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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 46.200.26.232 (talk) at 20:12, 20 July 2016 (→‎Requested move 17 July 2016). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Current Mayor Ivan Kulichenko....

was elected in 2010 as an independent candidate; but he officially joined the ranks of the Party of Regions last July.[1]

  1. ^ Template:Uk icon Мер Полтави вступив у Партію регіонів The mayor of Poltava joined the Party of Regions, The Ukrainian Week (21 July 2012)

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City renamed to "Dnipro".

On May 19, 2016 the Ukrainian parliament renamed the city to "Dnipro" (http://www.unian.info/politics/1349664-dnipropetrovsk-renamed-dnipro.html), as part of a "decommunization drive". Should the article title reflect this? - Toothswung (talk) 09:02, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

per WP:MODERNPLACENAME "For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one." Dnipropetrovsk would work in the appropriate historical context, but as of May 19 the official name is Dnipro and so far, there is no 2016 scholarship or journalism to fall back on (though it's safe to say journalism will follow suit, and Google Maps and other sources of that nature have a precedent of following the new names quickly). --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 14:07, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Until page is move, the lead should reflect the article name. Qed237 (talk) 14:44, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kyiv's article is still Kiev, but it still includes both names in the lede and all pertinent information on the alt names for readers. No reason to remove facts from the intro, even though we're deciding on how to handle the article title separately --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 14:52, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Two completely different situations, that is about spelling, this is about the actual name. Lead should reflect article title until page is moved per wikipedia guidelines. Qed237 (talk) 14:56, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your reverts were very uncool. If it was about which name goes first in the lede, change that, or focus on the infobox, but don't just undo everything otherwise it just looks poor form. --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 15:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just found a little tidbit, but the official new Russian spelling is now also Dnipro (Днипро) [1] so no alt spellings needed--BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 14:48, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

