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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 116.75.82.151 (talk) at 18:29, 17 March 2017 (→‎The Tamil Map: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Featured articleTamil language is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 14, 2005.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 14, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
February 25, 2005Featured article candidatePromoted
May 1, 2007Featured article reviewKept
Current status: Featured article

Tamil in Caribbean

People of Indian Origin ( PIO) were brought by British to Caribbean as indented labor. The first in Guyana arrived on may 5th 1838 and in Trinidad on May 30th 1845. These days are public holidays celebrated as Arrival Day. Trinidad along with Guyana and Suriname has bulk of Caribbean PIOs. The first batches of ships left Calcutta and most of the labor came from Easter UP, Bihar and to lesser extent from Bengal. These regions had plenty of poor labors worked in Agriculture fields. The later ships left from various ports including Madras now known as Chennai, the capital city of Tamil Nadu. Tamil labors tried to stay together in the English farms on the earlier days in Caribbean and maintained their culture and identity. The lost their identity in course of time due to their relative small numbers. One can see the influence of Tamil food in Caribbean curries. Food in Trinidad does not have much in common with Bojpuri or Mithili people of Bihar but have striking resemblance to Tamil Nadu curries. Present day PIOs in Caribbean are rediscovering themselves due to improved communication and travel and local political climate. They identify themselves as single group of people from India's Hindi belt.

Tamil in Gujarat:

Surat Tamil Sangam : surattamilsangam.org/


Ahmedabad Tamil Sangam Express News article : http://www.indianexpress.com/news/tamil-sangam-trying-hard-to-keep-language-a/633385/

Lost sounds of old Tamil

The discussion should put light on pronunciation of following sounds 'ங்','ஞ்','ண்','ந்' (and even 'ழ')which is lost its prominence in modern spoken Tamil. But it is good to be informed that the sounds 'ந்'and 'ன்'; 'ற்'and 'ர்';'ல்' and 'ள்' are different and is still strictly preserved and spoken in Malayalam along with the above mentioned sounds, as it retains its old-Tamil pronunciation.

In Malayalam, 'ந்' is Dental( nasal sound 'n' in the group of 'த') where 'ன்' is Alveolar (nasal sound 'n' in the group of English "t)

'ற்' is hard 'r'(Alveolar) or say 'rr' while 'ர்' is soft 'r'(Dental)(with a slight 'j' in it ) say 'jr'


'ல்' is Dental ( 'l' with a straight tongue, where top of tongue touches upper mouth) and 'ள்' a Retroflex ( 'l' with a curved tongue, where bottom of tongue touches upper mouth)

Using transliteration template- ISO- word -Tamil-with diacritics

Regarding edit for adding word -Tamiḻ -with diacritics using transliteration-ta-ISO template, permanent link, diff from previous. Copied from talk page here, and edited for clarity, by user 2know4power (talk) 06:21, 11 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]

