who he met in Berlin in the 1920s) in a Blue Army uniform. There are no army records that support that claim. Otherwise, please provide sources claiming the contrary. All sources you are citing use "weasel words".

4. No idea what you are talking about. Please see number 1. & number 2.

5. I recommend we ask/wait for comments from other editors. --IIIraute (talk) 04:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

<-- You're obviously suffering form a bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.

No one's disputing that Ludwig Kazmierczak had German citizenship (after 1915). Will you please stop beating on that poor and irrelevant strawman? What matter is that sources describe him as Polish. Der Spiegel. Gazeta Wyborcza. And more. Another example, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung:

"Ihr Großvater Ludwig Kazmierczak war offenbar ein waschechter Pole - und hat als Soldat der Haller-Armee möglicherweise die Waffen gegen Deutschland erhoben."

Translation: "Her grandfather Ludwig Kazmierczak was obviously a genuine Pole - and as a soldier of the Haller Army (the Blue Army - VM) may have took up arms against Germany."

[10]

You can maintain whatever pleases you most. But that. Doesn't. Matter. Articles on Wikipedia are not written based on idiosyncratic opinions of random editors and the things they "maintain". They are written based on reliable sources. And reliable sources call Kazmierczak a Pole (it's Angela herself who has "Polish roots") and they state he was in the Blue Army. The most respectable German newspapers (not "sensationalist media" as you tried to pretend earlier) have no problem with it, just you. So quit it with the games playing, the IDIDNTHEARTHAT and the WP:IDONTLIKEIT and quit removing well sourced material. Volunteer Marek  16:21, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry IIIraute, but Marek is, indeed, right. Your behavior is a classic case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The fact that Ludwig was born in the German Empire doesn't make him less of a Pole. Armenians didn't have a state from 1375 until 1918 and every Armenian who was born in that period was not an Armenian? --Երևանցի ^talk 22:38, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

please see number 4.↓↓ --IIIraute (talk) 23:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

1. The newspaper articles you have provided are all based on the same book: Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, page 1915, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916. The book (all the articles are based on) states that he was a "German citizen" with "Polish roots" (...deutscher Staatsbürger ... polnische Wurzeln). That's exactly what the article should state, and not some adulterated teaser version from a newspaper that claims to state the revelations/content of that very same book, while it obviously does not.

2. Per WP:RS → WP:SCHOLARSHIP, the original source, i.e. the book, does supersede the newspaper articles that are merely based/cite from that source. Please, also see → WP:NEWSORG: "News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. "News reporting" from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors)." All of the articles you have provided have only copied each others content → "Some stories are republished or passed along by multiple news organizations. This is especially true for wire services such as the Associated Press. Each single story must only count as being one source."

3. Regarding: "Her grandfather Ludwig Kazmierczak was obviously a genuine Pole - and as a soldier of the Haller Army may have took up arms against Germany.", please see → WP:NEWSORG: "The reporting of rumors has a limited encyclopedic value, although in some instances verifiable information about rumors may be appropriate. Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors." I still doubt that this information is of relevance for the "Early life" of Angela Merkel.

4. Regarding nationality, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies clearly states: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable." --IIIraute (talk) 23:03, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

You don't need to copy-paste the same thing over and over. The quote from the Manual of Style is about the Opening paragraph (a.k.a. the introduction or the lead). No one here argues that Merkel herself is Polish, nor that her grandfather's ethnicity should be mentioned in the lead, because its irrelevant. It should be mentioned lower in the article. Again, as I already said. Him being a German citizen doesn't make him a German. You still didn't get the point. A German of Polish origin means that he considered himself a German and was a Pole just by blood, which was not the case. Take Ronald Reagan. He is an American of Irish origin. See the difference? His ancestors migrated from Ireland. That is when "origin" comes to play. Merkel's paternal grandfather, Ludwig Kazmierczak, was a Pole born in 1896 in Posen (now Poznań, Poland), at that time part of the German Empire. is accurate enough for the reader to understand that we has a German national (because it clearly states that Poznan was part of Germany at that time of his birth). Here, take Hovhannes Tumanyan. He was born in the Russian Empire and died in Soviet Russia, he never ever lived in independent Armenia, but no one ever calls him Russian. --Երևանցի ^talk 00:03, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

You should pay a bit more attention before making such unqualified statements: "A German of Polish origin means that he considered himself a German and was a Pole just by blood, which was not the case.". What we do know is that he was born a Prussian/German Empire citizen, an ethnic Pole, "who did not feel bound to his Polish heritage". Quote from the book: "Gleichwohl sah sich die Familie auch ihrer polnischen Abstammung verpflichtet. Ludwig Kazmierczak fühlte aber offenbar nicht so".[11] And after WWI, and the Treaty of Versailles (Posen now being Polish), he left Posen for Berlin, Germany, married a German girl, named his boy "Horst" and changed/Germanized his surname to "Kasner", and later also died as a German citizen. He obviously did not want to be a Pole, but considered himself a German.--IIIraute (talk) 00:42, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