why can't you dumbasses understand there's no such city named dnipropetrovsk anymore? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.17.168.60 (talk) 11:48, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 19 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved per consensus based on arguments in compliance with the WP:AT policy. SSTflyer 05:36, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dnipropetrovsk → Dnipro (city) – Per WP:MODERNPLACENAME we shouldn't wait for the official name becoming common in sources. According to the official Ukrainian Rada website, 190 MPs voted "for", 17 against, 20 abstained and 104 were absent. The decree was adopted ("Рішення прийняте") today, on May 19. Brandmeistertalk 14:18, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just a correction, that was the first poll on the consideration for the simplified procedure, the actual vote was 247 for, 16 against, 7 abstained [2] --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 14:42, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, thanks. Brandmeistertalk 14:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Name officially changed, article should reflect contemporary use. Obviously use Dnipropetrovsk for historical context, but this is about today forward. --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 15:20, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It is too soon to make this change. Changes in the city name should be verifiable in independent secondary reliable sources. The outpourings of the Rada are primary sources. In addition, this is English language Wikipedia - what matters is what people call the city in English. This is not within the gift of the Rada. None of us have any idea whether this new name will stick; nor do we have any idea whether it will be used in English.-- Toddy1 (talk) 17:38, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tod, how is widely reported news of a public law a primary source? The article itself cites (or cited prior to the reverts) the UNIAN/Pravda/RFERL articles on it, plus KP covered it here --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 17:44, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Those sources are articles simply reporting the Rada action. They are not articles about other topics which use the new name. Reports about the Rada action are not examples of the use of the name in common English usage. --Taivo (talk) 14:02, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Absolutely--Andriy.v (talk) 17:41, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Dnipro is now the official name. Toddy, there's no reason to believe that the English-language media will reject it. It's not like the city is as famous as Kiev. Hergilei (talk) 18:05, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Dnipro is now the official name of the city, it isn't a matter of choice and how people prefer to call the city. A.h. king • Talk to me! 20:28, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Toddy is right that what matters is not the will of the Rada, but English usage because this is the English Wikipedia. We've gone over this monthly for years at Kiev and Odessa. If a city in Ukraine has a common English name, then we use it and don't really care what the Rada or Ukrainian diaspora think. All that matters is what English speakers call it. But that being said, it's also the case that there are hundreds of places in Ukraine that are virtually never mentioned in English media or literature. When they are mentioned, it is usually in connection with WWII and then the Russian form of the name is used (in some cases the Polish form) and not the Ukrainian one. Dnipro(petrovsk) falls into that category. I've only seen one book on the city in English ("Rock and Roll in the Rocket City") and it's about the Soviet era, so the Russian Dniepropetrovsk is consistently used. --Taivo (talk) 03:24, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kiev and Odessa is largely a different case because they have not been officially renamed, unlike Dnipropetrovsk. The only issue is whether the Rada has the authority to rename cities, seemingly it does. Brandmeistertalk 07:40, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No. That's not the issue. The Rada's action makes zero difference to the English Wikipedia per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Use_modern_names, which are the governing rules for Wikipedia. The latter specifically states that official changes are not instantaneous. That's why Kiev and Odessa are not "Kyiv" and "Odesa" (and why it's Chernobyl as well). We consider other factors in Wikipedia to be more important. Rather than just blindly parroting, "But the Rada says so", why aren't we looking at other factors and making an intelligent decision? --Taivo (talk) 13:46, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder what other factors can be and how can we write about it. Of course we can find some ignorant sources that will still use an old name (for example, an Irish travel website still offers travel from Dublin to Voroshilovgrad, even those the city was renamed before this website appeared, but probably no one travelled from Dublin to Voroshilovgrad/Luhansk since 1991), but how can we distinguish an ignorant source and a source that knows about the rename but still ignores it? Also, how shall we write the lede of the article in this case: something like Dnipropetrovsk is the former name of the city nowadays known as Dnipro? In general I would be interested in an example where a name change happened but the article was not renamed. I looked at Denali case, but the article was renamed about an hour after the announcement, even though English usage could not change within an hour. I also looked at Staines-upon-Thames case, but the article was renamed 8 minutes after the official name change. I simply could not find any example outside India and South Africa (where English names were replaced with non-English names) of a name change that would not be shown on Wikipedia immediately — NickK (talk) 21:01, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Finally someone looking at evidence other than "The Rada says so." This is a start, but the article isn't as strong a piece of evidence since the article itself is about the name change. Has anyone seen an article in English about Dnipro that isn't about the name change, but uses "Dnipro"? That's the kind of evidence that will convince the voices of caution here. --Taivo (talk) 13:51, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It took time for Burma to become Myanmar in English. An official change of name is not necessarily instantaneous in English usage. --Taivo (talk) 13:54, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Name of the country or its capital frequently appears on world maps, drop down lists and other places therefore country and capital names can be considered to be part of common knowledge. So it is possible to argue that English speakers keep using old name despite the official change but a city of Dnipro level is unlikely to appear in many places if in any at all so it is possible to argue that there cannot be a commonly used English name for a city like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.142.79.165 (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't they have books in Australia? Of course books spell the city Yekaterinoslaf or Dnepropetrovsk. So maybe that is why you did not recognise it.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:29, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a common world map to back my point, out of Ukrainian cities only Kyiv spelled Kiev is on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.142.79.165 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unless English is the language of the Russian WP, then it's irrelevant here. Only English usage matters here per WP:COMMONNAME. --Taivo (talk) 14:06, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Based on the news sources above. Regarding the name change from Burma to Myanmar, it took a while because the name change occurred under a military junta in which many political and opposition groups object to (they saw the military government lacking legitimacy). Ssbbplayer (talk) 14:03, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But Wikipedia did not change because English usage did not change. That's the point. And the articles so far cited are articles about the name change itself, not articles that demonstrate that the name change has worked its way into English usage. --Taivo (talk) 14:06, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Strange, that it needs to make such kind of request--Noel baran (talk) 14:51, 20 May 2016 (UTC)--Noel baran (talk) 14:51, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support––Geohem (talk) 17:35, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support--Trydence (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - with the law or without it, people already use the new name --Tohaomg (talk) 22:00, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support-- GWA88 (talk) 23:57, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support-- --Lohengrin (talk) 06:34, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support-- --Bouzinac (talk) Bouzinac (talk) 15:42, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Wikipedia follows the WP:COMMONNAME policy, under which it is mostly irrelevant what the official name is (Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title). What is relevant is the usage in reliable English language sources, and I still do not see any evidence that "Dnipro" is a common name in English language sources. Those who argue for renaming say that "there is no reason to think it would not be universally adopted". But, Wikipedia should not try to predict the future (see WP:CRYSTAL). We look into already existing reliable sources to identify the commonly used name, we should not try to predict what the commonly used name will be in the future. So, there is not policy-based reason to rename this article (yet). Vanjagenije (talk) 14:29, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:CRYSTAL works both ways here: keeping Dnipropetrovsk as the name of the article means that we predict that the new name will be never used in English-reason sources. Still, in a similar case (McKinley/Denali) this question did not arise. Why should we speculate that the new name will be basically ignored? — NickK (talk) 16:18, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. And just to prevent all kinds of speculation in "common" names which I saw in Kyiv article - for all Ukrainians call it by long DniproPETROVSK name is not common for decades already, saying this as person who lives in this city and who knows a lot of people in Ukraine. Sandric (talk) 18:38, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support-- --Neptune777 (talk) 22:42, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support renaming but not now. Decree is not signed yet, and voting results are protested now by some parliamentary members. Decree maybe signed and deposited after the voting for decree project 3864-П. So renaming is not in act now.--Anatoliy (Talk) 20:57, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, it's not official yet but even without that formality, city workers have tore down the sign on the city entrance already. Looking set in stone (literally). [3] --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 17:45, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter if the whole population of Dnipro (including my aged in-laws) turns out and spells Dnipro on the banks of the river in blue and yellow shirts, that's not English usage. --Taivo (talk) 17:48, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support:
    • There is no evidence that this city has a common English name because
      1. Nothing of worldwide importance happens in this city really.
      2. Before 1991 the most common name was Dnepropetrovsk (and it's still in use). While Kiev didn't change to Kyiv, Dnepropetrovsk did change to Dnipropetrovsk.
      3. How often this city is mentioned in the English language sources (except for English versions of sites related to this city)?
    • There is evidence that city renames in Ukraine sanctioned by a legitimate government are adopted in English language: We have Rivne and Luhansk (not Rovno or Voroshilovgrad).
    • So, based on several quoted policies I think that:
      1. WP:MODERNPLACENAME can be used as it was renamed by a legitimate government.
      2. WP:COMMONNAME cannot be used because it's based on assumption that common usage won't change without reasonable backing evidence.
      3. WP:CRYSTAL can be used in support as "1. Individual scheduled or expected future events".
    • —Drundia (talk) 01:15, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your view that nothing of worldwide importance happens in Dnepropetrovsk is mistaken. Have you heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis? The missiles were from Dnepropetrovsk. Dnepropetrovsk designed and manufactured many of the Soviet Union's ICBMs; rockets from Dnepropetrovsk took an important role in the Soviet space programme. The city is also mentioned in accounts of the what Western People call the Eastern Front of World War II.-- Toddy1 (talk) 06:30, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – WP:TOOSOON for common usage; it took years until Mumbai replaced Bombay in English and other languages. Besides, the article itself says that the name change is controversial for the local population including the city mayor. Who knows if they'll change it back next month? — JFG talk 15:05, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. When it becomes commonly known as Dnipro then we can change it. Until then it's commonly known by its longer name. It is utterly irrelevant what its official name may be or what Ukrainians call it. All that matters is what it's called in reliable English-language sources (discounting those published in Ukraine itself, of course). -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:14, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Population rank

