Talk:Nancy Pelosi

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I decided to clean up some of the article in preperation of her taking the speakership on thursday. If by some diabolical miracle she loses, I would be glad to put everything back the way it was, but I doubt it very much. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ericl (talk • contribs) 02:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

And yet, she is STILL not Speaker. I don't understand why people can't bring themselves to wait on editing this. She will be speaker, I assume, when they VOTE ON HER sometime after 12:00. JCO312 14:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

After countless premature edits (since November 7th, 2006), Pelosi (after being sworn in, following election by the Full House on January 4th, 2007), is now the Speaker of the US House of Represenatives. GoodDay 20:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone who can edit it needs to change "fromer" to "former" Freepatriot 15:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC) Freepatriot

Done DSRH 18:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Biased Reference to the Patriot Act

Section 3.13 states:

Pelosi has also promised Muslims she'll "correct the Patriot Act," one of the tools the FBI has in ferreting out jihadist cells lurking in Muslim communities.

This explanation of the Patriot Act is not necessary and is certainly not neutral. It should be removed or edited. The words "tool," "ferreting out" and "lurking" are innapropriate in this context. (61.91.191.6 03:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

Rise to power as a Fundraiser must be mentioned

Read David Brook's Jan. 4, 2007 column in the New York Times.

It is clear that Nancy Pelosi rose to power largely due to her fundraising prowess. Before being elected, she arranged fundraising events for the Democratic party. In office, she raised money and donated it to her colleagues. Her husband is an "investor".

This fundraising side of Pelosi must be included, or else the article is grossly incomplete. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.198.14.5 (talk) 15:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

LINK http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6107062.stm

Her fundraising prowess is unquestioned: the mother-of-five has raised more for the Democrats in this mid-term election than almost anyone else.

Cannot edit - Why is this page non-editable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.18.16 (talk • contribs)

The article is currently sprotected. The policy can be seen here. The reasons for the current protected status can be seen on the talk page (back in the archived discussion I think). It mostly relates to frequent vandalism from what I remember. If you want something edited post it here and an established user can do it. Hopefully we can unprotect this page soon but that remains to be seen. --Rtrev 03:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the {{sprotect}} tag appear in the article itself, then? -- Heath 24.53.130.213 19:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC) Never mind -- E. Litella 24.53.130.213 19:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)  :)

Pelosi did not rise to power “largely because of her fundraising ability” no more than any other political leader did. It’s a job requirement for a political leader to be an excellent fundraiser. Many politicians who hold office raise money and donate it to their colleagues. It’s how the party system works. All the heavyweights do this.

Huckabee, Lieberman, Guiliani, Delay, Boehner, and Bush are all “known for their fundraising” yet none of their Wikipedia articles attribute their success as political leaders to their ability to raise money. Nancy Pelosi is Speaker of the House because she is an excellent politician, just like all those who held this position before her. She is not Speaker of the House because she “bought it” and this POV is biased, chauvinistic and offensive.

David Brooks OPINION about Ms. Pelosi is scathingly sexist and cites no references. This Wikipedia article will be grossly negligent if it includes this biased POV. If you want to list and cite her incredible fundraising accomplishments, go for it. If you want to say that she raised more money than any other Democrat in a certain time period, find the citation and include it. Let the facts speak for themselves. Computerhag 23:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Whip

Nancy Pelosi was minority whip in the 107th Congress, not minority leader.

Biased section on Tax and Budgets

"She has supported many bills which would increase assistance to the poor and disadvantaged while increasing taxes on the middle and upper classes."

While it's true that Pelosi did advocate for tax increases, the targets of these increases are mostly the wealthy. For example, in a recent speech Pelosi stated "Bush-era tax cuts would have to be rolled back for those above "a certain level", then refering that "certain level" to mean people whose annual incomes are over 250k-300k.

http://www.nationalledger.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=5&num=8906141.154.82.59 16:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Sign your comments, anon. This isn't a blog. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 15:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Signed. I enjoy your attitude towards fellow Wikipedians Haizum. 141.154.82.59 16:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV in Civil Liberties Section?

