Talk:Rupert Sheldrake

Some recent edits

Alfonzo Green, I have to bring attention to some recent edits.

1. In this edit, you removed sourced material about Jung while asserting "No source cited for claim about Jung". If you had clicked on the link in the citation, you would have found the Jung reference.
2. Your removal of "various parapsychological claims involving" in the lead, with your comment, "Memory, perception and cognition do not fall under the heading of parapsychology".[1] But the article text does not say they fall under the heading of parapsychology. Sheldrake's parapsychological claims involve memory, telepathy, perception and cognition, as the article text says and as the refs support. For instance the Tomorrow's World experiment on perceiving hidden pictures.
3. You changed "Scientists and skeptics have labelled morphic resonance a pseudoscience" to "A few scientists..."[2] This grossly misrepresents the status of morphic resonance in the scientific community. Please see WP:PSCI and WP:FRINGE.
4. Your removal of the point that Sheldrake is criticized for publishing scientific results outside of peer review.[3] Your edit comment says, "Rutherford does not claim Sheldrake is avoiding peer review", but in the source Rutherford is making the point. One could argue that the article text could be phrased differently, but that is no excuse for outright removal of important sourced material.

There are still more edits to look at. vzaak (talk) 02:54, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

The article currently grossly misrepresents the views of a few people as the views of the scientific community at large. That is, Sheldrake's ideas have been rejected/not accepted by the scientific community, this is a clear fact, but the further point that it has been rejected as pseudoscience is based on taking only a handful of sources that make that particular claim and ignoring completely a greater number of similar quality sources that, while often fully acknowledging the lack of acceptance, have explicitly stated that Sheldrake's work is scientific, if unorthodox. Barleybannocks (talk) 09:40, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

vzaak, thanks for your input. The first edit corrected a factual error. Jung did not claim that collective memory has a physical basis. Though the source for this claim was Sheldrake, what Sheldrake actually said was that Jung believed the archetypes have a genetic basis. With your help, we now have a clear and accurate passage. This shows what editors can do when we work together to improve an article. The second edit removed a reference to parapsychology from a sentence sourced to Sheldrake despite the fact that Sheldrake does not use that term in conjunction with memory, perception and cognition. Though he mentions in passing that parapsychology involves telepathy, memory of past lives, clairvoyance and precognition, he deals only with telepathy, and his treatment of ordinary memory, perception and cognition is strictly in the context of morphic resonance, not parapsychology. The third edit reflects the fact that only a handful of scientists and "skeptics" have accused him of pseudoscience. The vast majority of cited scientists dispute only the theory itself, not its scientific status. To characterize scientists in general as viewing his work as pseudoscientific is inaccurate and reveals clear anti-Sheldrake bias, which is unsuitable for an editor working on his biography page. The fourth edit corrected the false impression that Rutherford accuses Sheldrake of avoiding peer review. First of all, Sheldrake has published extensively in peer reviewed journals, including many in the last ten years. So even if Rutherford did say this, he's simply wrong. To Rutherford's credit, however, he does not make this claim, merely noting that books are not peer reviewed prior to publication. Alfonzo Green (talk) 00:17, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Alfonzo,

• You say "Jung did not claim that collective memory has a physical basis". The source says, "Jung tried to explain the inheritance of the collective unconscious physically". If you had thought the wording was wrong, the natural step would be to fix it. Instead, you deleted the entire thing, claiming, "No source cited for claim about Jung". If in fact you looked at the source and found Jung, then you shouldn't have written in the edit comment that no source was cited for Jung.

• The Parapsychology section in A New Science of Life mentions not only telepathy but memories of past lives and other psychic phenomena. I understand Sheldrake's view that paranormal should eventually be called normal, and supernatural be called natural, but in terms of communicating to the reader what these claims entail, in a single sentence, the use of "parapsychological" is the best descriptor. We can't describe the nuances of Sheldrake's philosophy in the lead. It's also difficult to be the Perrott-Warrick director while disavowing the terms associated with it. The deletion of "parapsychological" is not a big problem, just one that leads to less clarity and potential confusion.

• The sentence in the lead about pseudoscience was carefully crafted and has been stable for a while. Please look at the sources backing it up. Additionally, see WP:FRINGE, WP:PSCI, and Arb/PS.

• Rutherford makes an important point about peer review, and if you thought it was worded improperly, the natural step would be to fix it. Outright deletion of sourced criticism is unlikely to be beneficial to the article. Deletion of any sourced material should usually be discussed first.

• I've only looked briefly at the Rose edits, which appear to be more deletion of sourced criticism.

• In my last edit I linked to the RfC proposal regarding "hypothesis" and "biologist", and asked you to make your case there. You have not yet done so. These issues have been ongoing, and the RfC proposal aims to address them. Please participate in the process that has already been laid out.

• You made some bold changes. I explained the problems I saw in those changes in this thread, and linked to the explanation in my revert. The article has been fairly stable, and significant changes require discussion. Please read WP:BRD. Instead of pursing the bold-revert-discuss cycle, you are now warring again. This is contrary to how Wikipedia was intended to function. Please use this talk page to convince others that your changes should be made, instead of warring to get them in.

vzaak (talk) 03:42, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• The key word is inheritance. Jung proposed a physical basis for the inheritance of archetypes within the collective unconscious. The passage I deleted had Jung asserting a physical basis for the collective unconscious, something Jung would never have claimed, nor did the source (Sheldrake) attribute this claim to him. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
• The Parapsychology section does not mention ordinary memory, perception or cognition. To imply that Sheldrake considers these things paranormal is misleading in the extreme. Sheldrake states that any real phenomenon should be called normal not paranormal. He has never claimed that supernatural be called natural. His work has no basis whatever in supernatural claims. I have no problem with referencing parapsychology in the article, so long as it doesn't encompass topics that nobody, including Sheldrake, considers paranormal. If you want parapsychology in the lead, you'll have to figure out another way to work it in. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
• To state that scientists view his work as pseudoscience is to imply consensus among scientists. For that claim, you need a source. Instead the only sources we have that specify pseudoscience are people expressing their own individual view, not asserting a consensus. Therefore without a modifier such as "a few" or "some," the material is unsourced and cannot stand. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
• The passage looks fine it's now written. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
• The Rose section had way more of Rose than Sheldrake. I hope I've brought balance to it, and I'd like to know if you agree. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Who's warring? I would say neither of us. We have disagreements, and through the process of editing and discussing, we're beginning to make progress. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I disagree that the sentence in the third paragraph[4] on "pseudoscience" is "carefully crafted", and we need to pay more attention to WP:FRINGE:

• "Scientists and skeptics have labelled" is numerically vague. It gives the misleading impression that ALL "Scientists and skeptics have labelled". Since the vast majority of scientists and skeptics have not commented, I think we have to qualify it as "Some scientists and skeptics have labelled". See WP:FRINGE/IPA
• "citing a lack of evidence" suggests to me a reference to a peer-reviewed paper. The only peer-reviewed paper I am aware of is that by Rose, in which case we should provide attributions and inline citation, in order to provide the appropriate context. See WP:FRINGE "Sourcing and attribution" and WP:FRINGE Inline attribution --Iantresman (talk) 13:32, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

These indications are in the references that have been given to you. By trying to claim that "only some" of the scientific community rejects him, you're trying to weasel out of the undeniable fact that his work has not achieved scientific consensus, and attempting to mislead readers that this isn't the case. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:00, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Barney, you are using a false dichotomy. You are treating rejected/not-accepted as being the same as pseudoscience. It isn't. Thus, while Sheldrake has certainly not been accepted by the scientific community (nobody disputes this), there is no reason to make the further claim that the vast majority consider it pseudoscience. Indeed, we have numerous sources that, as you must be aware, make this very point/distinction. Barleybannocks (talk) 14:09, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

This is simply not true. The sources show it's pseudoscience, and explain why it's pseudoscience. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, let's not pretend it isn't a duck by pretending that "not enough" sources claim it is. This is patently absurd. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:33, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

It is obviously true. We have unanimous agreement that Sheldrake's ideas have been rejected/not accepted but significant disagreement about whether it is pseudoscience. That is, a small group of people (including some scientists) have said it is pseudoscience and a small group of people (including some scientists) who say it is not. Thus the article should reflect the rejection/non-acceptance as the view of the scientific community and not misrepresent the further views of a tiny number of people as the universal view while altogether ignoring an equal number of (similar quality in terms of sources) further views to the contrary. As I said, you are using a false dichotomy, and you are then ignoring all the sources which demonstrate the falsity of your answer to that false dichotomy. Barleybannocks (talk) 14:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - because a few sources don't explicitly call it "pseudoscience" but either describe pseudoscience without using the word, or use alternative wording such as "bad science", "nonsense" "completely wrong" or similar, doesn't mean that those authors think that Sheldrake's work is "science", or that they think Sheldrake's work isn't pseudoscience. You are trying to weasel the sources and attempting to get the article to deny what the sources plainly say. This isn't conducive to Wikipedia and it isn't in line with policy or common sense. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:53, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Barney, firstly, I am not denying that some sources call it pseudoscience. I fully accept that point. As does everyone here. However, you are ignoring, and denying the existence of, and refusing to allow the article to reflect the views expressed in, numerous high-quality sources that explicitly say that Sheldrake's work is not pseudoscience. The New Scientist review, cited above eg, says that books/ideas such as Sheldrake's are the "life's blood of science". Thus, as noted, you are using a false dichotomy, and giving a misleading answer to that false dichotomy by ignoring all the sources that disagree with your particular take on this issue. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

@Barney: Every editor supports noting that some scientists have called Sheldrake's work pseudoscience, and most scientist reject it. But I utterly reject that because YOU interpret a rejection as worded in such a way that MAY be consistent as pseudoscience, then that is what was meant.

