Talk:Death of Harry Dunn

Should include entire Trump quote

I think the article needs to include the entire Trump quote to illustrate to the world how the leader of the most powerful country in the world is a complete blithering idiot. Quote from https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-49995867 "The woman was driving on the wrong side of the road, and that can happen. You know, those are the opposite roads, that happens. I won't say it ever happened to me, but it did. So a young man was killed, the person that was driving the automobile has diplomatic immunity, we're going to speak to her very shortly and see if we can do something where they meet."165.225.38.124 (talk) 17:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Including the entire long quote of one person and no one else would be unbalanced. Other people have made more meaningful statements on this subject in fewer words. Jonathunder (talk) 14:35, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Jonathunder. Trump's thoughts on the incident only deserve passing mention at most. NickCT (talk) 01:15, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

The BBC is still reporting that Jonathan Sacoolas is a diplomat. That is highly questionable, as is the statement that he and his wife had diplomatic immunity. Investigate the purpose of “RAF Croughton” where Sacoolas was based and think about the claim that the family address in the States is near Foggy Bottom. Craig Murray has two articles about the case on his blog: [1] and [2].     ←   ZScarpia   23:17, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

He's clearly not a diplomat. I think there are probably a few reporters who are taking the US at its word w/o verification. NickCT (talk) 01:31, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the fact that Murray is not a reliable source, immunity is not restricted to diplomats per se, but rather extends to accredited support staff, as well. However, it has been reported that Sacoolas's husband was not registered as such, so did not have immunity, therefore neither did his wife. Nick Cooper (talk) 10:07, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Of course, Murray is a reliable source for what he himself has written. The point of linking to his articles on the talkpage isn't so much to push to have their contents included in the article, though, but to alert editors to the probable unreliability of what is being reported in the media. Who has diplomatic protection is bound by law and those who have it are listed. The Sacoolases weren't listed. Why would the government dissemble? What is fact and what is misinformation?     ←   ZScarpia   12:15, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

First name

Is her first name Anne or Anna? The article listed several instances of each. I changed them all to Anne. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:15, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Accident or incident?

I noticed the article uses the word 'incident' everywhere. Shouldn't it be called 'accident' instead? It's more specific and describes what happened. An incident in traffic, unintentional, that caused (lethal) injury, is by my knowledge usually called a traffic accident. Now when it's about the diplomatic immunity involved, that could be called an incident. Zorba1968 (talk) 19:05, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, a fair question. The article opens with "road traffic collision" which I think is probably the best and most neutral term, even though most RTCs are accidents. I think the parents also admitted themselves, on television, that it was an accident. We should follow whatever the sources say. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:44, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

"Incident" and "collision" are neutral terms, "accident" is loaded in this context, so should be avoided. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:59, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Traffic collision is more specific than "incident" and factual from a neutral point of view. Use and link it in the first instance and use "collision" thereafter. Jonathunder (talk) 20:02, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with that. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:05, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Many sources also use "crash", e.g. The Independent, The Guardian and BBC. I see, however that The New York Times uses "accident", as does the Washington Examiner. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

I think the term "accident" became non-PC for road incidents in the UK a few years ago, following campaigning in support of vulnerable road users and/or against private motor transport by various pressure groups. The British police used to systematically refer to them as "road traffic accidents" or RTAs, but now they call them RTCs or RTIs ("road traffic collisions" or "road traffic incidents") and the British press now seem to following that lead. Perhaps it's different in the US. And yes, I agree that "crash" is neutral too. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:20, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Accident is a neutral term I would say; I don't see why it would be "loaded"? It just describes specifically, that the incident was unintentional and caused damage or harm. I don't think there's anything controversial about either of these two things, in this case. It was clearly an accident. It has indeed also been described as an accident by various sources. Now "collision" is not a neutral word, because it implies nobody is to blame for it. So I don't agree with "collision", as the police at no point has treated this as an incident for which nobody is to blame; there is a suspect. Zorba1968 (talk) 20:25, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes they do. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