I question whether the opinions of the Traditional Values Coalition qualify as a Neutral Point of View in this context! --Mpwrmnt 02:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Quite right. I've reduced the comment to a minimum. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. WJBscribe ^{(WJB talk)} 03:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

This needs formatting and sourcing

Africa Pelosi sponsored the Hunger to Harvest bill, which urges the President to:

• set forth five-year and ten-year strategies to achieve a reversal of current levels of hunger and poverty in sub-Saharan Africa, including a commitment to contribute an appropriate U.S. share of increased bilateral and multilateral poverty-focused resources for sub-Saharan Africa, with an emphasis on health (including HIV-AIDS prevention and treatment), education, agriculture, private sector and free market development, democratic institutions and the rule of law, micro-finance development, and debt relief; and
• work with the heads of other donor countries and sub-Saharan African countries and with private and voluntary organizations and other civic organizations to implement such strategies; and calls for
• Congress to undertake a multi-year commitment to provide the resources to implement those strategies; and
• the Administrator of the United States Agency for International Development to report on such implementation. Jasper23 04:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

-

The statement "Pelosi has voted for federal funding of abortion facilities and for financial aid to such organizations." needs a citation. I don't know how to do it, but at

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2409&can_id=H0222103

It says that she voted in favor of said things.

Optimism.rll 02:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC) Optimism.rll 1/8/07 9:05 PM

Actually, she voted to withhold funding for family planning organizations overseas unless they do not promote abortion. Xiner (talk, email) 02:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Pov issues in gun control section

First sentence is a pov problem because the text does not truly match the source (semantics) as it is a link to her voting record. Further along, Pelosi should not be refered to as "she". Last sentence needs sourcing.

=== Gun control ===. Pelosi voted against the 24 Hour Background Check Amendment bill. Pelosi also voted for an amendment to this bill that would extend the waiting period to 72 hours. Pelosi also voted against the Gun Ban Repeal Act of 1995. Pelosi has also voted against the "Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006" (HR 5013), which now mades it illegal for federal, state, and local authorities who are funded by federal monies to confiscate legally owned weapons in national emergencies.

Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable about this subject that can fix this up and put it back in, as it is an important issue. Thanks. Jasper23 04:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Jasper23. I have made the suggested corrections. Please review them and let me know if they are appropriate and in good taste. 71.115.7.71 20:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)Thank you JoShua

platform and election Sections

This whole Political Platform section seems trumped-up and looks more like a laundry list of one-sentence headings. I looked at other articles for political leaders and many don't even have a section on platforms and votes (Hastert, Gingrich, Foley, Daschle, Lott, Dole). Those that do have a couple of paragraphs which highlight a significant platform, not track all activity. With this in mind, I re-read the entire section and honestly nothing stands out as significant. She appears to vote in a predictable pattern for a Democrat or with the majority. This whole section should either be removed or significantly streamlined.

The elections section is a list of useless information that doesn't add any significant information to this article.

Computerhag 06:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that the article on Pelosi, compared to others, has more information as it pertains to voting history is because Pelosi is a current political leader. I don't think the structure of the information presented for any one person has to follow the same pattern. It would be nice and I can understand how that would benefit the Wikipedia site in general. I think the more information that can be found, the better off the site will be. The information presented might not be significant to you or you might find it useless, but somebody took the time to create this section, so it must have been important to them. I don't want us to forget that the first amendment guarantees free speech. As long as the information presented is factual and has reliable cites, I don't see a problem. Voting history is a very important aspect to creating educated voters. Knowledge is power. Thank you, JoShua 03:26, 13 January 2007

WP is not a catchall for every fact about a person. It is an encyclopedia. Look up a US senator in another encyclopedia you will not see a list of every bill they have sponsored, voted on, etc. You will see short sections on important legislation. If you want a complete list of platform issues and legislation there are entire internet sites devoted to it. That is not what the WP is for. This article is becoming simply a legislation list and per WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE policy I think we can probably pare this back to "important legislation." --Rtrev 00:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The messed-up references section

This edit messed it up. Can someone please clean it up. Thanks. Xiner (talk, email) 16:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Bravo, Settler. Xiner (talk, email) 16:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I try my best to catch formatting errors and restore these articles. Sometimes easier said than done... Settler 04:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Pelosi a communist?

