Talk:Jews

For prior discussions of the infobox in the top right corner of the article, please visit Talk:Jews/infobox.

Infobox pictures

I want to make a change to the top right box with pictures of famous Jews, and would like to note it here for all to see, and anyone to make suggestions.

I am using a list of 100 people from adherents.com, which itself cites "The Jewish 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Jews of all Time" (Citadel Press Book, 1994), written by Michael Shapiro, a composer from New York.

I will also make sure to check the wikipedia page of the linked person to make sure there are no mistakes.

I will use 4 columns and 5 rows, resulting in 20 choices, focusing on the most famous names.

As I am unable to make these changes, I was hoping someone who was able to could help.

The list I wish to use (suggestions welcome): 1) Jesus of Nazareth 2) Albert Einstein 3) Sigmund Freud 4) Karl Marx 5) Baruch de Spinoza 6) Maimonides 7) Niels Bohr 8) Benjamin Disraeli 9) Franz Kafka 10) David Ben-Gurion 11) Lenny Bruce 12) Michael Dell 13) Noam Chomsky 14) Scarlett Johansson 15) Jonas Salk 16) Henry Kissinger 17) Emma Goldman 18) Harry Houdini 19) Bob Dylan 20) Steven Spielberg

Haimson (talk) 00:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Update. I made the edit. Haimson (talk) 00:58, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Good-faith edit reverted. Layout and content of the infobox montage have been established by consensus. (Previous discussions on this page have been archived.) A new consensus would be required to adopt any of your proposed changes. Hertz1888 (talk) 02:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi Hertz1888. I'm new here. How can we get a new consensus established? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haimson (talk • contribs) 15:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC) Haimson (talk) 16:28, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

It involves waiting patiently for responses and discussion to develop. I would not be optimistic about the outcome. Many of your choices were previously rejected, and the increased number of images as well. Hertz1888 (talk) 15:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The list is OK mate i support it but you should add Natalie Portman and Bar Refaeli as well they are more famous than some of these people on your list.. elmasmelih 13:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the current infobox is brilliant! It's not overcrowded, and the fact that it's 3 lines of 3 allows to save space on width yet use larger images. The selection is also brilliant. I love the fact Sholem Aleichem was used, the most important Yiddish writer, and Marc Chagall, the greatest Jewish painter. I also love the balance between Ashkenazi and Sephardi & Mizrahi Jews. 2 Sephardic Jews out of 9, which is very fair if you look at the percentage of Sephardi Jews out of world Jewry in general (which is around 20%). My opinion is don't change anything. One of the best collages I've seen on Wikipedia, and I don't exaggerate. I also love the fact the names are written right under the picture!

The list you suggested is to American-centered, doesn't consider the balance between Ashkenazis and Mizrahis, and using Jesus...? We don't have an authentic image of him, and to be honest, we don't even know if he existed. And how can you suggest a Jews list without Sholem Aleichem, Marc Chagall? And why do you need to cause controversy by suggesting Noam Chomsky and Emma Goldman? Why not suggest Trotsky as well? we are trying to avoid controversy, why light a bonfire? It's good to keep it "small" and simple, something everyone agrees on.

I understand you meant good, but people really need to try and change infoboxes just for the sake of it or so they could pet themselves on the back "that's mine infobox!". This is a really great infobox with a good selection, right balance and good style. Unless you have a really good idea that can really help it or improve it, what is the point suggesting something just for the sake of it? Each and everyone of us can create their own Jews infobox, but what is the point? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 22:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

