User talk:Hoary

People need Wikipedia. (Even if not as much as they need Facebook or something called "Glam Media". Ewww.)

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If I've posted something on your talk page, please reply there rather than here. Any new question or comment at the bottom of the page, please. If you post something here, I'll reply here.

Happy New Year Hoary!

	Happy New Year!
	Hello Hoary: Thanks for all of your contributions to improve the encyclopedia for Wikipedia's readers, and have a happy and enjoyable New Year! Cheers, BusterD (talk) 06:29, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year 2014}} to user talk pages with a friendly message.

Happy New Year Hoary!

	Happy New Year!
	Hello Hoary: Thanks for all of your contributions to improve the encyclopedia for Wikipedia's readers, and have a happy and enjoyable New Year! Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC) Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year 2014}} to user talk pages with a friendly message.

January 2014

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• <ref>"http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/dance/pop-ups/beyonce.html Dancing the dream: Beyoncé born 1981]", Smithsonian Institution.</ref> Exhibitions devoted to Klinko and Indrani include the 2009

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• Tower blocks and tomes dominate the Rencontres d'Arles]", ''[[The Guardian]]'', 11 July 2011]</ref>

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I've opened up a new front on the fashion industry in photography

I watched the Indrani and Klinko interview from Indrani's External Links, having never witnessed them before. It was full of the hot air pumped in to inflate it that we've seen pumped into her article: "I see myself as the James Bond of fashion photography". You said this was endemic of the fashion industry. I thought I'd see if that has polluted Wikipedia more widely, and have been going through Category:Fashion_photographers, deflating them where appropriate. -Lopifalko (talk) 12:53, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Regarding GLOBIS University's page in English

Hi Hoary,

First of all, thank you very much for spending your time editing the GLOBIS University page. I assume it must have taken a lot of effort to do so, and I really appreciate it. I will help you find necessary citations, and I'll be working with an Australian friend to make the article more neutral and fact-based. I have a few questions for you, if you could so kindly help me. 1) A lot of our references come from Japanese articles, since GLOBIS does not have many English articles and even if it did have articles, they're usually sponsored advertorials. Since the majority of the readers of the Wikipedia page can not read Japanese, what would be the best way to provide evidence for certain statements? Should we just keep Japanese references?

2) Regarding our name, GLOBIS University. Our official name is "GLOBIS" not "Globis", and this official name is used in our publications, financial statements, marketing communication. I'm well-aware that the use of capitals in corporate or school names, is usually reserved for names based on acronyms. (eg., INSEAD = Institut Européen d'Administration des Affaires; CEIBS = China Europe International Business School; IBM = International Business Machines) In GLOBIS' case however, the name is based on a portmanteau of 'Global' and 'Business', it is not an acronym.

It seems companies like ITO EN (ref.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ito_En) seem to be using capitals as well despite not being an acronym. Their Wikipedia page however seems quite inconsistent. Could you kindly shed light on capitalization rules in Wikipedia articles? Thanks! ..... added at 06:25, 10 January 2014‎ by Stichero

Thank you for asking; I've responded on your talk page. -- Hoary (talk) 12:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

PM Ability?

Hi Hoary!

I apologize if this has an obvious answer; I did some Googling before I came over here but I didn't find anything useful. Is there a way I could send you a private message through the site? You have been nothing but helpful, objective and rational and you seem trustworthy.

Thanks!--MaynardMuffin (talk) 18:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, in one or two places on this page you should find the link "Email this user". I'll read any mail that reaches me, but I may not reply to it. -- Hoary (talk) 07:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I just sent you an email! --MaynardMuffin (talk) 03:24, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

London

Congratulations on getting rid of the ubiquitous and usually redundant "located" in "located in". I thought I was the only editor who bothered about that. -- Alarics (talk) 11:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah, thank you! Well then, I think I'll do one more city before going to bed. (Watch my list of contributions.) ¶ Funny business, isn't it? I suspect that the more nervous Wikipedia editor has some memory of reading in some asinine guide to "style" that BE plus preposition phrase is indecorous or even wrong. There are a squillion "located"s located within WP, it seems. ¶ See also this discussion. -- Hoary (talk) 11:45, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Gina Gerson

