Talk:Social justice warrior
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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 18 November 2014. The result of the discussion was Merge to Social justice. |
Non-notable, original research -- request deletion
Topic seems non-notable, and even though the current draft is vastly improved with citations, they still amount to original research. The citations are not about the term itself, but simply collations of uses of the term. Unless several objective citations can be found which actually discuss the term, as opposed to simply using it, I suggest the article be deleted, and I've marked it as such. Zegota (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Up for deletion but constructive edits only
This page does not appear to be notable enough to keep, if it is then more citations and information will need to be added. The layout may need to be changed. There's no need to start an edit war by deleting the contents and citations on the page wholesale on your own without explanation. 97.114.113.56 (talk) 21:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- The article, as-is, is poorly sourced and unsourced. There might be an article about this possible to write, but what's here is not a reasonable start to it. We need better sources than a blogger and a Forbes.com contributor. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- Even if you think this is a candidate for WP:SPEEDY you shouldn't take matters into your own hands, others have been improving this page (marginally). I considered additional citations and a reformat of the language of the page, but I suspect you would revert them. 97.114.113.56 (talk) 21:46, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- If you can write something that is coherent, neutral and well-sourced, nobody's going to revert it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- The as-is version that you mentioned didn't have any sources because you deleted all of the sources. Slow it down and lets talk this out, I expect that there is a lot of work to be done, lets all just take a deep breath. Juno (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- If you can write something that is coherent, neutral and well-sourced, nobody's going to revert it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- Even if you think this is a candidate for WP:SPEEDY you shouldn't take matters into your own hands, others have been improving this page (marginally). I considered additional citations and a reformat of the language of the page, but I suspect you would revert them. 97.114.113.56 (talk) 21:46, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Topic is very important and refers to a type of person who uses social justice themes in excess to the point of detriment. The article can be improved with some additional sources but need not be deletedShannonfraser (talk) 20:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Edit warring
This article does not appear notable, perhaps as a section of the gamergate controversy article, merge or speedy delete? I don't think NorthBySouthBaranof can wait until deletion or attempt to improve the sources of the page. I share the frustration but not the intent to vandalize. 97.114.113.56 (talk) 22:34, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Discussion of dispute templates
- a) The "Cyberbullying" category is not supported by any of the available sources.
b) The description of Andrew Sullivan as believing that"SJWs" believe that media should be censored to impact the ongoing cultural discourse and strongly advocate for the theory of white privilege
is not supported by the given source.c) KnowYourMeme is, by definition, not a reliable source — it is a source of entirely user-generated content and thus categorically fails to be acceptable here.NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:46, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for addressing these issues, Cobbsaladin. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:14, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Things which should be included
I know that this page has been merged into the social justice article but there are a number of things that article doesn't address which the washington post talked about in one of their articlestime[1] It talked about how it was used as positive and negative at different times in history, how its been included in the Oxford dictionary and how it became an insult. We also need to include the aspect of SJW's using social justice arguments to secure public status and inappropriate use of social justice arguments and terminology eg: SJW tendency to use valid social justice theories in excess to silence people, using terms like check your privilege, microaggression and racist to shut people up instead in addition to discussion designed to empower minorities Shannonfraser (talk) 21:00, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
The subject and the bigger picture
I must have rewritten the lead fifteen times without saving, all the while asking myself the following question that I will now ask all of you: what is it that we're trying to describe and explain with this article? Is it just a recent term or is it the most recent term for another, larger subject? If the latter, what is the larger subject? To me, it seems to fit within a group of negative characterizations of social justice activists that includes various accusations of self-righteousness/sanctimony; various forms of "othering" due to going against the status quo; names like cry baby, feminazi, and goody-goody; as well as things like "thought policing" and political correctness. So what is the bigger subject? Anti-progressivism is too broad and in many ways inaccurate, "anti social justice activism" is clunky, as is "opposition to social justice activism". Thoughts? (I want to be very clear that I'm not advocating any particular position, making an argument for deletion, or supporting either side of GamerGate, and in fact it would be really helpful if GamerGate didn't enter into this thread) --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:26, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Opposition to social justice activism is probably the best way to describe this. Then again the term SJW gets applied to anybody left of center in terms of their politics. Why can't we just focus on the notable academic subjects? We have one for social justice. This article should be salted --109.148.127.93 (talk) 12:09, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- To my mind, and in with the Forces piece, its the notion that these issues are window dressing for more. Either for a deeper political agenda, or as Rhododendrites put it "self-righteousness/sanctimony", as the end goal. Think liberalism/social justice:SJW::feminism:feminazi. Those who are grumbling about Suey Park are not grumbling about Thomas Aquinas. Juno (talk) 17:03, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed and Rhododendrites raises excellent questions. The lead as is doesn't make sense to me: a term for those who campaign against racism, sexism, etc. isn't objectively pejorative. Rather than extreme left I'd describe it as authoritarian left and largely internet-centric; so we're unlikely to find notable academic sources on issues that don't overlap with modern feminism (which is well studied.) Cobbsaladin (talk) 18:43, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- part of the issue is the lack of reliable sources talking about the subject. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:34, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I think this is one of the advantages of the Forbes quote, we don't necessarily state what they are definitively, but we do provide a good picture from a reliable source. Juno (talk) 00:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think I'll go back to the Forbes quote for the first sentence. It seems to do a great job encompassing the points that we discussed above. Juno (talk) 07:18, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Erik Kain's writings are a reliable source only for his own opinions; he is a WP:NEWSBLOGger and is not edited or otherwise fact-checked. We can use such a source to say that Erik Kain believes that's what an SJW is; we cannot use such a source to say "this is what an SJW is." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Thats why it woiuld be in quotation marks. Juno (talk) 07:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sure, in the body of the article, absolutely we can include Erik Kain's opinion. But we're not going to privilege his opinion above all others by making it the article's lead paragraph. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- So everyone agrees that the lead is quite flawed but I can't find anything more definitive. Does anyone have anything else out there from an RS that we could use? Juno (talk) 07:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't agree that the lead is flawed; I think for an opening sentence it does a fine job describing the consensus of reliable sources: that the term is used to describe social justice activists, mostly by their opponents, and is almost always applied pejoratively. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- 4 out of 4 of the editors who have commented all think the lead is flawed.
