Talk:Adi Shankara

Edit request on 15 May 2013

please change http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Shankaracharya#Mathas to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita#Advaita%20Mathas for only Shishya name on table.

117.237.194.209 (talk) 14:27, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I could copy-paste the extended information into this article, but not right now; real life is waiting for me at this very moment. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I must be missing something....I don't see the text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Shankaracharya#Mathas anywhere in this article. So it was already taken care of...or wasn't needing to be taken care of in the first place. If there is still an error somewhere, please change the template back to no and provide more infomation onto where this link appears. Thanks! ^Jguy_Talk^Done 18:05, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The link is incorrect; 117.237.194.209 means "copy Advaita Vedanta#Advaita Mathas into Adi_Shankaracharya#Mathas; the Advaita Vedanta article has got a longer section on this topic. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:15, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I've copied the info + the sources. greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Ādi Śaṅkarācāri

In Southern India Ādi Śaṅkarācārya is very commonly called Ādi Śaṅkarācāri. Since the edit was deleted [1] started this discussion. Please check Google books, Google search results to understand the same. Please check the following links [2], [3] Please google non IAST spellings like Sankaracari, Sankarachari, Sankarachary to understand its popularity. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 11:58, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Vishwakarma claim

My attention has recently been drawn once again to wild claims being made on Wikipedia by members of the Viskwakarma community. They make much of the work done by Alfred Edward Roberts, Proctor of Ceylon and author of Vishwakarma and his Descendants. This is a very dubious work that in this particular context is quoting an equally dubious work, ie: an unspecified version of the Shankara Vijayam.

The Worldcat entry for "Alfred Edward Roberts" shows only one publication, which is unusual for a scholar. The claim made in various of our articles, including this one, is that Roberts held an official position as proctor in Ceylon. A proctor at that time in that place was an appointed legal official, although he is not named in Arnold Wright's fairly comprehensive 1907 list of officials nor can I find him in the London Gazette of the period. You'll find almost nothing but ourselves and mirrors for his name and location on Google Search and there is nothing accessible to me at Google Books other than a couple of snippets (eg: on p. 159 of this) which note that the name was in fact a pseudonym and seems to be suggesting that the work "attempted a truly spectacular coup" on behalf of the Viswakarma community.

I can find nothing to indicate of whom AER might be a pseudonym or even if that person had any official standing anywhere. Given the massive interest that the Brits had in (usually amateurish and now-discredited) recountings of the ethnography of India, especially in the period of publication, there was no shame in him using his real-life name and I am unaware of a single major figure of that period who did.

Drilling down on the Roberts Worldcat entry gives four variants. What qualification a lawyer might have to author an 80-page book about a native community is a complete mystery to me. It seems likely to have been published originally in 1909 by a Vishwakarma publisher and then re-published as a second edition in 1946 by a pandit whom I am reasonably suspicious will turn out also to have been Vishwakarma. The pandit title is often self-proclaimed or recognised only by members of the community of whom the person is a member. Two of the variants at Worldcat also refer to a co-author called Ratnajinendra Rabel Ratnawira - this latter person gets only one GSearch hit and that is for this book. My suspicion is that at best Roberts, like so many British administrators of his type and era, relied on folklore accounts given to him by locals of dubious merit; like many of them - eg: Edgar Thurston - he (Roberts) may not even have understood the language. For all we know, Roberts and Ratnawira may have been the same person.

It is well-known to those of us who work in the caste area of Wikipedia that puffery is common and it is my belief that this book was likely being used for that purpose at the time of publication and is so now. More, the existence of such puffed-up claims are acknowledged by academics, notably M. N. Srinivas in his seminal study of the sanskritisation process. I'd go so far as to suggest that the original publication may have been more or less an academic hoax. There are no citations of him or his book at JSTOR, other than p. 165 of this, which appears to indicate that the original 1909 publication was indeed made by a Vishwakarma advocacy group. There are no citations of him or his book at GBooks other than in the context already referred to above (ie: the pseudonym aspect). The Vishwakarma community are well-known for making a claim of Brahmin status that is generally not accepted by any other community. That claim has been pushed tendentiously on Wikipedia by self-identified community members, usually by citing Roberts, and we really do need to put a stop to this. - Sitush (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