That page is not about this accident. Every accident is also an incident, so it's only logical police use that term in a general way, more so when it has yet to be reported even. But during investigation, an incident may turn out to be an accident, specifically. As I think has happened here, as we're not in the reporting phase but have a nearly complete investigation by police. By my knowledge, an accident is an incident that caused (lethal) injury (or damage), unintentionally . It is important to note that unintentionally does not mean there is no blame/guilt/responsibility/culpability; it just means there was no intent (as compared to f.i. a terrorist attack). Zorba1968 (talk) 20:55, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

We don't know all the facts yet, so are unable to state as fact whether it was an an accident, or not. We do however know for sure that a collision/incident occurred. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:01, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

@Zorba1968: I think the reasoning in the UK is that "accident" implies it happened unexpectedly, unintentionally and with no blame (it's loading) before the full facts are known, whereas "incident" and "collision" are totally neutral wrt blame. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:57, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Legal niceties notwithstanding, in the minds of most British people, who have followed the story from the statements made by Dunn's parents, and in the television news, I suspect there is little doubt it was "an accident". Here is Dunn's mother, Charlotte Charles, describing the "big fireball when his bike went up": [3]. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:34, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, everyone. Well, this seems to be more complicated and subjective than I thought it would be. Various sources do not seem to agree on the exact meanings of these terms, probably also because of legal reasons and implications various words may suggest, rightly or wrongly. I think (or thought!) the notion that "accident" implies "nobody to blame" is a wrong understanding of what the word "accident" means in the context of "traffic accidents" or in a legal context. I haven't come across the notion of "nobody to blame" in any dictionary definition of "accident". But obviously, if enough people start using the word "accident" as to mean "nobody to blame", then its meaning will become just that... It gets more confusing because the word accident in English also gets used (in a different context, as I understand it) to suggest something like a "chance event". That complicates matters obviously. Looking at https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/accident comparing meanings 1. and 2. is probably what the confusion is about.

My problem with the word "incident" in this specific case, is that it is a very general term, also used to describe situations that didn't cause any (significant) harm or damage, and as such feels like it's an euphemism for what happened here.

On second (or third!) thought, I think "collision" or "crash" might be the best terms after all, although people even seem to disagree on that (as per my earlier US law firm reference).

As far as sources go, it's not gonna help much here, as "incident", "accident", "collision" and "crash" have all been used for this event by reputable sources... Zorba1968 (talk) 21:44, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'd certainly agree that word has several meanings. Including unplanned pregnancy. In the field of aviation the words "accident" and "incident" are quite separate. And the notion of "ultimate blame" may not be a particularly useful one. But in the field of road transport there is certainly a much larger degree overlap between the terms. On the motorways of Britain the word "incident" can encompass many events including attempted suicide from a motorway bridge to animals loose on the carriageway or a police forced vehicle stop. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

References

"Left" vs. "fled"

DeFacto - Looking at this edit; there are plenty of sources that use "fled" including NYT, WaPo, Vox. Bit confused what you mean by "sourced prose". Where do you think we're pulling that wording from? NickCT (talk) 17:18, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

I note that The Independent also uses that word here, as does The Guardian here and the Evening Standard here. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:26, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT: what I mean is that our article prose does not frame it as fleeing, it uses the word "left" both times leaving the country is mentioned. "Flee" implies escaping from danger, and our article doesn't explain what that danger might be. There is no reason to "flee" if no wrongdoing has occurred, and until we see evidence of law breaking wrt to the leaving, I think we have a duty under WP:BLP to use neutral terminology. Newspapers tend to editorialise by the use of loaded language, but Wikipedia has its WP:NPOV policy and is not a newspaper, so should avoid the use of such words without direct and reliably sourced evidence to support their literal meanings. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:52, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Wrongdoing has occurred. She was fleeing justice. She's a fugitive. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:54, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@DeFacto: - I disagree that "fleeing" indicates wrong doing has occurred. Imagine hypothetically I'm in some backward third-world country and someone accuses me of being a witch. I may flee to avoid an angry mob coming to prosecute me for witchcraft. I haven't done anything wrong. I'm just fleeing to avoid a mob.