The word Jew

Plenty of trolling
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Looking for rebuttals to learn: The word j e uu did not exist in english language until 300-400 years ago. Where did it come from and who created it? The word j e uu in the hebrew bible in the OT has been corrupted from Judahite or Judean it depends on the verse. In the NT the word j e uu is corrupted from Judean (maybe Judahite too). The word j e uu (again which should be Judean or Judahite) does not appear until 10 books into the hebrew bible long after Abraham Isaac Jacob and the head of all the 12 tribes and several generations after them are all dead. So why is this in the opening statement? בני ישראל, Standard: Bnai Yisraʾel; Tiberian: Bnai Yiśrāʾēl; ISO 259-3: Bnai Yiśraʾel, translated as: "Children of Israel" or "Sons of Israel" Get rid of that hebrew word and replace it with tribe of Judah (assuming you want to claim descent from him) because Israel was Jacob and he had 11 other sons other than Judah (because Judah is one of the words which has been corrupted to j e uu in the OT). Please show me the unbroken genealogy going back 4000 years to Judah to back up your claim or it is pure ipse dixit with no citation. And what is with this claim Aristotle believed that the Jews came from India, where he said that they were known as the Kalani.[37] Which then links to Josephus? Themainman69 (talk) 05:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews (excluding Yemenite Jews) all have a common genetic tie back to the pre Islamic east Mediterranean/west Asian world roughly 2,500 years ago (that's when AJs and SJs diverged from MJs). The word Jew is indeed not very old, but neither is gay for homosexuals, words change. P.S just because Aristotle said that doesn't mean it's true. Guy355 (talk) 08:02, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Thanks for that info where can i see the study? Yeh i know the link about Aristotle goes to Josephus page. For any 'jews' reading this do you claim descent only from Judah? Obv you would need Judahs DNA to confirm this or an unbroken genealogical record going back 4000 years both of which dont exist so maybe it should be emphasized it is part of judaism religions tradition (or religious myth if you will) to claim descent from such figure in the bible and is in no way 'provable'? Themainman69 (talk) 09:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC) The only people who actually claim descent from the 12 tribes tend to be religious people, and they tend to believe things that have no proof to back it up. All I said is that Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews share a common ancestry in the middle east, and that these share genetic similarities with other pre Islamic east Mediterraneans/west Asians such as Druze, Samaritans, Armenians and Cypriots. Ashkenazi Jews also share genetic similarities with Maltese and Sicilians, European population with recent ties to the near east. Here are the links: Guy355 (talk) 09:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Ok so you are ashkenazi ( i can show by logic where you came from in the bible but its not for this page i guess) do you claim descent from Jacob (Israel) or no? If no please change the hebrew word that says 'sons of Israel' as millions of people are misled by this claim. Themainman69 (talk) 10:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Yeah I'm ethnically Ashkenazi, doesn't mean that I'm an ultra religious Zionist who believes that all Jews descend from just 12 tribes, on the contrary, I'm an irreligious person, neutral to Zionism, who claims that the Israelites were in fact Canaanites who worshiped local Canaanite gods until the Babylonian captivity. I do know that Ashkenaz is believed to be the area of the Rhineland/Alsace region, although twas once thought to be Scythia and the northern coast of the black sea. Just because the bible says something however, it doesn't make it so. Rashi who was a Jewish rabbi in northern France during the 11th century, he was the first to call the Jews of the Rhineland/Alsace region Jews of Ashkenaz. Regardless, he never called them "natives", Jews of that region we're considered foreign by the state and heretics by the church, and by the time of the crusades were persecuted and forced to live in a Jewish quarter. Genetic studies show that Ashkenazi Jews share closest genetic similarities with Sephardi and north African Jews, and that they seem to share a common Middle eastern heritage, when it comes to non Jewish populations Ashkenazi Jews share closest genetic similarities with other pre Islamic east Mediterraneans/west Asians such as Cypriots, Druze, Armenians etc, with the only European populations close to them being Maltese and Sicilians who themselves have recent ties to the eastern Mediterranean. I showed you the sources, I hope you read them or will read them, for they just show the facts, if the facts would have shown that Ashkenazi Jews are genetically closest to Central Europeans such as Germans and Poles, it would have been obvious that Ashkenazi Jews don't have a recent connection to the Levant. Good examples for Jewish populations made up mainly of converts are Ethiopian Jews, Yemenite Jews, Indian Jews (from India) and Chinese Jews, all of them share closest genetic similarities with their host populations, although they do seem to have some ancient Levantine ancestry. P.S Do I claim descent from Jacob? No, considering the fact that the patriarchs were mythical characters most likely, their historicity is highly unlikely, like the historicity of Hercules, the patriarchs are part of Jewish mythology, however many Jews relate to this mythology (unfortunately some don't admit it's not true) and see themselves as the "children of Israel", so what if they see themselves this way? It's part of their tradition, just like the Romans believed themselves to be descended from Hercules, so did the Spartans. Guy355 (talk) 10:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Ok i am changing the lede statement from " originating from the Israelites" to something like " it is a part of judaic tradition to claim descent from the israelites'. You say your are irreligious and then you cite a rabbi, so your religion is judaism (phariseeism). How is it that jews know history so well? The talmud? You have kept the christians in the dark of pre BC history i guess because you dont want them to realise how real the bible really is and the whole Jesus was an imposter stuff. Themainman69 (talk) 11:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC) It's not just a claim, genetically speaking it seems highly likely. I am irreligious, it doesn't mean I can't cite people from the middle ages, back then almost everyone was religious. No I have no religion. It's not that Jews know history so well, it's that some Jews recorded things that were going on. We have kept the Christians in the dark? LOL, no... We don't want people to realise the bible is true history? Mate, the Jews wrote the old testament, most religious Jews still take it seriously, it were archaeologists and historians that realised there's no cutting evidence for many of the bible story. I'm not saying Jesus was a fraud, there's just no cutting evidence he rose from the dead, and the only records about him come from after his death. Guy355 (talk) 11:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC) The torah which your race is oh so fond of was written by Moses the levite and does not contain the word Judahite or Judean once (which has been corrupted to jew in english bibles) you need to get your definitions of israelites and judeans/Judahites correct. Im not doubting the middle eastern origin of 'jews' just the ipse dixit claim of descending from the bible israelites (which you claim are a myth and yet still want to claim descent from them based on your re edit of my edit LOL). Themainman69 (talk) 11:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC) You can't change sourced information, the Middle eastern heritage of most Jews is backed up by evidence, genetic, archaeological, historical etc. In fact, the lack of records from external biblical sources for many stories in the bible i.e the Exodus, the patriarchs etc makes these stories unlikely to be true. And no, I'll repeat, just because I source a Jewish rabbi doesn't mean I'm religiously Jewish, most people back then were religious, and that rabbi didn't claim anything, he just called those Jews the Jews of Ashkenaz. ... The Torah is made up of the first 5 books of the bible or the first 5 books of the old Testament, without that you have no Judaism or Christianity. Jews aren't a race, we're a nation, an ethnoreligious group, a religion and an ethnicity, but not a race, some are made up of converts, some from the ancient Israelites. The Torah wasn't written by Moses, there's no evidence Moses ever existed, it was put together during the Babylonian captivity in order to establish Monotheism and the worship of Yahweh alone. Listen, the bible doesn't have to be true, people who wrote it had an agenda, it's archaeology , genetics etc that makes the Middle eastern origin of most Jews plausible. Some things that are written in the bible are true, some aren't, the Israelites did exist, they were a Canaanite Polytheistic people until the Babylonian exile when