BTW, for anyone who enjoys the idea of having bleeding eyes, feel free to read Talk:Vishwakarma (caste) where this type of nonsense has been going on for years. This time round, I've had enough and I'm going to fix it properly. - Sitush (talk) 03:49, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

why dont you remove this two worthless citations http://who.is/whois/advaita-vedanta.org and http://who.is/whois/exoticindiaart.com used to clime namboothiri caste ? this third party private websites have any academical credential ? adi shankaracharya was born in brahmin family not namboothiri or vishwakarma remove caste section from there until we get clear information — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gopalan Acharya (talk • contribs) 04:49, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Gopalan, your observation of the poor sourcing of that content is indeed accurate, and I have therefore removed it from the article. Her is the bit that was removed, in case you or some other editor wish to find better sources for it. Abecedare (talk) 04:58, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Adi Shankara Caste

Both of you were warned in this very thread that I would collapse it if you continued to argue the toss about something that is based entirely on original research & often has little to do with this article. Please go read WP:TPG and take your discussion off-Wiki. - Sitush (talk) 17:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Shankaracharya himself stated that he was belong to Viswakarma community through his books. Then why is this debates? The sloka "Acharyo sankarao nama, Twostha putra nisamshaya, Viprakula gurordweeksha, Vishwakarman thu Brahmana." reveals the same! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterjith (talk • contribs) 20:43, 29 October 2013 (UTC) As a general rule, the reason why people want to see the caste of other people mentioned in Wikipedia articles is because it reflects well on themselves, not because it is particularly relevant. This is also the reason why the caste of "uncomplimentary" people (criminals, for example) often seems to be ignored. Caste is a social construct and in almost all cases has no bearing on why a person's life is significant, although there are well-known exceptions (eg: Ambedkar). I've no idea why Adi Shankara's caste has any bearing on his notability but I do know that the shloka and various other things have been and gone in this article. Can you find any modern reliable sources that mention his caste and explain why it is significant to his life? Members of the Vishwakarma community are among the most vociferous of POV-pushers here on Wikipedia, so the sources and rationale for inclusion will need to be impeccable. - Sitush (talk) 21:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC) I dont know, why people are considering only modern sources as a reliable one! To know about Sankaracharya, the oldest books are the reliable source because he was a historic person. The sloka "Acharyo sankarao nama, Twostha putra nisamshaya, Viprakula gurordweeksha, Vishwakarman thu Brahmana." is from ShankaraVijayam. It is written by himself. We cant produce more reliable one than Shankaras books. An auto biography or diary is more reliable than the words of others. If somebody is trying to study about Hinduism, he or she should study the Vedas. Because Vedas are the base of Hinduism. For this there modern books are nothing comparing with Vedas. Like that, To know about Shankaracharya, we should consider his own books. We should consider at least his names. From the ancient period itself, in his native place Kerala he is well known as 'Adi Shankarachari' or 'Adi Shankaracharya'. Both the surnames Achari and Acharya are the common surnames of Viswakarma Brahmins of Kerala.--Masterjith (talk) 20:03, 8 November 2013 (UTC) Please give shankara vijaya's page number and details — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gopalan Acharya (talk • contribs) 05:15, 30 November 2013 (UTC) Gopalan Acharyaji the Origial Shankara Vijaya by Anandagiri used to cite Shankara's birth place as Chidambaram and it has been edited to Kalady in subsequent editions? So are editings being done with the original texts? Shouldn't the originals be maintained as they are? The page 32 of "Kanchi Kamakoti Math, a Myth" by Varanasi Raj Gopal Sharma cites "Even the Kanchi Math in the re-edited text of Anandagiri Shankara Vijayam has taken off Chidambaram and named Khalati as the place of birth". Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 04:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC) All newly printed shankara vijays are not with the Original story, we have to find 100+ years old shankara vijaya to get real birth details of shankaracharya but it is difficult to find original one because there is lot of shankara vijaya written by historians and conspiracy theorists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.15.211.73 (talk) 05:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC) Ganesh J. Acharya According to vedas and purana there is only one brahmin caste they are Vishwabrahmin but in wikipedia somebody trying to erase original history — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gopalan Acharya (talk • contribs) 11:18, 20 January 2014 (UTC) There is a snippet preview of the same available here Kanchi Kamakoti