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A tag has been placed on Gina Gerson requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. – S. Rich (talk) 06:05, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a fine point, technically. I don't think "significance" is clearly asserted. Deb (talk) 12:43, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

You (you being Hoary) added the original redirect from Gina Gerson to Gina Gershon, which has now returned. Unfortunately, having redirected, it says "Not to be confused with Gina Gerson", which lands the puzzled onlooker back at the same page. I'll remove the link, but I wonder: even if we agree the Russian starlet is not deserving of a WP entry, since we now know that at least one person uses the Gerson moniker, should it say something about "common misspelling" and not to be confused with at least one other person using the Gerson name? What do you think? Imaginatorium (talk) 15:28, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you, I suppose, for the nudge. A few days ago I was getting tired of Gers(h)on but then thought I could forget her. Seems I can't. I think the Gershon article is OK the way it is, but see your point about the wording of the hatnote. Currently, nothing intended for Gershon links to Gerson. Googling "gina gerson" hollywood -gershon brings (A) only the occasional typo for Gershon but (B) a lot about Gerson. (I infer from (B) a certain notability for Gerson, but I'll let others suggest her wikiresuscitation.) There's no hatnote that comes preloaded with a string about spelling; I could easily make my own hatnote, but this would be likely to bring questions. ("It's a 'common misspelling', you say? Really? A reliable source for that assertion, please.") The hell with it -- I'll delete the redirect, and people will just have to remember that Gershon has an "h" in her name. -- Hoary (talk) 12:29, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Azamgarh

Thanks for your work on "Notable people" at Azamgarh. There were 33 names when I started, which is now down to 10. Some editors seem to add names to these lists almost at random - I remember finding one writer listed in four or five places, but could only find a reason for including him in one of them. I think one of the common problems is that, like Azamgarh, many Indian place names are used for a Municipality, a Division and a District, and we have articles on all three - but readers/editors don't distinguish between them.
Thanks again (No template, as requested, because I'm not up to coding my own) - Arjayay (talk) 18:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for thanking me; actually I'd been about to thank you, for doing what you've mentioned doing. ¶ The history of that article will show that I've been sporadically trimming it for a long time. It's the one token local India article to which I pay attention. (I now no longer remember why I arrived at the article in the first place.) I'm considerably limited by not only the normal constraints (lack of time, energy, intelligence, etc) but also by a near-total ignorance of Indian matters and a total lack of any relevant language other than English. I like to think that I'm aware of and admit to my own ignorance. ¶ (You'll see an example here, where I admit that I've no idea what "Municipality" means in an Indian context. I'm reminded of the Japanese shi suffix, solemnly englished by both officialdom and Wikipedia as "city" but having a very different meaning. Of course even "native English uses of these words are strange: thanks to the last US presidential election but one, an amused world learned that Wasilla, Alaska [population circa 8000] was a "city".) ¶ I must say, this article and those related to it seem magnets for spam and boosterism. I suspect that a lot of the red links added to the list of notable people are added by nephews, grandchildren, etc of the names added; I suspect that a number of the blue links for actual worthies are added more or less deservedly by people in or from Azamgarh in an attempt to add stardust to their municipality/division/district. ¶ Anyway, I decided that every person listed should have a sourced connection to the "municipality" or "town", and of course for each person the first place I looked was his -- always his, never her -- own article. Almost none of these gave any evidence for the place of birth or any other connection with the town. Some articles were largely unsourced; some depended on print sources (nothing inherently wrong with that, but I couldn't check them); others obviously depended on junk sources. India-related articles seem to call for an influx of hundreds of disinterested editors who already understand the principles underlying WP:V and the rest. (All I can do is dream.) -- Hoary (talk) 00:13, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Frank Rocholl

