Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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What is our approach to trademarks in this difficult case?

There is a type a rifle (lightweight intermediate cartridge magazine-fed air-cooled semi-automatic rifle with a rotating lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas-operation or long/short stroke piston operation). The originating model of this type of rifle was named "AR-15". AR-15's are still made, by the Colt Manufacturing Company, under that trademarked name.

Very similar rifles are made by some other companies. They are (universally, I gather) referred to as "AR-15's" -- not only informally by gun people in conversation, but in the pages of gun magazines and so forth. There is simply no generic term for these entities -- "AR-15" is the only word for these things. (It's sort of as if there was no term "sports car", only the term "Ferrari" for all sports cars, or whatever.)

In spite of this, Colt Manufacturing defends its trademark, I am given to understand. The fact that (I gather) gun magazine editors etc. don't pay attention to them on this subject indicates they are not defending successfully. But they are trying, and no judge has formally ruled that they have failed and that "AR-15" has falled to the status of a genericized trade mark. De facto it may have (although I question Wikipedia's standing to make that judgement). (FWIW I think no non-Colt manufacturer has gone so far as to use a model name of "AR-15", though; whether other manufactures go so far as writing in their marketing materials "Meet the StreetSweeper, the newest AR-15 from North American Veeblefletzer", I do not know.)

So... how do we refer to these types of a rifles? Can our article about this type of rifle be named AR-15s (a suggested name)? How about AR-15 variants (the current name) or AR-15-type rifles?

I believe that is we had an article listing brands of facial tissue, we could not -- even if we wanted to -- title it Brands of kleenex. Correct? What about Brands of kleenex-like tissue -- maybe that would be OK? This is above my pay grade.

The problem here is there is no alternative term for "AR-15", as there is for "kleenex" (you can say "facial tissue"). (Instead of "AR-15" you can say "lightweight intermediate cartridge magazine-fed air-cooled semi-automatic rifle with a rotating lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas-operation or long/short stroke piston operation" bat that's too long to be useful.)

We certainly want to avoid violating Colt's trademark rights, helping push their valuable trademark toward genericized-trademark status, or position ourselves to be the subject (at least in theory) of a valid cease-and-desist letter. On the the other hand, is there any point to being behind the curve if de facto Colt has really already lost the game?

I see no useful guidance at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks or Wikipedia:Copyrights, nor is the Wikipedia:Copyright problems board the right venue for this, so I ask here for guidance. Herostratus (talk) 01:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we referred to all assault rifles as AR-15s, we would not be violating Colt's trademark, since we are not selling any guns, nor are we coordinating with anyone who is. Trademark law in the US has precisely zero bearing on how third-parties refer to a trademark-holder's products. So you can just ignore the legal issues and follow the sources, whatever they say. Also, I'm surprised to hear this. I had always seen them referred to as "AR-15 style weapons" and the like. Maybe we're reading different sources. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Go with the sources and call them AR-15s. Add a name section at the top like the Vacuum cleaner article has done for Hoover - X201 (talk) 10:48, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We're not talking about how we refer to Colt product, but rather to non-Colt products. My understanding is that, if in a published movie review a person writes "In the final scene, Julia reaches for a kleenex as she xeroxes the love letter" (rather than "...reaches for a tissue as she photocopies...") they are at least theoretically liable to get request-for-correction letters from Kimberly-Clark and Xerox Corporation. And if they egregiously ignore that, I believe that Kimberly-Clark and Xerox may at least theoretically request an injunction (not sure about that part). Is this not correct? And if it is correct, it would apply to us as much as to Movie Reviews Magazine, I would think, and it that is true, why should we give less consideration to Colt then we would to any other company with a valuable trademark? Herostratus (talk) 02:04, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, Herostratus. No no no no no. Someguy1221 has already explained this, above. You infringe someone else's trademark if you seek to trade by using their trademark. You do not do anything more than piss them off if you use their trademark in a way in which they'd prefer you not to - such as the example you give. Here's our very crappy article on Trademark infringement. Trademarks can become Generic trademarks, and in doing so, can lose all of their former power. Companies may try to stop this happening by getting pissy with the reviewer in your example, seeking to stop her from using their precious trademark in a general way. The reviewer is entitled to bid them stick their concerns where the sun does not shine. The company can certainly apply for an injunction, but not even an East Texas court will give them one. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:19, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it doesn't matter how many no's you string together, I don't think you understand intellectual property law. Trademark dilution opens with "Trademark dilution is a trademark law concept giving the owner of a famous trademark standing to forbid others from using that mark in a way that would lessen its uniqueness". I'm not convinced that there is some unique property of the Colt Manufacturing Company that they may not avail themselves of this protection.