- The lead currently says that SJWs are people who like social justice. This is overly broad. While pretty much everyone would call [redacted blp] and SJW I don't think that anyone has ever applied the term to Thomas Aquinas. Not everyone who likes SJ is a SJW, and the opener needs to reflect this.
- I'm fine to go with a source/quote other than Forbes (its just the best from an RS that I've seen so far) and I'm fine to put all sorts of modifiers around Kain's credentials but we need something that narrows down who SJWs are. Juno (talk) 11:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Watch your BLP violations and making assumptions about what "everyone" will do. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- I can find literally no one who discusses the topic who does not think that [blp redacted] fits the mold and I can find literally no one who has ever called Thomas Aquinas a SJW. Juno (talk) 18:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- that your searching skills are limited does not excuse BLP violations. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure I'm not violating BLP and I remain confident that literally no one has said that Thomas Aquinas is an SJW. Juno (talk) 07:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- you would be quite literally, wrong. [1] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:48, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure I'm not violating BLP and I remain confident that literally no one has said that Thomas Aquinas is an SJW. Juno (talk) 07:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- that your searching skills are limited does not excuse BLP violations. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- I can find literally no one who discusses the topic who does not think that [blp redacted] fits the mold and I can find literally no one who has ever called Thomas Aquinas a SJW. Juno (talk) 18:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Watch your BLP violations and making assumptions about what "everyone" will do. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's not an RS for anything besides his own opinion, and Erik Kain doesn't write for Forbes. He's a Forbes.com contributor, which is not at all the same thing. By the way, no, you're wrong about what "pretty much everyone" would do. The vast majority of people don't even use that phrase or that terminology. Its use is restricted to a subset of people who pejoratively apply it to another group of people they oppose.
- There is no universally-agreed-upon definition of SJW, Juno — people who pejoratively describe other people don't get to define those other people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- The Forbes version of the lead seems superior to me 1) because it relies on better ref and 2) because it actually explains why the term "Social Justice Warrior" is pejorative. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- A Forbes.com contributor blogger is not a better ref, and the description is, at best, contentious.
- It is instructive to note that Kain himself admits that the description is unsettled and contentious, with his statement that it is also viewed as meaning
...What you’re called whenever you talk about social justice issues when writing about games, even if you don’t mean to push an agenda or personally benefit.
That is, Kain is acknowledging that those to whom the term is applied wildly disagree about its meaning. We can't privilege one of those meanings over the other. We should certainly explain in the text of the article what Kain thinks the people who use "SJW" mean by it, but adopting that viewpoint as our own is right out. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)- NorthBySouthBaranof, to me, it seems to go without saying that a term used as a pejorative would be contentious. I think it also goes without saying that such terms will be applied to people who do not at all fit the pejorative meaning, and also that people who are described pejoratively will tend to disagree with negative description applied to them (that seems to be the case with all pejoratives). I think the text you mention of it being applied in cases where target didn't mean to push an agenda also seems relevant and belongs in the article. But still, the Forbes quote version of the lead seems superior because it communicates to the reader why this phrase is pejorative and gives some insight into how the phrase is used as a pejorative, which seems to be useful and vital information for the lead.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- We can communicate why the phrase is pejorative without appearing to adopt the meaning ourselves. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, we can, and the version you reverted seemed to do so nicely by using a direct quote and attributing it to it's source.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:05, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, it didn't, because it privileged one person's opinion above all others in the article's lead, without any particular evidence that his opinion reflects the consensus of reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:08, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- A: It didn't "privilege" a person's opinion, it quoted an author, in context, who is paid to white about these issues for an RS.