I don't think that Nancy Pelosi is a communist, is she? Someone's trying to be funny.81.159.240.240 18:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

She's not a communist; however the Communist Party of the United States, isn't out-lawed. GoodDay 23:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

As it shouldn't be. It has every right to exist. --dool325 03:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Middle name?

The top of the article says her middle name is Patricia and her maiden name is D'Alesandro. However, the "Early life" section says she was born as Nancy D'Alesandro, with no mention of her middle name. If her middle name was added through religious ceremony, i.e. baptism, that should be mentioned. Rhythmnation2004 19:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone write her office an email or letter? Xiner (talk, email) 18:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Request article restriction.

I've seen alot of vandalism these last few days and I think it's time to lock this article for the non-account users. Obviously some people can't
act civilized even though they are against the content of this article. 62.16.202.221 19:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that this page needs semi-protection. Jasper23 19:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Article Format

I think this article needs to be restructured. Right now it is just a list of random positions and votes. There is no narrative and the list format invites random people to insert random things. Anybody have any thoughts on this matter? Jasper23 20:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Key votes on substantive issues are part of a politician's record and should be included in the article. However, too many of them are not useful for the average reader. Obviously, everything must be verifiable. Xiner (talk, email) 17:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think lists are very encyclopedic and this article reads very poorly. No well written article about a politician uses this format. A good guide is the Barak Obama page. That page looks nothing like this one. Jasper23 22:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

What about Barak_Obama#Senate_career, especially considering his short political career? Xiner (talk, email) 22:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Good Point. However, have you looked at the references on the the Pelosi page. A good amount of them are just vote records. Maybe we could pick out a few important sections and dump the rest. Take a look at the agricultural vote section on the Pelosi page. Quite a difference. Jasper23 22:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for succinctness, but I'm also afraid of being too much so. Please see this discussion above. Xiner (talk, email) 22:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Highest ranking female in the history of the American Federal government?

Certainly in the history of Congress. But when you speak of the American Federal government, you must also include the U.S. Supreme Court. Sandra Day O'Connor is arguably the most powerful female in the history of the American Federal government. It's close, anyway. MoodyGroove 18:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Day O'Connor was, one might argue, although you could rank the presidential succession line and not Supreme Court justices. Xiner (talk, email) 19:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

How about Pelosi, the highest ranking female in the presidential line of succession, in US history? GoodDay 20:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with the highest ranking female in the history of the US Congress? Although, if you ask me, first female Speaker of the House pretty much says it all. MoodyGroove 20:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

My point exactly, first female House Speaker covers highest ranking female in Congressional History. (There hasn't been yet, a female president pro tempore: which would be a Congressional equal/but behind Speaker in presidential succession). GoodDay 21:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

:::That's in the intro already. Xiner (talk, email) 21:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Maiden Name correction

Should be D'Alessandro, not D'Alesandro. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ForzaFabio (talk • contribs) 15:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, actually, the latter pulls up a lot more pertinent results on Google, so I think the former is a typo. I know Spanish, not Italian, but in Spanish there wouldn't be two s's. Xiner (talk, email) 15:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• • Well, more to the point, her own congressional biography has one S, which I think we can consider authoritative. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Reverted minimum wage edits

A user has reverted the revision:

As Speaker of the House, she also spearheaded the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 as part of the 100-Hour Plan. The Act raises the minimum wage in the United States and its territories but does not amend the Fair Labor Standards Act concerning American Samoa—its minimum wage is set by a committee appointed by the U.S. Department of Labor.[1] One Republican congressman who voted against the bill accused Pelosi of unethically benefiting a hometown company by the exclusion of the territory; Del Monte Foods is headquartered in Pelosi's district and Del Monte Foods' StarKist brand is a major employer in American Samoa for tuna processing.[2]

back to

As Speaker of the House, she also spearheaded the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 as part of the 100-Hour Plan. The Act raises the minimum wage in the United States and its territories except for American Samoa. The exclusion of American Samoa has attracted ethics criticism from one Republican congressman, since Del Monte Foods is headquartered in Pelosi's district and Del Monte Foods' StarKist brand is a major employer in American Samoa for tuna processing. [3]

It's worth noting that the text of the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 (which amends the Fair Labor Standards Act) in its current form is completely silent on the issue of American Samoa. There is no special exemption that was not there before Rep. George Miller introduced the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007. Settler 02:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems the editor is in the process of addressing this. I'll wait a while for further comment. Settler 02:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Face

There should be a section discussing what's wrong with her face. Any confirmed plastic surgery or botox overdoses? See, for example, Tina Fey's article and the section regarding her scar for precedent. Thats why I read this article, and I was disappointed to find that the answer isn't here. Maybe her aides removed it?

66.56.34.50 02:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this is preemptive seeing as I am sitting here watching the State of the Union now, but perhaps President Bush's statement about it being his "honor and privilege" to be the first President to start his address with "Madam Speaker" should be recorded?

I've noticed that she seems to be blinking a lot during the State of the Union speech.

Pelosi Blames Bush Administration for Media Reports on Use of Military Plane

WASHINGTON — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the Bush administration on Wednesday of publicly mischaracterizing her need for a larger military aircraft to travel back and forth from the West coast. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250781,00.html Crocoite 23:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• Not really particularly encyclopedic; in three days nobody will care, which might be a good definition of newsworthy but not encyclopedic information. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Its not official policy but I think that everyone should read the WP:DUST essay as it points to many pertinent policies. It is generally good practice to keep it in mind especially when editing WP:BLP. --Rtrev 05:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, good one! I'd not seen that before; thanks. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 05:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I've included information about the larger plane in the article, since it contradicts her recent positions about global warming and energy independence. I believe that it's notable when the third-highest ranking leader of the United States says, "Do as I say, not as I do." Don't you agree? I've also included information on Speaker Pelosi's voting record on abortion related issues, since there was absolutely no previous mention of that. Somehow, the Speaker's out-of-the-mainstream views on abortion have been completely ignored by Wikipedia until now. Isn't that peculiar? Dino 12:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe that it's notable when the third-highest ranking leader of the United States says, "Do as I say, not as I do." Don't you agree? It really doesn't matter what I believe, or what you believe. See WP:NPOV. We don't include things simply to express our point of view -- in this case, your point of view that she's being hypocritical. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

My opinion is not notable. The opinions of the Republican leadership and the editors of the New York Post, one of the largest circulation newspapers in the United States, are notable. I'm not the one who put this controversy back into the article, so it isn't just me who disagrees with you. I just moved it back up to where it belongs. Dino 16:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

There are some possible holes in that (anonymous?) editorial. The Associated Press [4] reports that "Neither the Speakers's office nor administration sources has ever specifically said that Pelosi has requested the modified 757." Also it effectively misquotes her on global warming--in the full quote she gave a timeline of 10 years. She never took a vow to never use fossil fuels in her transport ever again AFAIK ... Settler 16:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

No, she said that she would "do everything in my power to achieve energy independence ... and to stop global warming." It is within her power to use the C-20, which uses far less fuel for a cross-country trip than a C-32. In terms of fuel consumption per mile, the difference between these two aircraft is like the difference between a Honda Accord and a stretch limousine. If she had "vowed to never use fossil fuels in her transport ever again," she'd need to use a sailboat or a Conestoga wagon. I don't believe anyone had a problem with her using a C-20. The problem that people have is with the requested upgrade. By insisting on a plane that can travel from coast to coast without refueling, Pelosi would get the "unexpected" fringe benefit of luxurious accommodations. Pretexts are sometimes accurately diagnosed as pretexts. Reasonable people understand that the real reason for requesting a plane that can fly coast-to-coast might not be the fact that it can fly coast-to-coast. Dino 17:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• Another related article " Military: Pelosi Plane Based on Availability"