• WP:FRINGE: "Wikipedia is not a forum for original research... it is of vital importance that [editors] simply restate what is said by independent secondary sources of reasonable reliability and quality."
• WP:FRINGE: "articles should not contain any novel analysis or synthesis"
• WP:SYNTH: "Do not [..] reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources."
• WP:GRAPEVINE: "Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced; that is a conjectural interpretation of a source"
• WP:LABEL: "The prefix pseudo- [..] Use these in articles only when they are in wide use externally (e.g. Watergate), with in-text attribution if in doubt."
• WP:PRIMARY: "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources"

--Iantresman (talk) 15:19, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

What amazes me Iantresman (talk · contribs) is your constant citing of these (ignoring the inconvenient WP:FRINGE), while applying exactly what it says not to do to these sources to try to minimise criticism in this article. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:04, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Let's take a look at one example above, WP:SYNTH. If we consider any source which rejects Sheldrake, WP:SYNTH tells us not reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated. Concluding that rejection, for whatever reason, amounts to pseudoscience would clearly fail WP:SYNTH, and contradicts your comment. Please spell it out for me, with specific examples and quotes if you wish to make a case. --Iantresman (talk) 17:58, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

The most egregious case is the attempt to claim that "just" because "only a few" sources explicitly say it's pseudoscience, while others express views that are essentially indistinguishable by any plain reading, then we should not mention the p-word. In other words, what the sources directly say. Yet, this is the most important link in the entire article. Without it we cannot explain the background to what is and isn't science. The key to this is pretending that the sources don't support what they plainly do support. No amount of whining about the sources will get you out of this. The purpose of the lead is to summarise the contents of the article. Summarising, i.e. compressing, is allowed. Lying about sources isn't. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:14, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I think one of the problems, Barney, is your "essentially indistinguishable! claim that you are using to allow you to use a very specific term "pseudoscience" to stand for any number of other claims such as "lacking evidence" or inconsistent with other hypotheses" or "rejected" and such like. Moreover, even if we granted that false equivalence (which we should not), there are just as many other sources, equal in authority, which explicitly say Sheldrake's work is not psuedoscience. Thus you are misrepresenting various views as one view and ignoring all the contradictory views completely. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

No. These claims are also made (check the sources), and they explain why this is pseudoscience. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Not all of the critical sources say it is pseudoscience at all. And even if many/most of the critical sources did say that (they don't), we still have an at least equal number of sources that explicitly disagree. Thus the article does not accurately represent the diverse views on the scientific status of Sheldrake's work. All agree it has been rejected/not-accepted, but there is significant disagreement whether it is pseudoscience. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:13, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

None of the reliable, critical sources deny that it is pseudoscience. That is the heart of the matter; your wishful thinking that a source that doesn't use the word "pseudoscience" but uses some alternative description (such as "bad science" "not scientific" "very wrong" etc), while maintaining the same general opinion, by way of a false dichotomy therefore describes Sheldrake's work as not being pseudoscientific and therefore being scientific. Wave your magic wand and poof! A source which is clearly critical by any fair reading now turns into a positive endorsement! Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:19, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Plenty reliable sources explicitly say that Sheldrake's work is scientific. Thus, firstly, we should not pretend, as you wish to do, that these sources don't exist; and, secondly, only go with those sources that say pseudoscience (or something that could be construed as pseudoscience if one construes sloppily). And I'm not saying the negative sources are positive. I fully accept they are negative. They just don't say explicitly what you imagine they do. Moreover there are plenty sources, as noted, that while acknowledging the lack of acceptance praise Sheldrake for remaining true to science. These are the sources I am saying are positive about the scientific status of his work, and these are the sources you are pretending don't exist. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Alfonzo Green, don't split up people's comments; it needs to be clear who said what. I've moved your comments below mine.

• You've misunderstood my point about Jung. Your edit comment said, "No source cited for claim about Jung", however there was in fact a source cited for Jung. If your problem was with the wording in the article, then you should have changed the wording instead of deleting the material entirely. You haven't responded to the point I made: If in fact you looked at the source and found Jung, then you shouldn't have written in the edit comment that no source was cited for Jung.

• A similar thing happened with the Rutherford comment. You found a place where you disagreed with the wording, and instead of making an appropriate fix, you deleted the material.

• Both the Jung part and the Rutherford part have now been changed to your satisfaction. The process of arriving at this result should have not involved you repeatedly deleting material.

• There is no question that the claims Sheldrake makes fall into the field of parapsychology. He was the Perrott-Warrick director. He has published in parapsychology journals. The purpose of the article is to communicate to the reader what kind of claims these are. The article can later explain the nuances of how Sheldrake wants terminology to be used, but that level of detail is not necessary for the lead. Re supernatural, I was merely referring to the "natural, not supernatural" statements that Sheldrake makes with regard to psychic phenomena.

• Re pseudoscience, please see WP:FRINGE. Under the requirements you appear to be imposing on calling something pseudoscience, it would seem that nothing could be called pseudoscience. The references in the article provide more than enough support for the article text.

• Re "Who's warring?", you are continuing to war, imposing your changes without convincing others of them. This is not the normal editorial process or the expected standard of behavior. Please read WP:BRD, and use this talk page to convince others that your changes should be made, instead of warring to get them in.

vzaak (talk) 17:46, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

The source cited for the Jung claim did not make that claim. Therefore no source was cited for the Jung claim. The attribution to Rutherford was also inaccurate, so I deleted it. You have now changed the wording so that it's no longer inaccurate, and that's fine. Sheldrake's primary claim is about biology. Where his central claim is extended to include telepathy, then this and only this also falls under the heading of parapsychology. This has no bearing on his treatment of memory, perception and cognition. Sheldrake does not argue that these phenomena fall under the heading of parapsychology, so using him as a source is flat-out wrong. For you or any other editor to place these phenomena under the heading of parapsychology is a clear example of WP:OR. Please stop reverting my attempts at correcting this passage. As to pseudoscience, I recognize that a few people have accused Sheldrake of pseudoscience, and I see no reason why this can't be included in the article. I merely insist that we make it clear that only a few scientists apply this label to him. We have no sources for the claim that the scientific community in general views his work as pseudoscience, only that the scientific community believes Sheldrake's hypothesis is wrong. I've made no attempt to determine what can and cannot be called pseudoscience, as this would obviously be WP:OR. I am trying to eliminate inaccurate, unsourced material. You are persistently restoring it without convincing anyone. Again, who's edit warring?

One more point. The conservation of energy is a law, and if you don't believe me, look it up on Wikipedia. It cannot be referred to simply as a fact because it cannot be directly observed. Conservation of energy means that energy is always conserved in the course of transactions, and we cannot observe every single instance of this law, past, present and future. To label it a fact is to imply that at certain times the conservation of energy has in fact been observed. In other words, you're trivializing this principle. This is a disservice to science, and it will not stand. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:32, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

The Law of Conservation is directly observed via Noether's Theorem to be a factual aspect of our reality. Any claim to the contrary is simply ignorant. jps (talk) 02:59, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

• The point about Jung and Rutherford is that you took what you considered a technical inaccuracy as a license to delete sourced material. If you think criticism in the article is not properly worded then you should change it rather than delete it. Removing criticism is not a good practice and, especially with repeated removals, is disruptive.
• There's no doubt that Sheldrake knows that he studies phenomena that are classified as parapsychology, and there's no doubt that that's the most accurate category to communicate to readers. If I understand your argument correctly, we merely need more citations explicitly mentioning parapsychology, such as his papers published in parapsychology journals.
• Have you looked at the sources regarding pseudoscience? Also see WP:FRINGE.
• You are still continuing to war, even after I twice asked that you follow WP:BRD and discuss these edits. The current article has been relatively stable, and you should focus on convincing others of these changes instead of warring.

vzaak (talk) 01:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with deleting inaccurate material. If another editor wants to restore it, that's fine by me so long as it's been fixed. While telepathy falls under the heading of parapsychology, to portray the study of ordinary memory, perception and cognition as parapsychology is simply bizarre and reflects badly not just on the Sheldrake article but on Wikipedia in general. Same goes for reducing the status of the conservation of energy from a law to a mere fact. This is a simple issue of competence. Are you competent to edit articles on science? Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing innaccurate in the article, despite these assertions, Alfonzo Green (talk · contribs). Please stop pretending you have consensus here when the consensus is that WP:FRINGE applies. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Please read the above discussion before commenting. Vzaak agrees the Jung and Rutherford references were incorrect but says I should have fixed them instead of deleting them. As to WP:FRINGE there's no consensus here for the very simple reason that it doesn't apply. According to WP:FRINGE, "A theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea..." This is not an article about a mainstream idea. It's an article about Sheldrake and his idea, which must be presented fairly in accord with WP:NPOV.

In pargraph 3, the article says "Sheldrake .. advocates questioning various underlying assumptions and modern scientific facts"[5] I can't see the references mentioning him question any "facts". The first reference [12] is to Sheldrake's own book, but no page number is provided, so it is difficult to check, and the second reference [13] doesn't mention Sheldrake at all. Can you help clarify? --Iantresman (talk) 22:51, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Energy which is measurably conserved in a closed system is not a law but a simple fact. Sheldrake does not question that conservation of energy has been observed many times in many different settings. What Sheldrake questions is specifically the lawfulness of energy conservation, the idea that it must be conserved in every instance, past, present and future. He is not questioning observable facts, and the disputed sentence needs to reflect that. This is exactly the sort of problem that crops up when editors unfamiliar with the subject-matter try to impose their view. Alfonzo Green (talk) 00:36, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

This is just plain wrong. The fact that energy must be conserved in every instance past, present, and future is the result of deep symmetries in nature that exist (specifically, time symmetry). To the extent that microphysical laws work the same forward and backward in time, energy is conserved. That is the essence of Noether's Theorem. If anything is a fact, this is something that is. To deny it is to deny something fundamental about all of physics: that is to say to deny the lawfulness of the Law of Conservation of Energy is to claim either that the models of physics are wrong or that there is an aspect of microphysics which is not time reversible (note that you cannot hang your hat on the Boltzmann H-theorem for this because that is an emergent quality of macroscopic systems: it does not work for the fundamental laws of physics). Those who argue otherwise are profoundly ignorant of physics. And that's all there is to say about that. jps (talk) 03:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Alfonzo, you continue to war, imposing your edits without consensus. The article has been fairly stable, and it's your job to convince others of your changes on this talk page. The article text is properly supported by the sources, and you must explain where you disagree, citing sources, without providing interpretive original research. You have not participated in the RfC; the "hypothesis" argument is still blank. Changes described in the RfC should only be done after the RfC is completed. I strongly suggest we follow Guy's advice in Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#The_way_forward, items 1 to 7 in particular. vzaak (talk) 00:20, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Vzaak, there is no consensus for your preferred version, and the only reason it appeared "stable" was because of the ongoing blanket reverts without discussion for any change at all. I made a significant number of changes today, and yet, without discussion, you simply undid all of them. Please explain what you take issue with as regards my edits. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 00:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

For you to say there is no consensus it bordering on dishonesty. I welcome Vzaak returning the page to some sort of balance. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:06, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

sokal affair

I removed some commentary on the sokal affair because it has nothing to do with Sheldrake. The criticisms etc are about the publication of the article and have no bearing on anyone mentioned in passing therein. Barleybannocks (talk) 02:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

David added that commentary. I removed it.[6] David added it again, citing something about original research, which I never understood. vzaak (talk) 02:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I see Barney has added the commentary again. This isn't about Sheldrake and seems to be included only to get some very negative statements into the article as if they are about Sheldrake when they are not. Please explain the relevance of the commentary here.Barleybannocks (talk) 11:58, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

• As the cited sources clearly show, others consider this to be relevant. We should reflect what the sources say, not what we personally believe. Guy (Help!) 12:31, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree the Sokal affair is relevant, and that's why I left the reference to it, and a brief description of it, in the article. What is not relevant is to take the genertal commentary (in the form of criticisms) about the Sokal affair and imply they have anything much to do with Sheldrake per se. They do not. But hey, any chance to get some negative words into the article, eh.Barleybannocks (talk) 12:36, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The current veriosn as of now is:

Sheldrake's work was amongst those cited in a faux research paper written by Alan Sokal and submitted to Social Text.[104] In 1996, the journal published the paper as if it represented real scientific research,[105] an event which columnist George F. Will described as "a hilarious hoax which reveals the gaudy silliness of some academics"[105] and which has come to be known as the Sokal affair.