- B: Its better than an opening sentence that is wrong, and that there is consensus to change. It doesn't have to be the Forbes source, but the lead can't go one saying "SJWs are people who like SJ", that is deliberately false. Juno (talk) 18:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why is a video game journalist an RS to talk about content relating to social justice? Have a look at the sort of articles that Erik Kain writes. You do realise this is an academic field of its own right --5.81.52.82 (talk) 17:56, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, we can, and the version you reverted seemed to do so nicely by using a direct quote and attributing it to it's source.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:05, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- We can communicate why the phrase is pejorative without appearing to adopt the meaning ourselves. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- NorthBySouthBaranof, to me, it seems to go without saying that a term used as a pejorative would be contentious. I think it also goes without saying that such terms will be applied to people who do not at all fit the pejorative meaning, and also that people who are described pejoratively will tend to disagree with negative description applied to them (that seems to be the case with all pejoratives). I think the text you mention of it being applied in cases where target didn't mean to push an agenda also seems relevant and belongs in the article. But still, the Forbes quote version of the lead seems superior because it communicates to the reader why this phrase is pejorative and gives some insight into how the phrase is used as a pejorative, which seems to be useful and vital information for the lead.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- The Forbes version of the lead seems superior to me 1) because it relies on better ref and 2) because it actually explains why the term "Social Justice Warrior" is pejorative. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't agree that the lead is flawed; I think for an opening sentence it does a fine job describing the consensus of reliable sources: that the term is used to describe social justice activists, mostly by their opponents, and is almost always applied pejoratively. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- So everyone agrees that the lead is quite flawed but I can't find anything more definitive. Does anyone have anything else out there from an RS that we could use? Juno (talk) 07:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sure, in the body of the article, absolutely we can include Erik Kain's opinion. But we're not going to privilege his opinion above all others by making it the article's lead paragraph. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- Thats why it woiuld be in quotation marks. Juno (talk) 07:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Gamergate mention or no gamergate mention
At some point the article mentioned gamergate and a editor removed this on the logic that its probably more controversial than helpful. On the one hand, I figure that gamergate is probably where the term first picked up general media usage, on the other, I am sympathetic to the desire to tone these articles down until after the controversy dies down. What does everyone here think? Juno (talk) 11:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- The same issue here as with the article as a whole, no one is talking about the subject of the article, a pejorative phrase, in the context of gamergate or any other issue. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. You were saying? Tutelary (talk) 18:40, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- You really think that "Honey Badger Brigade" is a good source? --5.81.52.82 (talk) 20:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- precisely. and none of the reliable sources are talking about the term, merely giving a definition. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- How can an editor can have so many edits and not understand WP:RS --5.81.52.82 (talk) 16:27, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- precisely. and none of the reliable sources are talking about the term, merely giving a definition. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- You really think that "Honey Badger Brigade" is a good source? --5.81.52.82 (talk) 20:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. You were saying? Tutelary (talk) 18:40, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Forbes source
Not sure if this breaks WP:OR but how can the term be simultaneously about individuals who "social justice issues like sexism, homophobia, etc. to push a political agenda and personally benefit" but also anybody who "talk(s) about social justice issues". Those are two different definitions and the latter clearly encompasses the first --5.81.52.82 (talk) 20:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- (that's the problem when you attempt to use a non linguist's blog "definition" as the primary reference for your "definition")-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:52, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know how the article can be in any way informative if it contradicts itself in the first paragraph --5.81.52.82 (talk) 16:26, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- The article doesn't actually say both of those things simultaneously. Juno (talk) 07:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sure it does. Kain specifically says
So what is a Social Justice Warrior? There are two definitions. First, the definition as it’s applied by those who use it and second the definition as it’s received by those who it’s used against.
You wanted to use Kain really, really badly — you can't now cherry-pick just one of his two definitions for the lede merely because you prefer it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sure it does. Kain specifically says
- The article doesn't actually say both of those things simultaneously. Juno (talk) 07:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know how the article can be in any way informative if it contradicts itself in the first paragraph --5.81.52.82 (talk) 16:26, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Is Kain notable enough to dictate the lede of the article and therefore main definition of the subject
I'm curious why Kain's opinion on this subject should be the one that dictates how the entire topic is defined. The article states:
- "Erik Kain, a contributor to Forbes.com says the term is used by opponents to allege the use of "social justice issues like sexism, homophobia, etc. to push a political agenda and personally benefit" but those who are targeted view the accusation being applied to anyone who "talk(s) about social justice issues" whether or not they are pushing an agenda or stand to benefit."
However is doesn't exactly say who Erik Kain is or why we should care what he defines the subject as. It seems that he mostly writes gaming articles. Why is he defining of an article within the field of social justice which is an academic field with many experts. Furthermore, it is written in Wikipedia's voice that "those who are targeted view the accusation being applied to anyone who" talks about said issues. Then it cuts back into Kains voice in the quotation. It should either be direct quotations or statements that can be backed up by sources. We can't just say that "those who are targeted" view it as such without other quotations that state as such. Either way I don't think it's a particularly strong definition for the lede section of the article --5.81.52.82 (talk) 16:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Here is his bio at forbes [7]:
- "I write about video games: the industry and the culture."