Using the word "flee" to mean "avoid prosecution" is pretty common. Whether or not Sacoolas did anything wrong, she pretty clearly fled an attempt at prosecution.

Would she suggest she left for some reason other than avoiding prosecution? NickCT (talk) 20:37, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Agree. Also note that "The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Flee" (... but I'm not really sure what the shadows did wrong.) Martinevans123 (talk) 20:44, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: - <chortle> NickCT (talk) 20:47, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT: fleeing danger or wrongdoing I said. Whichever it is, we need to document it in the prose before we can summarise it in the lead, wouldn't you think? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:11, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

We're not saying she "fled danger or wrongdoing." The sentence is question is this: "The collision became the centre of a diplomatic incident after Sacoolas fled the country claiming diplomatic immunity." Maybe she fled from a perceived impending onslaught of tabloid news reporters? Maybe she fled because she felt guilty or remorseful? Maybe she fled from the anger and blame of her own husband? We don't know. But to leave very quickly, without any explanation, looks to most people like "fleeing". And I'd suggest that's why many quality broadsheet newspapers have used that word in their reports. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:25, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: but those "maybes" are maybes and not reliably sourced facts, which, unlike the press - regardless of paper size - Wikipedia needs. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@DeFacto: - I sorta take your point. But the article's wording seems to make it clear she's being investigating, and in danger of being prosecuted, no? NickCT (talk) 03:39, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT: sort of, but I think the word implies something which hasn't been said and which isn't sourced. I think the less loaded word "left" is more appropriate unless we can reliably source those implications. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

You say "Flee" implies escaping from danger. But I disagree; that's just another maybe. It's your assumption. I'd agree that the word "left" is more neutral. But I see no real problem with the word "fled". Martinevans123 (talk) 08:04, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: the Oxford Advanced Learners dictionary defines it: to leave a person or place very quickly, especially because you are afraid of possible danger.[4] How do you define it? -- DeFacto (talk). 21:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

See my reply below. I think your WP:OR interpretation here is "especially" narrow. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:13, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@DeFacto: - It's pretty clearly sourced that Anne is being investigated and is at risk of being charged. I take your point that "left" is less loaded, but isn't it also less precise? Someone can "leave" for any reason. "Fleeing" is "leaving" in order to avoid something. I think you agree Sacoolas is leaving in order to avoid prosecution.

Anyways, you seem to have a minor preference for "leave". Martin and I seem to have a minor preference for "flee". Do you want to pursue this? We could set up a simple straw poll. Get some other opinions... NickCT (talk) 13:18, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT: I don't agree that we actually know why she left, all we have is speculation. And I don't have a minor preference for "leave", I have a major objection to the use of "flee" without knowing for sure what her reason for leaving was. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:28, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@DeFacto: - So you're seriously suggesting she left for some reason other than avoiding prosecution? Really......? You sure you're not being a little willfully blind here?

Anyway, we now have three people weighing in for "fled". You didn't answer my question about the poll. NickCT (talk) 00:33, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT: I think what we need is a WP:Consensus, and not a poll. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:27, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@DeFacto: - If we're at an impasse, we're meant to move to something like an RfC per WP:DR. I don't see this debate advancing much. Partly b/c you're not answering questions like "do you seriously propose Anne left for some reason other than to escape investigation?". NickCT (talk) 16:32, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT: I am not proposing a reason for her leaving, I'm questioning the use of the word "fled" when we do not have any evidence to support the use of it. I do not know why she left, because, from what I've seen, she has never said, I don't think we should include press speculation as if it were incontrovertible fact. Feel free to escalate this discussion as you see fit. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:08, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@DeFacto: - We frequently include press speculation as incontrovertible fact. The thing is, it's not for me or you to determine what facts are. If the NYT says something is so, then it is so. Unless there's some other RS that says it is not so.