There is a mistake in the first paragraph. Dnipro is fourth largest city, not third. --Tohaomg (talk) 19:20, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

List of cities in Ukraine provides numbers which say this is the third city. If you have different numbers pls provide a reliable source.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:28, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is a data of 2001 census in the List of cities in Ukraine, but in the ukrainian page uk:Міста України (за населенням) there is a data of 2014 estimate, so it is more actual. uk:Міста України (за населенням) shows that Dnipro was fourth in 2014 and the third place was owned by Odesa. --Tohaomg (talk) 19:44, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I see indeed that the 2015 estimates also place Odessa above Dnipropetrovsk. Please add a formal protected request template, and then I can correct the article.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What is "formal protected request template"? --Tohaomg (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
{{Edit fully-protected}}--Ymblanter (talk) 20:18, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
English WP rules prohibit changes unless a formal request is submitted? +to enwp's stupidities. I should start enumerating them somewhere. --ᛒᚨᛊᛖ (ᛏᚨᛚᚲ) 20:23, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 19 May 2016

The data of 2001 census is written on the page. There is a newer data of 2014 estimate on the page uk:Міста України (за населенням), so the page Dnipropetrovsk needs to be updated. It is needed to change "Dnipropetrovsk is the third biggest city of Ukraine" to "Dnipropetrovsk is the fourth biggest city of Ukraine". Tohaomg (talk) 20:57, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, see the above section.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 19 May 2016

The same as above, but in Infobox settlement. Tohaomg (talk) 21:24, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — xaosflux Talk 01:52, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 22 May 2016

{{edit fully-protected|Dnipro|answered=no}} <!-- Be sure to state UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes; editors who can edit the protected page need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests WILL be declined. --> <!-- Begin request --> <!-- End request -->

ManDrivnyk007 (talk) 07:58, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You filled in the template wrongly. I have made it "no wiki" so you can see this missing bit (the bit between "Begin request" and "End request"-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:06, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, this was ManDrivnyk007's first edit on English Wikipedia.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:09, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the article name still Dnipropetrovsk???