According to Google Translate the sentence says "Nevertheless, the family saw also committed their Polish ancestry. Ludwig Kazmierczak did but apparently not", which is quite different from "not feeling bound to his Polish heritage". Are we discussing your own personal interpretations here? Such as he "obviously did not want to be a Pole"? As I already stated "by origin" is only used to refer to one's descend. He was not a Pole by descend, but by birth and family and culture. And he was a German by citizenship like millions of other Poles, Jews, etc. --Երևանցի ^talk 01:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

He had the choice in 1919, Pole or German, didn't he? But he wanted to be German. It's a fact. By birth, he was Prussian/German, a citizen of Prussia/German Empire. The book literally states, that he "did not want to return to his polish roots." See citation below. ↓↓ [12] --IIIraute (talk) 02:21, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Illraute, you keep linking to the no-preview-google-books-page for the Kornelius book AS IF it proved something. And then offering your own interpretations of it and pretending that just linking to the no-preview-google-books-page justifies your own inventions. Look, we all know the book exists. Its existence is why we are discussing this in the first place. Stop pretending that you are "sourcing" something. You're not. Volunteer Marek  01:22, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916, literally states that he was a: "German citizen" with "Polish roots" (...deutscher Staatsbürger ... polnische Wurzeln) → page 1915 → [13] & [14]. → "Zum Zeitpunkt der Geburt des Großvaters war Posen Teil des Deutschen Reichs, Ludwig war also formell deutscher Staatsbürger. ... 1919, nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg und mit dem Versailler Vertrag, fiel Posen wieder an Polen zurück. ... viele aus der deutschen Minderheit aus der Region aus — darunter einige, die offenbar nicht zu ihren polnischen Wurzeln zurückwollten. Auch Ludwig Kazmierczak verließ die Heimat, machte sich auf nach Berlin und ließ Teile der Familie zurück.". --IIIraute (talk) 02:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Illraute, your other argument seems to boil down to the assertion that sources such as Der Spiegel or the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung are somehow misrepresenting Kornelius' book, by calling Kazmierczak a Pole. According to your interpretation of Korenlius. Somehow I doubt that is the case. There's misrepresentin' going on here but it's not by the sources. Likewise, you can repeat until you're... blue ... in the face that you don't believe that Kazimerczak was in the Blue Army but your opinion has no weight when the sources say otherwise. Volunteer Marek  00:10, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Please see 1. & 2. The original source (Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, page 1915, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916.) clearly states that he was a "German citizen" with "Polish roots" (...deutscher Staatsbürger ... polnische Wurzeln). Period. --IIIraute (talk) 00:13, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Please see WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Volunteer Marek  00:23, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:RS the article will state the content of the original secondary source, that does supersede the newspaper articles that are merely based/cite from that source. --IIIraute (talk) 00:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:RS the information found in reliable sources like Der Spiegel or the Frankfurter takes precedence over one particular Wikipedia editor's idiosyncratic interpretation of the source. Sorry. Volunteer Marek  01:22, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916, literally states that he was a: "German citizen" with "Polish roots" (...deutscher Staatsbürger ... polnische Wurzeln) → page 1915 → [15] & [16]. --IIIraute (talk) 02:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Your first link just shows that Kornelius' book exists. Ok. Like I said that's no news. You keep linking to it over and over and pretend that just this bare link supports your original research.

Your second link... well, I don't even know what that's supposed to be. It's a google search for a couple of phrases which you keep repeating over and over here as if they meant something. And it links to... 1) a source I already gave above which says nothing like what you are pretending it says, 2) a completely irrelevant book [17] about nothing to do with this subject what so ever and ... 3) another completely irrelevant book [18] (some stuff about Hollywood?)

At this point it's hard to say anything but: W. T. F.? You are providing links to completely random and completely unrelated sources and at the same time pretending that these somehow support you?

I'm sorry but this has stopped being a serious discussion some time ago. Volunteer Marek  02:29, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

It is not my problem that you do not have access to the book → WP:OFFLINE. I have properly referenced the cited passages. Go to a library. (Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916, page 1915 → chapter: "Die andere Welt, Ein behütetes Leben in der DDR") --IIIraute (talk) 02:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The book (Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, page 1915, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916), all the articles are based on, literally states that he was a "German citizen" with "Polish roots" → [19]. ⇒ Not once, in the whole book, the term "Pole" is used! ⇐

The Guardian newspaper has properly cited the passages in question:

⇒ "Not only was her grandfather of Polish origin, the chancellor almost was born Angela Kazmierczak. Her grandfather was a Ludwig Kazmierczak, born 1896 in Poznan – then part of the German Reich. The family was proud of its Polish roots. Obviously not grandpa Ludwig who emigrated to Berlin when Poznan became Polish again after the first world war. He married a Berlin woman, and they had a son – Horst Kazmierczak, Angela's father. The family decided to cut their Polish roots in the early 30s. The Kazmierczaks followed a common fashion and Germanised their family name to Kasner." [20] ⇐

Per WP:RS, the original secondary source, i.e. the book, does supersede the newspaper articles that are merely based/cite from that source! I demand, per several WP policies, that this book is used as the main reference! --IIIraute (talk) 00:00, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Changed info according to "Official Biography" ("Angela Merkel: The Authorised Biography by Stefan Kornelius"[21]). Stefan Kornelius is Merkel's official biographer[22].