they became Monotheistic, when they became Jews. the fact that most Jews share a common ancestry in the Middle east around 2,500 years ago makes the Israelite origin plausible, however the stories of the Exodus are unlikely, instead of coming from Egypt, the Israelites were a native Canaanite people. Guy355 (talk) 11:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Just because the Romans claimed descent from a mythical character, doesn't mean the Romans didn't exist. The same case for Jews, Greeks, Japanese etc. Guy355 (talk) 11:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC) It's like asking the Greeks to claim they have the same DNA of Hercules, Jacob was a mythical character, part of Israelite mythology, stop mixing biblical Israelites with historical Israelites. Guy355 (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Are you going to ask the Greeks to prove their descent of the ancient Greeks? What about asking the Chinese to prove their link to the ancient Chinese? In all these cases genetic studies show these populations came from the region of their ancient ancestors. Guy355 (talk) 11:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC) And there is a link between modern Jews and the Israelites, Hebrew is a Canaanite language, Judaism still has some remains from the Israelite Mosaic religion. Guy355 (talk) 11:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC) I see you have no regard for truth nor wikipedias verifiability standard. I will report you next re edit. I have a duty as a wiki editor to keep religious nuts like you from claiming your religious myths/traditions as historical facts when there is 0 verifiable proof for them. Themainman69 (talk) 11:45, 25 July 2014 (UTC) I'M NOT BLOODY RELIGIOUS!!!!!!! Please separate the biblical Israelites from the historical ones! I'll add sources. Guy355 (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Sir/Ma'am it seems like you don't have any regards for archaeology and genetics. Guy355 (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC) FYI I already reported you for POV pushing and removal of sourced information. Guy355 (talk) 11:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC) There is no mention of the israelites in the 2 literatures you cited and the other wiki page with the section on israelites has a link for a citation which is back to the same wiki page. There is no citations for your ipse dixit fallacy claim of descent from Jacob. Editors we have a judaism religious nut here claiming his religions myths as facts and violating wikis verifiability and citation rules. Why is this so important to your religion? I am changing it back. Themainman69 (talk) 11:57, 25 July 2014 (UTC) But descending from Jacob has nothing to do with the Israelites, Jacob was a mythical character. I'm not religious, I'm looking at the facts. Guy355 (talk) 11:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC) I placed sources for genetic studies showing the common Middle eastern ancestry of Jews, and the Wikipedia link is related to the HISTORICAL Israelites. Guy355 (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2014 (UTC) I told you, I'm not religious, however genetic, archaeological and linguistic evidence suggests a descent from the Israelites, and NOT FROM THE PATRIARCHS, who are mythical characters created by the Israelites. Guy355 (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2014 (UTC) The fact that most Jews share genetic ties, that most Jewish Cohens as well as some Palestinians have genetic ties, suggests a pre Islamic east Mediterranean/west Asian origin, which is probably Israelite considering the historical, linguistic and cultural connection to them. Guy355 (talk) 12:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC) The 3 literature studies make no mention of the israelites (no one cares about the middle east descent its your ipse dixit religious myth about Jacob that violates wikis rules) and the wiki link citation goes back to the wiki page (original research verifiability citation you are violating all 3). LOL you cant have ISRAEL-ites (defined by descending from Jacob renamed Israel) with out JACOB.Themainman69 (talk) 12:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC) YES YOU CAN, because the mention of Israel existed BEFORE Jacob was ever mentioned as a mythical character. Guy355 (talk) 12:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC) The name Israel first appears c. 1209 BCE, in an inscription of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah. The inscription is very brief and says simply: "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not". Jacob was probably created around the Iron age, long afterwards. Guy355 (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC) The Israelites CAME from the Middle east, they came from there, the studies aren't about bloody literature they're about genetics, and they talk about the common ties most Jews share and they're orientation to the near east, and WHO DID THEY SHARE TIES WITH FROM THAT REGION? The Israelites. Just because some things written about the Israelites are mythical, doesn't bloody well mean it's all mythical. Guy355 (talk) 12:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC) How many times am I supposed to tell you I'm not religious? These studies talk about connections to the Middle east, and the population that most Jews claim descent from are the Israelites, who came from the near east, this isn't about religion. Guy355 (talk) 12:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC) So from that one inscription you draw the religious interpretation that a group of people whom your religion calls the 'historical israelites' existed and you descended from them? Seperate your religious myth from VERIFIABILITY. There is not ONE mention of the israelites in those 3 literatures you cited. This isnt hard FIND A PRIMARY SOURCE AND CITE IT. Themainman69 (talk) 12:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Are you blind and deaf? Can't you see I say I'm irreligious? I took the sources that unfortunately aren't available on the internet, they're in books, AND they're on the page of historical Israelites, that's why I cited that. Guy355 (talk) 12:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Oh, what luck, I found the link. Guy355 (talk) 12:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Here, you wanted a source? Here it is. Guy355 (talk) 12:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC) No one cares about studies about the middle east, the other link is to the historical israelite page and one link is back to the same wiki page. Its obvious you go to lot of effort for your religious myth. Cite the study showing descent from the historical israelites then oh wait you would need their DNA which doesnt exist. Get over your religion before you fly a plane into a building for it. What page of that book? Themainman69 (talk) 12:23, 25 July 2014 (UTC) That's the source, Jesus Christ... Are you a troll? I told you I'm not religious! And that's the source! Unfortunately Israelite DNA hasn't been sampled as of yet. Guy355 (talk) 12:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Why don't you go to the page of Greeks and delete their claim to the ancient Greeks because ancient Greeks haven't been sampled? The only reason you bother this page is because of the bloody bible. Guy355 (talk) 12:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC) The Israelites themselves weren't a myth, some of the stories in the bible aren't true. I gave you a source, but it's still not enough for you. Guy355 (talk) 12:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Listen, I have an idea, how about I change it to "who claim descent from the Israelites"? Good enough? Guy355 (talk) 12:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC) LOL SOUNDS GOOD TO ME !!! Themainman69 (talk) 12:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC) There, I changed it. Now, I think there's been a misunderstanding, I'M NOT AND I REPEAT, AM NOT A RELIGIOUS FANATIC, I'm not religious at all, the fact that I'm ethnically Jewish doesn't mean I'm religious, Jews are an ethnoreligious group, they're a religion but also an ethnicity. Much of what's written in the bible has no proof to back it up. Most Jews genetically have ties to the middle east, thus it makes it likely that there's a connection to the Israelites, but I suppose that that still doesn't make it certain. Just like the claim of the Greeks to descend from the ancient Greeks huh? Anyways I just want to make it clear that there's non biblical evidence, archaeological and historical to the historicity of the Israelites (although not entirely to what the bible claims). But I suppose you had an issue that there's no genetic evidence for that? Well until the remains of an Israelite are sampled we won't know for certain. Anyways, are you a Christian? an Atheist? Or what? I for example am an Atheist and NOT A RELIGIOUS FANATIC. Guy355 (talk) 12:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The expression of a pov regarding "trolling" in a title to close a tread is, in my pov, trolling. Please either substantiate defamatory claims, such as in that summary, or withdraw them Gregkaye (talk) 08:32, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Jews from a different view.