He is almost certainly an WP:UNDUE source for the lede section of an article relating to an academic field --5.81.52.82 (talk) 17:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that it's inappropriate to use Kain, who is not a notable expert in this field, to define the term. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:12, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Kain is far from an expert in the area and should not be defaulted to as the primary definer of the term, we need some type of expert such as a linguist. Oh , yeah. None of those have bothered to note the term. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Does anyone have an academic source that defines the term? Kain is a paid author in the field writing in a RS. He isn't the best (and I don't especially like his definition) but he seems to be the best that we have now. Juno (talk) 20:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- If we had that, the AfD would be Speedy Keep. The fact is, Kain, the non linguist blogger for a finance mag is the strongest "source" put forward. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- You should have a look at some more serious articles and look at who it is who defines the topic in the first sentence or so of the article, preferably one in the sociology portal because that is the area which this article is related to. I am fairly sure they will not be based on the opinions of video game journalists. If you take feminism and social justice as examples, you will find they are based on dictionary definitions. Sources are crucial for this sort of a topic and Kain is WP:UNDUE as a voice to define it --5.81.52.82 (talk) 00:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- I would love to have more articles. Do you have any good ones? Juno (talk) 07:07, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Those two weren't good examples? Sociology, aesthetics, capitalism etc. All use dictionary definitions --5.81.52.82 (talk) 09:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry if I was vague, I meant "do you have any good dictionary definitions?" I would be totally cool to move to a dictionary. Juno (talk) 14:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Those two weren't good examples? Sociology, aesthetics, capitalism etc. All use dictionary definitions --5.81.52.82 (talk) 09:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- I would love to have more articles. Do you have any good ones? Juno (talk) 07:07, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- You should have a look at some more serious articles and look at who it is who defines the topic in the first sentence or so of the article, preferably one in the sociology portal because that is the area which this article is related to. I am fairly sure they will not be based on the opinions of video game journalists. If you take feminism and social justice as examples, you will find they are based on dictionary definitions. Sources are crucial for this sort of a topic and Kain is WP:UNDUE as a voice to define it --5.81.52.82 (talk) 00:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
The Eric Kain piece is not an acceptable source. It's from Forbes' blog section, which allows pretty much anyone to publish their own material without any serious editorial oversight.[8] Unless he has some expertise in linguistics or something like that, the article shouldn't be cited. It's not a good sign that this is being treated as one of the most substantial sources for this topic.--Cúchullain t/c 13:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- While I agree that we could do with more sources, in fairness, the guy is a professional writer and this is his focus area. Juno (talk) 14:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Linguistics is most emphatically NOT his focus area. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:23, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Self-published sources like this are acceptable if they're an "established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". Kain appears to write about video games, not linguistics or lexicography or anything else that would make him an "established expert" on defining words and terms.--Cúchullain t/c 14:35, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Linguistics is most emphatically NOT his focus area. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:23, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Kain is no longer the focal point of the lead. I agree a single person's definition, unless it's simply the best articulated version of what most people are saying, is not appropriate to start off with. That said, I see nothing wrong with using it as a source with the rest. This is an article just as much about culture, politics, activism, etc. as it is linguistics. Ensure you cite linguistics experts for phoneme and morpheme, but linguists aren't actually authorities on what reliable sources say about a term, nor do they constitute the only reliable sources. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Various other published sources would be reliable for this topic, but again, this is effectively a self-published source.--Cúchullain t/c 16:25, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- See WP:NEWSBLOG. It's published by Forbes, although it might not be subject to their typical fact-checking procedures and is indeed an opinion piece. So we wouldn't say "according to Forbes" we would say "according to Erik Kain", but as a general rule (though context does matter, of course) news blogs and opinion pieces in reliable publications are fair game to use as a source so long as you're not giving it undue weight and as long as you're citing/crediting/handling it appropriately. As I said above, I agree it would be inappropriate to rely on his quote as a definition, but the lead no longer does that and I think the Kain piece, because of where it's published, is entirely fit to include as one among many footnotes. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- This isn't even at the level of a WP:NEWSBLOG, which implies some kind of connection and oversight by the publication. As I said, the Forbes.com blog section is effectively just an avenue for pretty much anyone to post pretty much whatever they want, with little if any oversight.[9] Appearing on Forbes.com doesn't offer much more noteworthiness than appearing on Wordpress.--Cúchullain t/c 16:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think you should take it to WP:RSN. It would be useful to have more opinions on to talk about Forbes blogs in the future. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Follow-up - I looked around at RSN. It looks like Forbes "contributors" like this are commonly considered to be somewhere between a normal blog and a newsblog, and so what really matters is if the author has an otherwise reliable reputation. So this does solidify that using the Kain quote as our primary lead content is undue and inappropriate. As far as using as a source at all, though, I still fail to see a problem. I see people arguing that because he writes about "games, industry, and culture" he is not qualified to talk about a social justice page. But this isn't a page about social justice; it's a pejorative/neologism -- part of culture, and in the context of his writing, intimately connected to video game culture. So again, while I agree that he was undue to quote from in the lead, I don't think there's any problem with using it as one of many sources. And I have to thank you for setting me straight about the Forbes blogs -- I didn't know they were so open. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:10, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- He is a professional writer and this is his topic of expertise. Juno (talk) 17:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- No matter how many times you assert it, Linguistics is NOT his topic of expertise and repetition will not make it so. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Kain's piece may get some cred if we take Kain's other writing on GamerGate and video game controversies to be "expertise" on "social justice warriors" in general, but most of that seems to be on Forbes.com as well. But at this point it's really a matter of why opinions expressed in a Forbes blog are noteworthy to the topic. At any rate, there's clearly no consensus that Kain's piece is worth using here.--Cúchullain t/c 18:59, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Kain doesn't write about linguistics or about social justice. He writes about video games. That gives him no viable credibility or expertise to define the term. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:02, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof and TheRedPenOfDoom: (From above):
This is an article just as much about culture, politics, activism, etc. as it is linguistics. Ensure you cite linguistics experts for phoneme and morpheme, but linguists aren't actually authorities on what reliable sources say about a term, nor do they constitute the only reliable sources.