WASHINGTON — Republicans on Wednesday assailed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's request for access to an Air Force transport plane as an extravagance, though former Speaker Dennis Hastert flew in a military jet as well. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250848,00.html Crocoite 16:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• Another related article "White House Defends Pelosi Over Plane Request"

WASHINGTON — The White House on Thursday came to the defense of Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, describing as "silly" reports about her use of a large Air Force transport plane to travel back and forth from her West Coast district. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250848,00.html Crocoite 22:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Jpgordon, you have dismissed an editorial comment from one of the largest circulation newspapers in the United States, highlighting "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrisy from the third-highest ranking official in the most powerful government in the world, as "Freeper spin and vandalism." Would you care to discuss it? Dino 18:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I realize I'm fairly new here, but I don't think Wikipedia is required to include an "editorial comment" just because the New York Post said it. The Post editorial contained a textbook example of what Wikipedia considers "weasel words" ("Pelosi is said to want a top-of-the-line, Air Force passenger jet"), and moreover, as the Pelosi entry currently states, Pelosi never specifically requested a Boeing C-32 at all, rendering the Post comment irrelevant to begin with. While "reasonable people" may well "understand that the real reason for requesting a plane that can fly coast-to-coast might not be the fact that it can fly coast-to-coast," your belief that Pelosi has ulterior motives is unproven, and unprovable. It certainly can't be called a hard fact. Captain Annoying 20:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

You might be new here, but I think you understand matters perfectly. --BenBurch 21:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It surprised me that Dino needs to be reminded that Wikipedia is not a soapbox; his pronouncements about Pelosi's alleged hypocrisy show clearly his reasons for including the material: not that it improves the article, but that it furthers his own agenda. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

All politicians attract criticism, particularly when their actions and their words don't match. The higher-ranking the politician, the more criticism he or she will attract. This article has had far less criticism in its editing history than that of Peter Roskam, a congressman with barely one month of service, whose most notable achievement was that he defeated one of the darlings of the anti-war left, Tammy Duckworth.

We're probably going to disagree about how much criticism is too much; but I've reviewed over 100 Congressmen's articles in the past two weeks and universally, there is far more criticism in the Republicans' articles than in the Democrats'. And Jpgordon, please take note that BenBurch has Wikistalked me here and at the Bill Nelson article, in addition to the Peter Roskam article. Thank you.

I'm just trying to make the Republicans' articles and the Democrats' articles resemble one another. That's my agenda. Is that so terrible? The New York Post editorial is representative of a great deal more criticism of Pelosi that has never found its way into this article. If you're so dead-set against it, let's find some other criticism to take its place. There's plenty to choose from. Dino 02:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

My impression of Wikipedia is that if you have an agenda at all, you're doing something wrong. In this instance you are trying to impose your own opinion on an article that is supposed to contain facts, and just because you've found a sympathetic mouthpiece (the New York Post) to abet that doesn't make it any more valid. At no time did Nancy Pelosi ever specifically request a Boeing C-32 as her air transportation, yet you persist in pushing a non-factual opinion piece that tries to advance the baseless accusation that she did. Your all but blatant admission that you're doing this to try to exact tit-for-tat for what you consider to be unfairly slanted articles on Republicans only demonstrate that you are trying to use this site for purposes for which it was not intended. Captain Annoying 17:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm here now as well, Dino - (to protect Wikipedia) By the way... "The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor. This is distinct from following a contributor in order to clear repeated errors." Dino - what happened to this claim of yours? "My entire purpose here is to protect Wikipedia from being sued for libel, and Wikipedia administrators understand that." My entire purpose here - FAAFA 04:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm just trying to make the Republicans' articles and the Democrats' articles resemble one another. That's my agenda. Then a good idea would be to make Republican articles better, not Democrat articles worse. Otherwise, WP:POINT, really. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 04:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia balancing act

Then a good idea would be to make Republican articles better, not Democrat articles worse.