You are saying it would be both legally and morally proper for us to have a article titled List of kleenex brands, thereby serving to materially dilute the value of Kimberly-Clark's trademark (tradmarks are considered a corporate asset and and often valued at many millions of dollars) and ushering us closer to a world were I can sell "Veeblefletzer brand kleenexes" (as I can with aspirin). Even if this is perfectly legally proper -- I remain skeptical, if Kimberly-Clark is protecting the copyright, but I'm willing to be educated on this, by a copyright lawyer -- it is wrong IMO. We are supposed to protect the reusability of our material, and "Well, it's technically legal to re-use this material, but you're screwing the Colt Corporation" falls short of what our standard ought to be, maybe. Herostratus (talk) 04:03, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

15 U.S. Code Section 1125(c)(1): "Subject to the principles of equity, the owner of a famous mark that is distinctive, inherently or through acquired distinctiveness, shall be entitled to an injunction against another person who, at any time after the owner’s mark has become famous, commences use of a mark or trade name in commerce that is likely to cause dilution by blurring or dilution by tarnishment of the famous mark, regardless of the presence or absence of actual or likely confusion, of competition, or of actual economic injury." Later in 1125(c)(3): '"The following shall not be actionable as dilution by blurring or dilution by tarnishment under this subsection:... (B) All forms of news reporting and news commentary. [and] (C) Any noncommercial use of a mark." Actual case law, as well as legal theory, takes a very dim view of litigants who have tried to use trademark law to stop people from talking about their marks, even incorrectly. At OTRS, at least when I was a regular, we would get these complaints all the time. It was treated as a non-issue, and as far as I'm aware, Wikimedia Foundation lawyers were never concerned about the possibility of being sued over it. That aside, I do think referring to every gun similar to an AR-15 as an AR-15 is a mistake. Just for the sake of avoiding ambiguity, we shouldn't do that, even if some news sources do. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:17, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Don't put (stupid) words into my mouth. I'm capable of being stupid without your kind assistance. 1. I have not said anything about morality, one way or another. 2. I have not said anything about the legality of an article such as List of kleenex brands, except by inference - it would be a stupid article title. 3. I have said that trademark infringement requires the infringer to be trading in something or other. If you had troubled to read the second sentence of the article you pointed to, and, indeed, the rest of the article, you would have found much to support the view that dilution occurs as a result of some sort of trading activity, not mere use of a term in a way that displeases the trademark owner. You confuse dilution with genericisation. They are distinct things. Trademarks protect the use of the protected term in matters of trade. The clue is in the name. Trademarks do not protect the term absent trade. "but I'm willing to be educated on this, by a copyright lawyer", you say (even though we were discussing trademarks ... easy mistake to make). Here's one: Simon, Ilanah (Summer 2006). "The Actual Dilution Requirement in the United States, United Kingdom and European Union: A Comparative Analysis" (PDF). Journal of Science & Technology Law. 12 (2). Come back when you've waded through that. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:36, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the statement, "...referring to every gun similar to an AR-15 as an AR-15 is a mistake. Just for the sake of avoiding ambiguity, we shouldn't do that, even if some news sources do". In fact, not only news sources but firearms experts refer to this class of weapons as "AR-15s".[1][2][3][4][5][6] In many cases they mention "Colt" rarely if at all. It is the common term. Some news sources and others refer to "AR-15-style" firearms, or similar equivocations, but they are a minority.