More trolling
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
http://postimg.org/image/9ft4643sn/ - Taken from The History of Czech Lands. http://postimg.org/image/iiik3pvzx/ - The most famous Jew in all history had a surname Jesus of Nazarath. http://postimg.org/image/dnkd8or8p/ Jews are from Palestine and Isreal did'nt exist before 1948. http://postimg.org/image/dwf52watd/ At least one Jew had 3 surnames in the 16th century. (Note not German). http://postimg.org/image/kskoyx3oz/ Just proof of the years and who was King/ Emperor at these times. http://postimg.org/image/4w0inanjh/ - Taken from Military Technology MILTECH 1/1988. Poof of Us military and financial aid going back a long way. (1) http://postimg.org/image/9hjrt6i7t/ -Taken from Military Technology MILTECH 1/1988. Poof of Us military and financial aid going back a long way (2) http://postimg.org/image/5yjxx4111/ -Taken from Military Technology MILTECH 1/1988. Poof of Us military and financial aid going back a long way (3) http://postimg.org/image/gn6gyi5kd/ -Taken from Military Technology MILTECH 1/1988. Poof of Us military and financial aid going back a long way (4) http://postimg.org/image/nde7zzfhr/ - Taken from Military Technology MILTECH 1/1988. Poof of Us military and financial aid going back a long way (5) I am no expert but would it not be fair to say that the fair Jews are from Europe and the the forgive me the darker ones from Palestine. If you went on a website like Ancestory.com and checked why so many Jews have German or German like names. Also many Jews did change there names in Prussian times too. But this is my opinion and you have a right to see many views from everyone. Name withheld sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.12.215 (talk) 05:21, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

