Talk:Peterborough

Railway bridge

Nice photograph, but was it built by Lewis or (his older brother's namesake) Sir William and his son Joseph Cubitt? There seem to be conflicting sources and the plaque in the image has been altered. Chrisieboy (talk) 13:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

The plaque in my picture also says the bridge was built in 1850, which conflicts with the current text of the article. I can file a renaming request on Wikimedia Commons if necessary, since I put '1850' in the title of the photograph. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 14:02, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I was flipping channels last Sunday and came across an English Christian program called Songs of Praise and they pronounced the city's name /ˈpiːtəbrə/.
Is it necessary to have the American pronunciation for an English city? --121.214.165.3 (talk) 13:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

No, please remove it. Chrisieboy (talk) 15:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. --121.214.165.3 (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you have another look—I'm not an expert in this. Chrisieboy (talk) 18:21, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

You re-included the American pronunciation "PEE-ter-bu-roh". The general English pronunciations are either "PEE-tuh-buh-ruh" or "PEE-tuh-bruh". --124.180.153.98 (talk) 03:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was received pronunciation rather than American? Chrisieboy (talk) 13:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

No burrow /bʌrəʊ/ for borough is not RP. You perhaps think it is because you say /wɪndə/ and /barə/ and are used to correcting these to /wɪndəʊ/ and /barəʊ/.83.244.230.115 (talk) 02:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC) We (non-rhotic) English pronounce peter as /piːtə/ rather than Scotch, Irish and Yank /piːtər/. 83.244.230.115 (talk) 02:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Your right, /bʌroʊ/ is not RP and your reasoning wrt Chrisieboy's misunderstanding sounds good. And you're also right that non-rhotic English (or RP) pronounce "Peter" as /piːtə/, but Wikipedia's general transcription for this sound is /ɚ/ or /ər/, so it will be transcribed as /piːtɚ/. If you disagree with this please bring it up here. --143.238.232.51 (talk) 10:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

What is all this "we" business? Wikipedia is supposed to be a world encyclopedia for the world's people; not a little blimey encyclopedia for little blimey people. Is it necessary to have the English pronunciation for Paris, France? Frankly, if one removed everything that was not necessary, one would remove all of Wikipedia.Grandmotherfrompeoria (talk) 05:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Druids and Pagans???

I've been an established pagan for the better part of 9 years in Peterborough, and I'm not aware of any public temples dedicated to any of the pagan or neo-pagan faiths to the same extent as any of the other religions mentioned. Is this really an appropriate statement to put in this article, there is a small pagan population everywhere, there's nothing particularly special in Peterborough to warrant its mention —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.130.13 (talk) 14:45, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Well it's now almost a month since the addition was made (the only edit by that user account), and I then tagged it for citation. Given this is a featured article, i'd be perfectly happy to see it removed again. David Underdown (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed and done. Nev1 (talk) 15:57, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I am the person who has been putting the Pagan comment on the Peterborough page and I think that the point is relavent. Why should Christianity and other major religions get more of a mention than smaller religions? I think that if everyone put a small statement about their religion then the page would be a much more diverse community and that is good. Also I think that whoever keeps deleting the comment should think before they do because just because they believe something is wrong doesn't mean it is. They do not rule wikipedia. From the other comments of this section it seems that some people are unable to accept that there are other religions in the world other than christianity and major religions. Also since when did the number of temples dedictaed to a religion signify the importance of it? I think that this idea is kind of small minded and if everyone thought that then where would the world be? There would be no equality because religion would be based on capitalism. And the pagan faith doesn't really have a proper temple as any pagan would know that nature is our temple. In the nearby woods as well, there is an unusually large group of druids and pagans. That is why it deserves a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Curlywurly1 (talk • contribs) 22:48, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