This seems to me to be perfectly acceptable. But see below... Guy (Help!) 12:52, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The problem is with "which reveals the gaudy silliness of some academics" and "as if it represented real scientific research" which are both about the Sokal affair and not about Sheldrake in any meaningful way. Thus to include them in the Sheldrake article is to imply that in some way they are a commentary on Sheldrake when they are not. This is misleading and completely wrong in a BLP since it represents a disingenuous attempt to misdirect the criticism from its intended target onto the subject of this article.Barleybannocks (talk) 12:58, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You and I are familiar with the Sokal hoax. Readers may well not be. The comment is a direct quote about the Sokal hoax and is valid in framing it. Feel free to suggest a better quote that sums up the hoax and what it means. In context, the inclusion of Sheldrake's ideas was deliberate, was intended to highlight a credulous approach to a certain sort of argument, so was directly relevant to the purpose and nature of the hoax, yes? Guy (Help!) 13:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

IU think the first sentence does the job reasonably well. It was a hoax paper that got published that mentions Sheldrake and coopts some of his terminology. The further views about that hoax have no bearing on Sheldrake and have no place in the article - especially not in a way that implies some negativity with regard to Sheldrake and/or his views. Barleybannocks (talk) 13:37, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

There are many forms of hoax. The specific point of the Sokal hoax was to highlight the credulous nature of those participating in sciencey-sounding but unscientific disciplines. That's what we need to explain. Feel free to suggest an alternative quote that makes this point. Guy (Help!) 13:43, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is a completely peripheral character in the hoax. Sokal simply borrowed some terminology and wrote a load of ruubbish. The commentary on that hoax therefore has nothing to do with Sheldrake's actual work, and the criticisms of particular academics mentioned has nothing to do with Sheldrake. Thus the quote that some here want to include is being included to impugn Sheldrake by the slightest of associations.Barleybannocks (talk) 14:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

He is indeed. But the reference to Sheldrake was nonetheless calculated, and is relevant to this article according to independent sources. What other quote would you substitute in order to maintain the necessary context, while being less offensive to your beliefs? Guy (Help!) 15:59, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I have already written my preferred version - it removed the slur by association about academics other than Sheldrake, and accurately characterises the deliberate mischaracterisation of Sheldrake by Sokal as part of his hoax. You probably didn't see it because it was only up for a few minutes as Barney appears to have carte blanche to undo changes any number of times (4 at the moment) in one day. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:41, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

So, you refuse to even countenance compromise by suggesting an alternative quote that provides the context without offending your beliefs, and this is somehow everybody else's problem. Except that it isn't, it's one more black mark against you. See how this works? Guy (Help!) 19:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, I have already compromised. I rewrote the passage to give a fairer impression of Sheldrake's lack of substantive involvement in the issue. Here [7] As for your black mark stuff, you really should retract that now given that it is based on a simple error. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You appear not to understand what compromise means. You inserted different wording, others then tweaked that, you want to revert to your own wording. That's not compromise, that#'s ownership, which is the opposite. Do feel free to suggest a quote which provides the necessary context without offending our beliefs. Guy (Help!) 19:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

It is of no consequence whether your beliefs are offended. That's the first point. The second point is that I did put in a compromised version that you have failed to even comment on. The fact is that the negative quote is misleading inasmuch as it looks like Sheldrake is being criticised when it was those who published the article that were being criticised. And this kind of misrepresentation of sources appears throughout the article which is, at present, appalling (possibly due to the lack of knowledge of the subject matter of those who have taken it upon themselves to control the article). 19:29, 30 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs)

I have no beliefs to offend here. You are the one advocating a non-standard view of the world. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You said "Do feel free to suggest a quote which provides the necessary context without offending our beliefs" and then you said "I have no beliefs to offend here". Seems both can't be right. You also suggest I am advocating a non-standard view of the world in my reading of the Sokal affair. One can only guess what kind of fantastic view of the world you have if you think the Sokal affair, and all commentary on it, is about Sheldrake. It isn't, he is a very peripheral figure, and that's pretty much a stonewall fact. Thus the use of disparaging remarks about the incident as if they refer to Sheldrake is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:58, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The quote says that "the journal published the paper as if it represented real scientific research". But Wills says the magazine published it as "serious scholarship"[8] (unless there is a more specific quotation). That is not the same thing. We shouldn't be saying anything about Sokal's parody, which gives the impression that it refers to Sheldrake, unless Sheldrake is specifically mentioned. I have no problems mentioning the Sokal affair in principle. --Iantresman (talk) 23:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Sokal himself borrowed some of Sheldrake's terminology and invented a view which he acknowledges Sheldrake does not hold, and attributed that view to Sheldrake for the purposes of the hoax article. He also referenced numerous other people. Thus the criticism of those who published Sokal's article has nothing to do with Sheldrake even though the article here clearly implies it does. The Sokal affair, then, should indeed feature in the article, but only as a brief additional fact, and certainly not as any kind of stick with which to beat Sheldrake.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Have put my proposed compromise version in the article. Before adding the criticism about the Sokal affair itself, please explain it's relevance to Sheldrake whose ideas were not presented genuinely and thus the (previously included) criticism in no way relates to anything Sheldrake has actually done.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:26, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Your "compromise" is obdurate refusal to compromise. You are now on notice. As a single purpose account, your tendentious editing of this article is a problem. Portraying removal (yet again) of the text as a "compromise" instead of suggesting a better quote to illustrate the problem is disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. Guy (Help!) 20:23, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Just for the record, I offered two different versions of the article, as well the complete removal of one sentence, as an offer of compromise. You have refused to even acknowledge the existence of these suggestions. Thus you appraisal of the situation is inaccurate. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The way forward

I think we should establish some points of common ground, and some ground rules.

My thoughts are thus:

• WP:BLP is important. When writing a biography we must be accurate and fair. That does not mean we must be sympathetic. See Andrew Wakefield (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for a biography that is scrupulously accurate, but clearly not sympathetic.
• WP:FRINGE is important. In matters of science, Wikipedia reflects the scientific consensus view, because in science that is the neutral point of view - it necessarily and by definition encompasses all significant views.
• This article covers two subjects: Rupert Sheldrake and his conjecture of morphic resonance.
• The sources robustly support the fact that morphic resonance is pseudoscientific and lacks rigour.
• The sources robustly support the fact that concepts such as conservation of energy and thermodynamics are scientifically accepted as facts, to the point that any observation seemingly contradicting them will be investigated until the inevitable experimental error is located.

My personal view is that Sheldrake's insistence that these are mere dogmas springs from his own dogmatic refusal to accept that the contradiction of his own conjectures by these facts, indicates that his conjectures are wrong. But that is my personal view.

To make progress the following seems to me to be necessary:

1. Proposed changes should be discussed before implementation, to reduce the edit warring.
2. Proposed changes should be specific:
   1. What is wrong
   2. What change should be made
   3. On what basis, by reference to reliable independent sources
3. The basis for changing content should be how we would represent these facts in the absence of Sheldrake's conjectures. For example, in our articles on conservation of energy and perpetual motion, how do we describe them? Do we represent any significant dissent from the consensus view?
4. Discussion should be specific and not based on the abstract.
5. The scientific consensus is that Sheldrake's ideas are wrong. If your argument begins from the premise that Sheldrake is right, then do not make that argument because it will not be accepted and will only stoke the fires.
6. The consensus of independent sources is that Sheldrake is wrong. If your argument begins from the premise that he is insane, a fraud, a liar or whatever, then do not make that argument because I will personally wield the banhammer.
7. A valid Wikipedia biography about Sheldrake will be seen as fair by any dispassionate observer. Sheldrake is, by definition, not a dispassionate observer. Whether or not he likes the article is, and must be, irrelevant, what is important is that we are accurate and fair.

That's my view. For the record I think David in DC has made some sensible suggestions and has sound instincts, I know he has said he has left this article but if people can work with him and reach agreement then that indicates that things are being done right. Some other editors are not helping. I invite them to find something else to do and leave this to others. Anybody whose edits relate solely or primarily to this article, should be careful. We know that there is off-wiki solicitation to promote a particular POV, we have been there many times. Single-purpose advocacy accounts face a low bar to removal. Guy (Help!) 13:17, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Above you say "The sources robustly support the fact that morphic resonance is pseudoscientific and lacks rigour". This is wrong. The sources support the idea that morphic resonance has not been accepted by the scientific community and that some have gone further and said it is pseudoscience, while (an equal number of) others have said that it is science, some have said good science, even if wrong. This distinction seems not to be understood, and thus the constant conflation of wrong/rejected/not-accepted with pseudoscience is one of the main stumbling blocks to progress. That is, there are at least three views of Sheldrake's work: right, wrong and science, wrong and pseudoscience. Nobody is arguing the first, many are arguing the second, while others see no difference between the second and the third.Barleybannocks (talk) 13:50, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You also suggest that morphic resonance is the only aspect of Sheldrake's work this article is about. That is false. Thus we must be careful not to lump all the views of Sheldrake and his work together as if, eg, Science Set Free, was a book primarily about morphic resonance and any criticisms of one automatically carry over into every aspect of any of his other work.Barleybannocks (talk) 13:59, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The first time I heard of Sheldrake was in relation to this discussion. There is no real room for doubt that morphic resonance is pseudoscience. That particular ship has already sailed. It's not god science because it is unfalsifiable and because the reslts apparently depend on how Sheldrake decides to interpret them. The test of good science is explanatory power, and the insights obtained when others build on it. There is no explanatory power and few if any have built on it.