To argue that someone needs to be a linguist to talk about an issue like this is a little ridiculous. I agree that it is not an authoritative or properly summarizing definition such that it should be quoted directly, but the question now is whether to include it as a source (among many others). Why are you applying the "is he a linguist" test to this person and not every other source in that case? --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)- the focus in this section on Kain came because some editors were edit warring to insert (part of) Kain's definition as the primary definition in the lead. the fact that none of the other sources are linguists or subject matter experts either is also an issue.. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- You can't argue that an article is problematic as a dicdef and then insist it be treated like a dictionary entry by insisting that sources be written by linguists. There is no precedent for that except on linguistics-related articles and, perhaps, if we were in fact using the quote. The quote is gone. The argument now is about whether to use that as a source (and, apparently, whether to use any non-linguist as a source??) --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Good_research Of course I can argue that we need to use appropriate sources and subject matter experts for the topic. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- A linguist or rhetorician could point that out as a straw man argument, but the problem here is that this is not a linguistics article and the only reason you're arguing that linguistics makes sense is because you're treating this article as a dictionary definition or otherwise as an article about language, which it is not. It's an article related to culture, politics, activism, society, injustice, sexism, and so on -- because it's a concept, not just a term. You're trying to argue that someone who writes about culture and in particular the culture with which this concept is most frequently associated is not a reliable source to cite because of the subject matter he/she writes about. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:23, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- if this is an article about a game or a business you sure could have fooled me.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:56, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- A linguist or rhetorician could point that out as a straw man argument, but the problem here is that this is not a linguistics article and the only reason you're arguing that linguistics makes sense is because you're treating this article as a dictionary definition or otherwise as an article about language, which it is not. It's an article related to culture, politics, activism, society, injustice, sexism, and so on -- because it's a concept, not just a term. You're trying to argue that someone who writes about culture and in particular the culture with which this concept is most frequently associated is not a reliable source to cite because of the subject matter he/she writes about. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:23, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Good_research Of course I can argue that we need to use appropriate sources and subject matter experts for the topic. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- You can't argue that an article is problematic as a dicdef and then insist it be treated like a dictionary entry by insisting that sources be written by linguists. There is no precedent for that except on linguistics-related articles and, perhaps, if we were in fact using the quote. The quote is gone. The argument now is about whether to use that as a source (and, apparently, whether to use any non-linguist as a source??) --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- the focus in this section on Kain came because some editors were edit warring to insert (part of) Kain's definition as the primary definition in the lead. the fact that none of the other sources are linguists or subject matter experts either is also an issue.. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- I stand by my statement that someone who spends his time writing about video games does not have any particular credibility to define a term used virtually exclusively to denigrate people who are concerned with issues of gender, race, class and culture. You have presented no evidence that video games are "the culture with which this concept is most frequently associated." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- But someone who spends his time writing about video games doesn't have credibility to talk about/describe/define a concept used virtually exclusively by people within video game culture? (edit conflict) regarding "no evidence," I'm just incredulous. Are you really saying the sources don't provide enough evidence that this term is not only closely associated with GamerGate but specifically used as a weapon by those on the "gamer"/"gamergater"/whatever side of things? Or are you saying that GamerGate has nothing to do with games and therefore we can't make this association? If the latter, whether or not gaming is used as a pretense to carry out acts of sexism, harassment, etc., that it is specifically gaming used as a pretense and that it is covered extensively in gaming press and associated with something called "Gamer"Gate means it's connected to games verifiably whether or not the connection properly explains the truth of what's happening. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:50, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- The fact that it has been used is certainly clear, but there's no apparent evidence that it is widespread in gaming as opposed to the small GamerGate fringe, which overlaps with Men's Rights Activists and not by a small amount. The fact that Erik Kain wrote a couple of articles sympathetic to GamerGaters does not make him an expert in defining a slur wielded against GamerGate's opponents. Use of the term long predates the emergence of GamerGate. It is far more closely linked to anti-feminist and MRA sentiment. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- But someone who spends his time writing about video games doesn't have credibility to talk about/describe/define a concept used virtually exclusively by people within video game culture? (edit conflict) regarding "no evidence," I'm just incredulous. Are you really saying the sources don't provide enough evidence that this term is not only closely associated with GamerGate but specifically used as a weapon by those on the "gamer"/"gamergater"/whatever side of things? Or are you saying that GamerGate has nothing to do with games and therefore we can't make this association? If the latter, whether or not gaming is used as a pretense to carry out acts of sexism, harassment, etc., that it is specifically gaming used as a pretense and that it is covered extensively in gaming press and associated with something called "Gamer"Gate means it's connected to games verifiably whether or not the connection properly explains the truth of what's happening. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:50, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Also, @Cuchullain: I see you've removed Kain again citing WP:BRD and WP:BURDEN. I won't be reverting again because I'd rather not participate in an edit war, but neither of those policies actually apply. Regarding BRD, the Kain quote was in there since the very first version of this article. In terms of BRD -- regardless of whether we determine it's reliable and/or should be included -- removing it is the bold action. As far as BURDEN, all you did was remove a source, not any material. Burden is about providing sources to back up statements -- it's why BURDEN is part of WP:V. I've already removed the quote -- how about a good faith self-revert, adding it back until this discussion progresses rather than pushing forward while citing policies that actually work against you. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- The fact that it was there at the first part of the article isn't a particularly good reason to keep it there. Reading through it, I'm fairly sure the article itself was written initially to prove a WP:POINT and is certainly not WP:NPOV. Furthermore it is very similar to the article for this that was deleted less than a month ago --5.81.52.82 (talk) 22:55, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- And nobody made that argument. It was removed on BRD grounds. My point is not "hey it was in there before so it should still be in there". My point is that he/she removed something, I reverted, (the B and the R), then he/she reinstated it citing BRD. This is not an argument whatsoever on behalf of the content, just about the grounds on which it's being edit warred over. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:26, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- The fact that it was there at the first part of the article isn't a particularly good reason to keep it there. Reading through it, I'm fairly sure the article itself was written initially to prove a WP:POINT and is certainly not WP:NPOV. Furthermore it is very similar to the article for this that was deleted less than a month ago --5.81.52.82 (talk) 22:55, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof and TheRedPenOfDoom: (From above):
- No matter how many times you assert it, Linguistics is NOT his topic of expertise and repetition will not make it so. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- He is a professional writer and this is his topic of expertise. Juno (talk) 17:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- This isn't even at the level of a WP:NEWSBLOG, which implies some kind of connection and oversight by the publication. As I said, the Forbes.com blog section is effectively just an avenue for pretty much anyone to post pretty much whatever they want, with little if any oversight.[9] Appearing on Forbes.com doesn't offer much more noteworthiness than appearing on Wordpress.--Cúchullain t/c 16:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- See WP:NEWSBLOG. It's published by Forbes, although it might not be subject to their typical fact-checking procedures and is indeed an opinion piece. So we wouldn't say "according to Forbes" we would say "according to Erik Kain", but as a general rule (though context does matter, of course) news blogs and opinion pieces in reliable publications are fair game to use as a source so long as you're not giving it undue weight and as long as you're citing/crediting/handling it appropriately. As I said above, I agree it would be inappropriate to rely on his quote as a definition, but the lead no longer does that and I think the Kain piece, because of where it's published, is entirely fit to include as one among many footnotes. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Cyberbullying
Hey guys, we've gone back and forth over the cyberbullying category a few times in the edits summaries. I'd like to talk over the reasoning here.
I've seen SJWs and Cyberbullying mentioned together enough that I think it merits the category. Juno (talk) 07:10, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What you have "seen" is not relevant; what is verifiable in reliable sources is. As per WP:CATEGORIES,
Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories.
None of the sources cited here make any such link. Moreover, per WP:CATDEF,A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having.
Unless a clear consensus of reliable sources consistently link this subject with "cyberbullying," the category is inappropriate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)- There is no need for you to take such an uncollegial, demeaning tone. Stay CIVIL. I'll go dig up all the sources. Juno (talk) 20:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that there I haven't seen enough in the sources yet to justify adding this category except insofar as any insult hurled online would be considered cyberbullying (which I don't think is entirely accurate). --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:12, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- There is no need for you to take such an uncollegial, demeaning tone. Stay CIVIL. I'll go dig up all the sources. Juno (talk) 20:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Past use
I've seen several sources connecting this term to men's rights as well as the term employed by men's rights activists, but none of them are particularly reliable. Has anyone found good ones? Even if they're not "about" the term -- just for a statement connecting the two, which we already know are connected via the unreliable sources. If they don't exist, they don't exist. I've seen it used pejoratively in a variety of other contexts, too, of course -- and reliable sources for any non-GG context would be welcomed (and if I'm missing some of these that came up here or at the AfD, my apologies for being redundant).