I don't want to escalate it. I also don't want to talk in circles. NickCT (talk) 20:33, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT: I agree we've spend enough time on this, but am disappointed that you are happy to state in the lead (which should summarise the article) that she fled, with nothing to support that statement expressed anywhere else in the article. I'll leave it now for others to judge. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:31, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree that while "fled" could be perceived as somewhat loaded, it is also more precise. "Left" doesn't sound right; doesn't describe the controversial nature of it properly. I prefer "fled."-- P-K3 (talk) 14:08, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Pawnkingthree: "flee" is only more precise if we know incontrovertibly that she was escaping danger. The current speculation may be wrong, so does not support its use. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:32, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I think you are mistaken in your personal belief that people flee only from "danger". That seems to me to be a very overly-restrictive and narrow interpretation. Just take a look, for example, at flee#Verb? I think it's very widely believed that Sacoolas was fleeing from justice. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

That would equate to my understanding, but "believed" isn't enough though, that is just speculation. We need to hear it from her or from a court judgment to know it, and to comply with WP:BLP, before stating it here. -- DeFacto (talk). 23:29, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

So... we've got your belief, and that is just speculation. And we've got what I perceive as a "general belief" voiced by the UK media, which may also be pure speculation. The trouble is that this "court judgment", as you put it, may never happen? And in the meantime I don't think it's very likely that Sacoolas herself will ever admit "I fled from the UK because..." I'm sure her lawyers will have advised her strongly against that. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:39, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I've read the article through again, and the word "fled" in the lead does not summarise accurately what we present as the event in the prose, and per MOS:LEAD, it should. Perhaps the prose understates the circumstances, or perhaps sources do not support the stronger wording, but whichever it is, the lead should be an accurate summary and not introduce a concept not presented in the prose. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I see. Maybe we need to use the word "fled" just in the article main body and not in the lead section. But I think your view on what that word means, and how it describes the event to the reader, is in the minority here. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:55, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

My view on what the word means is supported by the link you gave to it in Wikt above. To use the word as an assertion of fact, rather than just presenting it as the opinion of a specific journalist or journalists, we need to be able to reliably source as fact (and not just as the opinion of journalists) that her intent was to run away or escape from the prospect of something that she perceived as a "danger" to her. Currently all we have in the article about her leaving the UK is that she "...had left the UK on a US Air Force aircraft.", "The collision became the subject of a diplomatic dispute when Sacoolas left the country shortly after the incident and the US embassy said she had diplomatic immunity as the wife of a US agent working in the UK." and "The Dunn family became aware that Anne Sacoolas had left the UK a week later on 23 September." - neither of which support the notion of "fleeing". -- DeFacto (talk). 13:08, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Eh? That wikt link says this:

1.(intransitive) To run away; to escape.

The prisoner tried to flee, but was caught by the guards.

2.(transitive) To escape from.

Many people fled the country as war loomed.

Thousands of people moved northward trying to flee the drought.

3.(intransitive) To disappear quickly; to vanish.

Ethereal products flee once freely exposed to air.