So, you're arguing about The Truth™, and that is not going to help. I don't care how passionately you believe in Sheldrake's theories, they are bunk, as far as the scientific community is concerned. We won't change what we say about that until the scientific consensus changes, and that won't happen because instead of trying to persuade them through science, Sheldrake instead chooses to cast doubt on conservation of energy - an approach which more or less guarantees ridicule.

All this is perfectly normal in a new editor who has arrived solely to Right Great Wrongs, but it's not going to work, I'm afraid.

Any specific errors of fact you'd like to point out in the article? Guy (Help!) 15:55, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

When you say there is no real room for doubt, that's your opinion, and as such, irrelevant. The sources, are split on the question of pseudoscience wjile agreeing that Sheldrake's ideas have not been accepted. Unclear why this is so difficult a point to grasp. As for your appraisal of my purpose here, you are quite wrong. I am endeavouring to improve the article by accurately representing the sources (ie, Sheldrake not accepted but dispute over the scientific status of his work), as opposed to ignoring them. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:34, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

It's my judgment of the facts, speaking as a seasoned Wikipedian, administrator, email response volunteer, and long time WP:BLP patroller. And your opinion is yours as a single purpose account whose only input to Wikipedia has been in support of a fringe point of view. I think I know whic of us has a better grasp of how this fits with Wikipedia policy and practice. But you miss the point - see above. Guy (Help!) 19:02, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

@Guy TED, originally called his work pseudoscience, but then retracted.[9] Since you seem to be basing your opinion on the original TED source, there is now doubt. I have no problem including TED's original opinion, and retraction. There are more sources that also described some of Sheldrake's work as pseudoscience (I included one in the article myself)[10], and we should include them, but to suggest that this is WP:TRUTH is not reflected by other sources, which do not concur (many reliable secondary sources provided above). Also for your own benefit, I do not support morphic resonance (I'm not aware of suffient evidnece supporting it), and I am not aware of any evidence that sufficiently supports telepathy. --Iantresman (talk) 19:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Whatever it is, science it ain't. So, to get tot he substantive point, the article as-is more or less correctly reflects the facts, and changes should be focused, organic and based on references to independent sources. The existing debate that goes to fundamental disputes over whether his views are valid science or nonsense is sterile and unproductive, becaue the ocnsensus is clearly that his views are nonsense. Read the comment from quantum flapdoodler par excellence Deepak Chopra. Sheldrake's ideas are mysticism dressed up as science, and that's how scientists view them. Actually scratch that: most scientists completely ignore him because his ideas have no explanatory power, are unfalsifiable, and provide nothing that scientists can use in any context. Guy (Help!) 19:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Guy, when you say, "science it ain't" there are a large number of reliable scientific sources that disagree with you. And when you say it is unfalsifiable, there are a large number of scientific sources that disagree with you. And when you say it is of no use in any context, there are a large number of sources that disagree with you. How does your opinion get to override all these solid scientific, and other, sources? Barleybannocks (talk) 19:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there is no dispute that some scientists have criticised Sheldrake's work as pseudoscience, non-scientific, lacking evidence, etc, and there is no doubt that we should include these facts in the article. I am sure we are in agreement there. But we have reliable secondary sources that do not concur. That is not my opinion. It does not mean I support Sheldrake, or his work, or that I think the other sources are correct. But the demarcation problem tells us that it is not necessarily clear cut, WP:NPOV tells us to describe these views neutrally, and not as WP:TRUTH. --Iantresman (talk) 19:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Iantresman, and that's pretty much my view. I have always said that the fact some have called his work pseudoscience should be in the article, but I also think that other sources, which dispute this, should be covered. There is no dispute that Sheldrake's work has not been received well, but the further point about pseudoscience is clearly not simply a matter of fact. This contrasts with, eg, Sheldrake being a biologist, which is a fact, and a fact supported by around 30 sources of every conceivable type. Yet that, I notice, is still excluded from the article's introductory line in a way that clearly breaches wikipedia precedent. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

But these are not scientific sources, they are philosophical. That is the important point. Guy (Help!) 22:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Guy, which sources are you referring to? --Iantresman (talk) 22:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Here are six scientists who argue Sheldrake is doing science rather than pseudoscience.

Marc Bekoff, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder [11]

Menas C. Kafatos, Ph.D., is the Fletcher Jones Endowed Professor of Computational Physics and the Director of the Center of Excellence at Chapman University [12]

Stuart Hameroff, MD, Professor of Anesthesiology and Psychology, Director, Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona [13]

Rudolph E. Tanzi, Ph.D., Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard University, Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital [14]

Neil Theise, MD, Professor, Pathology and Medicine, (Division of Digestive Diseases) Beth Israel Medical Center - Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York [15]

Brian Josephson, Nobel Laureate in Physics.

And there are about ten more listed above at various places on this talk page. Why are these sources being overridden by editors' opinions? Barleybannocks (talk) 23:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. We know about Josephson. Most of the rest seem to be Deepak Chopra's alternative medicine buddies; that's OK, but it isn't mainstream. Berkoff is more on the weird environmentalist perspective, but he doesn't support Sheldrake's ideas either, just argues that they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Let's not be silly and pretend that these sources are mainstream, or say he's doing science. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is claiming these scientists support the veracity of Sheldrake's ideas. The point, which has been made over 20 times now, is that they reject the accusation of pseudoscience against Sheldrake. Thus the article should reflect the sources on this point and not merely the opinions of editors here. Also, whether these people are friends of Chopra is of no consequence - they have excellent scientific credentials, and thus they count clearly, easily, without dispute, as scientists (your opinion to the contrary notwithstanding). Barleybannocks (talk) 23:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

And, Barney, your claim that these people are all primarily altmed supporters (who can therefore be dismissed) would seem to have been cut from whole cloth. Sigh. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, changing tack Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - going back to the start of this thread. Jzg (talk · contribs) says (paraphrasing) "do not be so stupid as to attempt to dispute that this article is Fringe". Your response? "But please, it isn't fringe, here's a sidetrack". It is really begging for the inevitable topic ban. So some "scientists" sign a letter. Answer this question: Where is the research they are doing with respect to this groundbreaking theory? Science is a collective process, where's the research? Barney the barney barney (talk) 00:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Your last post is complete fiction from start to finish. Barleybannocks (talk) 00:09, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

As for the research, Iantresman produced a list of academic books and articles that discuss Sheldrake's theories in a srious academic manner. But, even if there were no sources like that, all that would show is that scientific community have not taken on board Sheldrake's ideas. It in no ways shows it is pseudoscience. That, as has been noted numerous times, is just your refusal to distinguish between ignored/rejected/not-accepted and pseudoscience. Thus you have to twist the sources you do have to make them say something they don't and ignore completely all the sources that contradict your vision for the article. Barleybannocks (talk) 00:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

It's all in the sources, Guy. You and several other editors are totally convinced that morphic resonance is unscientific, but that's not the consensus in the secondary material. As long as certain editors impose a view of Sheldrake that does not match what the sources actually say, this conflict will continue. If you're going to try to fix this problem, take the time to do it right and familiarize yourself with the source material. Iantresman has kindly put together the following list: [16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28] Academic books: [29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38] Sources describing him/his work as a pseudodscience: [39][40]

Bottom line: widespread rejection of Sheldrake's findings does not equate to a consensus that his work amounts to pseudoscience. Alfonzo Green (talk) 01:48, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

There are so many things wrong with the opening statement in this section:

• "...the scientific consensus view, because in science that is the neutral point of view" - few people really believe there is no momentum in what is considered correct amongst scientists. I doubt that any veteran scientist would serious argue that the scientific community is neutral and does not have "sacred cows" on which some have based their reputation.
• "The sources robustly support the fact that morphic resonance is pseudoscientific and lacks rigor." only the sources that state this are being allowed. All others are not accepted because they are not considered reliable by some editors.
• "...conservation of energy and thermodynamics are scientifically accepted as facts." Conservation of energy is a useful principle when considered in a closed system, but anyone who is familiar with the Hypothesis of Formative Causation will know that it includes the assumption that one must consider an open system, or at least a system in which entropy is influenced by conscious intention. This is a hypothesis that only makes sense if the research in psi functioning and the influence of intentionality on a hypothetical subtle energy field is considered--which is not allowed here because it is 'fringe." The arguments posed here by the skeptical editors ignores the context of the hypothesis. Without the psi research, editors here are probably right in scoffing at they hypotheses ... but then, Sheldrake probably would not have developed the hypothesis without that prior research.

I submit that most of the editors here are simply insufficiently informed to do anything more than to report the facts in a neutral way. Statements about the validity of the hypothesis are simply not appropriate, as this is not a peer-reviewed journal and we are not peers.Tom Butler (talk) 17:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Wikipedia has continually rejected the idea that articles are written from the Scientific Point of View(q.v.). That doesn't imply that Wikipedia/editors are anti-science, or support alternative points of view, only that we properly describe the scientific point of view, and point out the consensus scientific point of view, and other points of view if appropriate. The Neutral Point of View is a writing style, not any specific point of view. Describing any particular point of view does not imply support, veracity or credibility. That applies equally to significant points of view like the Big Bang, and to lesser points of view, such as morphic resonance. --Iantresman (talk) 17:39, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Would it make sense to say something like, "Within the context of psi research ..."? I would have to go looking for references, and then I would probably need to start an arbitration to get them used here, but all that aside, is there a way to couch discussion of Sheldrake's work in terms that limit their applicability? Tom Butler (talk) 17:51, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Isn't that the very reason we attribute contentious information, as it frames it? For example, stating that "morphic resonance is inherent in nature" is contentious, and would require multiple secondary sources. But as soon as we say that "Sheldrake states that morphic resonance is inherent in nature", that is not contentious, especially when we also state that Maddox, the then-editor of Nature, has called it pseudoscience. --Iantresman (talk) 19:43, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

It is like the Enlightenment never happened. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 00:15, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article is disputed

No rational observer would ever think the neutrality of this article is not being disputed. So please leave the tag up until more consensus has been established. Tom Butler (talk) 01:59, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but Tom Butler (talk · contribs), you're not being rational - that's exactly the point. Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney, this statement towards a fellow editor is inappropriate. --Iantresman (talk) 14:13, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