Thanks for voting positive to keep my article about Henrik Purienne. You seem to be experienced in the field of the arts and photography? I´ve written another one about the other editor of Mirage Magazine, Frank Rocholl, that has a large background in typography and editorial design. I´ve added a publications listing and a few links that verifies the guys expertise. Hopefully it proofs his relevance besides Mirage Magazine. These titles are all standard literature for graphic designers, especially the Los Logos Series. Would be a great help if you have any suggestions to prevent deletion of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silverhaze01 (talk • contribs) 15:09, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, the article has a long way to go. Example:

Rocholl started his career as a designer in the early 1990s, when he established the design agency Landscape in Düsseldorf. At this time he was in charge of product launches for Philip Morris International. From 1996 to 1997 he worked as a creative director for the design agency Meiré und Meiré, in charge of implementing the corporate design of the Smart Car. In 1998 Rocholl established his own agency, Rocholl Projects, receiving commissions from Audi, Toyota, Epson and the German Lufthansa.

Why should the reader believe any of this? Disinterested sources, please. (And of course Rocholl himself is not a disinterested source.)

When you do cite a source, it looks ropey. Example:

Rocholl has received a number of awards for his work. His essays and interviews have appeared in more than 30 international publication media.

This is sourced to "Selected articles". Which article among them? An article by whom? Published where?

We click on the link, rocholl.cc/rocholl/frontend/media/essays_english.pdf. This seems to be a collection of tearsheets. Some are identifiable, some aren't. Are you expecting the reader to go through them, identify the medium for each, jot it down, and tot all of these up for a result that's higher than 30? If so, no. Instead you need to cite a reliable source that states that there've been over 30 international publication media.

Lots of work for you to do then. Get stuck in! -- Hoary (talk) 12:50, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I´ve changed the uncited paragraphs and kicked the advertising tonality out. Now its more facts based. Better like this? -- Silverhaze01 (talk •

In order for it to scrape through AfD, making it "more facts based" might work. But it might not. If you want to increase the chances that the article will survive AfD, back up every assertion within it to a reliable source. I note that the paragraph:

Rocholl started his career as a designer in the early 1990s, when he established the design agency Landscape in Düsseldorf. At this time he was in charge of product launches for Philip Morris International. From 1996 to 1997 he worked as a creative director for the design agency Meiré und Meiré, in charge of implementing the corporate design of the Smart Car. In 1998 Rocholl established his own agency, Rocholl Projects, receiving commissions from Audi, Toyota, Epson and the German Lufthansa.

still doesn't have a named source. A list at the end of six "Sources", collectively used somehow or other, isn't going to hack it (even if these are good sources, and I haven't looked). Additionally, what's this "Bibliography"? Has Rocholl contributed? If so, how? (See this for inspiration.) Is his work discussed? If so, cite the discussion where helpful. Or is he merely mentioned? If so, skip. -- Hoary (talk) 02:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the Steele-Perkins link as a sample for proper referencing. Hopefully my update makes things more transparent. -- Silverhaze01 (talk •

Comment request

Hi. Would you care to comment at this post? It is about the infobox for an album article and its "cover" and "released" field. Dan56 (talk) 09:24, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have no idea. I have no experience of writing about albums (other perhaps than tinkering with the odd sentence here or there), no experience with the relevant areas of MoS, and (though this probably doesn't matter, and indeed might conceivably be a plus) Bo Hansson is a new name to me. -- Hoary (talk) 09:31, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

dyk article in trouble

i don't know if u have the time or inclination, but there's Template:Did you know nominations/Kanako Momota which could do with an experienced editor's help. regards, -- Ohc ^¡digame! 00:22, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I've just gone through the article. But unfortunately I know nothing about this subject area, and have no experience of "DYK". -- Hoary (talk) 13:18, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. Unfortunately it's a crufty topic, and has a very crufty editor involved... -- Ohc ^¡digame! 07:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Funny, I must have had my second (very restrained) go at the article while you wrote what's immediately above. ¶ My problem with the Japanese song-and-dance industry is that what little I see/hear of it strikes me as asinine. If it were only for nine-year-olds, OK; but adults consume it too. ¶ It wasn't always so in Japan: The Peanuts, for example, did song-and-dance, and though some of what they did sounds awful and though in their other songs retro quaintness may just be kitsch with a "retro" patina, most of it's somehow enjoyable. By contrast, what I've heard of today's popsters just sounds like muzak for supermarket shopping. -- Hoary (talk) 07:16, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