How can all of these always mean or imply "flee from danger"? There may be danger, yes, but it's not necessary. Sacoolas was fleeing from justice. I don't count justice as "danger". I'm sorry, but I really can't be bothered linking other dictionary entries that support this fact. I'm going to leave it there. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: perhaps we have different understandings of the word "danger" then? To me, all those definitions of "flee" rely on the one who is fleeing having a perception that they might be in danger from something if they stay. "Danger" can mean the fear that something unpleasant might happen, as well as the liklihood of physical harm or injury. We don't use the word "fled" for a normal journey, we only use it for a journey made to escape something we perceive may cause something unpleasant to happen. So "fled" implies trying to escape from something - but we don't have any facts supporting that premise in the article at the moment. Can you supply an RS that supports your assertion that she "was fleeing from justice", which could be considered a danger to someone who thinks they might be found guilty of some wrongdoing and fears unpleasant consequences might be the result it they stayed? -- DeFacto (talk). 19:36, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I hope this will be my last comment on this topic. I'll leave to others to discuss further and decide. Yes, it seems we do indeed have different understandings of the both the word "flee" and the word danger". And I think all those definitions of "flee" in the wikt page are examples not an exhaustive list. Quite regardless of any personal understandings or dictionary definitions, we have plenty of RS sources which say she fled. I'm happy to follow them. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:52, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: but we only say it in the lead, without supporting that interpretation in the prose. Readers enticed to read further by that lead will be left unsatisfied by the anticlimactic detail! If you are convinced "fled" is justified, why not back it up in the prose? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:31, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: you keep on reinstating the word, but there is no consensus here for its use. Repeatedly re-reverting other editors changes is not an alternative for reaching consensus here; please read WP:OWN. I'd also point out that Sacoolas is a living person covered by WP:BLP. -- The Anome (talk) 13:44, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

User:The Anome, you say "keep on reinstating"? Could you please show us a diff when I previously reinstated that word? I didn't revert you here either; you changed the word in the lead section, I left that alone and changed the word in the main body, in response to your edit summary which said "there is no inline cite for this" (and you're edit summary didn't say "multiple inline citations needed for this word")? A single use of the word in the main body seemed to be an acceptable compromise to other editors. But now you claim that I'm trying to WP:OWN this article?? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:54, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

p.s. yes, I am aware that Anne Sacoolas is a living person, thanks. I'm not sure why that would prevent her now from having fled the country. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:55, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

p.p.s. as I already indicated at the top of this thread, two other WP:RS sources also used that word. Those could easily be added if you wish. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I should also point out that this matter either is, or is very likely soon to be, sub judice. Anything other than strictly factual information here is thus very likely to be a breach of WP:BLP. -- The Anome (talk) 14:36, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

It might be useful to agree whether this is topic sub judice or not? Meanwhile, could you provide those diffs that you alluded to in accusing me of WP:OWN? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:51, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I withdraw the "keep on reinstating" remark, as I didn't fully check the edit history; however, my comments stand, with the removal of the words "keep on". In my opinion, I'd also exercise caution if there's even a chance of something being sub judice. People deserve to be treated fairly, with a presumption of innocence regardless of what other people might think they have or have not done. -- The Anome (talk) 15:03, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

"People deserve to be treated fairly". Quite agree. But I'm still presumed to be guilty of WP:OWN at this article? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:08, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree, whether this is sub-judice, or not. I think we should stick to WP:NPOV and avoid loaded language such as that, unless we have unequivocal and reliably sourced evidence (rather than speculation and/or sensationalist news reporting) of that implied ulterior motive for the journey. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:54, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh. You agree I'm guilty of WP:OWN here? I wouldn't describe any of those three sources as "sensationalist". Martinevans123 (talk) 17:31, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

One compelling reason for using the more understated term ("left") is that, often, understatement conveys the gravity of a situation more effectively than does stronger language. As a frequent reader of the Daily Mail, I know of what I speak (it's an international laughingstock).

Further, I'm convinced that a legal expert or someone in her husband's chain of command told her, in essence, to "Get out. Just get out as fast as you can." On that basis, I cannot personally ascribe to her the agency to have "fled" simply because she feared the British legal system. In my opinion, she did "flee", but on the advice of an "expert" as well as in fear. Therefore I would say that she "left", and rather abruptly at that.--Quisqualis (talk) 15:40, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Your candour, in admitting such reading habits, is quite surprising, especially here. But the substance of your comment seems to be driven by sheer speculation. I think the article should simply reflect good sources. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:47, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Burial

Template:Infobox event provides only for "burial". But Dunn's body was cremated. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:03, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Cause