As for enforcement by Colt, it appears to be nonexistent. Many manufacturers and retailers refer to their non-Colt products as "AR-15s", for example, Stag Arms: "Browse our selection of AR15 Rifles.", or this retailer: "Buy a fully-assembled AR-15 at Primary Arms and choose from brands like Radical Firearms, Daniel Defense, Spikes Tactical, and more." And more: [7][8][9] I can't speak to the theoretical legal issues, but in practice this seems to be a non-issue.

The reason this matters is that numerous sources make statements about "AR-15s", saying things like, "The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America." A title we're using now on Wikipedia, AR-15 variants, has two problems: first, "variants" implies a subset of weapons derived from the original AR-15, rather than an overview of the entire class, and second, no source uses that term. As it stands now, there is no article where we can summarize what reliable sourcs say about this class of mostly interchangeable firearms. Felsic2 (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, OK, I stand corrected! Everyone seems to agree that as long as we are not abrogating the trademark by distributing a firearm called the "WikiMedia AR-15" we are free to use the term however we like. It follows from that that we are free to rename the article Facial tissue to Kleenex (after clearing the way by moving the current Kleenex to Kleenex (brand)) -- very similar circumstances, I'd have to think. (Whether we should do that depends on analyzing the data and how to best apply WP:COMMONNAME to take readers where most expect to go. But quite possibly. But that question doesn't apply to AR-15s, though -- most people associate "AR-15" with the type, I am informed.) So I learned something today. Back to the RM then and thanks to all who corresponded. Herostratus (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Establishments in (location) by (year) articles for times when (location) didn't exist

We probably need some clarification, policy-wise, on how to handle situations like I just found at Category:Establishments in Spain by year. See, "Spain" is not a concept which has existed forever, even historiographically speaking, the earliest one could consider a place called "Spain" would have been the 16th century. Prior to that were places like "Castile" and "Leon", etc. Likewise Category:Establishments in France by year has establishments as early as 365; there weren't even Franks in the area! The Manual of Style specifically notes we should use the name of the place at the time the event occurred, to quote "An article about Junipero Serra should say he lived in Alta Mexico not the U.S. state of California because the latter entity did not exist at the time of Junipero Serra. The Romans invaded Gaul, not France, and Thabo Mbeki was the president of the Republic of South Africa, not of the Cape Colony." I am not aware of any exception carved out for categories, so, for example, the Ancient Diocese of Toul should NOT be categorized in Category:365 establishments in France but rather in Category:365 establishments in Gaul. I'm also not quite sure where to cross-post this discussion, so if anyone has suggestions for where, or if I should move this to a better page, let me know and I will do so. This page seems to have the wider readership... --Jayron 32 16:54, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Archive 15#RFC on yyyy in Foo is a discussion that I'm sure will provide the clarity you seek. Thincat (talk) 19:00, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Talk pages vs. reference desks

I would like to know if anyone has an opinion about discontinuing talk pages (applies only to articles, not templates, categories, etc.) and using the reference desks instead for improvements. Talk pages of articles that are not on many people's watchlists are often not bothered for a long time. Georgia guy (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean these reference desks? Cause those are for things that have nothing to do with Wikipedia. And dumping all article improvement talk on them would be an enormously bad idea. Besides the overwhelming nature of those things it would make it harder to focus on the article you want. We have be bold for a reason. If an article isn't watched by a lot of people (note that watching an article also watches its talk page) then you are invited to just improve it. --Majora (talk) 23:49, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's think. Replace 5+ million talk pages with 1 reference desk page. What could go wrong. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia guy you are correct that there are, at a minimum, 10s of 1000s of article that are not on any active editors watchlists. You can go to the Wikiproject(s) listed on the talk page to make suggestions/ask questions. Granted many of them are now inactive so the next step is to go the various noticeboards (Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard for example) available. Majora's point about just taking the bull by the horns and editing a given article is a good one. MarnetteD|Talk 00:30, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'Fuck Trump' Redirect page to protest signs paragraph