No, it's a fairly accurate assessment of what's going on here. A few fans of Sheldrake claim the article is biased. This is not rational in two ways. Firstly, it is not rational with regard to Wikipedia policies. Secondly, Sheldrake's work is not rational with regards to rationality. Those who believe that pseudoscientific nonsense is true - a group which seems identical to those that think this article is disputable, are not being rational because they are not accurately assessing Sheldrake's work in its claimed scientific context. This isn't a personal attack, it's an observation. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:26, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think Sheldrake's theories are true, yet I think the article is very unbalanced. For example, the section on the book, The Presence of the Past, has over 80% of the total words devoted to critical reviews and less than 8% of the total words devoted to covering what the book is actually about. It hard to imagine one would have to be a "Sheldrake fan" to understand the problem with that. Barleybannocks (talk) 14:30, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:VALID. Yes, the nonsense of the contents of the book receives little ink in the article. Precisely as the NPOV policy REQUIRES. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The article is about Sheldrake and his views. This is the subject matter. Sheldrake's views therefore, if discussed at all, should be explained clearly. Something that can be done easily without lending them any more credibility than they have. That's the skill of writing a balanced article, as opposed to the nonsense that's currently there. (I also think you should read/reread WP:VALID yourself since it's perfectly obvious you don't understand it in the slightest.) Barleybannocks (talk) 19:14, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom according to WP:NPOV, "Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another." Sheldrake's views, regardless of what you or any other editor thinks of them, must be presented alongside critical response to those views. Right now the section on Presence of the Past is badly skewed in favor of the anti-Sheldrake POV, and this is just one more bias that needs to be corrected in the article. Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

ABSOFUCKINGLUELTY NOT. - pseudoscientific nonsense believed by a non-measurable portion of the mainstream academic community must be presented as pseudoscientific nonsense with the mainstream views presented in appropriate proportion: "describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world." Sheldrakes pipedreams do NOT get to be artificially promoted so they "must be presented alongside" the criticism. no no no no no no no. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The article is about Sheldrake and his pipe-dreams. Thus they must feature so people at least know what particular pipe-dreams are being criticised. What you are advocating is possibly correct for an article called "Pipe Dream" where you can go to town. This is not that article. Moreover, established scholarship on the question of morphogenesis - the established mainstream scientific view that conflicts with Sheldrake and which appears in dozens of textbooks and journal articles - is nowhere to be seen in the article at present. I have argued it should be included alongside, and often instead of, what we currently have.Barleybannocks (talk) 00:04, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Two things. First, "morphogenetic fields" have bugger all to do with the valid scientific concept of morphogenesis, second, feel free to come up with a good source discussing the difference, that would be helpful. Guy (Help!) 20:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

When the subject of a sentence is "you", then it is personal. WP:NPA describes this quite well. I don't know any editor here who has said that they "believe" in either pseudoscientific nonsense, or even accept some of Sheldrake's more contentious hypotheses, so I don't know why you would even suggest it. --Iantresman (talk) 14:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:NPA provides some guidance: "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all." Lou Sander (talk) 14:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

@Iantresman there is no doubt that there are those who believe in pseudoscientific nonsense editing this page. You obviously haven't been paying attention to what is written here. I second Barney's accurate assessment of what is going on. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 15:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

In which case you'll have no problems providing diffs. --Iantresman (talk) 16:25, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Let me make it easy for Barney and Roxy since they seem to prefer to snipe at editors rather than addressing the issue. I have a great deal of respect for any scientist who is willing to put his or her carrier on hold to propose what is unavoidably a controversial hypothesis. I am not a scientist, and at my age, have no dog in the fight for the veracity of his hypothesis. Even so, I have attempted to see if his Hypothesis of Formative Causation can help clarify concept associated with the Survival Hypothesis. The hypothesis does help. I also know that Sheldrake, himself, is seeking ways of testing they hypothesis.

With that said, as an engineer, it is deeply engrained in my psyche to base belief on objective understanding, and as of this moment, Sheldrake's hypothesis can only remain a conjecture for me. The idea has legs and I will only know if it has merit if more good minds feel safe enough in their careers to study it.

Below, is a statement I think any honest scientist would agree to as a guiding principle. All I am asking here is that editors accept the same view of open inquiry. As it stands now, Wikipedia is seen as a public forum which, intentionally or not, effectively stops scientists from publicly exploring novel concepts.

Sheldrake's hypothesis is an attempt to make sense out of an observed phenomena, which to this day, mainstream scientists have failed to explain. As far as I can tell, all of the efforts to explain cellular morphogenesis have been poorly received or simply proven inadequate. In such an theoretical vacuum, one must consider more novel explanations. This, Sheldrake has done and no one here is in the position to say he is sienctifically out of line. From the American Association for the Advancement of Science, In THE NATURE OF SCIENCE: Scientific Ideas Are Subject To Change "Science is a process for producing knowledge. The process depends both on making careful observations of phenomena and on inventing theories for making sense out of those observations. Change in knowledge is inevitable because new observations may challenge prevailing theories. No matter how well one theory explains a set of observations, it is possible that another theory may fit just as well or better, or may fit a still wider range of observations. In science, the testing and improving and occasional discarding of theories, whether new or old, go on all the time. Scientists assume that even if there is no way to secure complete and absolute truth, increasingly accurate approximations can be made to account for the world and how it works." Tom Butler (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The Presence of the Past

The section in the article about Sheldrake's book, The Presence of the past, currently allocates around 7.5% of the words to explaining what the book is about (around 17 words), around 9.5% of the word to a positive review (around 20 words), and around 83% of the words to criticism of the book (around 180 words). I'm not sure that's an appropriate balance in an article about Sheldrake. Barleybannocks (talk) 02:43, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

How is it not representative of the reception and critique the book and its ideas have received? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying there should be no critique, but at present there's virtually no book and only critique. That is, <8% about the book and >80% critique. If there's any point in having a separate section about this book, then we should explain in a little detail what's actually in it before we list all the nasty things some have said about it. Otherwise we should just call the section "Criticism of Presence of the Past" and be done with it. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

only the details

I amended the introduction [41] so as not to misrepresent Sheldrake's view of the fallacy of omniscience. The introduction is therefore now aligned with the section on Science Set Free (and Sheldrake's actual views). Here's the source. p.6 [42] Barleybannocks (talk) 13:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

New Age

Since my last edit has been questioned, let me quote from the work cited from:

"Sheldrake is admired by many New Agers because they believe him to have given scientific credibility to the theory of critical mass and thus to the idea of a sudden transformation of society. The connection made by his followers is, however, not shared by Sheldrake himself. With respect to popular New Age theories of critical mass, he seems to be a sceptic rather than a believer."

The original statement was that "Despite the response to his work from the scientific community, Sheldrake has garnered some support."

This is so vague as to be meaningless, if not downright misleading. 'some support' - from whom? You have to be specific. I read it as saying that Sheldrake has 'some support' from the scientific community. Perhaps that is true, but when I looked at the page cited, I could find nothing to back it up. The only thing resembling a statement of support is the one above - that he is admired by New agers. So I put that in. It's clearly supported by the citation.

We should only use citations which support statement made. If the source does not support it, don't say it, or find a source that does. I can find nothing on that page which suggests he is supported by the scientific community.

I did consider including the point that he does not himself agree with the New Age views. I just couldn't find a way of making it a good sentence. If anyone can manage that, I encourage them to try.

This is not about taking sides: it's about the fact that we should not include statements that are vague or misleading. --Rbreen (talk) 14:24, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that this was Vzaak (talk · contribs)'s attempt to pacify some of the pro-Sheldrake editors. He does have a few "supporters" but they tend to defend his right to free speech, and/or call for more research, more than they agree with what he's saying. We need to get that nuance correct. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:29, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Above there is a list of about 20 sources that have given Sheldrake some support - most, as noted, are simply supporting the idea he is doing science rather than supporting the veracity of his theories. Approximately ten of these, however, are scientists. The current introduction badly misrepresents Sheldrake's support by counting, eg, a Nobel Laureate in physics as a new age devotee.Barleybannocks (talk) 14:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that the Nobel laureate is a new age devotee. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:42, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Hardly, he believes, as many do, in various phenomena that others reject for a priori reasons, but that hardly makes him a new age devotee. We also have all the other scientists as well though, so the article is still a gross misrepresentation of the truth of the matter, and the sources.Barleybannocks (talk) 17:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Well he apparently believes in psychicism, homeopathy and various other things that are rejected by science for not being demonstrably true. This puts him far outside the scientific mainstream, and as a source, we should not be misrepresenting him or his views as mainstream. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:28, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is suggesting we represent his views as the view of the mainstream. He is, however, a scientist/academic. As are many others who have supported Sheldrake in one way or another (see the sources above). Thus I am arguing they should be represented honestly in the article, rather than misrepresented and/or suppressed to suit the views of editors here. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:42, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Like criticising Isaac Newton for his studies of the occult (exorcised from his Wiki biography), and Einstein's belief in the Pole shift hypothesis (not mentioned in his Wiki biography)? Association fallacy? --Iantresman (talk) 17:46, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Is the Nobel Laureate you are referring to Brian Josephson? Where is the evidence that he believes in homeopathy? --Iantresman (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I think he has suggested there may be mechanisms by which water might "remember" under certain circumstances. Others, however, know a priori that it cannot. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:12, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

But that's not the same as accepting homeopathy, it's a what-if. --Iantresman (talk) 19:22, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Nor is it dismissing ideas a priori - ideas are dismissed because of a lack of evidence and lack of a plausible mechanism. In those respects, homeopathy is very similar to "morphic resonance". Barney the barney barney (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

"Granted its scientific and philosophical implausibility"

I stand corrected on TheRedPenOfDoom's interpretation of this statement in Rose's paper[43]. I genuinely misread it as if though it had a comma after "scientific", and only now after reading it again for the umpteenth time, do I see that I was wrong. My apologies for disagreeing with him on this point. I still stand by my other sources where they state Sheldrake 'is' scientific, and of course I am still happy to mention the sources I included stating it is pseudoscience.--Iantresman (talk) 19:06, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Is the neutrality of the article disputed?

Yes. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:16, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes! Tom Butler (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Commentary

Please identify what content is not appropriate per WP:NPOV -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:50, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes. eg. "Scientists and sceptics have labelled morphic resonance a pseudoscience" per ambiguous quantity. All of them? --Iantresman (talk) 21:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much. There has been no evidence presented that would indicate that any measurable fraction do not consider the nonsensical promulgations anything other than utter hoohah. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

You can not provide evidence of "do not consider". The fact concerns those who consider his work pseudoscience, so our onus is to quantify it. --Iantresman (talk) 22:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

per WP:REDFLAG the onus is on you to show that there is any measurable portion of academia that believes in this magic. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is arguing that there are many within the scientific community who believe in the truth of Sheldrakes theories. Rather, what is being argued, and has been shown conclusively,is that there is support for the fact that Sheldrake is doing appropriate science. And this distinction between believing the theory to be true and believe it to be science is key - it is made in a number of the sources. Thus I think to understand what people here are arguing you need to come to grips with this distinction. There are more than two options: true, or pseudoscience. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:12, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

1. Misrepresentations (strawman presentations) and suppression of Sheldrake's views (eg, singling out one particular dogma and supporting point in the intro, and not even in the manner Sheldrake discusses them, and the Presence of the past section discussed above which is, at the moment. simply a front for unbridled criticism with no real attempt to describe the content of the book). 2. Misrepresentation of critical views (falsely claiming many more critics have said pseudoscience than actually have, and making the nonsensical claim, still in the intro, about it being pseudoscience for reasons that wouldn't make it pseudoscience even if true). 3. Suppression and misrepresentation of supporting/non-negative views (Sheldrake's support is entirely cast in the intro as if it comes from new age followers when we have numerous academic sources discussing his work in a serious academic manner). 4. All Sheldrake's critics are given the grandest introduction they can be given, while his supporters (when mentioned at all) are described in the lowliest manner they could be. Compare, for example, the descriptions of Jerry Coyne and Brian Josephson. 5. Suppression of the fact Sheldrake is a biologist according to around 30 top class sources.