The additional wording "with car driven on wrong side of the road" was removed, for a second time, with the edit summary "we know it was driven on the wrong side, but won't know how significant that was in terms of 'cause' until we know what the findings of the collision investigation are". The fact that the police have charged Sacoolas with causing death by dangerous driving suggests to me that they are pretty sure Sacoolas' car was the cause of the collision. The only additional part of the investigation is the formal interviewing by police of Sacoolas, which may never happen. I can understand the need for brevity in the infobox, but the reasoning currently suggested for that removal seems unsound. Is the intention that the outcome of a criminal trial will provide the necessary "proof" of cause? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk)

It doesn't matter what the police think, or what the charges are. All that matters are the findings of any trial, which will weigh up the evidence and the findings of any investigation into the collision, and mitigating circumstances, etc. We must wait for that, and not try to second-guess - based solely on the limited details currently in the public domain. -- DeFacto (talk). 11:37, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

"It doesn't matter what the police think"... (when the incident was captured on CCTV)? I see. And if the trial never happens... I guess nobody will ever know if Sacoolas' car was the cause of the accident or not? Perhaps her leaving the country, under the guise of diplomatic immunity, was just a coincidence. But you seem to be agreeing that the reason we can't have those extra words, under "cause", in the infobox, is that we'd need a trial verdict (or a guilty plea, at least). Martinevans123 (talk) 11:48, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

And not just the police, of course, but the CPS. Also Sacoolas' lawyer Amy Jeffress, who has said this (emphasis added: "Anne is devastated by this tragic accident and continues to extend her deepest condolences to the family. Anne would do whatever she could to bring Harry back. She is a mother herself and cannot imagine the pain of the loss of a child. She has cooperated fully with the investigation and accepted responsibility ... This was an accident, and a criminal prosecution with a potential penalty of 14 years’ imprisonment is simply not a proportionate response." She said the potential 14-year sentence was "not proportionate" for what was "a terrible but unintentional accident". Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

If you can show that the balance of reliable sources support the assertion of fact that that was certainly the cause of the death, then fine, but otherwise we cannot assert it, regardless of our personal, only partially informed, opinion of the liklihood. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:48, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm struggling to understand how the death could have been caused by anything else. I'm sorry if I'm "only partially informed." I'm basing my view on a fair selection of what I have read in the broadsheet press and seen on television news over the past four months. I'm really not sure why the onus is not on yourself to show there is any doubt, in reliable sources, that the car driven by Sacoolas wasn't the cause of Dunn's death. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:16, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Without having seen all the reports of the investigations that took place, it would be unwise to speculate as to all the possible factors contributing to the untimely death. Don't forget too, that there could also be mitigating factors. So let's wait for the findings to be published. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:28, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think it's very usual for the police in the UK to ever publish "all the reports of the investigations that took place." All that one might reasonably expect to see would be court proceedings, reported second-hand, and an eventual trial outcome? Mitigating factors might affect Sacoolas's legal culpability, but not the actual cause of the collision, for which she has already admitted responsibility. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:31, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Use of 'accused'

The word accused being used to describe the person who killed Harry Dunn should be changed to accurately reflect the truth. As one user pointed out, the word 'accused' in the legal term used in England and Wales. Fortunately, Wikipedia is not a British-only website. As such, care should be taken so as to not cause confusion. While she has been accused of wrongdoing by courts in England, this is the only place where this is applicable. Accused is defined as a person who has been charged with a crime but does not show whether the party is guilty or not.

In this case, the accused is guilty. There is no doubt. She has admitted to driving the vehicle that struck Dunn at the time that Dunn was hit. She has admitted to driving on the wrong side of the road, which is reckless driving.

