Talk:Headbanger (Babymetal song)

Spelling and suggested Move

I cannot find any justification for the current spelling of the article (Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!!). It's not any of the three online sources. The English spelling placed on their Official Discography, is listed in the "External links" is "Head Bangya!! " I suggest the article be moved to that page, or to "Headbanger!!" - Thoughts? - Boneyard90 (talk) 18:49, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I used this as a source, the music video on the Toy's Factory channel: [1]. But yes, it looks like now they seem to use "Head Bangya!!". The music video on the new Babymetal channel is titled "Hed Bangya!!" too: [2]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

1. http://www.babymetal.jp/discography/:
   • "MEGITSUNE　[w/ DVD, Limited Edition" says "Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!! (Live Clip 2012.10.6「I、D、Z?LEGEND “I”」at Shibuya O-EAST)"
   • "IJIME.DAME.ZETTAI [w/ DVD, Limited EDT." says "HEADBANGEEEEERRRRR!!!!!"
   • "Head Bangya!!" on many other occasions.
2. Babymetal - BABYMETAL on iTunes says "Head Bangya!!"

-Moscow Connection (talk) 19:09, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

FYI: I don't have a reliable enough reference to add this to the article, but as I understand it, the misspelling is actually a pun. バンギャ (bangya) in J-Rock context means “band girl” which is more or less equivalent to the American “groupie”. The pun is then something like “headbangirl” or “headbandie”. That might be the reason it's now rendered with a space in English. Lalo Martins (talk) 07:50, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

What you say doesn't make any sense.
The only thing that may make sense is that the "gya" part at the end of the word could be a pun for "girl". Like, "Headbanger girl" or "Girl headbanger". --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:37, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you fluent in recent Japanese slang? I heard バンギャ is a slang term used in J-Rock circles. It's hearsay, so I didn't add it to the article. But there's no point arguing whether it “makes sense”; slang seldom does, and Japanese slang even less than average. It just happens. Now if you are a connoisseur of J-Rock slang and you can say for sure there's no slang, that's a different argument. It's a pointless argument either way, though; I'm just repeating the explanation I've been given, for context, not proposing it's added to the article or anything. Lalo Martins (talk) 19:07, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, a google for “バンギャ slang” produces a few useful results, the most readable of which is http://askabangya.tumblr.com/post/63308940463/so-i-stumbled-upon-this-blog-post-on-livejournal Lalo Martins (talk) 19:15, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Suggested Movement

@GUROMETAL:@Purplewowies:

Ok, so @Moscow Connection:, here you disagreed with the movement of the article, yet your previous comment made here says otherwise, you even prove the fact that the title is in fact "Head Bangya!!" by providing reliable sources. Can you explain why you have changed your mind and not just because WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT? Anyways if we are moving the discussion to here I think the voting should start again here in more detail.

Move per suggestion by GUROMETAL with reasons provided by Moscow Connection above and GUROMETAL on the Babymetal article talk page. SilentDan (talk) 23:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Move: (copied from Babymetal talk page): To be fair, the title has gone under evolution even in official media. It was originally titled in English with the Headbangeeerrr!! title and changed to being Head Bangya!! (which is, IMO, slightly less correct of a translation but pretty much a straight transliteration of the kana, albeit with spaces added). I think as that's the official title, even if it used to be the other name and even if it's incorrect English, it should be used as it's what's used in the official translation, a bit like how All your base are belong to us isn't what's written from a correct translation but the real translation (yes, all your base is a meme, but it's the best I could come up with this late). It's possible there are a few sources (even perhaps archived forms of the official site or old news items on the site) with the original translation that could be used for a blurb about the name changing, but as the official title has changed (unless other policies like WP:COMMONNAME or something come into play), I believe so, too, should the article's. (end copy) My rationale hasn't really changed, it's still "move but make sure the translation change is mentioned/explained in the article", so I figured I'd just copy my vote and comment over. - Purplewowies (talk) 01:08, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. IIO's suggestion created as a redirect. Jenks24 (talk) 13:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

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Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!! → Head Bangya!! – This is how the title is rendered on the official discography, on the band's official YouTube channel, on iTunes, and LastFM. Seems pretty clear-cut to me. DAJF (talk) 09:19, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

• Weak Do not move to "Head Bangya!!"

The article is about the single, not about the song.

1. On iTunes, the single is titled "Headbangya!!" -- [3].
2. [4] -- On the official site, the title of the single is not romanized, but:
   1. The track listing for "Megitsune" says "Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!!".
   2. The track listing for "Ijime, Dame, Zettai" says "HEADBANGEEEEERRRRR!!!!!"
   3. Only the track listing for the album says "Head Bangya!!". (It seems to be how they prefer to call it lately.)
3. Earlier (original) YouTube upload (by the record label) calls the song "Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!!" -- [5].