(To User:2know4power), I have undid them (edit's permanent link, diff from previous) because they are causing some problems i dont know how to fix it but i undid it in order to fix the issue in Google Chrome Flow 234 (Nina) talk 12:04, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(To User:2know4power), I was going to make a similar reversion myself. I appreciate your desire to have more accurate transliterations, but I think in this particular case your edits violate Wikipedia policy, in particular MOS:DIACRITICS ("if there is a common English form of the name […] use that form instead"), MOS:PN ("Wikipedia normally retains […] special characters, except where there is a well-established English spelling that replaces them with English standard letters"), and MOS:FOREIGNITALIC ("A proper name is usually not italicized when it is used"). If you disagree it would probably be best to raise the issue in project space. IgnorantArmies (talk) 12:10, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello IgnorantArmies, I had a persistent doubt as to why it was not done previously. I should have checked MOS style first. Well, the time spent in doing it 'case by case basis' is now lost without any good use. I had looked at IAST used in article Śruti and thought it a good idea. I will go & consult the MOS. Thanks, by contributor 2know4power (talk) 06:52, 11 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Hello Flow234,
Regarding your reverting my edits by revert 1 'intro section1', revert 2 'intro section2',( as pointed out by user-IgnorantArmies applicable under 'MOS:DIACRITICS ("if there is a common English form of the name […] use that form instead" in the whole article) is/ are: revert 3). Revert 4(that original edit was for removing inappropriate, incorrect use of IAST(Sanskrit) template for Tamil words. Because of your reverting that edit, IAST is now back with Tamil words).
  1. Your edit summary was,"the ISO is causing problems for users without the ISO charterers so i have removed them". You have also written "issue in Google Chrome", do you mean Chrome browser or Chrome OS? Could you please say what the issue(s) is/are? A specific description might help towards resolving it.
  2. The article now has template 'contains Indic text', needs rendering support for Indic, Brahmi scripts.
  3. Google Chrome internet browser in Windows 10 seems to working fine in my PC, to display diacritics for transliteration to Latin script. For you, does it work in another internet browser like Firefox? Could you please check if there is the same problem in other WP webpages too? You seem to say your problem was avoided by not using translit-tamil-ISO template, but those pages already had that template and they do have it now. IAST template seems to transclude this translit template & these pages had it then & have it now too.
  4. Latin script with diacritics seems to be available from Windows XP onwards according to Unicode input#Selection from a screen. For required fonts, please see ISO 15919#Font support. I found this rendering issue Help:IPA#Rendering issues, but it is about IPA characters.
  5. Also see Help:Multilingual support (Indic) (and may be the talk page at Template:Transl, I checked there, does not seem to have anything about any problem with displaying Latin script with diacritics in Chrome browser).
  6. Please see mw:Compatibility#Browsers and list of known issues at Wikipedia:Browser notes. For reporting a bug to do with Wikipedia's interaction with a browser, see Wikipedia:bug reports.
Thanks, by contributor 2know4power (talk) 06:52, 11 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Hello IgnorantArmies, If you could kindly spare your time, could you please help to sort this, possible technical problem with the translit template.
User-Flow234 (contributions) is unavailable for reply to this, but working in other areas, Special:Contributions/Flow234. I left a courteous note at their talkpage here. The introduction sections here are very useful and they may be added back. (revert 1 'intro section1', revert 2 'intro section2'). Looks like Flow234 has used Twinkle's rollback to reverse my other useful edits (they were consecutive edits with descriptive edit summaries here). And other reverts by flow234 which are not under MOS:DIACRITICS, which reversed the correction for mistakes, so mistakes are back now. (Revert 4(that original edit was for removing inappropriate, incorrect use of IAST(Sanskrit) template for Tamil words. Because of Flow234 reverting that edit, IAST is now back with Tamil words).)
Do you happen to know anything about 'Google Chrome issues' with ISO translit template? It looks like 'lack of appropriate fonts' (as said by Flow234 in edit summary,"the ISO is causing problems for users without the ISO charterers so i have removed them".). Since User-Flow234 (contributions) is not replying, Could you suggest what can be done about the technical aspects, the future use of this translit template (using it to tag appropriately)? Thanks in advance for your help. By contributor, 2know4power (talk) 22:02, 21 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Hi 2know4power, I don't think there is anything wrong with your other edits – my only objection was with the specific change from Tamil to Tamiḻ. If you don't hear back from Flow234, you could probably restore that part of your edit. Regarding the apparent problem with Google Chrome, I'm afraid I don't know much about technical issues with scripts. (I'm using Chrome myself, and I haven't had any problems). You could try asking at WP:VP/T to see if anyone can duplicate the problem, or there might even be a more specific noticeboard somewhere. IgnorantArmies (talk) 12:15, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tamil

please change ((Tamil)) to Tamil — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:541:4305:C70:8CEF:ED2C:BFCF:2D15 (talk • contribs)

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 15:58, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Anglicisation of Tamil

This is a continuation of anglicisation of Tamil recent talkpage note, copied here for continuity's sake. Regd: permanent link with image . This article has a large image (400px), File:Saravana Bhavan.JPG attached to it, with note (image caption) reading "Anglicisation noted in Edison, New Jersey, U.S. on one of the most popular overseas branches of Chennai-based Saravanaa Bhavan, the world's largest Indian vegetarian restaurant chain. Tamil script is displayed as an adjunct translation of the English spelling."

  1. This reads like promotional material.
  2. This appears to be not very relevant to the article "Tamil language" & this section's photo gallery.
  3. This article " Tamil language" has featured article status, shown by a star on the top right hand corner on the article's page & seen as its template within wikiEd box.(FA also includes good article status). This image may detract from it.

So per guidelines, WP:PROMOTION, Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight, this image permanent link with image may need to be removed from this article. Thanks, User 2know4power (talk) 12:58, 8 January 2017 (UTC).