And while this all sounds very bad, it doesn't actually need an awful lot to fix it. It just needs gone through and made much more balanced.Barleybannocks (talk) 20:04, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

again, the declaration that simply a front for unbridled criticism with no real attempt to describe the content of the book is NOT what NPOV requires is just nonsense. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

And the attempt to add the NPOV tag does seem to be an attempt to "warn" readers that what follows is not compatible with WP:NPOV, which is just not true.

But anyway, perhaps Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) would like to elaborate on his explanation, perhaps on a separate statement. Regarding sources, if pro-Sheldrake sources can be provided, from scientists or philosophers, we should include these. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:33, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

There are around 20 new sources which have been found from academics/scientists supportive, in one way or another, or which discuss Sheldrake in academic terms, which are currently nowhere to be seen in the article. 23:52, 2 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs)

Great, thanks Barleybannocks (talk · contribs)(please remember to sign!). How about we start with those one at a time? Have a look at who says it and what they say? Are any of them peer reviewed papers testing morphic resonance-related hypotheses? Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

You miss the point. The point is not that morphic resonnace is accepted by anyone, the point is that many (see above) have defended Sheldrake in principle as a scientist doing appropriate, even if wrong, science. That is, they have rejected much of the wilder (non-peer-reviewed) criticism which is currently misrepresented as the mainstream scientific view (the mainstream view that currently makes no appearance in the article fwiw).Barleybannocks (talk) 00:09, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I do really. I thought you had some supportive sources that we could include in the article to add a bit more "balance" if you like. But you seem to be trying to claim that this isn't a fringe topic. The former is fantastic - actually improving the article. The latter is somewhat awkwardly trying to cross the red line of WP:FRINGE and that shall not be crossed. I think my suggestion of going through the sources one at a time and adding them makes sense. You are correct that the "wilder" comments aren't peer reviewed, although they are sourced to those with appropriate credentials and appropriate publications, and the lack of peer review would no doubt change if any morphic resonance experiments were published in PR journals. What you seem to misunderstand is that "bad science" is bad for a reason, and if those reasons are fundamental (such as vagueness and unfalsifiability), then bad science and pseudoscience are essentially indistinguishable. But please if you didn't mean this, and did have some sources for us, please elaborate and we'll have a look at them. Barney the barney barney (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

And the rejections are sourced to people with appropriate credentials. Thus I, as in me personally, am not arguing with you about pseudoscience. There are Nobel Laureate's and a reasonable number of other top-notch scientists who have done that and, given even the most cursory reading of Wikipedia rules, their views should be included. Barleybannocks (talk) 00:35, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Well it does appear to be Nobel Laureate (singular). Maybe we could try to get more of his viewpoint in. But meanwhile, and I don't think this is unreasonable - I think we need the sources. Url or newspaper reference, whatever. I'm sorry if they've been posted before and I've missed them. Please just specify what these sources are, because they deserve to be included. Barney the barney barney (talk) 00:43, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The sources have been provided above about 10 times. Iantresman produced a big long list.Barleybannocks (talk) 00:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

"...one at a time," This is just Stonewalling. I think most of the alternative sources have been previously presented and still we have a consolidated front of editors insisting on one point of view with no apparent willingness to compromise for consensus. Tom Butler (talk) 00:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

No really Tom Butler (talk · contribs) - it isn't. If there are sources that describe how Sheldrake's work is scientific, how his critics are wrong to criticise it, then please present them. There are apparently over 20 of them, so one at a time isn't too bad a suggestion. We can deal with one, then move through them until we get to the 20th. The consensus is that WP:FRINGE applies. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS cannot be established contrary to this, however hard you try. We don't compromise on WP:NPOV. Barney the barney barney (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney - the Shelly supporters seem a little reluctant to have their sources examined properly, having provided them about 10 times above apparently. Would it help if I trawled through the dross and try and find them one at a time, present them here for discussion and inclusion? I'd be happy to do that to improve the article, if the ones proposing it can't be bothered. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 05:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Here's the first batch. These are a number of scientists who argue Sheldrake is doing science rather than pseudoscience and have offered support in various ways.

Marc Bekoff, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder. [44]

These four all signed an open letter to TED that was published in the Huffington Post [45] and which should be detailed in the section on the TED controversy. (Links to their credentials can be found above on a previous post.)

Menas C. Kafatos, Ph.D., is the Fletcher Jones Endowed Professor of Computational Physics and the Director of the Center of Excellence at Chapman University

Stuart Hameroff, MD, Professor of Anesthesiology and Psychology, Director, Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona

Rudolph E. Tanzi, Ph.D., Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard University, Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital

Neil Theise, MD, Professor, Pathology and Medicine, (Division of Digestive Diseases) Beth Israel Medical Center - Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York.

Here's one who also explicitly rejects the accusation of pseudoscience in a letter published in nature:

Brian Josephson, Nobel Laureate in Physics.[46]

And here's an academic who argues, amongst other things, that books such as Sheldrake's, whatever you ultimately think about morphic resonance, are the "life's blood of Science" (thus not pseudoscience).

Theodore Roszak, Professor Emeritus of history at California State University, East Bay [47]

Here's a scientist who worked with Sheldrake in developing some of his theories.

David Joseph Bohm FRS - "American theoretical physicist who contributed innovative and unorthodox ideas to quantum theory, philosophy of mind, and neuropsychology. He is widely considered to be one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century." [48]

Now, it seems clear that Sheldrake has some small support in academia both in terms of the appropriateness of his work in scientific terms, and the possible veracity/utility of it. This is clearly not the mainstream consensus view - which is that Sheldrake's speculation are unnecessary (ie, the problems of morphogenesis will be solved in the future within the current framework) - but this does warrant note at various places in the article including the introduction which falsely claims Sheldrake's support is entirely from unspecified new age devotees and then cites a Chopra quote about religion. Barleybannocks (talk) 10:00, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, well they don't seem to be textbooks or scientific papers, or indeed tests of morphic resonance, and I'm not sure there's 20 of them, and some of them are in the article already. But taking the one at a time principal, which one do you want to start with, Barleybannocks (talk · contribs)? Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:34, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's a case of one at a time. The point here is more that Sheldrake has received some support form the academic/scientific community. That is, we currently have a whole load of non-peer-reviewed stuff, of exactly the type I just listed, quoted at length and referred to throughout the article without any indication that anyone disagrees with that assessment. Thus the intro should probably say something like, eg, "Despite the critical reception from the scientific community at large, Sheldrake has received some small degree of scientific support for his work (sources above - and we even have a source saying this very thing), as well as having attracted a following within the new age community. (source already in the article)" That would sort out that particular section in the introduction.Barleybannocks (talk) 10:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Here's another on Sheldrake as scientific. "Now, it should be said that Sheldrake is totally committed to the scientific method." [http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/feb/02/philosophy-sheldrake-science} And from the same source, here's an interesting take on Sheldrake's critics from sceptic Chris French "In my opinion, many of the attacks on Sheldrake's work have been unfair and uninformed". Barleybannocks (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Here's a source (Sue Blackmore) making almost exactly the point many here have been making "Sheldrake is scientific – at least in many respects – but his theory is wrong." I therefore think there is little doubt now that a significant number of commentators regard Sheldrake's work as scientific irrespective of their views about its ultimate veracity. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:34, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Here's an interesting link. [49] The Guardian newspaper asked four commentators to write articles specifically on the question of whether Sheldrake's ideas were science or not. The word "pseudoscience" only appeared once in any of the articles and it is in reference to Intelligent Design, not Sheldrake. It's clear, then, that: a) in virtue of even asking the question the Guardian feels the answer is not immediately clear (ie, there is a question to be asked); and b) that none of the commentators answering that question describe his work as pseudoscience (several quite the contrary, they say it's science). Given this, and all the other sources listed above, the article here should be clearer that by no means all agree that Sheldrake's work is pseudoscience (even if most think it is wrong).Barleybannocks (talk) 22:51, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Another example of bias in the current article

Here is the introductory paragraph about Sheldrake and media coverage.

"Sheldrake has received popular coverage through newspapers, radio, television and speaking engagements. (neutral framing, 12 words, 18%) The attention he receives has raised concerns that it adversely affects the public understanding of science. Some have accused Sheldrake of self-promotion,[24] with one commenting, "for the inventors of such hypotheses the rewards include a degree of instant fame which is harder to achieve by the humdrum pursuit of more conventional science." (critical summary, 53 words, 82%)

Note that this is a section solely about Sheldrake's media coverage. Why it would need to have over 80% of the introduction to such a section devoted to criticism is anyone's guess. It can't seriously be the consensus view of the scientific mainstream qua consensus view of the scientific mainstream, that there is something badly amiss about Sheldrake's media coverage. Rather, we have a vanishingly small number of people who have complained about it in sociological rather than scientific terms, and they are given extraordinary free reign in a non-scientific section of the article for no other reason than to do down Sheldrake yet again for some perceived crime. 82%! Barleybannocks (talk) 10:18, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the assessment Barleybannocks (talk · contribs). Can you suggest two things (1) how is this not compatible with WP:FRINGE? And how would you improve the article? Can you find any other comments on Sheldrake's media appearances? Perhaps someone saying how he well he speaks, or what a good job standing up for his research? Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:53, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE is about fringe science qua fringe science, whereas this section is about media coverage of Sheldrake. Where scientific claims are made in that section, then, the mainstream view should prevail, but there in no mainstream scientific view qua mainstream scientific view on media coverage of Sheldrake - it is not a subject of scientific study, and there is no consensus view of it held by scientists qua scientists. Barleybannocks (talk) 11:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Well the mainstream view is that Sheldrake favours self-promotion over experimentation (Rose), and he that self-promotion may be more "rewarding" than doing real science. Everything in this article is covered by WP:FRINGE - that's locked in, you can't get out of it. So where are the other comments on his media appearances? Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:12, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

