Talk:Janae Kroc

Requested move 4 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

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Janae Marie Kroc → Kroc – This person is mostly known for being the author of the "Kroc row" which only involves the shortening of the birth Kroczaleski surname, now the legal surname of Janae Marie. Even though JM is now the legal name, this person is not predominantly known by this name so we should not use it. Much like professional wrestlers (ie Test (wrestler) not "Andrew Robert Patrick Martin") we should refer to them by their most well known moniker, which is simply "Kroc", which also happens to be brief and easy to spell page name. Ranze (talk) 02:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 03:02, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Well, you've got Ray Kroc to compete for the primary redirect. Randy Kryn 1:27, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

  Good point @Randy Kryn: although I'm not sure if Ray is commonly referred to as just "Kroc" as Matt traditionally has, a natural result of naming a movement after a shortening of your surname. Now that this is the legal surname and fans want something familiar yet correct to use, just "Kroc" is going to be even more popular than before. Is it possible to have Kroc (disambiguation) to link to Ray and anyone else who might have the surname while using "Kroc" as the main article? A lot of literature still uses the name "Matt Kroc" on many videos and web sites so I think this is the most inclusive way to do it without prioritizing either Matthew or Janae. Although JM has been making the news in the past week, I have to question in terms of long-term notability if it was established enough to warrant this move. We tend to go by popular name over legal name, to use pro wrestlers, actors or musicians as an example. Am thinking "Kroc" is Matthew Kroc / Janae Kroc's popular name whereas am not getting this impressive of Ray. Ranze (talk) 05:40, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

  There's already a disambiguation page at KROC - this could be moved to Kroc or a separate page created there for the surname - it looks like there's no primary topic for the name. Peter James (talk) 23:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  How about 'Kroc (wrestler)' so the name is used but it doesn't take away from the radio call letters or Ray Kroc's page. Randy Kryn 13:17, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  Kroc isn't a wrestler. 64.228.91.73 (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

  Duh, I meant 'Kroc (weight lifter)', my mistake. But how about that title? Randy Kryn 22:22, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

  Bodybuilders also train with non-weight resistance bands, but I guess weights are the greatest aspect of distinction. How about (powerlifter) ? There is also the (author) aspect, parenthesis is messy for the multi-faceted. 64.228.91.73 (talk) 17:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Books

When I search Matt Kroc, the google wikipedia preview includes some details I don't see:

Spouse: Lauren Kroczaleski

Books: Insane Training: Garage Training, Powerlifting, Bodybuilding, and All-Out Bad-Ass Workouts

Children: Garrett Kroczaleski, Maxx Kroczaleski, Logan Kroczaleski

Siblings: Chris Kroczaleski, Kurt Kroczaleski

I understand the lack of necessity for displaying family (though I wonder if spouse/kids have also shortened surname), but shouldn't we keep the list of the books up? Ranze (talk) 03:18, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Self editing

Regarding Special:Diff/488943491 is there any evidence if this was actually the article subject making the edit, or possibly an impersonator? Seems like a sole-purpose editor. Ranze (talk) 03:20, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Removed line

most well known for mental toughness, work ethic, training intensity and ability to overcome adversity

I removed this because it wasn't sourced, and doesn't seem like something you actually COULD source. I personally first knew Kroc on the surface because of the 'kroc row' and writing articles for T-Nation. Although more thorough fans learning background info may appreciate the toughness/ethic/intensity/adversity stuff, that does not seem like the 'most well known for' attributes, but rather, personal opinions formed by long-term analysis of people who take more than a surface look, and most people do not do thorough looks, so complex opinions would not form the basis of what a celebrity is well known for. That'd be like saying that Jericho is most well known for saying "I'm from Winnipeg you idiot!". Sure, all the Jerichoholics know that line, it's a great tidbit that many of the most hardcore finds find memorable, but it isn't what he's most well known for. Ranze (talk) 03:52, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

genderfluid versus trans woman

So I located this Facebook post where Kroc identifies as being "genderfluid" and "transgender" but I am wondering if Kroc has actually used the term "trans woman" or "transgender woman" self-referentially.

Does anyone have a source to support the use of this label?

The FB post I cite above does include certain tags which I understand some take to suggest this:

• girlslikeus
• m2f
• mtf

But it also includes this tag:

• nonbinary

The term "genderfluid" on wikipedia redirects to the genderqueer article. I expect 'fluid' is preferred as it seems a bit less pejorative than 'queer' does (identifying with flexibility rather than strangeness) so I think it is right to use it here. This definition of the 'fluid' term is on the GQ article though:

"moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity"

Due to this, I wonder if we can phrase it in some way where it is like "also a trans woman" rather than "only a trans woman". I suppose 'came out as a trans woman' is kind of neutral, but I feel like it hugs the former more than the latter, and I think we should phrase this in some way to indicate the fluidic aspect which is different from the traditional "I only identify as a woman" type stuff like what we see with Caitlyn Jenner recently.

In this case, it seems like Kroc identifies as both simultaneously. Based on that, I would recommend avoiding pronouns altogether, as Kroc has stated a rejection of binary, so simply saying 'Kroc' where needed avoids that. Ranze (talk) 04:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Reddit as reference

Came across a couple interviews:

• November 2011: https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/mtzfg/iama_i_am_powerlifter_bodybuilder_and_allaround/
• August 2013: https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/1kghjj/im_matt_kroc_i_lift_heavy_things_got_some/

If it is possible to verify the identity of the poster, could these Q&As possibly be used as references? Ranze (talk) 08:03, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

What The Hell Is Going On Here?

This article is a HOT MESS! Every sentence starts with "Kroc" and NEVER or attempts to constantly hide behind her last name instead of using the pronoun she prefer which is SHE/HER! Now, I had to do a lot of hard work over at Caitlyn Jenner's page to get some decency over there, thankfully this article I can edit and thus I will. You all can thank me for the trans-friendly article later.