Talk:Lana Del Rey

New photo

I think that this photo (recently uploaded to the Commons) would make a great, newer infobox photo. Thoughts? --Drown Soda (talk) 21:26, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, this is a good infobox photo. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 04:31, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree. I was looking at the same picture on Google Image a minute ago. I think it's a fair depiction of her current image. It is recent enough and under a Creative Commons License. Why not use it? It shows her style evolution, and her looks on this photograph are more consistent with the esthetic she currently puts forth. Of course, before making any substitution, it needs to undergo the vetting process. But I assuredly think people should start expressing themselves on the matter to see if we can get to a consensus.AleXMetz^{❯❯❯Reach me!} 23:00, 8 May 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandrelussier (talk • contribs)

Anti-Semitism

I think her boycott of Israel should be included in the "Social Views" section.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Weeslifts (talk • contribs) 13:35, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

We have this thing called neutrality. It is not “anti-Semitic” that she said she wanted to perform in both Palestine and Israel but couldn’t, so she backed out. It is not her duty to wade into international geopolitics anyway, it’s her duty to perform for her fans. If they won’t let her then, oh well. ⌚️ (talk) 13:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

I very strongly agree that being pro-Palestinian is not anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic, or anti-Jewish, but she isn't even pro-Palestinian as much as strictly neutral. To see that position being called anti-Semitic is abhorrent. EllenCT (talk) 03:32, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

As has been said above, supporting Palestine is not anti-Semitic, and it is unacceptable to imply that it is. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 04:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

I concur. These assumptions are so disingenuous. To be fair, she merely became one among numerous entertainers who suffered some form of disapprobation or backlash tied to some performance on Israel soil. Making such gratuitous allegations is in itself a proof of partiality. I'm disconcerted by how belligerent this contrived rhetoric is. I think it's pretty safe to admit that in that whole narrative, she bears little to none responsibility. In that regard, she dealt with the situation perfectly.

A lot of media pointed out that diverse political groups had weaponized Del Rey's performance to the festival. As one journalist pointed out, Israel is well aware that having celebrities visit and perform in their country can help improve the way they are perceived across the world. On one hand, this makes them look more "normal" and gives the impression their actions are more legitimate and justified. On the other hand, it ties them with the Western World, a bond they use as a demonstration of strength and superiority toward their neighboring countries. Within the Middle-East, it sets them apart from other countries that are left out of almost every international tour itinerary. It's not something they use explicitly, but they're still showing off the fact they are being favored using it as a reminder that they are not all the same.

So when Del Rey announced her participation in the Festival, it was great news for Israel, who used that to boaster. Then, the controversy arose, which led Del Rey to retract. At this point, Israel swiftly changes the narrative and starts to complain about alleged antisemitism. We've seen it times and times again.

Del Rey's decision was not heinous or antisemite in the slightest way. She did not take a stance or supported neither group or ideology. She merely stood out for her values, something she is entirely entitled to do and should do. Through it all, she remained very apolitical. That said, I believe it's an important story and it should appear on her Wikipedia page. I am not entirely sure that the "Social Views" section is the right one, since it does not tell much about the way she sees the world, but it is relevant enough to be included on the page, for sure.AleXMetz^{❯❯❯Reach me!} 22:50, 19 May 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandrelussier (talk • contribs)

Filmography before Discography?

Why is the Filmography section placed before the Discography? LDR is primarily known for her music/studio albums and it is a bit puzzling to see the Filmography listed first. For non-fans, this can be confusing too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlapdashOrPersnickety (talk • contribs) 11:54, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Done --MusicAndArtFan (talk) 16:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

BRD - Controversy section

This is a good edit. It is reasonable to give her defenses against a major controversy. It it fades into obscurity it can be removed. Also feel the same about (other) feminism-related information if it is cited to RS. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:23, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