With regards the first point, no, that's the sociological opinions of some mainstream scientists, but it is absolutely not the mainstream scientific consensus qua mainstream scientific consensus. The mainstream scientific view of things is easy to find - it's what's in scientific textbooks an peer-reviewed journals by the dozen. Thus there is no reason, regarding your point about FRINGE, when non-scientific points are discussed in the article to pretend that media coverage of someone's work qua media coverage of someone's work is a fringe scientific claim of any kind qua fringe scientific claim of any kind which needs to be overwhelmed with the non-scientific views of some disgruntled scientists qua social/political animals. Barleybannocks (talk) 11:18, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

And I've not said there are any other comments on his media appearances. I've not looked. The point here is simply that there is way too much space given in the introduction to this section to the critical views of a few people as if this is a scientific claim of some kind being made and thus Fringe is central. Fringe is not central here - no fringe claims qua fringe claims are being made and thus there is nothing fringe to contrast with anything mainstream. Most of the criticism therefore should be removed and replaced with one short sentence stating the basic concerns..Barleybannocks (talk) 11:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. To understand a fringe topic you need to look at the sociology. WP:FRINGE is non-negotiable - if you try to negotiate it, which you are trying to do, then there's very little chance of this discussion progressing, and highly likely it will spiral into an argument in which one side has policy and precedent and the other overuses the word "qua". If you're able to present other commentary, then we can use that other commentary. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not trying to renegotiate it. The policy/guideline is clearly about the portrayal of fringe science qua fringe science against the mainstream scientific consensus qua mainstream scientific consensus. Sheldrake's media appearances qua media appearances are not a fringe scientific claim - they are not a scientific claim of any kind, and there is no mainstream view qua mainstream view of any kind. There are, instead, a few non-scientific opinions from a few scientists qua social/political animals. If this really was the consensus view of mainstream science then there would be copious textbooks, journal articles etc stating it - there would be experiments done, theories proposed, and findings published all over the place? None of that exists in this case because we are not, in this instance, discussing a scientific issue of any kind. Barleybannocks (talk) 11:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

To understand WP:FRINGE: suppose I found a source somewhere that claims that Sheldrake's ideas are based on a misunderstood role of homeobox proteins and other morphogenetic factors (Wnt included :)) which can diffuse between cells (even in a very unexpected, non-standard way for the former). I could not introduce and describe all his theories in terms of that source, because it would be a fringe idea about what Sheldrake is saying, from the perspective of covering those ideas. You can have fringe ideas even when they are factually based and concern a work of fiction, when they don't represent the balance of coverage in the literature about the subject. Wnt (talk) 19:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney the barney barney continues with his increasingly desperate appeal to WP:FRINGE. So let's take a look at what Wikipedia actually says on the matter. "Fringe theory in a nutshell: To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea." Thus WP:FRINGE would apply if we tried to characterize morphic resonance as the generally accepted mechanism of memory or inheritance or ontogeny, but this is not an article about a mainstream idea. "More extensive treatment should be reserved for an article about the idea, which must meet the test of notability." Since this is an article about Sheldrake, and his chief source of notability is morphic resonance, we are free to discuss this idea in this article. "Additionally, when the subject of an article is the minority viewpoint itself, the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints must be clear." This means we must make clear in the article that Sheldrake's idea is the minority viewpoint. However, this point is already emphasized to the point of overkill, and for this reason we need to pare back critical commentary to give some breathing room to the idea ostensibly under discussion.

The irony of Barney bludgeoning us with WP:FRINGE is that it applies to his own inflexible approach to this article. Given that the vast majority of secondary sources treat Sheldrake as a scientist, refusing to allow him to be labelled a scientist in the opening sentence is a violation of WP:FRINGE. We are not allowed to let a fringe view dictate how we treat the subject of an article. We must also be clear that the pseudoscience label represents a small minority of opinion. Therefore we cannot simply say, "Scientists and sceptics have labelled morphic resonance a pseudoscience" since this implies a majority viewpoint. In keeping with WP:FRINGE we must modify this sentence so as to eliminate this false implication. Alfonzo Green (talk) 00:32, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Alfonso, I'm actually not that bothered by saying/implying the majority think it pseudoscience. I don't think that's too big a deal. It should be made clear though than many disagree and consider him a scientist, even a good one, even if wrong. It is the suppression of these other views (now sourced to many, many sources) which I think is unacceptable. Barleybannocks (talk) 00:47, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

We don't have the sources to back up the claim that the majority of scientists view his work as pseudoscience. The consensus seems to be that his theory is wrong, not that it's unscientific to begin with. Incidentally, here's another example of bias in the article. Of the two sources following Sheldrake's professions, one says he's overhyped and the other says he seduces people through telepathic charm. Talk about POV pushing! Alfonzo Green (talk) 01:01, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I kind of agree, and the article really should have that sentence the other way round. That is, it should say rejected for a variety of reasons (lack of evidence etc.) first and then say some have also labelled it pseudoscience. The sentence as it stand also makes no sense, and when I questioned this nobody would provide the sources they were using (at least none that made the point that nonsensical way round). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs) 01:08, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Good point. By the way, it turns out there's no Overhyped article. It's not in the issue of Nature referenced in the citation and it's not in any other issue or any other journal for that matter. The second article is inaccessible except to Nature subscribers and seems to have been chosen just for its belittling title. This isn't just POV pushing, it's a hatchet job. Alfonzo Green (talk) 01:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I think you guys ought to examine your counting system. Hint : we have progressed beyond "one, two, three - Many" --Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, many. About twenty. Ten of them are cited above. We actually have, fwiw, far more sources saying Sheldrake's work is scientific than we do for the claim that it is pseudoscience. BTW, I think your last edit makes a mockery of Wikipedia in that the wording is completely out of keeping with how an encyclopaedia should be written - grateful if you could self revert. Barleybannocks (talk) 01:25, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion, I have made the phrase more encyclopaedic. HTH. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:43, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Delete or separate theory from biography

I think it is time to seriously consider making this into two articles. There is precedence for this. Future history will either ignore Sheldrake or at least mention him amongst the people contributing to our understanding of evolution. In fact, I am a little shocked his Hypothesis of Formative Causation is not included in the Lamarckism article. Two of the main players in evolution are of course Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and Charles Darwin. Both of their biographical articles appear to be balanced, even though for a time, Lamarck was discredited.

In the same way, both the Evolution and Lamarckism articles appear to be well-balanced, again, even though Lamarckism is not considered valid today.

Treatment of the Sheldrake article is confused by the conservative editor's desire to show that the Hypothesis of Formative Causation is wrong, resulting in a very probable defamatory treatment of the still-living man. This is an untenable situation for Wikipedia, which all of this edit warring should prove.

I propose that we take a different tack:

1. Delete the article and do no more
2. Move Sheldrake's hypothesis and research into new articles and away from his biographical article.
3. Continue as is
4. Delete the biography article and keep the hypothesis article

I further propose that we give this a week and then close the vote and either go with #3 or act on #1 or #2. I would caution that a new article for the hypothesis should be titled Hypothesis of Formative Causation with Morphic field and Morphic resonance redirected to Hypothesis of Formative Causation.

Please vote on this here:

Number 2 - It is time to align this subject with the treament of similar subjects in Wikipedia. Tom Butler (talk) 19:10, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Not happening Tom Butler (talk · contribs). Although Sheldrake is not notable as a scientist, the coverage he received his is notable as something else, so he'll fail AFD (try WP:AFD if you like). Meanwhile, morphic resonance might have its own article if there is as a bare minimum a small number of peer reviewed scientific articles testing the hypothesis. I am not aware of any. My prediction, btw, is that future history will ignore Sheldrake, mostly because they're ignoring him now. As Jzg (talk · contribs) says above this is a red line that you shouldn't be arguing. Also, WP:CONSENSUS is WP:NOTAVOTE.

Please feel free however to perhaps draft in your sandbox, the two separate articles you propose, one on Sheldrake's personal life and religious beliefs, and the other on his big "scientific" idea. If you think it will work, try to demonstrate how you think it can work, rather than just arguing. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

• Separate. Trying to lump the idea and the creator into one article is ridiculous. It's like handling the theory of relativity in the article about Albert Einstein, or more appropriately, describing the plot of Carrie in the article about Stephen King. The status of the ideas as pseudoscience, how to describe them, can be discussed at that article. I think it is pseudoscience, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't cover it and take it seriously. This is the Age of Bitcoin, when things don't have to have value to be valuable. Just like homeopathy, people will be passing this idea on and making money on it in centuries to come, long after Sheldrake is out of the picture. (There may be more than one article spun off handling different ideas he's espoused separately, though some might go in discussions of other things like perpetual motion) Wnt (talk) 19:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

If Morphic Resonance and Theory of Relativity were in any way comparable you might have a point. But they are not. TOR was pretty quickly recognized and accepted into mainstream science and studied and written about by multiple other eminent scientist. Morphic Resonance, on the other hand in over 30 years has not. In fact, some of the other original proponents now state "My initial belief was wrong, I concluded, and so I changed my mind and became sceptical. Sheldrake has not changed his mind, and goes on believing in telepathy. " -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:09, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

TheRedPenOfDoom do you really think Sue Blackmore is a reliable source to talk about such things as science, pseudoscience, telepathy and morphic resonance etc? Barleybannocks (talk) 21:17, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I think Sue Blackmore is an excellent source. She understands telepathy and the psychology of it very well, and she represents the scientific mainstream. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree that Blackmore is a perfectly reasonable source Barney, and that you think she "represents the scientific mainstream". I just wanted to make sure of that so there would no arguments after citing the first sentence from her article on Sheldrake: "Sheldrake is scientific – at least in many respects – but his theory is wrong." (my emphasis) And so here we have a representative of the mainstream making exactly the point we've been making (scientific but wrong), and which you've been rejecting. I trust we need labour this point no further. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:13, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I presented Blackmore purely to show how the analogy of MR to TOR was not a good analogy. While TOR started with a single individual, it gained rather quickly a following amongst the mainstream of the scientific community. MR on the other hand in thirty years has not gained followers in the scientific community, but lost some of the initial followers who thought for a time at its inception it might be a promising idea. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

That's fine, I don't think the analogy with TOR was much good. My point here though is that Blackmore acknowledges Sheldrake is scientific, even if wrong. And, fwiw, Blackmore hasn't been a supporter of MR and then turned away, she's talking about psi powers. In any event, at least we have one acknowledged representative of the mainstream saying exactly what we've been arguing. I'll add her to the list of people who think Sheldrake is doing science. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Honestly, I don't see how belief/nonbelief in Sheldrake's ideas makes any difference. I made a point above to give an example for both clear fact and clear fiction to make it clear we split articles in both cases. If you need a closer interpolation, consider that Samuel Hahnemann is separate from homeopathy (an article which covers mostly his notion), Scientology is separate from L. Ron Hubbard, and even MMR vaccine controversy is separate from Andrew Wakefield!