• Yea, I don't know about the music, but just by scratching a little of the surface, it's clear for example that the whole AKB48 phenomenon is pure marketing to exploit the teenage consumer. Strange thing, like you said, is that the entire society seems to fall for it – all the manufactured babes, "teams", leaders, their "general elections", "graduation" and other assorted crap. They lap it up as if they really have a say and that the Japanese pop industry has suddenly become more democratic and meritocratic than Japan's corrupt governance system. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 07:25, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi! I have come in possession of a Japanese source that can be used in expanding the article a little bit. I've added some stuff I understood, but I'm sure there's more there that can be used. If you are willing to help a little bit, I can email it to you. (But keep in mind that it is not in text format.) Will you help? --Moscow Connection (talk) 09:00, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm really not the person to ask, as my background knowledge is near zero, my comprehension of Japanese is not so good, and my comprehension of pop-culture-magazine Japanese is worse. I was about to suggest asking at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan, but I see that you've already done so. Good, and I hope that you're successful. One tip: keep in mind that it is not in text format might sound somewhat scary -- people might think it's in Ichitaro or PostScript or TeX format. I'll wildly guess that instead it's just a scan in PDF or JPEG format; if so, it might be better to say so. -- Hoary (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

What is often not appreciated is that we benefit more from a lay view rather than a so-called expert view. That's one reason why I called on you. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 23:23, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I've just now had a third bash at it. -- Hoary (talk) 14:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to request you assistance again for the article, whose DYK nomination has just topped 100kB to become the Longest Ever DYK Nomination Discussion. I don't imagine you'd be interested in ploughing through all that dross making up the nom. But to summarise, one stumbling block for this article is the concerns an editor has raised about the quality of some sources, all of which are in Japanese, and how they have been rendered in the article. It would be an immense help if you could go through it by verifying the status of the cited sources (reliable not blog etc) and that there is no misrepresentation or copying (or close paraphrasing) of them. If you don't feel you can do it, I'll go back to WP:JTNB. Thanks in advance and regards, -- Ohc ^¡digame! 02:46, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

• Forget it. It seems like the others don't care to hold on to this one any more. Thanks anyway. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 06:04, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Lyndsey Turner

Look at the log page for Lyndsey Turner not Lyndsey Turner (director) LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:42, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Aha! I see now. ¶ A year ago I'd have thought of that without needing a polite prod from you. Maybe I've been away from WP:AfD for too long. Well, today I returned. -- Hoary (talk) 14:06, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

BLP smear campaign

An article about some teenager was apparently deleted. Now an editor appears to be making an effort to smear the kid. Don't know if he is notable or not, but what was added was not written well enough to tie him into the article, just looked like a smear.

Are you willing to deal withthis? Thanks --(AfadsBad (talk) 00:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC))

I'm willing to consider dealing with it.

I don't see any sign of a deleted article.

To me, the sentences you've deleted say more about Texan paranoia than about anything else. Possibly they additionally smear the kid. If they do, then it's imaginable that the editor had such an intention. But in editing Wikipedia, we start by "assuming good faith".

The claim comes with a superficially impressive pile of sources. I clicked on this one, not least because of the strange term "Katy man". It turns out to be about "the arrest of 19-year-old Patrick Joseph Hudson"; it doesn't mention the name used in the WP article. -- Hoary (talk) 01:18, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Lol.I assumed good faith on the sources. I don't see a deleted article, either, just a comment about one. I don't know anything about the topic, but the material was added without tying it into the article on terrorist threat and with LOL linked in the edit summary, and turns out all those sources don't even mention him? There did not appear to be any attempt to add information relevant to the article, the LOL, j/k ing in edit summary. I don't care. --(AfadsBad (talk) 01:44, 14 February 2014 (UTC))

No, I said that I looked at one of the sources and that this doesn't mention him. The explanation for this -- or even for a lack of mention of him in any of those sources, if indeed none mention him -- is pretty clear from the history of the article and has nothing to do with the editor with whom you are now squabbling.