Please see:Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, page 7, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916 [23][24]. The second reference ("The Guardian" article → [25]) was also written by Merkel's official biographer Stefan Kornelius. --IIIraute (talk) 23:14, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Look. At this point I don't know what you want me to say. You're engaging in a lot of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, as noted by several other editors. You have your own ... idiosyncratic interpretation of sources, but that interpretation does not jive with the majority of reliable sources that are actually provided in the article. You keep bringing up Kornelius and pretending that just linking to his book supports your... idiosyncratic POV text, but it doesn't. Actually, come to think of it, linking to a source and claiming that it supports your edits when in fact the source doesn't is called "misrepresenting the source" or less charitably, "lying". So stop it. Volunteer Marek  08:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh my, whole paragraph about grandfather and in which armies he may have fought? This is just retarded yellow press style promotion of some Germany vs Poland controversy. At most it would deserve a single sentence of Merkel having some Polish ancestry from paternal grandfathers side and thats it. Whole "in which armies her grandfather served and against whom he may have fought" is clearly just a trivia.--Staberinde (talk) 14:01, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Except it's not yellow journalism nor is there a "German vs Poland controversy"... except of course on Wikipedia. Her grandfather was a Pole who served in a Polish army and might have fought against Germany. It's an interesting and relevant fact, particularly given the political context, the friendly relationship between Merkel and the Polish Prime Minister Tusk, and the general popularity of Merkel in Poland. And it's been extensively covered by the media. The Poles are cool with it. The Germans - and the German press (I linked to several German sources above) - are cool with it. It's just on Wikipedia that some guy's gotta make a huge deal out of it and make it his life mission to deny the info and present his own idiosyncratic version. Par for the course of course. Volunteer Marek  09:38, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, Illraute, can you give a more extensive quotation from the book where it says that Kazmierczak "hat polnische Wurzeln"? Like the paragraph it's in. Because every source out there when they talk about who "hat polnische Wurzeln" they are referring to Merkel herself, not Kazmierczak. So let's see it. Volunteer Marek  10:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Its trivia, plain and simple. Interesting? Possibly. Actually relevant to Merkel's early life to extent its given space in article? No way.--Staberinde (talk) 10:38, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree, it is trivia, and of no relevance for the "early life" of Angela Merkel. I did make this point in my first comment. The content is already covered in the Horst Kasner article - that is where it belongs.

The biography, "Angela Merkel: The Authorised Biography by Stefan Kornelius", states the following → "Horsts Vater Ludwig, Angelas Grossvater, wurde 1896 in Posen geboren - allerdings nicht als Ludwig Kasner, sondern als Ludwig Kazmierczak. Wie die Mehrheit der Bevölkerung in der Provinz Posen hatte die Familie Kazmierczak polnische Wurzeln."[26][27] (Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: Die Kanzlerin und ihre Welt, Hoffmann und Campe, 2013, page 7, ISBN-13: 978-3455502916).

Official biographer, Stefan Kornelius, writing for "The Guardian": "Not only was her grandfather of Polish origin, the chancellor almost was born Angela Kazmierczak. Her grandfather was a Ludwig Kazmierczak, born 1896 in Poznan – then part of the German Reich. The family was proud of its Polish roots. Obviously not grandpa Ludwig who emigrated to Berlin when Poznan became Polish again after the first world war. He married a Berlin woman, and they had a son – Horst Kazmierczak, Angela's father. The family decided to cut their Polish roots in the early 30s. The Kazmierczaks followed a common fashion and Germanised their family name to Kasner."[28] --IIIraute (talk) 22:02, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Unexplained change to introduction

I see that the text

• "She is the first woman to hold either office."

has again been changed to

• "She is the first woman to hold both offices."

without any explanation. In my opinion, the changed version means that no other woman has held both offices before, stongly implying that some unknown woman has held one of the offices before. The original text was the most concise way of expressing that she was the first woman chancellor and the first woman leader of the CDU, which is, in my opinion what the statement is meant to say. I suppose it is possible that one of these statements has a different meaning in some variant of English, but I would like to see third-party confirmation if that is believed to be the case. If no convincing explanation for the change is forthcoming, I will again revert. I suggest compliance with WP:BRD. --Boson (talk) 23:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

• I concur with Boson. That said, as I haven't edited the article myself, I will just warn here that the nascent edit war is not a solution. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Support for Iraq War 2003

Merkel was in support of the Iraq war und wanted to join the USA in case she was elected in the year 2002.