Math, a Myth,by Varanasi Raj Gopal Sharma [4] Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 15:41, 7 February 2014 (UTC) Snippet view here, too. Such views are not acceptable and, in any case, I doubt that source is reliable. I really do think that you lot should give up on this: it doesn't seem to be terribly important anyway, except perhaps for the purposes of reflected glory and your own vanity. - Sitush (talk) 15:56, 7 February 2014 (UTC) "except perhaps for the purposes of reflected glory and your own vanity." I am trying to bring up facts here. I guess a snippet preview helps visually seeing the actual source. Also since we just went through this ANI complaint User:Sitush_plus_a_group_is_possibly_trying_to_put_communities_in_India_to_a_fight I would rather avoid engaging you with discussions other then the source. Could you kindly point out why you think this source is not reliable other than going into other details? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 16:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC) "Visually seeing" isn't what's important. What matters is reliable sources and the ability to take individual citations from them within the proper context. Using Google snippets, especially in contested articles, is not acceptable. I admit I find it very, very difficult to follow the discussion (because of sub-par punctuation and grammar in some of the contributions here by Masterjith and the IP editor), but questions of what's reliable or not are of the utmost importance and should, in the case of dispute, be answered at WP:RSN. Google snippets are never a substitute for the real thing. Ganesh, I suggest you stop linking to that now-closed ANI thread: it blew up in your face, and your use of the link as a tool to blackball Sitush is not acceptable. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 16:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC) If that ANI thread has blown my face I should be worried about it and not Sitush. Thanks for suggesting WP:RSN I will try and learn to use the same. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 17:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC) Ganesh, the first half of this recent discussion at RSN may help you regarding snippets. The book that you link may be pseudo-history of the type peddled by Ishwar Sharan but in any event if no-one can see it then it is by default unreliable. I can find one citation of it - here - but it is not encouraging ("supposed" is vague and the point is not developed). Pseudo-history is a big problem with Indian authors who write of these ancient times. - Sitush (talk) 17:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC) Does wikipidia now require to publish entire page/books hereafter? That would be copyright violation. Which is why google books is only showing a snippet preview and not the entire page. So, what is that now wikipedians are expecting to do? As per the legal requirement one is not supposed to publish/quote more than the text that is actually required. If that snippet preview is not clarifying the context there is no way one can quote more than that or otherwise it is a legal violation. Curious wikipedians wanting to know the entire facts must buy the book. Again in this case the line on that "snippet" explains it well. Does anyone have any doubt that it can have other context then the one cited? If the source says "Even the Kanchi Math in the re-edited text of Anandgiri Shankara Vijayam has taken off. Chidambaram and named Kalati as the place of birth"? Editorial standards required one to read the source as a whole. This preview is presenting the whole context, what more is required? Sitush, time and again you have expressed such sentiments "except perhaps for the purposes of reflected glory and your own vanity.". If that is what it was I would have not fixed the above J.A.H.R.S. reference. Also, w.r.t to my vanity I am as anyone else in the world a progenitor of GOD thyself. So, don't worry about my vanity since GOD is the purest of all, the vanity will never taint. If at all I show any kind of bias it is my personal vanity that will effect. Also I thank to GOD that I could detect that before anyone else could. Also if a bias is introduced someone or the other will pick it up and it will only bring in Shame which I am well aware of. So, don't worry I would not introduce a bias deliberately for but obvious reasons. Also it is a request not to quote these and stick to the technicalities of the source or otherwise one is bound to clarify. Also when this is quoted in Rig Veda "Mighty in mind and power is Visvakarman, Maker, Disposer, and most lofty Presence. Their offerings joy in rich juice where they value One, only One, beyond the Seven Ṛṣis. Father who made us, he who, as Disposer, knoweth all races and all things existing" ... "What was the germ primeval which the waters received where all the Gods were seen together? The waters, they received that germ primeval wherein the Gods were gathefed all together. It rested set upon the Unborn's navel, that One wherein abide all things existing. Ye will not find him who produced these creatures: another thing hath risen up among you." http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10082.htm there is no way he will turn out someone else at all. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 12:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC) Sankaracharya cannot be in Visvakarma caste because Viswakarma is a caste of recent origin. It was not in existence in the period of Sankara. Actually it is not a caste, it is a collection of castes - Thachans, Asaris, Kollans, Thattans etc. Earlier, these castes were collectively known as Kammalas in Kerala and Tamil Nadu. The people of these castes never enjoyed the Brahminical Status in the society. Visvakarma is fabricated caste. In the old texts, the term Visvakarma is not used as the name of a caste. It is used exactly in the same meaning of the word. Once again, I emphasis that the name Visvakarma is not used as the name of a Caste in the old Vedas, puranas, smiritis, and mahakavyas. Any claim based on the old texts are fake. Overall the Visvakarma Caste is a caste(collection of castes) of recent origin claiming Brahminical Status. It is also notable that a lot of educated people in the castes such as Kollans, Thattans are actually against the false and useless claim for Brahminical Status. --Prasanthnnamboothiri (talk) 17:24, 4 March 2014 (UTC) Prasanthnnamboothiri 1. please read "Ch. 67 -Original Cause of All Causes" as narrated by Potuluri Virabrahmendra Swami [5] to understand who the current Viswabrahmins are. 2. One name for Parabrahma is Visvakarma... so everyone born from Parabrahma should belong to Visvakarma Caste? You wrote "Viswakarma is a caste of recent origin"... from when since Visvakarma is of recent origin? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 09:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC) This page is for discussion of improvements to this article, not some general back-and-forth about Vishwakarmas. Please can the pair of you drop this now. - Sitush (talk) 12:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC) Mr. Ganesh J. Acharya, I dont know from which place you belongs to . Whatever I told is true about Kerala. Theoretically or poetically you can interpret things in different ways like Parabrahma is Visvakarma... so everyone born from Parabrahma should belong to Visvakarma Caste . But it is not necessary to admit your interpretations by others. According to history of Kerala, and in the sense the term Caste is used by our present society there were no caste called Visvakarma. I am using the term "Caste" in the real sense - exactly in the same sense that our official documents, Government system, reservation system, etc. are using. (Not in the sense of "all human being belongs to the same caste" or based on your interpretations. If you want to make it in such a way, you have to change the whole society first and redefine the term "Caste" first. Then make such arguments). In the actual sense, there were no caste called Visvakama. It is a caste fabricated in 19th or 20th century to accommodate a cluster of castes. For saying this, I refer my Society itself. Nothing else is needed. If you have some doubts, come in Kerala and check up with people. You and I know what is reality. Then why this waste exercise to place Visvakarma as Brahmins. And, as if you are saying all are Brahmins, then why are you getting worried about the caste of Sankaracharya. All belongs to the same caste ..na? And now to you.. Sitush, I know this page is for discussion of improvements to this article. But what to do.. these so called Vivakarmans have started some Wikikarma to put Sankaracharya in to a caste named Visvakarma. They are little bothered about the historical and sociological reliability and importance of such articles. Bhagvan unhem satbuddhi deim.--Prasanthnnamboothiri (talk) 15:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC) Just ignore the POV pushing. If this thread continues as it has been doing, I'll collapse the entire thing. It's not as if anyone is even providing decent sources to support their positions. Go discuss it somewhere off Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 15:19, 11 March 2014 (UTC) User:Prasanthnnamboothiri All in this universe including Birds, Insects, Reptiles and all type of Living Beings Including the Humans are Vishwakarmas by caste, but all are not Brahmins. Shankaracharya was born a Brahmin? Any which ways I suspect you are an impostor and not at a Nambudiri as well. I have many Namboothiri friends and I know how gracefully they speak. Let it be a Brahmin, or any other respected Varna, it hardly matters until everyone is duty bound to Lord as until then everyone is equal and part of the same Purusha. I guess the Andhra Historical Research Society, Rajahmundry which contained the above query did not so far conclude anything about Alfred Edward Roberts' important reference "Visvakarma and his descendants", and on the other hand editor Sitush here started writing provoking comments without credible inferences? Who's pushing the POV? Also why did LORD Indra incur brahma-hatya (the sinful reaction for killing a brahmana;) on killing Viśvarūpa who was son of Twastha? Manu, Maya, Twastha, Shilpi and Visvajna are brothers and the fore fathers of the current Vishwakarmas who are also called Kammalans in both Tamil Nadu, Kerala. If you are a real Nambudiri and not a fake ID, and are actually reading the Shastras why are these queries in front of you? Shankaracharya was born a brahmana? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 17:35, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2014