Important note: The thing to ensure is that we find sources about the pejorative. I know this has been addressed in different ways already, but to reiterate/summarize/emphasize: the words "social justice" and "warrior" have been put together in the past as well as other forms of advocacy/activism plus "warrior" because "warrior" is a common metaphor for someone working hard or [again metaphorically] "fighting" for what one believes. But that isn't the subject of the article. It makes sense as a positive; what is notable is that it was turned into a pejorative; hijacked in a way. And then even a pejorative reappropriated to a positive on the pejorative's terms, if that makes sense. In other words, don't cite sources that simply invoke these three words unless it's in the context of being a negative or reappropriating a negative. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- I've added this academic article with a definition about people pursuing social justice and being rejected by their communities for it, which is exactly the topic covered. It doesn't make sense to restrict the article to only pejorative uses if reliable sources are not using it only that way, what we need to do is cover all usages by RSs. The article should follow what sources say about the term, not the other way around. Diego (talk) 16:35, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- P.S. The article is nominated for deletion for lack of sources, it doesn't make sense to reject those sources that would help establishing the notability of the topic. Diego (talk) 16:38, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- That one might work, but how would you incorporate it? It's not exactly about the neologism although it's on-topic enough to include in some way. The problem with many of the sources I've seen, however, is that they simply invoke those three words in a generally positive context that could just as well be "social justice fighter" or "crusader for social justice" or any other similar metaphor. Those aren't going to help at AfD. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:45, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- This article is specifically about the modern pejorative term "social justice warrior", not about anyone and everyone who has ever been called a warrior for social justice. These are two totally different concepts, and per WP:NOTDIC and WP:NOT#DICDEF, we don't cover distinct concepts in the same article just because they happen to be called by the same term.--Cúchullain t/c 16:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- This article is specifically about the modern pejorative term "social justice warrior" Says who? I thought Wikipedia articles were about topics defined in reliable sources, not what editors' whims compel them to write about. Even if there were nuances to their different meanings, both should be merged into the same article. There are not enough content to write two separate articles, one about what SJWs do and a different one on how people use the name. Diego (talk) 16:52, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Diego I've reverted that change. I see you just added it to the lead, which entirely changes the subject of the article into either a pejorative or a positive, which is just not the case -- and it's that that will get the article deleted on DICDEF grounds. The subject here is the pejorative. We already have an article about social justice to talk about people who advocate for social justice issues. What we don't have is an article about this term being used against those people in a rather interesting way (culturally speaking). I know you're just trying to improve or even save the article from deletion, but that does more harm than good. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:50, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- What may be useful about the article you found is that it provides some precedent for viewing people who act as "social justice warriors" as a negative, but again, it's not exactly in the same way so I think we should wait until the article builds out somewhat to see where it fits. Right now it would probably be undue. Know, however, that things aren't supposed to be deleted at AfD because of what sources are currently in the article, but what sources exist on the subject, so finding that is still helpful. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:52, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Diego, you'd have to have some reliable sources that are actually about this topic to define it as you do. So far, we have one or two that offer a very basic definition in an article about something else, a few others that happen to use the term in an article about something else, and then your sources that use the term, in a different sense, in an article about something else. None of this adds up to "article".--Cúchullain t/c 17:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's you who needs sources that establish these as separate topics to talk about them being different concepts, if you want to make them as separate articles (and I've already shown the reliable sources that define the topic). Otherwise, an article titled "social justice warrior" should talk about what reliable sources have said about social justice warriors. I don't see any deep difference in meaning merely because some sources like the idea and use the term as praise while others use it as a pejorative - all uses are referring to the same concept, which is someone fighting for social justice as a cause (be it feminism, video games, or government corruption as in the academic source). Requiring separate articles for both points of view on this same basic idea would be a WP:POVFORK. Is this a Wikipedia:Broad concept article? Maybe, but it doesn't make sense to split it into subtopics in the way you suggest until we have enough material for a very long article first, which is clearly not the case. Diego (talk) 17:37, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know what "these" you're referring to or what other separate articles would be created. A topic on every possible use of the term "social justice warrior" is not encyclopedic. It's a dictionary entry with multiple definitions. What is notable is the use of this term in a particular way, reactions to that, characterizations associated with it, its use in the media, reappropriations, and so on. Sources defining the topic aren't absolutely necessary, but several that I and others have included do exactly that. What we need are more sources that treat it as a topic, not sources that merely define it, and not sources that use that combination of words in their commonsense meaning (as in, like I was describing above, "one who advocates (or 'goes to war') for social justice issues"). --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:00, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- On the contrary, that's the way we create articles on this encyclopedia. We look at how WP:reliable sources have defined a topic (preferably academic sources like the one I added), and expand that definition with usages in other sourcesto avoid the article being a WP:DICTDEF; but it doesn't make sense at this point to say "only these usages should be included and not the rest", because usages are defined by what sources cover, not by what editors think should be included; limiting the subject that way would be a violation of neutrality, as we must be guided by what all reliable sources say, not restrict our coverage to just the ones we prefer. "One who advocates (or 'goes to war') for social justice issues" is how the academic source defines the topic, so that should be the basis for the article, and we should expand from that.
- If there are too many different uses to fit a single article, we split it into several sub-articles, as wikipedia is not paper and we don't have limits of size; however, we're far from that point. It doesn't make sense to start splitting the topic when we don't have enough material even for a C class article. Diego (talk) 18:23, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know what "these" you're referring to or what other separate articles would be created. A topic on every possible use of the term "social justice warrior" is not encyclopedic. It's a dictionary entry with multiple definitions. What is notable is the use of this term in a particular way, reactions to that, characterizations associated with it, its use in the media, reappropriations, and so on. Sources defining the topic aren't absolutely necessary, but several that I and others have included do exactly that. What we need are more sources that treat it as a topic, not sources that merely define it, and not sources that use that combination of words in their commonsense meaning (as in, like I was describing above, "one who advocates (or 'goes to war') for social justice issues"). --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:00, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's you who needs sources that establish these as separate topics to talk about them being different concepts, if you want to make them as separate articles (and I've already shown the reliable sources that define the topic). Otherwise, an article titled "social justice warrior" should talk about what reliable sources have said about social justice warriors. I don't see any deep difference in meaning merely because some sources like the idea and use the term as praise while others use it as a pejorative - all uses are referring to the same concept, which is someone fighting for social justice as a cause (be it feminism, video games, or government corruption as in the academic source). Requiring separate articles for both points of view on this same basic idea would be a WP:POVFORK. Is this a Wikipedia:Broad concept article? Maybe, but it doesn't make sense to split it into subtopics in the way you suggest until we have enough material for a very long article first, which is clearly not the case. Diego (talk) 17:37, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Diego, you'd have to have some reliable sources that are actually about this topic to define it as you do. So far, we have one or two that offer a very basic definition in an article about something else, a few others that happen to use the term in an article about something else, and then your sources that use the term, in a different sense, in an article about something else. None of this adds up to "article".--Cúchullain t/c 17:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- One of the key differences between an encyclopedia (which Wikipedia is) and a dictionary (which Wikipedia is not) is that the former deals with concepts and the latter deals with terms. In this case, we have on one hand sources (such as they are) describing "social justice warrior" as a facetious pejorative, and on the other, your sources describing "social justice warriors" who are actually warriors for social justice. We have no sources giving both senses. Dictionaries would give both senses in one entry; encyclopedias do not.--Cúchullain t/c 18:34, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
" writers who choose to examine the social and political subtexts of " <insert cause here>. Of course , but . Diego (talk) 18:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree that pre-online culture discussions of SJW fall outside of this present term. Maybe a section on past use? Juno (talk) 17:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that could be a good way to integrate previous definitions with the recent appearances in the media pertaining the GamerGate, which seems to be the main usage. Diego (talk) 18:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Disparate uses of the term should not be included unless sources explicitly link them. That's not the case here.--Cúchullain t/c 18:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- The concept behind all the available references is the same: people who engage in public discourse to support a social cause. "Someone who uses social justice"..., "people who [...] engage in ‘social justice arguments on the internet", "any person [...] who argues online for political correctness or feminism", "...spend their time on social media condemning those who fail to live up to their own moral and ethical standards"...
