Talk:Halloween

Inaccurate information

Greece doesn't celebrate the festival of Halloween, but it was created in Greek antiquity nonetheless.

While much of the Western world except Greece celebrates Halloween on Thursday October 31, the celebration actually is rooted in ancient Greek mythology. The Ancient Greeks believed that people who died went to the banks of the River Styx, the boundary between Earth and the Underworld. They would give the ferryman Charon a tip to transport them across the river to Hades so as to spend eternity.

If they lived a good life, they would reside in Elysium, a virtual paradise, and also be allowed to return to the world of the living for one day per year.

Christianity converted this myth by stating that the virtuous would become saints and their day with the living was set on November 1 for all saints day or the “hallowed ones” where they were honored with praise and prayer for evil spirits to leave them.

That is how All Hallow's Eve became Halloween.121.222.48.84 (talk) 04:22, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

The information in this article is inaccurate. All Hallows Eve or All Saints Eve is simply the day before Halloween. All Saints Day is recorded to be on November 1. The day before All Saints Day has nothing to do with Saints Day. It is a day someone made up to capitalize on the selling of candy and retail merchandise. Going back to a Webster's dictionary printed in 1964 Halloween is noted as a day where children dress up in costumes and go begging. it is also noted as "THE DAY BEFORE" All Saints Day. Halloween IS NOT, I repeat "IS NOT" a christian holiday or celebration of any sort. It is an abomination to Christ to celebrate dead spirits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.255.43 (talk) 01:35, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Maybe this is a question of semantics but I do not agree with this point of view. Clearly an eve cannot refer to a day. But there are other issues. But this needs some context. In the Bible the Three Wise Men visited Herod which led to the Massacre of the Innocents. All Saints' Day in Mexico, coincides with the first day of the Day of the Dead (Día de los Muertos) celebration. Known as "Día de los Inocentes" (Day of the Innocents), it honours deceased children and infants. Portuguese children celebrate the Pão-por-Deus tradition (also called santorinho, bolinho or fiéis de Deus) going door-to-door, where they receive cakes, nuts and pomegranates. This occurs all over Portugal. This is very similar to the Halloween tradition. As traditions move around the globe they are often "translated" into different, local, customs. The veneration of Angels, Martyrs and Saints is matter of great debate among the Christian faiths, so I prefer not to comment. 77.167.212.162 15:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the above, for the most part. Unfortunately, this article is LOCKED and cannot be edited. Wikipedia should not allow this because so much information via Wikipedia is relied upon by far too many people in this day and age. This is egregious and outrageous that someone can put up an article without accountability and prevent others from updating or correcting it.

This article states that All Soul's Day is a Christian holiday and occurs on November 2nd of each year. All Soul's Day is NOT A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY, BUT A CATHOLIC HOLIDAY SOLELY. All Soul's Day is a day for praying for the souls in "purgatory". Catholicism is the ONLY religion that believes in purgatory, and while Catholicism is considered a Christian religion, no only Christian religion believes in purgatory, as there is no mention of it in the Bible. Hence, All Soul's Day is a CATHOLIC holiday, not a Christian holiday. All Saint's Day on November 1, however, IS a Christian holiday, since other Christian religions DO recognize the remembrance of those who have departed this life on this day. and

It is outrageous that this article cannot be corrected and is allowed to disseminate incorrect and inaccurate information to the world wide community. this is NOT in the spirit of true wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kentuckywoman2 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

References

Edit Warring, Plagiarism, and Unsourced Edits

Take down the Walmart ad. 73.165.97.80 (talk) 20:47, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm opening this thread and asking involved users to explain their edits. User:Bhlab has edit warred to introduce a revision of the article with the edit summary "Inaccurate claim maybe in the United States but not in Europe", violating WP:EW. Could he/she please explain what he/she is referring to? In addition, User:Randy Kryn has introduced a revision of the article with additions stating that Halloween has "it's [sic] original pagan name of [[Samhain]],". User:Randy Kryn has also directly lifted a sentence (without quotation marks) from the quote parameter of the reference Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night and has added that to the introduction, violating Wikipedia:Plagiarism. Could he/she please explain these edits? User:EvergreenFir, User:Jeff077, and User:Favonian have also contributed to these revisions and their comments would be welcome as well. I originally worked on this introduction a couple years ago and am going to revert to the stable version before the dispute, until these issues are addressed. Thank you, Anupam^Talk 22:44, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

No one has commented on the material thus far so I'm going to share my thoughts and hope others will chime in. I think User:Randy Kryn is correct when he wanted to mention that Halloween has a secular character as well, although I think that this word could be placed in a location other than next to the etymological summary of the article (see Edit Summary in question). I disagree with User:Bhlab's wholesale removal of the term, although I agree that in certain parts of the world, Christian religious traditions are carried out to observe the day, as section 8 of the article describes (see Edit Summary in question). Similar to Christmas and Easter articles, we have to present both aspects in the introduction. After I hear from others, I could look for sources to buttress such a statement. Another thing I observed was that User:Randy Kryn is adding that Samhain is an alternate name for Halloween and also adding the claim that modern wiccans [sic], observe Halloween as a holy day (see Edit Summary in question). This issue was discussed earlier (now archived), with the conclusion not to include that group, and it is clear that Wiccans do not observe Halloween as a holy day, but instead observe Samahin. The Manitoban notes that:

Wiccans don’t officially celebrate Halloween, despite the fact that Oct. 31 will still have a star beside it in any good Wiccan’s day planner. Starting at sundown, Wiccans celebrate a holiday known as Samhain. Samhain actually comes from old Celtic traditions and is not exclusive to Neopagan religions like Wicca. While the traditions of this holiday originate in Celtic countries, modern day Wiccans don’t try to historically replicate Samhain celebrations. Some traditional Samhain rituals are still practised but at its core, the holiday is simply a time to celebrate darkness and the dead — a possible reason why Samhain is often confused with Halloween celebrations" (Reference).

I would be completely fine with adding a footnote from The Manitoban in the infobox so readers can be alerted to this common confusion that the article speaks of. I think this would be a good compromise between a full removal and the mentioning of Wiccans, who do not observe Halloween, but its putative predecessor, Samhain. In this way, Halloween, which may have roots in Samhain, is akin to Christmas, which could have its roots in the pagan Saturnalia. I look forward to hearing the thoughts of others and suggest that we discuss any proposals here rather than seeing another edit war take place. With regards, Anupam^Talk 02:38, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Anupam! Thanks for starting this. The event for me started when I was checking Special:PendingChanges and reviewing edits. My first revert was because I was confused by the edit made, as it didn't seem logical. The second was a request for the user to discuss the matter on the talk page. Third was again a (strong) request to take it to the talk page and I realized this was edit warring. Warned user about 3rr. From there, it went downhill with reports to AN3, then some warning templates. Upon level 4 warning the user created the sock account Jeff077. Favonian and Bbb23 immediately jumped, locking the page and blocking the user and her/his sock. Upon review of the page history, this user has 2 prior edits reverted by Favonian and McGeddon so really the second one I reverted broke 3RR. Anyway, the content of the edits wasn't so much an issue (though I did think the by Randy Kryn were good, but didn't realize they were plagiarism). I have no issue with either form, just was responding to the behavior of the editor and their claim that it is s religious holiday in Europe. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:22, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello everyone! Though the conduct of Bhlab was inappropriate, he was correct in asserting that Hallowe’en may be considered secular in the United States but not in Europe and here in the Philippines, where many of the religious customs of the Church, described in the article, are very commonplace, i.e. the visitation of cemeteries, vigil services, etc. It’s also pretty obvious that Hallowe’en and Samhain are not the same holiday—the mentioning of “Samhain” in the lede is therefore inappropriate, as was Randy Kryn’s selective trimming of a quotation to push the claim that Hallowe’en is definitely descended from Samhain. The article, as well as academicians like Ron Hutton, makes it clear that this is just one theory and many scholars embrace the alternate theory that “the existence of a specific pan-Celtic religious festival which took place on 31st October/1st November” is dubious, as the BBC reference points out. Modern neopagans (including Wiccans) don’t celebrate Hallowe’en as one of their sabbats, but observe a reconstruction of how they believe Samhain was celebrated over a millennium ago.--AR E N Z O Y 1 6A•t a l k• 07:47, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I just got back to this, and see all kinds of edit wars. My edits were all in good faith (not plagiarized, I just saw one quote in references which would balance the page and pulled it out into the page). Now that the page is back to its original state - with the balancing edits reversed - the page, especially the lead and the infobox, again looks like a satire. Halloween is not totally a Christian holiday, the Christians stole it, slapped a new name on it, and it hasn't taken in recent years. All that aside, here is where the real discussion should take place. Halloween is listed under "Secular" at List of holidays, not under the Christian section. As long as it's not changed there it should be balanced here, which is all my edits were trying to do. There are prayers in the references in the infobox for Christsake (literally). Like I said, satire. Please read The Halloween Tree by the great Ray Bradbury - now he knew Halloween! Randy Kryn 22:00 1-6-14