The expression of a pov regarding "trolling" in a title to close a tread is, in my pov, trolling. Please either substantiate defamatory claims, such as in that summary, or withdraw them Gregkaye (talk) 08:32, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

For their religion, law and culture, see Judaism.

This article is about the Jewish people. For their religion, law and culture, see Judaism.

This seems vaguely to imply that modern-day Jews are, definitionally, adherents of Judaism, which is not neutral or correct. Shouldn't the word "historical" be in there, or am I missing something? TiC ^(talk) 00:15, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

You got a point. I'm ethnically Ashkenazi Jewish but I never adhered to Judaism, I eat pork while eating chocolate, I celebrate Christmas and don't keep the Sabbath, the last time I went to a Synagogue was when I was 13, I was raised Irreligious and Irreligious I am, and I'm certainly not the only one. Guy355 (talk) 05:05, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Although there is indeed such implication, I would argue that most Jews do agree that Judaism is both their religious and cultural heritage. So I see nothing wrong with that implication. It makes eminent sense to connect Judaism - in the broad sense of religion and culture both, with Jews. Guy355, may I assume that even while being irreligious, you would culturally/ethnically call yourself a Jew? If so, than my point is made. Debresser (talk) 09:59, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I do see myself as ethnically Jewish, it's not something one can change, if Judaism was only a religion, like Christianity or Islam, then I wouldn't see myself as Jewish, but since Jews are also an ethnicity, then ethnically speaking I'm Jewish, whether I like it or not. Guy355 (talk) 10:48, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

