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Talk:Jose Antonio Vargas

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by NaturalEquality (talk | contribs) at 09:44, 14 July 2017. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Nationality?

Can someone explain how adding Vargas' nationality breaks the rules? Bbb23 claims that there was consensus to not include his nationality, but when I asked him to point it out, he childishly refused. I dug around on the talk page's history and archives and only found some discussion of it in 2013 (which was at that time, oddly enough, "Filipino-American"). Even if there was, consensus can change. But there doesn't seem to be any on his nationality. This user's only reason for reverting my edit was calling it a "biased change" (Is it a rule that editors can't make "biased changes" even if they're truthful? Show me that rule if it exists.) and he just didn't like it. So what is wrong with calling him Filipino since he is? THE DIAZ talk • contribs 15:41, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My guess is that no-one is likely to engage with you if you pretend not to be aware of the reasons not to do this. You likely won't like the reasons -- that's your right -- but insisting that someone explain to you what is perfectly obvious isn't a promising strategy for discussion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:58, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Nomoskedasticity: Then explain what is so "perfectly obvious". THE DIAZ talk • contribs 16:21, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please do some research - you might read the article for starters. Nomoskedasticity is entirely correct, and I'm not going to explain this further either. (There was more than one discussion about this, fyi.) Please remember this is a BLP and subject to rules and practices regarding them. And by the way, I believe WP:5P2 speaks to your disingenuous question about biased edits. Tvoz/talk 23:17, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tvoz: What?! How hard is it to get a straight answer around here?! I believe you may have misheard me. Bbb23 said that I can't make any changes because I am biased. MOS:BLPLEAD says that the lead paragraph should include his nationality. I can even back that up with reliable sources. His desired nationality has no effect on his legal nationality. Find me a rule that says that we can't include the nationality of illegal immigrants or any consensus at all. Because frankly, I've only gotten really stupid answers so far. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 05:30, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[moving this to the article talk page from my talk page where it did not belong.]

Well, I've spent a lot of time digging around for any sort of consensus relating to his nationality, but I've found nothing. Please stop beating around the bush. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 13:57, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As you've already been told by other editors, you appear to be trying to make a political point under the guise of "neutrality". Not going to work and I am not going to debate with you about this, as I said. And your rude comments aren't helping. BLPs endeavor to describe subjects in a manner consistent with how they describe themselves, especially when this is backed up by reliable, neutral sources. If you have done any reading whatsoever about the subject of this BLP, including but not at all limited to our article - indeed, dozens, hundreds or even more pieces written about him in major mainstream reliable media outlets and many, many tv appearances and even regarding his testimony at a Congressional committee hearing- you'd know that how one defines nationality is the central matter. We have appropriately chosen to not take a political stand here, omitting boiling down "nationality" to one word, and instead describing in words his complex identity: "Born in the Philippines and raised in the United States from the age of twelve", thus for the most part avoiding contentious arguments with people who are determined to get their political viewpoint into what should be a neutral biography. We do the very same thing in many articles, for example, Bee Gees, where arguments and edit wars over whether to describe them as English, British, Manx, Australian (or even American) were settled with this: "Born on the Isle of Man to English parents, the Gibb brothers lived in Chorlton, Manchester, England, until the late 1950s where they formed the Rattlesnakes. The family then moved to Redcliffe, in Queensland, Australia, and then to Cribb Island." And this not even in the first paragraph of the intro. Finally, and I mean finally, because I think you already know all of this but are pretending with comments like "I just want everything to be neutral like it should be" - the BLP MOS has no requirement for nationality - those are guidelines that are always subject to interpretation. Please stop this. Tvoz/talk 22:48, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Tvoz: "BLPs endeavor to describe subjects in a manner consistent with how they describe themselves." Is that an actual rule? Because I'd actually love to see it. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 18:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be obsessed with "rules", but that's not how it works here. There are policies and there are guidelines and there are suggestions and there is IAR. I've already explained why we do what we're doing in this article, as have others. And look up the definition of endeavor if you don't understand it. Stop it. Tvoz/talk 06:35, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

On nationality in the first line, there certainly seems to be an agenda by Wikipedia people watching this page. He is Filipino. It's that simple. He may gain US citizenship eventually but at this point that is what he would be prior to receiving official status. Even people with Green Cards are not called Americans until they officially take an oath. Nationality status is not something chosen by an individual. As one person posting mentioned, this is quite obvious and 'Filipino' should be in that first line. If Wikipedia is going to allow people to apply their socio-political agendas on these boards, there really is a lot that can change on pretty much ever single page. Wikipedia should be only about facts, not preferences. NaturalEquality (talk) 09:44, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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