- These are the meanings attributed to the words by reliable sources, whether they agree that they describe a real phenomenon or are merely used as insults. All these fit within the academic definition of someone "who attacks existing social norms and programs to achieve greater social justice and advance social goals not readily accepted by the general public". There are no competing definitions here, no separate concepts, unless you're talking of a use/mention distinction that wouldn't merit separate articles (precisely because of WP:DICTDEF).
- The sources are not specialized in linguistics, so they don't seem particularly suitable to talk about the history and evolution of the term, though they are all valid to establish the notability as a concept - and the concept being described is the same in all cases, unless you can provide a reference to establish that sources using the same words with similar meanings are referring to different topics. Diego (talk) 18:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's definitely two different concepts, which are never covered together within the same source. And encyclopedia articles don't cover two distinct concepts in the same article simply because they're homographs.--Cúchullain t/c 19:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- If there are two concepts, what are those two concepts, and how do they differ? What evidence do you have that, when the news media used as references say "social justice warrior", they aren't actually talking about people being criticized for defending social causes? (which is the concept described in the academic paper). Diego (talk) 17:49, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's definitely two different concepts, which are never covered together within the same source. And encyclopedia articles don't cover two distinct concepts in the same article simply because they're homographs.--Cúchullain t/c 19:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Disparate uses of the term should not be included unless sources explicitly link them. That's not the case here.--Cúchullain t/c 18:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
So what we have is
A small handful of sources describing the pejorative term "social justice warrior" with little detail or even agreed consensus as to the terms meaning. Another handful of sources that use the term "social justice warrior" in an entirely different way. No sources that discuss both or clarify how the uses differ or influence each other. Connecting the two would be WP:OR. It would make it look like there are more sources to include both but wouldn't improve the quality of the sources that we do have or really give more clarity to the article itself. This is a classic case of people saying "there are some sources, so it should be covered" without thinking about how that affects the quality of the article or whether it is useful for the topic to be covered in the first place. I guess at this point it depends whether you think Wikipedia should be a wiki of everything written ever from every single perspective however crank or fringe or if it should be an encyclopedia weighted to generally established or reliable sources that focus explicitly on said topic, of which, for this topic, there are few if any --5.81.52.82 (talk) 22:50, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
GG
Ok well first of all it's silly to avoid mentioning GamerGate. Yes, it's a mess, but this article is going to be connected to it by those involved whether or not it actually says anything about GamerGate in the article. A lot of coverage of this subject is in relation to GamerGate so, in a well developed article I would imagine it would even have its own section. Can we workshop a way to include it here first to avoid unnecessary edit wars, etc. at the article? Maybe someone provide a well-sourced sentence or two for discussion? I'll give it a go later today if nobody else does. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Very much agreed at GG does need to be mentioned at some point, even as reluctant as I am to open up that who can of worms. Juno (talk) 17:44, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- "The slur was frequently hurled as part of the #Gamergate controversy"[2] is pretty much all that can be said. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- This article, should it continue to exist, should explain that the term rose to prominence (well, prominence among the small niche of the internet who thinks the whole internet is paying attention) in 2014 in connection with Gamergate.--Milowent • hasspoken 17:24, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
References
Redirecting
This article currently redirects to the social justice page and this has to be corrected. Social Justice refers to a cause and Social Justice Warrior refers to a type of person who fights for that kind of cause. Does anyone know how to redirct this page so it does not go to the social justice, if not, le'ts fix up the article and then look to get it directed properlyShannonfraser (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Article merge
This article has apparently been merged into the article on social justice but the article on social justice does not even contain the term social justice warrior. This content has been completely deleted and need sot be restored in some way. Either the person who deleted it fromt he social justice page should restore it or this page needs to be restored.Shannonfraser (talk) 21:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
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