One should wait to see how it plays out before posting about it on the spur of the moment. If it’s a prolonged controversy that lasts months in the press then maybe. But everything someone posts on social media doesn’t warrant a controversy section. --MusicAndArtFan (talk) 17:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I think the overall theme of feminism, which the instagram post was related to as far as I remember, has become relevant to her biography. The other incident is relevant because it builds on that controversy. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Her views on Feminism have already been documented. I also included her support of the me too movement. --MusicAndArtFan (talk) 17:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I updated the information on her views on feminism to defect those views as of 2020. This should do. As for the controversy, just see how it plays out before adding things. Give it a month or two.--MusicAndArtFan (talk) 17:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Judging from this paragraph some instagram posts are more important than others? —DIYeditor (talk) 21:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I was clarifying that it was Navajo Nation where she built houses. There are many Native American reservations. As for the mass shootings, again, this was to bring clarity to the issue she was raising awareness of through her philanthropy; this issue of gun violence in the United States as the US is one country. Not to confuse it with gun violence in other places. Most performers every now and again put something on social media that generates controversy and then it dies down. Since the post comparing herself to other artists, that news item has died down. News cycles are short. It’s not like she has been involved in a prolonged controversy lasting months. A two week period is not a long time. As for her video from the protest, she deleted the one showing the looting. She corrected a mistake. Why make it one mistake a topic for a Wikipedia discussion. Now if we were talking about David Duke, yeah you would have to talk about racism with him as he runs the KKK. That is relevant for him. As for Lana Del Rey, she said some things on Instagram, some folks didn’t like it. People moved on. If we are to include all of Lana’s minor Instagram controversies on here, then perhaps all of the minor social media Controversies of everyone else should be on their respective Instagram pages. I can name a handful of musicians who have made many more controversial statements than Lana ever did and even they don’t have controversy sections on their Wikipedia page. Wikipedia needs to be impartial and a social media controversy pales in comparison to someone like Eric Clapton getting up on stage and using racist words like he did decades ago. It pales in comparison to when Michael Richards went up on stage and started shouting the N word repeatedly in front of the audience. Lana Del Rey’s Instagram posts don’t measure up to any of that and therefor don’t need to be included. If she went out there and started using racist words then that would be different, but she has not done that. If her Instagram controversies are still occurring another month or two from now, then maybe it could be included and that is still a big maybe. --MusicAndArtFan (talk) 22:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@MusicAndArtFan: I don't see how In the early-2000s, Del Rey worked at a homeless shelter and did humanitarian work, including building houses at Navajo Nation. , sourced to a tweet, is more relevant than controversy that was covered in MANY secondary reliable sources. —DIYeditor (talk) 04:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I re-added the controversy section to the article with more robust sourcing, including a Billboard reference that documents her having been involved in multiple controversies. As the article stands, the controversy section is supported by four reliable sources per WP:RSP, while the philanthropy section contains zero. Given that the section now meets the requirement to fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources per WP:DUE, the inclusion of the controversy section is perfectly appropriate. KyleJoan^talk 04:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @KyleJoan: regarding this edit, while I support the restoration of the Controversy section, obviously, I much prefer my version, especially the full quote of what she said about people who "look like" her, which was tied to feminism in the original post. Feminism is a theme on this biography. Also, please note that we are in a WP:BRD cycle and you should participate in this discussion rather than just proceeding with your preferred outcome before it is decided here. —DIYeditor (talk) 04:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

BRD does not fully apply here because the "R" in BRD describes an inclusion that cannot be immediately fixed by refinement, which we have disproved per the re-inclusion with more sources. That aside, I restored most of what you wrote sans the Alison Roman comparison and the quote, the latter of which I replaced with quotes from a USA Today analysis. I'd like to hear why you believe both of these bits should still be included. Regarding the full quote, we can obtain other users' opinions on which of these two proposed inclusions are more appropriate.

1. Del Rey responded to the criticism by stating that her remarks "were taken out of context" and that the artists she'd listed "were among her favorites".
2. Del Rey responded to the criticism that race was the theme of her post by saying "To be clear because I knowwwwww you love to twist things. I fucking love these singers and know them. That is why I mentioned them," and "when I said people who look like me — I meant the people who don’t look strong or necessarily smart, or like they’re in control etc."

I personally believe that the two essentially convey the same message but that the direct quotes read more confusing and unnecessarily lengthy.

Edit: I've copyedited the materials further, so I concede that there is a significant disparity between your original inclusion and the version present in the article. Now that we've established that the inclusion of the section is appropriate, we can open an RfC to obtain more editors' views on which version of the section is more appropriate if you'd like. Thanks! KyleJoan^talk 05:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

RfC about proposed controversy section

Should this section on controversies surrounding Del Rey be included in the article? KyleJoan^talk 14:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Controversies

Del Rey has been the subject of multiple controversies. In May 2020, she attracted criticism for an Instagram post in which she defended herself against accusations of glamorizing abuse in part by naming other female artists, mostly women of color, and citing their respective successes with works about "imperfect sexual relationships". Del Rey responded to the criticism by stating that her remarks "were taken out of context" and that the artists she'd listed "were among her favorites". In the same month, she received further criticism after posting a video of looters during the George Floyd protests.