If it's unusually large, then presuambly that will have been reported somewhere, and so long as taht source meets the criteria for being regarded as reliable in Wikipedia terms then that will be problem solve. However, everything in Wikipedia needs to be cited to an external source - that is the reason why the information has been deleted. We have no way of telling who you are and whether what you say is credible - you have to be able to back up your edits with evidence. This is particularly important as this article is a featured article. David Underdown (talk) 08:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The problem isn't that we don't think that paganism is a real religion, so put away the flaccid rhetoric about editors being small minded. The main problem is that it's unreferenced; please read WP:V as it explains how to provide proof and WP:RS explains what is considered reliable. While I have no reason to disbelieve that you are a pagan in Peterborough, I also have no reason to believe you. Hence, we require proof such as an article discussing paganism in Peterborough. Nev1 (talk) 19:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Recently there was a newspaper report in the Peterborough Evening Telegraph that is about wicca in peterborough. Surely this counts as proof enough to suggest that there is paganism in Peterborough? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.234.54 (talk) 13:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Sounds and looks fine to me - bear in mind that the preceding comments here are from early to mid July, some months ago now, when no-one was offering what you just have - and, all they're saying is, find something like that, and work on it! Why not have a go? If you're a Wikipedia newbie and want help, open your Talk page by clicking on the red link, type {{helpme}} (note the curly brackets) and then explain what you want help with - then sign what you wrote (with ~~~~ or use the signature button above the text entry box, looks like a squiggly f next to a blue pen) and someone will come along and give you a hand pretty shortly, usually within minutes, but easily the same day, if you check back. Or, if anyone else wants to have a go, the piece mentioned by 77.102.234.54 (I assume) is this one, report in the Peterborough Evening Telegraph published 21 October 2010. I'd do it, but right now I'm semi-retired. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 23:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I still don't think this merits inclusion. The article doesn't mention the number of Wiccans in Peterborough (in fact, despite being published in the Peterborough Evening Telegraph, it doesn't even mention the town). It's just a general interest article about Wicca, not about Wicca in Peterborough. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Just an observation - the subject of the Evening Telegraph article says that "covens do exist, but they are not easy to find. Some Wiccans join covens, but they don’t advertise them! You have to know the right people and find out by word of mouth. Others choose to practise alone.” I'd suggest that, as it's been published in what I would assume is a WP:RS for Peterborough, and as that Peterborough RS uses the word "local", then this is an acceptable thing to include - and, the "evidence" in the article for Wiccans in and around Peterborough is in a sense "negative evidence", as the subject of the article effectively explains, but that alone doesn't justify its exclusion here, IMHO. We've got an RS, why not include it? I don't see it as a big issue, just a sentence with a ref and a wikilink to Wicca. I'm not about to get worked up about it, but, say someone put in such a sentence, in an appropriate manner/style etc., I'd be minded to keep it. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 12:41, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

What would such a sentence say, though, that would be supported by the source? Cordless Larry (talk) 13:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, the material you quote above is not what the newspaper is saying, but a direct quote from the interviewee and I'm not sure that she counts as a reliable source. Moreover, it's still not clear that she's talking specifically about Peterborough. According to the article, she's from Tallington Lakes, not Peterborough. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

No offence, but this is all a bit hypothetical, don't you think, seeing as it hasn't been done yet, and I'm not proposing to do it myself? I know I suggested to someone else that they went ahead and did it, but I've already offered my view - and, if they asked for help, as I also suggested, the help might even agree with you, not me - why not wait and see? Who knows - this topic was started in July, and it's only about a week since the Evening Telegraph article was published, so by the time someone actually tries to do something with it there might even be more to work with. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 09:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I was just making the point that I don't think there's anything from that source that's worth mentioning in the article. I'd be pleasantly surprised if someone came up with something that was. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Disambiguation required

Several places, all important in their own right, share a name with this Peterborough. As such, Peterborough (disambiguation) should be moved here, and this article moved elsewhere. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 17:00, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

disagree - this "Peterborough" was the first "Peterborough" among the others currently listed on the dab page, which may well all be named after it, or at least were named later, by several hundred years. I'm sure there are plenty of parallels, e.g. London, London (disambiguation) is virtually identical, and the hatnote dab in the current article is adequate IMHO. Nortonius (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

