This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Record Production; a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's documentation of Record Production articles. Questions or comments related to record production and related articles are welcome at the project's talk page. Anyone interested may join the project: add your name to the list of project members!Record ProductionWikipedia:WikiProject Record ProductionTemplate:WikiProject Record ProductionRecord Production articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rock music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Rock music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Rock musicWikipedia:WikiProject Rock musicTemplate:WikiProject Rock musicRock music articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pop music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to pop music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Pop musicWikipedia:WikiProject Pop musicTemplate:WikiProject Pop musicPop music articles
On the page currently, Bowie's years active are "1962–2009 2013-2016", the rationale being Bowie's last film role was in 2009, and 2013 was when he released a new album, The Next Day. However, The Next Day was in the pipeline for two years - recording began in 2011 - so making his years active only resume in 2013 seems to be incorrect. I know Bowie had a break from the public eye for around a decade leading up to its release, but wouldn't it be better to list years active as "1962 - 2016"?
1987 Rape Allegation
The 1987 rape allegation that was dismissed due to lack of evidence, should be included in his personal life, there are reliable sources readily available from that time to cite. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassidd (talk • contribs) 14:03, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree it looks to be some bias. People have to accept that their heros aren't always great people despite being talented — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul2123 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 27 March 2020 (UTC) — Paul2123 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Allegations are for your blog but not for an encyclopedia. BTW creating socks is not the way to go on this MarnetteD|Talk 15:48, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, however this isn't a blog but from a newspapers archive - notice the date of the reference — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassidd (talk • contribs) 15:55, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The allegation is briefly mentioned in the article for the Glass Spider Tour, giving it the weight and context it deserves, but putting something like this (essentially an unproven, dismissed allegation) in an article the way you proposed gives it undue weight, and frankly casts your ability to remain neutral in serious doubt. Go away, troll 87Fan (talk) 16:00, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from name calling! The allegation is a serious offence that deserves to be in his personal life section, even if it was dismissed. It provides another insight into who Bowie was, from the extremely talented artist to a flawed individual (take note of the illegal drug use, and the fascist comments). The culture we live in today has put more emphasis on these allegations, and following suit from other pages, this piece of Bowie history should not so easily be disregarded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassidd (talk • contribs) 16:12, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sign your posts. This unproven and legally dismissed allegation gives NO insight into who David Bowie was. At best, it's a demonstration of the price of being a celebrity, and even so is still not worthy of inclusion in this article. 87Fan (talk) 17:03, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Discography
Why isn't there a discography section that includes all his studio albums? Most other artists I see on WP have that so why not Bowie? – zmbro(talk) 16:42, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Zmbro: I agree. I re-added his discography for now because I wasn't aware of the discussion that happened back in January. We should at the very least include a discography section but instead of listing all of his studio album, we just put the link to his discography page. Even then, I still think it would be better to list all of his studio albums just like every other singer/musician article. I don't get what the problem is. Not having the discography section will just cause confusion and edit wars. Plus it goes against Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines. Here it states, "These articles should follow the guidelines given by WikiProject Discographies. The discography section of the musician's primary article should link to the separate discography article..the discography section of the musician's primary article should also provide a summary of the musician's major works. In most cases this is done using a simple list of their studio albums, leaving a complete listing of releases to the discography article." Tagging @MarnetteD:Bowling is life (talk) 02:01, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also wheres the "consensus" saying that their can't be a discography section for this article. There doesn't seem to be a consensus from the archived discussion from January. Even with WP:OTHERSTUFF in mind, there is no good reason not to include his discography. We should at the very least include a discography section but instead of listing all of his studio albums, we just put the link to his discography page. That way, readers can access his discography easier. Bowling is life (talk) 02:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bowling is life I agree where's the consensus? All I saw in the archived page was 3 editors and a random IP arguing about it. Plus, what's the big deal with having it? It's helpful to readers to have all the studio albums in one spot, and if that's the case with every other artist on this entire site, why can't it be for Bowie? – zmbro(talk) 22:22, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think consensus currently lies in the consistent rejection of such a discography here, since Cassianto effectively tagged it as unsourced and removed it (and the Filmography section) on 21 January.[1][2][3][4] On the same day, Cassianto tagged the Concert tours section as unsourced,[5] and it was removed the next day (!) by PD Rivers.[6] None of those things has since returned successfully, and, while the issue of a discography was raised here in January, as previously noted,[7] there was also a brief discussion about the Filmography section.[8] However, I think it's probably better that a consensus be formed here by discussion, if possible, rather than inferred from edits to the article.
I think the argument that we cannot have an unsourced section is inescapable. But that is not the only argument. Also valid, I think, is the argument that, since the article David Bowie discography exists, there is no need for a "mini discography" here – while it would duplicate tabulated information presented better elsewhere, it would also duplicate information already presented here, in prose, in the Music career section. As Cassianto said, where do you draw the line?[9][10] If it's "helpful to readers to have all the studio albums in one spot", clearly that spot should be the discography article, not here. The prospect of edit wars is also raised, above: I think a mini discography here could be a running sore, compared to simple disagreement over whether or not there should be one. So, I'm convinced by those two arguments.
Given the foregoing, I find the recommendations at Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines frankly bizarre, and note that MOS:DISCOGRAPHY supports that approach. That something may be amiss is suggested by the fact that the same WikiProject says, "[i]f a musician has released an extremely large number of albums, it may be better to describe their discography in a prose summary", and goes on to give Tangerine Dream#Discography as an example. However, when you follow that link, you're presented with a section enumerating 164 albums, with no prose, and not a reference in sight. Something somewhere needs updating, but I don't have the motivation or stamina for that. For now, I agree with the WikiProject's preference for prose, which is what we have in the present article at the time of writing.
Regarding the idea that other articles have a Discography section, so why not this one, I've had a look at the examples of other articles with discography sections that were given in the discussion that occurred in January, and they're not great.[11] At Bob Dylan, the section is a wholly unreferenced list, with no prose; and the great age of its FA status undermines its usefulness.[12]The Rolling Stones presents the same format but for a single sentence of prose that might fit better in an explanatory footnote (efn); but it is only a GA, albeit a fairly recent one: the issue of an unreferenced Discography section is not addressed in the GA review, maybe because it wasn't seen as an issue by those involved.[13] It was nominated by Ritchie333, who might (or might not) be inclined to contribute here. Likewise, The Beatles presents a wholly unreferenced section, with minimal prose that again might fit better in an efn; and that article is also a pretty ancient FA.[14]
I don't intend to trawl all articles in WP that have discography sections, but that sample gives me no reason to change my view. Besides, even if there are heaps of other articles with such sections, that doesn't require that this article conform, especially if, as I see it, doing so would impair the article's quality. Regarding the WikiProject and the MoS, I'd invoke WP:IAR. So, I support the absence of a Discography section in this article, as at the time of writing.[15] By extension, I also support the absence of a Filmography section, given the presence in the article of a link to David Bowie filmography; and the absence of a Concert tour section, since the tours receive extensive coverage in the article's prose, and they are listed in the "David Bowie" template at the bottom of the page. Having said all that, I'm pretty much out of stamina, for various reasons not limited to the present, global pandemic, so my further involvement here might be limited. But you never know. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 11:37, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