A hat note of some type may be appropriate as the above exchange illustrates general confusion on the issue. For example: If a Christian woman converts to Judasim are her children ethnically/culturally Jewish by birth? Her grandchildren? What if her children then decide to become Muslim, are their children still Jewish? Their grandchildren? When does it stop/start? The answers could only come from clergy and have nothing to do with genetic science. In an encyclopaedia it should be clear what an article is about: a religious cultural history or genetics. The topics are indeed wildly different. Also, on above exchange, please note WP:Forum Lexlex (talk) 06:11, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, since Jews are an ethnicity and a religion, a person can be only religiously Jewish, or only ethnically Jewish, or both. If a person converts to Judaism, and is only religiously Jewish, then his children convert to Islam, then I suppose the children aren't Jewish, because they aren't Jewish ethnically (they don't belong to any of the Jewish ethnic divisions) or religiously speaking. Guy355 (talk) 09:26, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

You have described a term which has two distinct meanings which seems to support a disambiguation page and two separate articles: one for the religious aspects and one for genetic aspects. Perhaps we can some some consensus or feedback from others? Lexlex (talk) 10:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe, but let's not forget that genetically speaking Jews aren't exactly a tight knit group, there are plenty of ethnic divisions, but the ethnic divisions (especially Ashkenazi Jews) tend to plot together. And Ashkenazi and Sephardi (especially Turkish and Greek Sephardi) Jews share a high percentage of IBD (identity by descent), and Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews seem to share a common ancestry going back to the middle east 2,500 years ago, twas around that time when the Ashkenazis/Sephardis diverged from the Mizrahis. Of course, there are the smaller ethnic divisions that descend largely from converts, Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews), Yemenite Jews, Bene Israel (Indian Jews from India) and the Kaifeng Jews (Chinese Jews), these share greater similarities with and plot next to their former host populations. Guy355 (talk) 10:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

This article[1] may lend some useful perspective, along with Ethnoreligious group. Hertz1888 (talk) 10:27, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

If consensus were to agree, what should the two articles be called: Judaism (Religion) and Judaism (Ethnicity)? These names seem pretty straightforward and would allow editors the freedom to expand on both aspects. Lexlex (talk) 12:02, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I have no problem with that, but Judaism isn't an ethnicity, Jews are, so I'd say Jews (religion) and Jews (ethnicity). Guy355 (talk) 13:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

The traditional view (and it's a social view, made by rabbis many centuries ago), is that someone is either born to Jewish parent/s or converts and becomes Jewish. Just like the article says, nothing too complicated. And Peoplehood concept by the way doesn't have to be about genetics and probably usually isn't. Is there a specific chromosome that makes someone Hungarian (for example}? of course not. Some Wiki users really need to stop with their "genetic nationalism". Yuvn86 (talk) 16:05, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Did I see a rename proposal? Specifics, please. A priori I am against changing any of the related article names. Debresser (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I really don't think it's appropriate to split the article; the concept of Jewishness inherently conflates religion, nationality, and ethnicity, you have to take these things as you find them rather than imposing your own standards.

I actually was just suggesting to add one word, "historical," to the dab note; I don't know why it prompted all the above... something. TiC ^(talk) 07:21, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, but that means that Irreligion has to be added, it's without a doubt that many if not most Jews worldwide are Irreligious, well, maybe not most, but many, and to just say "Judaism" is beyond dishonest, it's downright inaccurate. Guy355 (talk) 07:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree it's currently very unclear. If the article isn't split, how should it be classified or noted when someone is speaking about: a) cultural aspects; b) genetic aspects; c) religious aspects? Mixing it all together in one article without any clear delineation of which aspect is being discussed does a disservice to the reader. Religion is not science and vice versa. If a reader wanted to learn more about a genetic claim he currently has to guess which one of many similarly named articles has the information and dig through intermixed cultural and religious claims attempting to define peoplehood. All of it is important, but the reader should know if it's scientific fact or a religious claim. Lexlex (talk) 07:54, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I fail to see the point for splitting this article. Jews are one nation, religious or not. Debresser (talk) 16:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the point either. The article is about the Jews, with all their hetrogeneity. If there are ambiguities in the article, we can simply say so – with proper sourcing as necessary. Let's move on. Hertz1888 (talk) 17:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