So by using the term accused, you give credence to the idea that she is not guilty. She is guilty. If you want to use the term manslaughter, that is also acceptable (personally though, by fleeing the country by claiming diplomatic immunity which she was not entitled shows a level of malice warranting being described as murderer). But accused and alleged are not proper terms describing the reality of the situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.107.90.28 (talk) 11:16, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

"Accused" is a legal term everywhere, and I think it's appropriate here. I think it's pretty clear from the lead that Anne was responsible for the incident. I think the word "accused" helps make it clear that, though she's responsible, her guilt hasn't been legally established. NickCT (talk) 13:25, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

76.107.90.28, thank you for finally raising the matter here. I agree with NickCT. The terms accused and alleged are perfectly appropriate in this context. Note that your previous repeated edits simply had the effect of removing the name of the accused person from the infobox, as "Murderer" is not a valid parameter there. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:35, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Also, please note that the CPS has decided the appropriate charge is Causing death by dangerous driving, and not the lesser charge of Reckless driving, as you suggest above. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:42, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Please also note that leaving the country after a traffic collision (whether "fleeing" or not) does not automatically mean one is guilty of murder. Not in the Law of England and Wales anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:44, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

"Allegedly"

I'm really not entirely sure why anyone can still pretend that Sacoolas' driving on the wrong side of the road is no more than just "an allegation", when the article plainly says this:

"An investigation into the collision by Nick Adderley, the chief constable of Northamptonshire Police, determined, from CCTV records, that a car had been travelling on the wrong side of the road." The source is this.

Sacoolas has never denied that this is a fact. The lead now says something that the article does not. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:21, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

"A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law." (WP:BLPCRIME) Also, the absence of a denial is not equivalent to an admission. I invite you to find any reliable source where Sacoolas says "I did it". WWGB (talk) 00:06, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm surprised that any denial by Sacoolas would not have come to light by now. The current BBC source here says quite plainly: "The force has said CCTV of the crash in which Mr Dunn died shows a Volvo travelling on the wrong side of the road." I'm not sure why the police would choose to invent that. I seem to recall that Mr Trump also had something to say on the matter, not that we can necessarily believe anything he says, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:37, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

But we don't know for sure why it was there, whether it was there at the moment of the collision, or even whose car it was - do we?. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:22, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't see that anyone is asking "why", or that the article needs to establish this. The police say it has seen "CCTV of the crash" - that's sounds pretty clear to me. You seem to be suggesting there may have been another Volvo, owned and driven by someone else, that just happened to be there, at the time of the collision. I really think this would have been ruled out before the CPS brought a criminal case. If the vehicle was not being driven by Sacoolas, why did she stop and cooperate with the police? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:29, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Well, we could speculate - but it's better to wait for the outcome of any proceedings I think. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:46, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't see that a statement of fact, given by Northamptonshire Police, which is reported in multiple WP:RS sources, and which has been publically challenged by no-one, as "speculation". If you wish to use the word "alleged" in the lead section of this article, perhaps you should at least provide a source for that? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:13, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Note what the manual of style states about using the term "alleged" in articles. It is marked among "words that may introduce bias":

• "Words such as supposed, apparent, alleged and purported can imply that a given point is inaccurate, although alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial; when these are used, ensure that the source of the accusation is clear." Dimadick (talk) 11:50, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

  I'm not sure how the source of the "accusation" could be any clearer in this case. Perhaps it could be made clearer in the lead section if:

"The car was being driven, allegedly on the wrong side of the road, by Anne Sacoolas..."

was replaced with

"Northamptonshire Police said that the car was being driven, on the wrong side of the road, by Anne Sacoolas..."

As for people "awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial", this does not seem to cover people who are "not awaiting any trial, because they have left the country and won't be handed back"? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:55, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

So what's the objection to this proposal, exactly? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I have no issue with the WSOTR allegation being attributed to police. WWGB (talk) 09:44, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

WSOTR? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:20, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Hint: the first word is "wrong". WWGB (talk) 10:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Could we have hints for the other four words as well, please? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:54, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Do we have any reliable sources reporting that the police have ever actually said who was driving the car at the moment the collision occurred - or are we combining information from multiple sources and drawing our own conclusion? -- DeFacto (talk). 10:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

The Washington Post in its article here says this (my emphasis added):

"On Thursday, the U.S. government denied a British extradition request pertaining to Anne Sacoolas, an American diplomat’s wife. Sacoolas admitted to driving on the wrong side of the road when she collided with 19-year-old Dunn in August, but she claimed immunity and fled to the United States. She has been formally charged with “causing death by dangerous driving."