The city has been offcically renamed, and the changes have already taken effect: http://zakon2.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/1375-19 (Ukrainian). I see the discussion on this page below, but I can't find any conclusions on the discussion. --Maximaximum (talk) 08:12, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion and the conclusions are exactly five sections above this one.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:15, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an English language article on non Ukrainian website that uses new name Dnipro http://www.esctoday.com/136663/eurovision-2017-kyiv-set-host-contest — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.197.19.78 (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Usage of Dnipro

Dear all,

Dnipro has been already mentioned in few news articles:

  1. http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/348766.html
  3. http://uatoday.tv/society/19-ukrainian-soldiers-injured-at-the-front-transported-to-dnipro-hospitals-671920.html

One can argue that it's Ukrainian media. However, I don't think that foreign media track changes of Ukrainian cities' names. 170.178.162.125 (talk) 07:13, 15 June 2016 (UTC)A[reply]

Dnepropetrovsk International Airport knows better :)-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And notice that Dnepropetrovsk International Airport has flights to "Kiev". There is no rush to change names. Wikipedia is not a current events blog. It is an encyclopedia that tracks human knowledge and allows users to find information about names and places that they might encounter in other reading. If their other reading is talking about Dnipropetrovsk, or even Dnepropetrovsk, then Wikipedia must make it easy for them to find that information. --Taivo (talk) 01:45, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the case, as it should be renamed separately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tudy sudy (talk • contribs) 09:13, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also here is an English language article on non Ukrainian website that uses the new name Dnipro

  1. http://www.esctoday.com/136663/eurovision-2017-kyiv-set-host-contest

Usage of new name takes off so it is now appropriate to change the name of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.197.104.119 (talk) 09:55, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Usage may be "taking off", but it's still not common yet. There is no point to rushing into changing just because you've got ants in your pants. --Taivo (talk) 01:40, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Old or new name?

Guys here pointed out to the spelling as 'Dnipropetrovsk' rahter than 'Dnipro'. Why then article about renamed AFTER Dnipro, city, Horishny Plavny, are with new name, but Dnipro - with old one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horishni_Plavni I'm not even mentioned error in existing name of article - it always was DnEpropetrivsk, as pointed Toddy1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.127.46.4 (talk) 08:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2016

This page contains links to promote a website https://www.virtualtourist.com/ 201.191.198.186 (talk) 00:14, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No it does not. It contains citations, some of which are to that site.-- Toddy1 (talk) 04:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'Dnipro' usage examples

I'd like to start the list of 'Dnipro' name usage examples and invite other users to add to the list. Tried to gather sources not from Ukraine, as someone wished (though plenty of web-cites in .ua domen [eg. IT companies with international connections] have influence on other www segments). I know, you can add more reliable sources. -- Ата (talk) 14:17, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Eurovision topic:

Time and date web-sites:

Economic news:

Ordinary usage by people:

-- Ата (talk) 14:17, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at one of those websites - it got its content by copying from other websites, and then putting the words "read the full article on...".-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:59, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is by no means a compendium of current English usage. As Toddy points out, in many (most) cases you have listed, this is just cut and paste usage from a single source. You have to do more than just do a Google search and listing links. You have to actually read and evaluate each source. By requiring unique sources, your list of Eurovision articles is reduced to one as well as your list of economic articles. Indeed, in both of these cases even, the underlying source for the usage isn't actually an English source, but a Ukrainian one that the English source simply copies. --Taivo (talk) 07:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
May I suggest that if people are just copying text without changing the city name then they are ok with it? --Ата (talk) 08:08, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some more:

Dnipro

The city's name was changed, here's the proof [4] so what else to discuss here? This article should be renamed to Dnipro.--Orange-kun (talk) 13:48, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 July 2016

– The city's name was changed, here's the proof [5]. So what else to discuss here? It's not an opinion war, it's a fact, the city has a new name. Orange-kun (talk) 13:59, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We had a RM less than two months ago, nothing has changed since end of May, I do not see any point in opening a new one to be honest. Did you care to read it before posting here?--Ymblanter (talk) 14:04, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Because this is not about what the cities are called within Ukraine, in Ukrainian. It's about what is most commonly used in the English language. You have to demonstrate that a majority of the reliable sources in English are now using "Dnipro" instead of "Dnipropetrovsk". A handful of mirrors of a single news report does not demonstrate "common English usage". You are itching to change things immediately. Wikipedia doesn't work that way. Read the history of discussion at Kiev and Odessa for an example of how common English usage works. --Taivo (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's still not about "respectable journals", but about common English usage. The first of your two articles doesn't even count because it is an article about the name change itself. The second one does, indeed, use "Dnipro" in a context outside the name change. But it's just one source. "Common" isn't one source. There is no rush to change this article name. Just look at the discussions at Kiev adn Odessa. Wikipedia is bound by English common usage, not the current political whims of the Rada. --Taivo (talk) 18:32, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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