So let me repeat: how should it be classified or noted when someone is speaking about: a) cultural aspects; b) genetic aspects; c) religious aspects? Mixing it all together in one article without any clear delineation of which aspect is being discussed does a disservice to the reader. It's really unclear. How can this be made simpler? Lexlex (talk) 13:21, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I think that is important to note that Ethnicity encompasses far more than ancestry and genetics. It also includes religion, language, cultural practices, diet, education, and social circles. Personally, I consider myself ethnically Jewish though my ancestry isn't. I grew up in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, had Jewish childhood friends, dated Jewish women, later married a genetically Jewish woman, fathered Jewish sons, and was formally converted to Judaism nearly 20 years ago by a Conservative bet din. There are many Hebrew and Yiddish words in my vocabulary, I have been president of my synagogue, I eat only kosher meat, I have visited Israel twice, and I collect Judaica. Though half Scandinavian by ancestry, I have no special interest in Scandinavian ethnicity. I accept Guy355 as ethnically Jewish as well, despite that pork thing. Jewish ethnicity is complex but real and much more than ancestry. I oppose splitting this article, and the questions Lexlex raises should be addressed by more specific wording and phrasing. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Cullen328 That's fine, I reckon you're more Jewish than me, despite genetic studies suggesting I'm 95.1% Ashkenazi, I personally only see myself as Ashkenazi Jewish by ethnicity because of ancestry and genetics, if I had to describe myself culturally I'd describe myself as Western/Anglo Saxon/Aussie, linguistically I'd describe myself as an English speaking Aussie because English is my native language and I come from an English speaking country. To be frank (I do hope I don't offend anybody) if I didn't belong to the Ashkenazi Jewish ethnic division or indeed, any Jewish ethnic division by ancestry and genetics, I wouldn't be Jewish at all, nothing really ties me to it. Guy355 (talk) 06:36, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't compare degrees of Jewishness, Guy355. We are just different kinds of Jews. That's completely OK with me. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Alright. Guy355 (talk) 05:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Number of Jews in Hungary

The World Jewish Congress estimates there are 35,000–120,000 Jews in Hungary. The demographer Sergio DellaPergola ("widely acknowledged as the leading authority in demography and statistics related to the Jewish population all over the world") estimates 48,600. I believe DellaPergola is more accurate. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:26, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: Change David Ben Gurion with Golda Meir

Hi,

First of all, I must say the current collage is brilliant. It's not overcrowded, and the fact that it's 3 lines of 3 allows to save space on width yet use larger images. The selection is also brilliant. I love the fact Sholem Aleichem was used, the most important Yiddish writer, and Marc Chagall, the greatest Jewish painter. I also love the balance between Ashkenazi and Sephardi & Mizrahi Jews. 2 Sephardic Jews out of 9, which is very fair if you look at the percentage of Sephardi Jews out of world Jewry in general (which is around 20%). My opinion is don't change anything. One of the best collages I've seen on Wikipedia.

I have one suggestion which is: Insert Golda Meir instead of David Ben Gurion. Reason: Both are Prime Ministers of Israel and represent the same thing. However, Golda Meir is a woman, which will help the male/female balance.

If the consensus will approve it, then we can do what was done on the Russian Jews and Ukrainian Jews pages, which is put a woman in the center of every line and make it look better in terms of esthetics. That is, there will be 3 lines of 3, and a woman in the middle of every line.

If you approve it, it will look like that:

This article is about the Jewish people. For their religion, law and culture, see Judaism.

"Jew" redirects here. For other uses, see Jew (disambiguation).

{{Infobox ethnic group |group = Jews |native_name = Hebrew: יהודים ([Yehudim] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help))

|image =

Maimonides	Emmy Noether	Baruch Spinoza
Sholem Aleichem	Golda Meir	Franz Kafka
Albert Einstein	Natalie Portman	Marc Chagall

I know what a strong consensus this collage received when it was made, and I am fully aware I can't do any changes without getting this change approved here by a consensus. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 22:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)