Del Rey's response

In addition, if you support the inclusion of the controversies section, annotate which of the two wordings detailing Del Rey's response you prefer:

A: Del Rey responded to the criticism by stating that her remarks "were taken out of context" and that the artists she'd listed "were among her favorites".

B: Del Rey responded to the criticism that race was the theme of her post by saying "To be clear because I knowwwwww you love to twist things. I fucking love these singers and know them. That is why I mentioned them," and "when I said people who look like me — I meant the people who don’t look strong or necessarily smart, or like they’re in control etc."

References

Survey

• Support version B: I think it is best to give her full response to the "look like her" statement which was tied to the views on feminism already mentioned in this article. This particular statement was a major point of contention. —DIYeditor (talk) 15:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support section inclusion and A as proposer. These controversies surrounding Del Rey have been documented extensively in reliable sources, so including the section is appropriate per WP:DUE. Regarding how to phrase her response, I find a simple, clear account per a reliable source more effective than unnecessarily lengthy direct quotes. KyleJoan^talk 16:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support Version B It's better as it is her own statement. ~ HAL333 21:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Neither Frankly this is not encyclopedic content at all. This is fodder for stan Twitter. Trillfendi (talk) 03:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing and interpretation for recent comments on feminism

The section on "Social Views" currently contains the following statement:

"As of 2020, Del Rey has identified herself as a feminist and has voiced her support for a third wave of feminism."

This statement is sourced to an Instagram post (primary source) with the following text concerning feminism:

“Let this be clear, I’m not not a feminist -but there has to be a place in feminism for women who look and act like me – the kind of woman who says no but men hear yes – the kind of women who are slated mercilessly for being their authentic, delicate selves, the kind of women who get their own stories and voices taken away from them by stronger women or by men who hate women.”

The use of the double negative ("I'm not not a feminist") and immediately following with a qualifying statement implying that there isn't a "place" for her in feminism is not exactly an unambiguous statement of "identification" as a feminist. The text of the original source is very informal (spelling errors, punctuation errors and loose formatting) and it's not necessarily clear if the use of "not not" is an intentional double negative, a typo of repeating a "not" which was intended to appear once, or a typo of turning what was intended as a "now" into a "not". Without secondary sources to interpret the meaning of this sentence and contextualize it in Del Rey's public history, I don't think it is appropriate to use it in the article the way it is used now. The semantic content is not apparent from the primary source.

The statement that Del Rey "voiced her support for a third wave of feminism" is also (potentially) confusing to the reader and might require further qualification or contextualization than the current text has. The currently-cited source actually does not discuss any "waves" of feminism, but they are discussed in another primary source (https://www.instagram.com/p/CAghpnsJ8Sm/). The following text is relevant:

"...I want to say that what I was writing about was the importance of self advocacy for the more delicate and often dismissed, softer female personality, and that there does have to be room for that type in what will inevitably become a new wave/3rd wave of feminism that is rapidly approaching. Watch!"

Based on this primary source, there are two issues with the text that currently appears in the Wikipedia article. The first is of Del Rey's "support" for a third wave of feminism, which is again not clear from the source material. Del Rey says that a "third wave" of feminism is "inevitable" and that it needs "room for [her] type". Saying that something is inevitable is not equivalent to saying that you support it. The usage of the term "third wave" in reference to something that is "rapidly approaching" (i.e. in the future) is also potentially confusing to readers of the Wikipedia article since the current scholarly and popular consensus is that there have already been a third and fourth wave of feminism. Secondary sources should be added to contextualize and explain how Del Rey's conception of the history of feminism fits with the conception found in other Wikipedia articles.

I therefore propose the following re-writing of the section in the Wikipedia article:

'As of 2020, Del Rey wrote that she was "not not a feminist" and expressed a belief that a "new wave" of feminism characterized by validation of female fragility "is rapidly approaching."[instapost1,instapost2]'

104.13.110.123 (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Poetry

The word poet is regularly added to the infobox or the introduction paragraph. I am aware she will soon be releasing a collection of poems, but even after that, her Wikipedia entry should not present her as a poet. It is not what she is known for and only creates confusion. Unless she actively pursues poetry by putting out successive other publications and gains recognition as a poet in her own right with some consensus in the field of literature, it is inaccurate to describe her as a poet. AleXMetz^{❯❯❯Reach me!} 18:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)