Hi, I'm currently disputing a speedy deletion of a redirect from 'Fuck Trump' to Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign,_2016#Protests because it's common on protest signage, and noted in the paragraph it's redirected to. If I am in error, I don't understand how a redirect that points to an expression on common signage is a personal attack? Victor Grigas (talk) 01:25, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't understand how it is a personal attack, I'm not sure anyone can explain it to you. Herostratus (talk) 01:33, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the point of a redirect to CORRECT a query?Victor Grigas (talk) 01:40, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's another page that I can't find where there is a discussion about these types of redirects, but I can't find it immediately, but the consensus there is that if the phrase is determined to be one that is likely a search term, even if the phrase is demeaning to a BLP, a redirect to where the phrase is discussed in the parent article is reasonable. That said, this phase does not appear to have that type of notability/importance, its just a repeated phrase on several signs, and has no meaning beyond that vugarity and thus we should not have that redirect. --MASEM (t) 01:53, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the clarification! I'd love to see the discussion if you can find it. I did have two sources that referenced the signage in the talk page link above (Vice news, Colorado Independent) if lends to any notability. Question - is there a threshold for notability of protest signage/verbage? This one comes to mind as a notable one: The whole world is watching Victor Grigas (talk) 02:11, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is a list of stupic redirects at ANI. If I were Jimbo, anyone arguing to keep these time-wasters would, after a warning, be indeffed. It's obviously a case of not understanding the purpose of an encyclopedia, or wanting to exploit Wikipedia to make some kind of point. The political advocacy redirects should be deleted. On the specific issue in this thread, any reader hoping to find encyclopedic information when searching for "Fuck Trump" is beyond help. Johnuniq (talk) 02:06, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

At this point from the news stories, yes, I agree that the phrase has no intrinsic special meaning that we would include a redirect for it, and I can't think of any other current existing case where a protest sign phrase is beyond just being a "hateful" phrase, but I would not dismiss the possibly that a hateful phrase used across many protest signs surpasses the WP:NEO test and almost itself becomes notable that a redirect, regardless of the BLP, would become appropriate. This is just not the case for it right now. --MASEM (t) 02:19, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the thoughtful clarification, thank you! Victor Grigas (talk) 02:28, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rfc on upgrading the NAC essay to a guideline

Interested editors can comment on the Deletion process talk page. Thanks. Lourdes 05:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the copyright license described in two different ways?

Recently there was a discussion on meta at meta:Terms of use/Creative Commons 4.0 about updating the Wikimedia Foundation Terms of Use for Wikimedia projects to use the updated version of the Creative Commons license, 4.0 instead of 3.0 as currently used.

While reading up on that I noticed that English Wikipedia uses two different descriptions of the copyright license. Anyone contributing to Wikipedia has to "irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL". To see this text, go to any place on Wikipedia, click edit or edit source at the top of the screen, then scroll to the bottom above the "save" button. There actually are two text editors - one with source code and one that is WYSIWYG, but both of them prominently feature this text.

The second place is at the bottom of every Wikipedia article. This is much more prominent, because whereas the other place is seen by editors, this place is seen by everyone. Scroll to the bottom of any Wikipedia article and see where it says, "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply."

I find it surprising that there is one sort of text to which editors agree when they make submissions, but another text is presented on all pages for readers. Presumably since everything readers access went through the submission process, the two places should have matching text. However, the reader space only notes the CC license, whereas the submission space requires agreement to dual licensing. I do not know how or why these texts came to be different.

Wikipedia has used the dual licensing system of "Creative Commons plus GNU Free Documentation License" for a long time and I wonder how it came to be that the GFDL license is not presented to Wikipedia readers, whereas the CC license is. Does anyone have any insight on how this came to be? This might be a bigger issue than English Wikipedia but I thought I would ask here first. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:53, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Everything on Wikipedia is available under CC-BY-SA, but not all of it is available under the GFDL. If you want to add some text copied from elsewhere which is available under CC-BY-SA but not under the GFDL then that is absolutely fine, as long as you mark it as such. You can't add GFDL-only material unless it was added to Wikipedia prior to the introduction of CC-BY-SA. CC-BY-SA is definitely our preferred licence and is more suitable for our type of content, I expect that's why it's the only one shown to readers. GFDL is essentially there for historical reasons. Hut 8.5 11:03, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Climate Change Deniers

I noted a discussion about the removal of category of climate denier for people who reject the scientific consensus of climate change. I think it's a pretty accurate term. Is there any way to re-instate it?