Regarding the birth of Adi Sankara,information is missing with respect to his community, family and parents. There is enough evidence based on works and folklore to establish that he was born to Namboodiri Brahmin community. His father's name is Shivaguru and mother Arya; which is a very common name among Namboodiri women. His father's house name is Kaipilly Mana and mother's house name Melpazhoor Mana. The landlord Pana Mana Namboodiries of Kalady owned the Manickamangalam Durga Bhagavathy temple where Adi Sankara's father served as priest. Both Pana Mana family and Melpazhoor family got minor curse from Adi Sankara since they ignored him becuase of his early initiation to ascetism without entering Grihasthashrama.

Also Melpazhoor Namboothiries burnt their own padippura (gate house building) which had many works of Adi Sankara leading to the curse. Also Sankaracharya had met Chera Kulasekhara Emperor Rajasekhara. Chera kingdom being Tamil is also debatable. Chera was given control of Kerala by Parashurama who brought Namboodiries from north India. It is historically incorrect to think that malayalam as a spoken language came to existance only after 800 AD.It is now classified as classical language (2013)

Dear Jackmcbarn, sir, I want you to consider my request to edit "Childhood" from "Shankara was born in Kaladi in present day central Kerala, the ancient Tamil kingdom of the Cheras" to "Shankara was born in Kaladi in present day central Kerala during the days of Keralite Chera kingdom, to a Namboodiri Brahmin couple. His father's name is Shivaguru and mother Arya; which is a very common name among Namboodiri women. His father's house name is Kaipilly Mana and mother's house name Melpazhoor Mana. The landlord Pana Mana Namboodiries of Kalady owned the Manickamangalam Durga Bhagavathy temple where Adi Sankara's father served as priest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Achutki (talk • contribs) 14:04, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Dear Arjayay,

Sir,

Some proofs

http://www.chinfo.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67

A research by the University of Wisconsin, Madison, USA (On adi sankara's mother's house)

http://www.chinfo.org/pdf.php?id=66

About Viswakarma Also, Viswakarma people are not Brahmins. They do not learn vedas. They do not follow any smarta tradition, dharma sootras, grihya and srouta traditio like Namboodiries. They are carpenter and sculptor castes. They may wear sacred thread in some occassion and learn the moola mantra of a God or Godess as they are idol makers , but that doesnt mean they are Brahmins. Namboodtiires follow Thyithireeya samhita, aranyaka and brahmnana of Krishna yajur veda, rig and sama vedas. Also follow the dharma , srouta , grihya traditions of Boudhayana, Vadhoolaka, Jaimini , Aswalayana and Koushitika. Namboodiries follow Vasishta seeksha in chanting yajur veda.None can be said about viswakarma Achutki (talk) 09:23, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Jackmcbarn (talk) 13:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Note: you will also need to cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 17:34, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2014

sir, I want you to consider my request to edit "Childhood" from "Shankara was born in Kaladi in present day central Kerala, the ancient Tamil kingdom of the Cheras" to "Shankara was born in Kaladi in present day central Kerala during the days of Keralite Chera kingdom, to a Namboodiri Brahmin couple.His father's house name is Kaipilly Mana/Illam and mother's house name Melpazhoor Mana/Illam."

Some proofs

http://www.chinfo.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67

A research by the University of Wisconsin, Madison, USA (On adi sankara's mother's house)

http://www.chinfo.org/pdf.php?id=66

His father's name is Shivaguru and mother Arya; which is a very common name among Namboodiri women.

Achutki (talk) 08:33, 12 March 2014 (UTC)