Hello User:Castncoot, Thanks for all of your contributions to Wikipedia. Your hard work for 19,000+edits make Wikipedia great. Regarding your contribution to article Tamil language,in the spirit of working together & trying to build consensus:
New content here:
I recently found the tool 'wikiblame' at article's revision history page which helps to find out who contributed what.
The concerns about this image caption are:
  • 4. What I meant in point 2 above was, for article Tamil language, a hotel's business success is not very relevant. I should have been more clearer. The photo size was large (400px) & not in the section's very relevant gallery with foreign currency notes having Tamil script, as smaller pictures.
  • 5. Translation is transferring word meaning form one language to another, but the words in those languages will be different. Transliteration is same word 'sound', but in different writing systems. Here the word 'sound' "Saravana Bhavan" is nearly same in both words. They are not words from different languages. It is transliteration from Tamil to English, not translation from English to Tamil as stated by User:Castncoot.
  • 6. Per article anglicization, the change is not minor but more drastic. Here an extra 'a' at the end of first word (English 'Saravanaa Bhavan' Vs Tamil's 'Saravana Bhavan') may not be a good example of it. Thiruvallikkeni to Triplicane seems to be good one. Image- Anglicisation of Thiruvallikkeni to Triplicane can be attached to the article.
So, because of all these concerns File:Saravana_Bhavan.JPG may need to be removed from this article. Thanks, by user 2know4power (talk) 05:08, 17 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Do you not agree, however, that the Tamil and English script juxtaposed upon a foreign business, moreover at such a prominent location, is constructive (and difficult to replicate as a form of anglicisation)? Yes, it is a larger image, but it constructs, rather than detracting, in my opinion. I also don't believe that there's a POV issue simply because this chain is so large to beign with, that it definitely adds WP:NOTABILITY. Castncoot (talk) 21:46, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Castncoot, it is already given above, in point 6 (per article anglicization, primarily it is not a good example of it, probably not at all.) and in point 4 and 2 (a hotel's business success is not very relevant to this article Tamil language as an image caption, although it is definitely relevant to its own article page. This image is there, I think. May be adding it there as its image caption is a good idea). And about point 4, considering the lay out of the whole article, a smaller cropped picture (Vs a large 400px) showing just the nameboard in this case, would be thought to be adequate. Since a particular item's relative importance & the whole article's space limitations need to be considered. Thanks, by contributor ::2know4power (talk) 23:36, 19 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Hello 2know4power, perhaps great minds think alike. I was thinking the same thing, namely a very focused cropped image. Would you be game for that? I'm still finding out how to crop. Best, Castncoot (talk) 04:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Castncoot, you seem to be very much attached to this commercial establishment Saravana_Bhavan. That would be point 1 as given above. Your posting this image of 400px size was point 1 above. Saravana_Bhavan is not very relevant to this article. You are discovering new meaning, definitely not conveyed by me. I have clearly said about its unattachment from this article. Again, your image caption may be added to image at its own article page Saravana_Bhavan. Thanks, 2know4power (talk) 07:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
No, not to the establishment, but rather just to a constructive addition, such as now. Castncoot (talk) 22:55, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Naming the correct script type

copied from User talk:2know4power#Please be careful before editing. by user 2know4power (talk) 05:59, 21 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]