London is clearly a different case. It is an alpha global city, known by every person around the planet. Age does not determine the primary topic (otherwise there would be no need to have disambiguation pages in the main title, we'd always link to the oldest thing or person). We don't link to the oldest John Smith, because many John Smith's are important. The disambiguation page is the primary topic. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 02:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I still disagree - I brought in Peterborough's age because I believe it is relevant, in this context - it may not be London, but it's certainly not "John Smith": in terms of English language place-name formation, this Peterborough has primacy. In any case, for primary topic status see also the page view figures: in September 2010, this Peterborough article had 20,807 views, followed by Peterborough, Ontario with 11,535, and all the others currently listed on the dab page - apart from those covering UK topics related to this Peterborough, which are clearly secondary - are way, way behind. This Peterborough article is by far the primary topic, IMHO. Nortonius (talk) 03:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. Per Nortonius and WP:PT. Chrisieboy (talk) 12:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. Peterborough clearly has primacy as a city. It is one of the earliest Wikipdia articles ever, is a featured articled, and does not need changing now. Any disambiguation should be limited to a hatnote to a disambig page. The merge suggestion is fatuous.--Kudpung (talk) 22:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment : This discussion is premature due an ongoing policy discussion that has not yet been resolved. .--Kudpung (talk) 00:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Nortonius said it. GyroMagician (talk) 08:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose and request a speedy rejection. As per the discussions at Talk:Plymouth, Talk:Sydenham, Talk:Cornwall, Talk:Cambridge, Talk:York, Talk:Lincoln (amongst others) and village pump which Floydian also created. Creating such proposals en masse is a misuse of the process, bringing more heat than light and counts as apparent lobbying. Fæ (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Kudpung. anti-world view. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 06:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose per Fae. --Joshua Issac (talk) 16:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Need for population section

I suggest that the article needs a population section, preferably as a sub-heading under the Demographics header. We can then avoid using a reference for the population in the introduction, and add some material on the historical population size. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:25, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

If doing this the following might be useful for more recent years and planned expansion:

• Estimates of the size of the Hampton development, and any further planned expansion to the south towards Norman's cross
• Peterborough development plan which is issued periodically by the city council - and last time I looked included very substantial growth plans (9000 dwelling?).
• The last published plans by EEDA
• Figures on transient population from the EU accession countries, admitted under the Schengen Agreement. (P'boro was a "dispersal centre" or whatever they called it).

HTH Rich Farmbrough, 18:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC).

That all sounds good (although the UK is not part of Schengen, and the EU migration is already well covered, plus the dispersal issue relates to asylum seekers, not EU migrants). Cordless Larry (talk) 18:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Done. Chrisieboy (talk) 20:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice work. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Town Hall to Charing Cross

What is notable about the distance between Peterborough Town hall to Charing Cross station? I've never seen this in any other wikipedia articel for a British town/city. Vexorg (talk) 21:00, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

It is a bit odd; I've seen articles with their distance from London, and this may be an idiosyncratic was of saying that. I don't think it would hurt to change it. Nev1 (talk) 21:09, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I think "Peterborough is X miles north of London" where "Peterborough" is taken to mean the Town Hall and "London" is taken to mean Charing Cross is perfectly adequate. I don't think we actually need to specify whereabouts in Peterborough and particularly not whereabouts in London since Charing Cross is the usual point taken to as the centre of London. Note Charing Cross doesn't mean Charing Cross Station, they're about 200 meters apart. Adambro (talk) 21:56, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree Adambro. Specifying how north Peterborough is from London is fine. The insistence on 'Town hall' to 'Charing Cross' is very idiosyncratic. Vexorg (talk) 03:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Then why didn't you change instead of removing it? Anyway, it is now done. Chrisieboy (talk) 14:37, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Main page?