As for not caring, you cared enough to make accusations about that other editor. That's an extraordinarily swift loss of interest. -- Hoary (talk) 02:32, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Page Vandalism

A use from IP 195.132.58.181 (Ile de France, where the subject of the article lives) just reverted all my work on the Rachel Marsden page. All of it. No citations, nothing, just reverted it all. Will you come look? CammieD (talk) 23:04, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

That's because you have set up a Single Purpose Account contrary to Wikipedia Community Rules, targeting this subject and only this subject aggressively over the past week. You have targeted the subject of the article under more than one account and IP. You have further posted what you claim to be the subject's private personal addresses. Both a Sockpuppet investigation and SPA investigation have been reported, citing your name. Further, a complaint has been filed to Wikipedia head office naming an identity believed to be yours. That is why your edits have been reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newfsecuritygirl (talk • contribs) 01:03, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I have never edited this person's wikipedia page before here nor have I ever posted about them in any other forum. However, a little Google time and your name came up as . . a sock account. A known sock account. Will provide detail in claim. Hoary, feel free to email me CammieD (talk) 01:34, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the invitation to email you, but I shan't be emailing either of you, and shan't reply to any email that I might receive. If either of you would just like to argue with the other, you're free do so on either or both of your own user talk pages (although I recommend that you don't). If on the other hand you'd like to do so in order to persuade others (e.g. me), Talk:Rachel Marsden is on my watchlist and that's the appropriate place for it. Arguments there should of course be polite, reasoned, and based on reliable sources. Anyway, no more discussion here about this article (let alone its subject). -- Hoary (talk) 01:51, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rachel_Marsden#Message_from_the_article_subject_.28Rachel_Marsden.29 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.58.181 (talk) 02:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	Thank you for the diligent work and careful assessment on Rachel Marsden. That's a helluva landmine. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:43, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, O alarmingly named Pen! With this pair of edits, I'm done thereabouts for now. -- Hoary (talk) 06:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

PS Three editors (so far) are involved here and I cannot see how (i) simple words can mean more or less the same to all three of them and (ii) all three can be sane. I'm willing to entertain the notion that just one of the three is insane and that this one person is me. Anyway, I don't see how a rational discussion is possible. Thank you again, Doom, but I think it's time to take the article off my watchlist. -- Hoary (talk) 13:36, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

What to do about dubious pages

Hi Hoary! Have a gander at this page: Mini Constitution of Ukraine. Look OKish, not terribly notable, but try to follow any of the citations, and they are almost all dead in some way or other. This one: http://www.golos.com.ua/Article.aspx?id=229406 does appear to be a page in Ukrainian about the subject, and it might well be a real newspaper. But the bottom line is the whole page looks rather like advertising. Should I: add templates demanding real references? (How do I find the right template?!) Propose deletion? (How again?) Or just leave it. There is worse... Imaginatorium (talk) 14:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Umm . . . how about first asking at WikiProject Ukraine and seeing if anyone's inspired to defend its significance, or, better, to demonstrate its significance? If nobody is, then one can think again. -- Hoary (talk) 14:29, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Jackie Chan awards page

I've been working on an awards page for Jackie Chan based on Arnold Schwarzenegger's separate awards page. It's not finished, but the bulk of it is on my sandbox page. If you have a moment, could you look at it and let me know if the tables look okay? I am adding citations, a few quotes and looking for a picture, but the tables are complete. I hope to submit it as a new page to help clean up the Jackie Chan bio page. Any feedback would be great CammieD (talk) 15:37, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Blast from the past

Hi Hoary. I haven't been a regular here for ages... but I saw this in my local rag today, and thought of you.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Education/Education-news/As-its-revealed-Cambridge-has-among-lowest-proportion-of-residents-without-qualifications-in-country-meet-Dr-Ashoka-Jahnavi-Prasad-Jr-the-man-with-19-degrees-and-PhDs-20140317064512.htm