Hi 2know4power,

I have corrected a few incorrect edits of yours recently, and I would like to advise you to please check your sources and ensure that the information you add is correct. To me, as someone who can read multiple modern & historical South Indian scripts, I can tell apart Grantha, Vatteluttu, and Tamil, but there is a lot of misinformation out there, and you have to make sure that you grab information from reliable sources. The scripts are not the same/interchangeable. If you don't know whether something is in Grantha script or Tamil script or Vatteluttu script, it's better not to add anything than to add incorrect information. Or even better is to ask a member of the community who is knowledgeable, either through their talk page or through the page's talk page. I would appreciate you taking these steps in the future so as to reduce misinformation on any of these pages, even if you have the best & noblest interests at hand when you contribute edits. Thank you! Subbupedia95 (talk) 05:25, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Subbupedia95, Thanks for your contributions and good, kind advice. They were good faith edits and I do not know to read those old scripts. I went by the title for this image palm leaf manuscript. The file is used in many projects, so may be changing the filename is not a good option. So, I added in file description at Commons. Thanjavur inscription image had caption as Grantha in article Grantha script.Thanks for your edit Grantha or Vatteluttu 1 and Grantha or Vatteluttu 2 . If you could kindly spare your time, could you please take a look at relevant commons category itself & may be change them at source at commons itself to stop the unintentional misinformation from contaminating more articles.Thanks in advance for your help, 2know4power (talk) 05:59, 21 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
It's ok! I know; I would have marked them as good faith edits, actually, but I don't know how to. I'll fix the source when I get a chance; thanks for letting me know. Subbupedia95 (talk) 04:40, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Subbupedia95, Thanks for your reply. The categories in commons are given below. The search box in commons has a feature called 'advanced' to search for category itself rather than a filename or add prefix Category: in the search box.
Just for information's sake, I don't think there is a way to mark an edit as a 'good faith one' either by the contributing editor themselves or the other editors. An useful edit with descriptive & concise edit summary, with (reliable) source citation is a 'good faith one', I suppose. Thanks for your conributions, by 2know4power (talk) 05:31, 22 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Hello Subbupedia95, Could you please say if images from c:Category:Grantha_inscriptions be attached to this article. Thanks in advance for your help. 2know4power (talk) 10:43, 22 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Ok, fixed everything! There were 2-3 mistakes; it looks good now. Thanks for apprising me of all of these pages - I didn't know about these. Best of luck! Subbupedia95 (talk) 20:34, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And on the "good faith edit" thing, I did have someone mark one of my edits as a good faith edit before, and that's how I became aware of it. I'm not sure how he/she did it. I think if you go to the Dennis Rodman page and look at my first edit there, it was marked as a "good faith" edit. You can perhaps ask that guy how he did it. (1 November 2016). Subbupedia95 (talk) 20:36, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Subbupedia95, Thanks for your special expertise in reading these ancient scripts. For AGF, may be it is Twinkle gadget's rollback function Wikipedia:Twinkle/doc#Restore and rollback, one of which has AGF label (Assume good faith). (It also says while using Twinkle rollback, we need to be very careful as,"Any of these will revert all consecutive edits by the same editor immediately preceding the new version"). Thanks, by 2know4power (talk) 00:01, 23 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Hello Subbupedia95,Regarding w:Pallava_alphabet, could you please take a look from this c:Category:Kanchi_Kailasanathar_Temple, these files which have writings, now at new subcategory c:Category:Inscriptions_at_Kanchi_Kailasanathar_temple
Thanks in advance, by 2know4power (talk) 00:53, 23 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Just fixed these as well. First one is definitely Pallava, last two are definitely Vatteluttu. The second one seems to be Tamil, in fact, because it looks a lot later than Vatteluttu. It seems to have a few Grantha characters mixed in here and there, as was the style for writing Sanskrit loanwords in Tamil at the time. Some of the language seems to be Sanskrit, but it's most certainly predominantly in pre-colonial Tamil script. Subbupedia95 (talk) 02:59, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Subbupedia95, Regarding w:Pallava_alphabet, may be you could determine if the language in c:File:India - Kanchipuram - 020 (2243370563).jpg is Tamil, so that it can be attached to relevant articles in WP. Thanks, 2know4power (talk) 04:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Hello Subbupedia95, In c:Category:Tamil_inscriptions_in_Sri_Lanka, there is this
Polanaruwa file and c:File:Koneswaram_inscription_Pandyan_era.jpg, after determining may be their script, they can be put up in their respective WP articles for Tamil people. Thanks, 2know4power (talk) 05:21, 23 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Hello Subbupedia95, This c:File:Dravidian_Script_-_Tamil_Style_Inscription.jpg description says 'Dravidian Script - Tamil Style Inscription Taken in Ankor Wat Temple Cambodia'.Thanks, 2know4power (talk) 04:59, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello 2know4power, on the Kanchipuram one I have no idea - far too few characters. Polonaruwa inscription is really interesting; it is Vatteluttu + Grantha for Sanskrit words, as was a common style historically. The Koneswaram inscription looks like Tamil script (which makes sense as well, given it's from the late Pandyan era). The Angkor Wat one, again, I have no idea. I doubt it is in Tamil; it is likely a Pallava inscription in the local language with a lot of Sanskrit, but I really have no idea. Subbupedia95 (talk) 15:23, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Subbupedia95, You are awarded a 'Rosetta barnstar' at your talkpage here. Thanks for your special language expertise in tagging categories for images at commons (Use for Commons and c:Commons:FAQ ) by identifying the ancient script types (Vatteluttu, Grantha, Pallava, Tamil script) and the languages they were for (Tamil language, Sanskrit). Best wishes, 2know4power (talk) 18:58, 23 February 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Wow! Thank you so much! I've never gotten one of these before; I'm glad to have helped. :) Thank you for pointing me towards all of these! Subbupedia95 (talk) 21:03, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2017

42.111.135.27 (talk) 11:19, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 11:57, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Tamil Map

Is the Tamil map showing about where Tamil is native to or is it a map representing the Tamil diaspora and where there are significant population of tamils? Because if the map is about the distribution of Tamils across asia/world then please include Malaysia and highlight Peninsular Malaysia in light blue.

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