Jpgordon, how does including notable, well-sourced criticism "make ... Democrat articles worse"?

Dino - what happened to this claim of yours? "My entire purpose here is to protect Wikipedia from being sued for libel ..."

FAAFA, I observe that you've joined your friend in Wikistalking me over here. You're claiming it's "to clear repeated errors," but the fact of the matter is that it's a content dispute, I've tried to disengage, and the two of you won't let me.

Now that the immediate danger of Wikipedia being sued has passed, I've turned my attention to making Wikipedia articles better. I am as serious as a heart attack about WP:NPOV. In general, articles about Republicans contain a great deal more criticism than articles about Democrats. Here we have an article about the Speaker of the House with 20 years of House service, and her article is shorter and contains less criticism than an article about a freshman GOP by the name of Peter Roskam, who has one month of service.

If you think that's a fluke, and that Roskam's article is not representative, compare the Pelosi article with Dennis Hastert's. Again, the Republican's article is loaded with criticism compared to this one.

The goal of making the Republicans' articles and the Democrats' articles resemble one another more closely can be achieved by (1) making Republicans' articles less critical, or (2) making Democrats' articles more critical, or (3) both. I've chosen the third option. I hope that they will meet somewhere in the middle, and that we can all achieve consensus on the question of "how much criticism is too much," applying it equally to both Republicans and Democrats.

I will take whichever of the three options we can all reach a consensus about, if there's a substantial body of opinion claiming that the third option is unacceptable; but rest assured that one of the three options is needed and will be pursued. We can compare apples with apples (the Pelosi article with the Hastert article) or oranges with oranges (the Roskam article with the Melissa Bean article, for example). But in the end my point will be proven, and I suspect that all of you already realize that.

The New York Post editorial is notable criticism. Yet you choose to remove not just the excerpt from that editorial, but the entire section. Why? I've answered your question. Now it's your turn. This leaves the entire article almost devoid of criticism. Dino 05:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:DUST is why I removed it. My personal opinion (which is NOT relevent) is that I agree with those who contend this was a calculated, manufactured, bogus issue fueled by rightwing spinmeisters like Murdoch to get the focus off the $12 BILLION DOLLARS in cash (363 TONS) that went missing in Iraq - a slightly more important and GOP-damaging issue that was dominating the news cycle at the time. - FAAFA 05:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that moment of candor. You've admitted that the reason for removing it was ... no reason at all. Dino 05:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:DUST is a valid reason. Look at the egg on the faces of those who created the Jamil Hussein article, claiming he didn't exist. Now their claims are reduced to arguments over his last name. OUCH! (and yet another blow to the 'journalistic reputation' of Michelle Malkin) WP:DUST should be followed more, not less.Iaqi Source Is Real: Now What Do Conservative Bloggers Say? - FAAFA 05:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)...Excuse me. There was a reason. You just disagree with the reason. At the very start of this discussion a week ago. Someone mentioned the story, and I responded "not encyclopedic" because of its ephemeral importance, someone else referred to WP:DUST. You have tried, and failed, to gain consensus for the inclusion of this particular editorial opinion. Dust. Time to move on, perhaps; this one's dropped from the news already and never was worthy in the first place. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 05:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:DUST is a valid reason.

Then find some reliable, non-partisan sources supporting that reason. At Democratic Underground, everything bad about Democrats is an evil plot by Teh Rove, exquisitely timed to misdirect the gullible public's attention away from some genuine Republican crime. Let's see a reliable, non-partisan source.

Excuse me. There was a reason. You just disagree with the reason.