Have you considered putting this excellent article forward to be Today's Featured Article? I couldn't see any dates that would be relevant to the city (suggestions?), but TFA is always looking out for non-specific date articles. It's been quite a long time since it was made an FA as well, which gains it 2 points at the nomination. If you need any help writing a main page blurb, do get in touch. Bob talk 15:32, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Just written a potential blurb. Bob talk 15:43, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

West front of Peterborough Cathedral.

Peterborough is a cathedral city and unitary authority area in the East of England, with an estimated population of circa . Situated 75 miles (121 km) north of London, the city stands athwart the River Nene. The local topography is flat and low-lying, and in some places lies below sea level. The area known as the Fens falls to the east of Peterborough. Human settlement in the area dates back to before the Bronze Age, as can be seen at the Flag Fen archaeological site to the east of the current city centre. This site also shows evidence of Roman occupation. The Anglo-Saxon period saw the establishment of a monastery, then known as Medeshamstede, which later became Peterborough Cathedral (pictured). The population grew rapidly following the arrival of the railways in the nineteenth century (the city is an important stop on the East Coast Main Line railway) and Peterborough became an industrial centre, particularly noted for its brick manufacture. Following the Second World War, growth was limited until designation as a New Town in the 1960s. In common with much of the United Kingdom, industrial employment has fallen, with new jobs tending to be in financial services and distribution. (more...)

Great news; looking forward to the 20th :-) Chrisieboy (talk) 11:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Brill, just be prepared for a lot of reverting on the day (and a bit of a cleanup the day after!). I'm happy to be around to help out, along with several other editors who keep an eye on main page entries during the Today's Featured Article appearance. Bob talk 23:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

American punctuation in an article about a British town?

This is an article in British English about a town in England and I can't help but notice that it only uses American punctuation. Don't get me wrong, I like U.S. punctuation and think that the ban on it should be lifted, but still, if we're spelling "labour" with a U and "privatised" with an S, we should punctuate to match in the case of indirect quotations, sentence fragments and expressions: "like this". Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:31, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance

In reply to user:Chrisieboy

I wondered where in the East of England isn't flat? As I'm not from the East of England my topical geography of the area is not great. According to East of England The area is mostly low-lying, and the highest place is the top of the Dunstable Downs at 243 m (797 ft). Which doesn't seem particularly high, but what do I know? I did not discuss previously as all that was left for me was a ambigous 'rv'. Bevo74 (talk) 21:31, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Haha, trust me, it's very flat. So flat that you can see the curvature of the Earth! Talking specifically about The Fens, they aren't just a little bit flat, i.e just little hills; there aren't even the hills, really. From the edge of a field near me, you can see Ely Cathedral, which is 25 miles away. Holme Fen, which is just down the road from Peterborough is 9ft below sea-level due to peat sinkage. Bob talk 23:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't really understand what the problem is, Peterborough is in East Anglia, East Anglia is in the East of England. The article mentions elsewhere that Peterborough is in the East of England. Chrisieboy (talk) 00:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Flagcruft

Per WP:MOSICON I removed some decorative flag icons but I see they have been replaced. Does anybody wish to attempt a rationale for this or shall we remove them again? --John (talk) 13:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

No, you removed the entire table and replaced it with bullet points. There's nothing in WP:MOSICON about that. What it does say though is: "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country..." Chrisieboy (talk) 17:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed I did. Tell me, why do you think it is important to have the twin towns placed in a table? And why do you think it is important to retain the flags? That's what I meant by a rationale. In your own time. --John (talk) 17:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

And incidentally in preparing your rationale, you may want to read this recent RfC which seems pretty conclusive to me. --John (talk) 17:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

(ec) How about you tell me your rationale for removing them and try to build a consensus first. The flags have been there since 2006 (through GAN, FAC and TFA) and nobody has had a problem with them until today. Chrisieboy (talk) 17:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