• How about "Headbangya!!"?
  I don't like "Head Bangya!!:" cause there are no spaces both in the original Japanese title and in the English word, so it looks a bit weird to me.
  (But yes, it seems that they prefer to spell it like "Head Bangya!!" lately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 09:41, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
• Move per suggestion by GUROMETAL with reasons provided by Moscow Connection above and GUROMETAL on the Babymetal article talk page. (copied comment from Talk:Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!!#Suggested Movement, my opinion is still the same.) SilentDan (talk) 09:48, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
• Move to Headbanger (Babymetal song) per WP:UE and WP:SONGDAB, ヘドバンギャー (Headbanger) is the standard Japanese spelling of the English word which was already in use prior to this 2012 single. If Japanese blog sources are all over the place then use the English spelling of what is an English word. Headbanger (song) redirects to dab listing 3 other "Headbanger" songs. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:43, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

  No... Please change your vote cause you are incorrect. "Headbanger" would be "ヘッドバンガー" in Japanese. Try Google Translate. The word in the title is intentionally written/pronounced in a "cute" way. "ヘドバンギャー!!" is "Headbangya!!". And we have already had similar discussions about exclamation marks and we left them in and I thought we decided to always leave them in... --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:47, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

  @In ictu oculi: Echoing Moscow Connection's comments above, could you provide an example or source showing "ヘドバンギャー" used as the Japanese form of the English "headbanger" outside the context of this band's single? I haven't had much luck with online dictionaries, as they tend to explain the English term "headbanger" rather than render it in katakana, but the Japanese Wikipedia articles ja:MTV Headbangers Ball and ja:ジョー・ルダック show it rendered as "ヘッドバンガー", which was also my understanding of how it was normally written in Japanese. I think we should follow what the official sources say rather than Japanese blogs. --DAJF (talk) 12:26, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

You're correct, it should normally be ヘッド heddo, like "bed" beddo. But that doesn't make much difference, none of the options being proposed above are proposing spelling this anything other than Head in English so this should be at Headbanger (Babymetal song). It is a Babymetal song called Headbanger isn't it, what else would "Headbanger" be. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:34, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

No... "ヘッド" is "head", it's "バンギャー" that is not "banger".
If you don't believe me,
search The Japanese Wikipedia for "ヘッドバンガー": [6],
and now for "ヘドバンギャー": [7] -- all the results here are about the song by Babymetal. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:44, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but so what? This song is Headbanger (Babymetal song), the word is spelled Headbanger. We aren't going to deliberately misspell an English word because of a variation in katakana transcription. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:49, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

It's not a variation. The word is deliberately misspelled (or rather, mispronounced) both in Japanese and in the both English transliterations. --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:34, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

IIO, do you have a source that uses "Headbanger", or all this discussion is about who speaks Japanese the better, AKA WP:OR? © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 18:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

There are sources I could scrounge up that use the old spelling in English translations (including possibly even archived and current versions of official things (their iTunes bio, for instance, spells the single as it is spelled here, though the title for the actual single has been changed)), but my vote is move per my reasoning in the above section as it's the official title now. A well-sourced blurb can be included about the song changing titles. - Purplewowies (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

When you say "the old spelling", you mean "Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!!!!" (iTunes bio uses "Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!!!!"), but the user asked In ictu oculi to provide a source for simply "Headbanger" (like this, no exclamation marks). --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

(Cause it makes sense that "ギャー!!" is rendered as "geeeeerrrrr!!!!!" or "gya!!" (and there are reliable sources for these spellings), but In ictu oculi's proposal is quite different.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:46, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

There are no reliable English sources for this song period, you guys are discussing the toss between playful misspellings of "Headbanger" in English sources which don't pass WP:RS.The fact that you're even having a discussion on whether to misspell Headbanger as Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!! or Head Bangya!! shows that there are no reliable English sources.

In the absence of reliable English sources I suggest spelling Headbanger as it is spelled in English, in case any English-language readers look for this article. It is after all a 4:53 song about Japanese teen girl headbanging so much that a cervical collar / neck brace is needed and repeatedly shouting "Headbanger! "Headbanger! "Headbanger! "Headbanger! "Headbanger! throughout the lyrics. Japanese singles and albums often play with English words and load on meaningless !! !!!! not used in English. If you want to show that in these websites there are various playful ways of misspelling Headbanger it can be done in the lead, the title should still spell Headbanger as in English. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:56, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Why in the absence? Have you searched? I found these in one minute:

• Reliable third-party source for "Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!!": [8] (reliable for music reviews per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums/Sources#Online_only)
• Another reliable third-party source for "Headbangeeeeerrrrr!!!!!": [9]
• Reliable third-party source for "Head Bangya!!": [10]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

(ec; reply to In ictu) There are primary sources (sources the group/management presumably wrote) that could be used for a factual piece of information on the English translation/transliteration. They meet (or may meet in the case of some ones I'm not thinking of)the requirements in WP:SELFSOURCE. It is possible there are also English reliable sources from either before or after the change in spelling that make mention of the song using the "official" translation (i.e. the one on iTunes or the one on their YouTube video). (At any rate, the way it is used in English-language sources should be examined per WP:EN to establish the "widely-used" name, though I expect most of them to use one of the two "official" spellings, or, in lesser amounts, the spelling you provided, likely with exclamation points, from my memory of sources I've casually looked at.) I think "Headbanger" (with appropriate parentheticals) could be a useful redirect, but I do not think it should be the article name as it is not the English title used officially. If the group had not provided an official English spelling, then I might agree with you. - Purplewowies (talk) 23:57, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

• Move. Changed my vote. Agree to "Head Bangya!!". --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Improve article

Currently the article contains no information about the subject of the article, the actual song, the lyrics, the music, the video, the meaning, the content, what the song is about. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:56, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Good reliable source here: [11] (a little bit broken English, but it's just because it's a Japanese site; it's absolutely reliable; here's the Japanese version: [12])
And there's a link to a Rolling Stones review already in the External links section.
If no one expands the article in a month or so, I will do it myself. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:39, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

(I'm not doing it right now cause I'm fed up with Wikipedia :) and cause just rephrasing the whole Kawaii Girl Japan description will do 90% of it and a native English speaker would spend less time on this than I.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:44, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

More sources: [13], [14], [15], [16]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

One more source: [17]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:04, 23 August 2014 (UTC)