Jpgordon, I could name any number of scandals and controversies that were no longer in the news a week later, but somehow they linger on in Wikipedia articles about the Republican politicians that they were used to smear. The Peter Roskam article, before I started working on it, was a perfect example of a Rolodex full of one-week scandals that had been fluffed by the Duckworth campaign and its sycophants. These articles have to meet somewhere in the middle. We have to reach an agreement about the level of criticism that is acceptable, and apply it to both the articles about Republicans and the articles about Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats. Wikipedia must avoid not only favoritism, but the appearance of favoritism. Dino 12:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Dean, how about option (4) -- less bullshit in all articles? If you're looking at it as an equivalence of criticism, then really, let's make sure that Moby and Hitler have the same amount of criticism, then it's fair. Your position is ludicrous. The criterion should never be an equal amount of critism; the criterion should be verifiable fact and encyclopedic relevance. Until a scandal affects a vote, an election, or maybe a significant poll, it's not relevant, and it has no place in Wikipedia -- in articles about Republicans or Democrats. -- Joshua BishopRoby 20:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

If you're looking at it as an equivalence of criticism, then really, let's make sure that Moby and Hitler have the same amount of criticism, then it's fair.

I believe what you're saying (minus the sarcasm) is that an article about a convicted felon such as Dan Rostenkowski should contain more criticism than an article about someone with no criminal record, such as Peter Roskam. I couldn't agree more. But two similarly situated persons should have biographies that have the same amount of criticism. When one of them is a Republican and the other is a Democrat, we need to be especially careful to be sure that they have the same amount of criticism, to avoid the appearance of favoritism.

Until a scandal affects a vote, an election, or maybe a significant poll, it's not relevant, and it has no place in Wikipedia ...

You may be right, but how can anyone be the judge of that? Also, there's no indication that the Monica Lewinsky scandal affected an election or even a poll; are you saying that it shouldn't be mentioned in an article about Bill Clinton? Dino 21:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You are aware that Rostekowski's controversy happened years before the internet was completely viable and before the onset of investigative journalism as it now stands. I'm sure that if his problem had happened to anyone in the present, the controversy section would be huge. But as it is right now, you can't make a comparison between a present senator who has problems now with a senator 10 years ago. Gdo01 22:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

ROFLMAO! - You win a prize Dean - 1) start naming those Republican scandals. 2) you've been on Wiki 3 weeks and you're telling an admin with a 3 year history how to run Wiki 3) you're spouting tin foil hattery nonsense about DU. 4) don't copy Crockspots with his 'Teh Rove'. Have some originality! Think up your own childish wordplays (you can't use my Chimpy-Bush-Laden ™ either!} - Fairness and Accuracy for Delay, Abramoff, Ney, and especially Randy 'Duke' Cunningham 12:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Relentless mockery. Not a good idea under the circumstances. Dino 15:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

What is Dino attempting to do here? Show us any credible proof (and by credible, we mean NOT the editorial section of the New York Post!) of Pelosi ever requesting a C-32 plane, and then we'll add it in. That's all we're asking for. 12.149.141.19 22:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

He has none because there is none. I am supposed to assume good faith, but this appears to be an attempt to edit the article to make some sort of brittle partisan point. --BenBurch 23:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Partisanship and POV problems

You know what Dean? You and I actually agree that partisanship and POV issues are MAJOR problems for Wiki. One of the chief problems is that every contentious article has a group of partisans trying to sway it one way or another, and depending on the numbers, and how well they know WP, these partisans can be successful in turning ANY article into a hatchet job, or a glowing tribute, and not much can be done if you're in the minority. These partisans will spend hundreds of hours arguing about minor details - and the only way that the issue will be settled is through formal arbitration taking hundreds of more hours. Look at the arguments and RfA over Juan Cole for instance. This dispute has been going on since before I even got here. IMHO, I have the perfect solution. There are 100's of contentious articles that should be 'locked' and checked, then edited for POV by a team of experienced editors who have NO interest or feelings about the subject. The American political articles could be checked for POV and edited by Japanese Koi aficionados who don't even vote, for instance! Suggested changes would be debated on the talk pages, and no more than once a month the ones that are approved would be added to the article. The tens of thousand of hours wasted now by editors trying to affect POV could be spent actually improving Wiki because these fruitless battles would no longer exist. (are you listening Jimbo ;-) - FAAFA 07:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)