Sorry, there's that word "fled" again. But is that clear enough for you? Or are you suggesting that the police did not explicitly say this, and so Sacoolas may have been mistaken? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:43, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

That certainly isn't a source that directly supports "Northamptonshire Police said that the car was being driven, on the wrong side of the road, by ..." though. They tend to couch their output in "on suspicion of", "in connection with", etc. So without a directly sourced and unambiguous quote from the police, I think what we can say in the article, based on the current sources we have, and pending any court case, is: "The car was allegedly being driven on the wrong side of the road by ..." We can also say she admitted whatever she admitted, but we cannot conclude any specific fact about culpability without a court verdict. -- DeFacto (talk). 11:14, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

And I think use of the word "allegedly" is inappropriate and misrepresents what's stated in the article as a whole. I really can't think of a source that's clearer than The Washington Post one above. We are meant to reflect what RS sources report. In fact I'd be happy to add that sentence from the WaPo wholesale into the article and lead section, if you prefer. Or would you claim that was a copyvio? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:22, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps some of the rest of the article needs rewording if there are unsourced conclusions in it. And I don't think we need single-source quotes in the lead, we can surely summarise the article without contravening Wiki policy and without wrongly asserting or insinuating culpability. And 'allegedly' is not inappropriate, it is standard practice to use it in the UK before a trial has taken place - I think it would be very inappropriate to leave it out. -- DeFacto (talk). 11:34, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps. I don't see how a statement such as "Sacoolas admitted to driving on the wrong side of the road when she collided with 19-year-old Dunn in August" insinuates anything. I have yet to see any source whatsoever that suggests Sacoolas did not cause Dunn to die, because the car she was driving, on the wrong side of the road, collided with his motorcycle. Her culpability is not in dispute. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:48, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Foreign Office declines to comment on reports Anne Sacoolas was CIA officer

I don't know this subject well, but this seems an important thing to include

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/09/anne-sacoolas-cia-officer-government-comment-harry-dunn

John Cummings (talk) 12:39, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I would support addition. The only problem might be that the original source was the Daily Mail. Even without the CIA claim, the comments made by Jeremy Hunt and Robert Jenrick on Sky’s Sophy Ridge on Sunday are probably worth mention. I note also that The Guardian source you provide says, yet again, quite clearly: "after the car she was driving stuck Dunn’s motorbike outside RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire" (see thread above). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:49, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I think if we say something like "On 8 February, the Daily Mail reported that Sacoolas was a former CIA officer, which was then picked up by other publications. The following day, Jenrick and Hunt were asked on Sky’s Sophy Ridge on Sunday about this, but said etc etc" then it should be good. PotentPotables (talk) 14:31, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. I see now, on social meejah, that Radd Seiger is claiming that Sacoolas' employment was "common knowledge" in Whitehall and he is calling for a formal enquiry. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, the info should certainly be added. It's been pretty obvious from the start that Sacoolas, her husband or both are CIA spooks not 'diplomats'. The UK government has shamefully connived at keeping this quiet, presumably because they are afraid of Trump's tantrums. --Ef80 (talk) 14:51, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I think we should wait for an RS to substantiate it, because without that, we are relying on a second-hand account of a story from a "deprecated" source, the Mail, a source described as having a "reputation for poor fact checking, sensationalism, and flat-out fabrication" in the closer's remarks on this RfC. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:04, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Sky reports here that is has "confirmed" the story. I think this is a case where use of the word "alleged" would be quite fair. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:36, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Mentioned in The Guardian ([5]), The Indy ([6], HuffPost ([7]), ITV ([8] and Mirror ([9])