I think wikipedia is less for not having the category. --Skinnytony1 (talk) 10:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree in that the close of that CfD did not match the consensus, and the CfD was closed, and the category deleted, by an admin who was subsequently (a year later) desysopped and indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia. There were 21 !votes to retain the category as is, and only 13 !votes to delete. So it should have been closed as "keep as is" or "no consensus". Softlavender (talk) 10:43, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a useful category, would it be possible to recover the lost category tags? However, I wonder if this discussion is in the right location as I'm not clear how it relates to policy. Is there a better location to discuss reinstating a category? DIY Editor (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The person who closed it may be kicked out of the project, but he did give some reasons for his decision. The basic thrust was that "climate change denier" is pejorative. Per WP:BLP we are cautious about pejorative categories. If BLP is truly in play votes don't necessarily much matter. BLP trumps.

We do have pejorative categories though: Category:Serial killers for instance, although we have to be careful about who we put into these categories, which makes them more work to maintain. Is "climate change denier" pejorative? If it is, is it worthwhile having it anyway? These are two questions that would be settled by a WP:DRV. Before going there, is there a category name that could be less pejorative, I wonder? Herostratus (talk) 21:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Herostratus: perhaps "People who don't believe in Climate Change" (its a bit long). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:04, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A question: is the underlying concern really about the appropriateness of the title of the category... or is it about how to appropriately populate the category? (i.e. labeling people as "deniers" who perhaps should not be labeled as such). Would the category be less controversial if it had a clearer definition? Blueboar (talk) 00:21, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The US National Centre for Science Education has a pretty good definition of “climate change denier,” note they say that it isn't pejorative:

"Recognizing that no terminological choice is entirely unproblematic, NCSE — in common with a number of scholarly and journalistic observers of the social controversies surrounding climate change — opts to use the terms “climate changer deniers” and “climate change denial” (where “denial” encompasses unwarranted doubt as well as outright rejection). The terms are intended descriptively, not in any pejorative sense, and are used for the sake of brevity and consistency with a well-established usage in the scholarly and journalistic literature."

I'd like to see it back and don't see it as pejorative just accurate use of language....sorry to start this discussion here DIY Editor, I'm new to these parts of wikipedia. Can you suggest where to go to discuss further etc or take action... Skinnytony1 (talk) 12:24, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is that it is a BLP problem - it's a contentious label, and unless a person has self-identified themselves as a CCD (which happens but very infrequently), classifying a person into this category is against BLP. --MASEM (t) 13:27, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So... would the category be considered appropriate if inclusion was limited to only those few who self-identify with the term? Blueboar (talk) 19:57, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, isn't the problem hidden in the word "unwarranted" in the NCSE definition? Categorizing someone as a CCD involves the judgement that their divergence from consensus is indeed unwarranted. It is, if nothing else, logically possible that divergent hypotheses may contain elements that are true, and thus the divergence is to the same digree not unwarranted. IOW, CCDs in the NCSE sense is merely a subset of people who have divergent views; which might perhaps have its own name, like "Divergent Views", "Non-Consensus Views", or whatever is appropriate (a category which might actually be empty, too). As soon as the judegement that some persons divergence from consensus is indeed unwarranted is confirmed as correct - and I would not want to pronounce on how one goes about to ensure that, or who gets to do that (as a reliable source) or if Wikipedia should do it at all - there is IMO nothing wrong in calling people CCDs, because then the possible pejorative slur is backed by appropriate evidence that their views are e.g. unscientific or whatever. Being labeled as such is perhaps not nice, but the label would then be truthful; as in the "serial killer" example. T 85.166.160.7 (talk) 16:30, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]