Randy Kryn, although your edits might have been in good faith, directly pulling an author's words without making it clear that it is a quote, and instead presenting it as your creation, constitutes plagiarism. The bigger issue is that you selectively pulled part of the quotation and used it to push a view that the author did not intend. The original words of the author were that "In the case of Halloween, the Celtic celebration of Samhain is critical to its pagan legacy, a claim that has been foregrounded in recent years by both new-age enthusiasts and the evangelical Right." You only directly copied "the Celtic celebration of Samhain is critical to its pagan legacy", adding it to the article as a fact, rather than a claim being pushed by "new-age enthusiasts and the evangelical Right." I, and others here, have tried to respond to the material that you tried to add to the article, such as your false claims that Wiccans commemorate Halloween, and that Samhain equals Hallowe'en, but you have not addressed these issues. The lede is pretty clear that many academic scholars view Halloween as a Christianized festival being influenced by pagan festivals, such as Samhain (or as you bluntly state "the Christians stole it, slapped a new name on it"). We do have an entire section on "Gaelic and Welsh influence" that provides in depth coverage of its possible pagan origins and we have an entire separate article about Samhain. At the same time, the purpose of the lede is to summarize all the parts of this article--the etymology section (covered in the first paragraph of the lede), the history section (covered in the second paragraph of the lede), and sections three through nine (covered in the third paragraph of the lede). I added one sentence that states that the religious "customs are less pronounced" in some locations, such as where you are from (the United States?). You also have to take into account that in the Old World (such as where I'm from, the Philippines), many of the Christian religious customs are still observed on Hallowe'en. That's probably why the list of holidays that you linked to places Hallow'en as a secular holiday--because in some parts of the world, it is celebrated that way. It's our job to present a balanced perspective and we've done that in the lede by stating that in some parts of the world Christian religious customs are emphasized and in others they're less pronounced. You wrote that there are prayers. I don't see them. What I do see is a reference in the infobox supporting the word "prayer" as an observance of All Hallows' Eve in the infobox--that's just simply complying with WP:V. I also want to make mention that the fiction writer Ray Bradbury wrote The Halloween Tree as a fictional fantasy novel, as that article indicates. It's not a nonfiction book like the one's that are used in this article--let's stick to nonfiction references for this article.--AR E N Z O Y 1 6A•t a l k• 14:07, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

This isn't a topic I'll pursue, I was just editing some Bradbury stuff and took a look at the Halloween article and found its lead (usually considered the first paragraph) a satire on Halloween as being totally a Christian holiday. The term "secular" should be in the first paragraph, imho, to balance the labeling of the holiday. If it is honored as a Christian holiday in some places, that should be clear, as should the secularization of the holiday in many parts of the world (and what would you do with the "List of holidays" which lists Halloween as secular? If it stays that way, why wouldn't that be in the lead here?). As for the plagiarism, which I've never been accused of before, the reason I just released a portion of the quote from the reference was to not plagiarize but to present that point of view as a balance, nothing else intended. I'd put the entire quote in the body of the page and attribute it, but that would be reversed (that particular reference is selectively used on the page). And of course Ray Bradbury wrote fiction, but his "Halloween Tree" is based on factual data which attributes the original holiday as Samhain. Christians, of course, must carry the burden of their history of stealing holidays and symbols from other practices in order to divert attention away from them and to publicize their religion. Look what they did to the nature god Pan, a prime example of changing the emphasis. I'll make only one edit now on the page, the expansion of the Halloween template which has been reversed twice, but I'm glad this has been discussed a bit more and if you can't see why the word 'secular' should be in the first paragraph, please read this talk page over again and once again see List of holidays. Thanks. Randy Kryn 15:25 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with most of the things said by User:Renzoy16 and at the same time, see no issue with User:Randy Kryn's request to add that in some parts of the world, the holiday has become secularized. I went ahead and added that clause to User:Renzoy16's sentence and provided a reference for it. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 19:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I guess that is OK with me if it ends this dispute. I should clarify to Randy Kryn that the Church did Christianise various pagan festivals but when that happened, the festivals are no longer pagan. The spread of Candlemas, Halloween, Christmas, Easter, etc. as Christian holidays have been due to the Church, not previous pagan religions. Although they incorporated pre-Christian customs, they are now baptised as Christian ones.--AR E N Z O Y 1 6A•t a l k• 02:26, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

True but in Ireland the festival was never a Christian festival and never associated with Guy Fawkes. Each example in this thread is from Ireland yet the heading is "Gaelic and Welsh influence", Irish traditions at Halloween have nothing to do with Wales and as they have happened continuously to this day cannot simply be called Gaelic or Celtic. In Scotland (which received the Celtic part of its culture from Ireland), it is fair enough to say Celtic harvest festival as it only revived as Samhain/Samhuinn in 1988 after Scotland had originally being more influenced by Guy Fawkes night. I believe the page should revert to the way it was originally which was broken down by what each country had given to the modern Halloween instead of this pan-Celtic approach which essentially white washes what has been commonly understood as being an Irish festival. Here is the original page: http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/h/Halloween.htm

....  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.238.96.7 (talk) 13:47, 28 October 2014 (UTC) 

please change the link that the words "patato pancake" links to a page on that is not patato panckes

Hello, In the second paragraph the word "patato pancakes" in the string (apples, colcannon, cider, potato pancakes, and soul cakes) links to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxty When it should link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_pancake I would have made the change but the page is not open enough for me to do it (today). thanks for helping out. bytheway042 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bytheway042 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

• Done. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 02:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2015

Halloween is always (even to this day) celebrated on the last Friday of October in Kilmarnock, East Ayrshire, Scotland. This dates back to the time when factory workers would receive their pay packet on a Friday and in order to ensure treats could be purchased for children the day was moved to match that of pay day. 62.189.175.100 (talk) 13:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 13:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2015

please add in the Games and other activities that in sanford maine theres a place on halloween where you can go trunk or treating http://curtislake.org/2012/outreach/trunk-or-treat/ http://www.fosters.com/article/20151028/NEWS/151029330 http://www.fosters.com/article/20141023/NEWS/141029745 65.175.243.206 (talk) 21:18, 29 October 2015 (UTC)