No, how we work here is that the onus is on someone wishing to retain or introduce material to justify it. I removed it, you restored it, and now we are discussing it. The RfC I linked to above shows a strong central consensus that such use of flags is distracting and overemphasises this material. I concur with this consensus. What is your rationale for wishing to retain it against consensus? Are you able to point to a local discussion, perhaps, where it was decided that these flags were essential to convey the information about Peterborough's twin towns? That still wouldn't outweigh a central consensus but it would at least give us something to talk about. --John (talk) 18:16, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It's clearer and gives greater context than a list. The discussion to which you refer is not binding. Chrisieboy (talk) 18:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

How does it give greater context? How is it clearer? --John (talk) 18:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It gives greater context by providing additional information and that information is more clearly conveyed by virtue of rows and columns. Okay? Chrisieboy (talk) 18:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

By greater context, you mean the sub-regions where the various twin towns are located, or the flags thereof, or both? Why is it important to give greater "context" and/or more supporting information on a Featured Article to the towns it is associated with overseas? Sorry to be a nuisance but I am looking (in vain so far) for a compelling reason that outweighs the dozen or so carefully considered rationales that went into the central consensus I showed you. I take it as you have not mentioned it that there was no discussion about introducing this table of flags? Thanks for your time. --John (talk) 18:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The tables are fairly common, particularly among FAs and GAs, but I must admit I'm struggling for a reason why. I can think of several articles I edit that use these tables and have done for years, but I haven't really questioned their use until John suggested it may breach MOS:ICON. I added one to Warwick last year (since removed) it was because it was done on articles such as this rather than because I thought it was particularly helpful. The flags and coats of arms aren't particularly important: when you see the word "Germany" you don't need a flag next to it to get the point across. Tables can be a useful way of presenting information, particularly statistics or something that can be sorted, but a short list of this sort doesn't really need one. Looking at how the removal of the table affected the City of Salford article, the only information that was in the table but not the bulleted list was "County / District / Region / State" which perhaps isn't that important anyway. It seems like a reasonable change to me. Nev1 (talk) 19:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you Nev, that makes sense. As regards the FAC argument above, I note that this was in 2007 when flag usage was much more common and less discussed, and standards were generally much lower, and that the promoted version had national flags, but not the grotesque table that I removed. This was added on 1 November 2010 by Chrisieboy, without any discussion let alone consensus that I can see. Correct me if I am wrong. --John (talk) 07:15, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Copyright issues

I've just been checking the links that are tagged as dead, and one http://www.peterborough.gov.uk/page-9547 redirects to http://www.peterborough.gov.uk/community_information/about_peterborough/historical_peterborough/civil_war_and_return_of_peace.aspx that reads:

"When Civil War broke out, Peterborough's community was divided as the citizens declared their loyalty to either the Royalists or the Parliamentarians. The city lay on the border of the Eastern Association of counties, which sided with Parliament, and the war reached Peterborough in 1643 when Parliamentary soldiers arrived in the city to attack Royalist strongholds at Stamford and Crowland. The Royalist forces were defeated within a few weeks, and they retired to Burghley House, where they were captured and sent to Cambridge."

The article reads:

"When civil war broke out, Peterborough was divided between supporters of King Charles I (known as Cavaliers) and supporters of the Long Parliament (known as Roundheads). The city lay on the border of the Eastern Association of counties which sided with Parliament, and the war reached Peterborough in 1643 when soldiers arrived in the city to attack Royalist strongholds at Stamford and Crowland. The Royalist forces were defeated within a few weeks and retreated to Burghley House, where they were captured and sent to Cambridge."

The source says "all information on this website is protected by Copyright". It doesn't look to me as though sufficient care has been taken with regard to copying material in this case. Editors working on the article should familiarise themselves with the Wikipedia:Copyright violations policy, to guard against re-use of copyrighted material and take any necessary remedial action. DrKiernan (talk) 19:50, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Obviously the edit history would have to be checked, but I have found from other articles that this is sometimes the other way around. Bob talk 22:14, 8 April 2012 (UTC)