In case you are curious - my vote is not based on this - I should note that I am pretty heavily skeptical of Sheldrake because I am open-minded to all sorts of things: for example I am open minded toward obvious rational (recognize infrasound from far away - after all I know I do) and paranormal (perhaps dogs experience precognition) alternatives to Sheldrake's ideas; and while it is quite unlikely, in broad outline his concepts can be an interesting philosophical exercise since we have reason to suspect physics as we see it is not the 'ultimate truth' (holographic event horizons, etc.) Wnt (talk) 22:27, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

But in all of your examples the "concept" itself has received widespread coverage without specific identification with the creator/lead cheerleader, and the creator has received significant notability outside of that "concept". Not really the case here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes it gets loose; in any case, that's too strict a standard. I mean, we have articles on Kzin and Pierson's Puppeteers! This is absurd - there's no excuse needed to split an article if its contents are starting to get cramped, as long as there's some rational line of division so people can figure out which article is most appropriate to add a new fact to. Wnt (talk) 22:45, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

That WP:OTHERCRAP has not been appropriately dealt with is not convincing and this article reached the length where spinning off because of length is required. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:07, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm, actually, looking over [50], it's not all technically pseudoscience. The claim that a person crystallizing a compound in one laboratory for the first time will make it easier for anyone anywhere to crystallize it afterward is absolutely falsifiable, and however unlikely the experiment should be, at least, entertaining, for the sheer audacity of the claim that humans can tromp their muddy boots in the realm of Platonic form. Rival protein crystallographers should love this one, and might be a source of useful data! Wnt (talk) 19:45, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

• we don't need two articles about the same thing - there is no one doing morphic resonance other than Sheldrake and there is nothing that Sheldrake is notable for other than his books pimping morphic resonance. "separate" articles will just result in the same content twice with the same WP:VALID placement of Sheldrakes morphic resonance as ludicrous pseudoscience by mainstream academia twice. Pointless duplication. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:40, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

A quick search finds a paper at the University of Northampton that suggests otherwise,[51][52] and a researcher at the University of Newcastle,[53] --Iantresman (talk) 21:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Aside from how much I detest TRPod and Barney's tone, I think this thread is worth continuing. I have, however, added Option 4: to delete the article titled Rupert Sheldrake and only have articles about the theory articles.

It is clear some editors here only want the article so that they can discredit Sheldrake, so as you vote, please be sure you are voting for the best solution for Wikipedia. Tom Butler (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, we are not here to "discredit Sheldrake" - he has done that himself. And per WP:BLP we report on the reaction of his continued pimping of his pseudoscience has brought from the mainstream academia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

we're trying to re;pport on that. But you keep refusing to acknowledge that many in mainstream academia regard his work as scientific. Even your source above, Sue Blackmore, said it right up front at the start of her article. I should also point out that the article is primarily an article about Sheldrake and his work. That is, the title is not: "Critical Responses from the Academy to A.R. Sheldrake".Barleybannocks (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

did you read her article? or even the whole sentence? "Sheldrake is scientific – at least in many respects – but his theory is wrong." "This analysis [of data that Sheldrake says supports MR] was far from clear-cut and the results did not, in my opinion, support the theory. Nor have results since then. ... My initial belief was wrong, I concluded, and so I changed my mind and became sceptical. Sheldrake has not changed his mind, and goes on believing in telepathy." That is not an endorsement of Sheldrake as a scientist. It is the complete opposite identifying how scientists are persuaded by the evidence and Sheldrakes complete immunity to being persuaded by the lack of evidence even after 30 years. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:05, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I did read her article. It makes the point that many here have been making and you have been vehemently disagreeing with. That is, many here have been arguing that, even if wrong, Sheldrake's work is scientific. That's what Blackmore says too. She says it in one of the sentences you quoted. No mention of pseudoscience in her entire article. Just a rejection of his theory. And we already know his theory is not-accepted/rejected by the mainstream - nobody, not even Sheldrake, is arguing otherwise.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:09, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

No, in toto she says that he dresses up his parapsychology work on telepathy in scientific garb - attempts to give scientific credence to non scientific work - pseudoscience, not actual science. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:13, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

No, she doesn't say that at all. That's just your (mis)interpretation of the article. Blackmore was free to use the word "pseudoscience" and she did not. She used the word "scientific" instead (see above). And while she thinks the evidence is not clear cut, and while she changed her mind about psi, there is no requirement for every scientist in the world to agree on how best to proceed from evidence that is "not clear-cut". And it's not just Blackmore, we have dozens of sources saying Sheldrake's work is scientific. These should be included in the article rather than suppressed.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:17, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks (talk · contribs)- trying to claim a difference between really bad science and pseudoscience is just splitting hairs. They are essentially indistinguishable. 23:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not trying to claim that difference (although there is one - bad science is still science - pseudoscience isn't). But even if we accept your claim to the contrary, there are plenty sources (including now Blackmore - an "excellent source" according to you, and a "representative of the mainstream" according to you) which say that Sheldrake is doing science. I listed many of them above for you, but you stopped commenting on them. They're still there.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no real issue with one article or more. My main concern is the quality. The article could, imo, be made into a very good one quite easily since Sheldrake is a very interesting character with some very interesting ideas. We just need to accurately reflect the sources and balance the article a bit more so it is in line with them whilst covering Sheldrake's work in addition to the criticisms of it (so readers will know, rather than have to guess, what his ideas are all about). Barleybannocks (talk) 22:39, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Point of order: it isn't actually up to the talk page of this article to figure out whether a hypothetical new article is a good idea or not. We can't evaluate an article that doesn't exist. If someone wants to take on the task of splitting out an article about one of Sheldrake's concepts, people will have to go there and see it before they decide on AfD or merge discussions. Wnt (talk) 23:14, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks, in a perfect world, I would agree with you, but the reality of it is that the contested interpretation of NPOV is going to assure this article will remain unstable. We can all go away, and sooner or later, someone will come along and make changes one way or another to either further discredit the man or make the article more neutral. There are just too many people out there with strong feelings about the idea (and I hope, therefor, about the man). In my opinion, this would not be the case if we separate the man from the theory. In that case, the skeptical community would likely not feel the need to discredit the man as a way of making his ideas look silly.

Wnt, again, in an ideal world, that makes sense. The problem is that this article has become a bone of contention which is going nowhere without some agreement of the editors. Consensus is always what some editors insist we need to make changes, so this is an effort to make a consensus. Sandboxes are awfully lonely places if no one cares about them. Tom Butler (talk) 23:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The article as it stands now is a travesty. I never thought I could align myself with Tom, but I cannot see the article becoming stable with it being a BLP. Split the article into two, one for Shelly's ideas and the other a biography. The bio would soon become a stub for deletion without the ideas in it for notability, and the pseudoscience guff could be given the treatment it deserves. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 08:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Ditch the 'notes'

One item that jumps out on the WP:BLP front is the "notes" section which lists various derogatory phrases and references for each. On closer examination it is apparent that many of these numbers are actually repeated, but it exaggerates the appearance that the whole world is condemning the guy. Come on! I say replace the "notes" with an ordinary, simple list of the references, once citation for each. Include a Wiki source comment string citing the original notes table in case future editors want to wade into the dispute. The thing must be the scar of some past epic battle, and it's ugly. Wnt (talk) 23:21, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree, it's just a cheap shot intended to do unchallenged rhetorical work.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The "notes" are in part an legacy of a previous version of the lead when a succinct description of the mainstream analysis of his work stated something along the lines of "Morphic resonance has been rejected by scientists and sceptics as pseudoscience and magical thinking because of the lack of evidence, its inconsistency with established scientific theories, being overly vague and unfalsifiable, having been conducted with experimental methods that were poorly designed and subject to experimenter bias." Being potentially contentious content about a living person, the multiple sources for each portion of the claim were clearly laid out without the link clutter of 20 cites in one sentence. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:38, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

That was a particularly good version of the lede IMHO. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 23:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom Simple lack of evidence does not make a hypothesis pseudoscience. Lack of evidence doesn't even mean a theory is wrong, much less incoherent or untestable. "Inconsistency with established scientific theories" is simply vacuous. There's literally nothing there. The charge of being vague and unfalsifiable is itself vague and unfalsifiable. And the final charge is just whining from researchers who don't like the results of certain experiments. The notes are indeed yet another indicator of how the article has degenerated under the influence of editors emotionally committed to a pseudoscientific materialist ideology. Alfonzo Green (talk) 00:46, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

The assessment is correct. "Morphic resonance" (or magic) as an explanation contradicts theories in genetics and developmental biology that explain how an organism develops from the turning on and off of its genes, by other genes. These are very well supported theories, and it's in Sheldrake's modus operandi to claim that they're not supported. This is in the critical commentaries. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

The idea that genes constitute a blueprint or developmental program was overturned by the discovery that a wide variety of organisms, from insects to people, share roughly the same set of developmental genes. The key factor isn't so much the genes themselves but when they are activated and deactivated, a process controlled by proteins known as epigenetic tags. There's currently no testable hypothesis in mainstream science for what determines the behavior of epigenetic tags (though it's generally assumed that genes somehow regulate the proteins regulating them). For all we know, epigenetic tags operate on the basis of morphic resonance, mimicking the activity of their counterparts in ancestral organisms. In other words, there's no conflict. That said, if a secondary source claims a conflict, we are free to include that in the article. As to devoting a section of notes to sources critical of Sheldrake, I think it contributes to the appearance of bias. It's especially inappropriate in a biography. Alfonzo Green (talk) 00:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Or on the same level of plausibility as morphic resonance, fairies could be popping in and waving their magic wands or aliens from the planet Gizunthobar are sending plytoplaszomic rays via the phogensophere. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

It's this kind of bias that makes you unsuitable to edit the Sheldrake biography. Alfonzo Green (talk) 23:07, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Thats not bias, thats responding to the incessant nonsense on this page with the level of snark it deserves. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:29, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Alfonzo Green (talk · contribs) - please, if you want to start commenting on scientific theories, please go and first read a basic primer in biology, in particular genetics and developmental biology. Epigenesis does not contradict theories in genetics and developmental biology - it is part of them. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Again with the insults. As I stated above, despite the elimination of genetic reductionism in its original form, theorists generally assume that genes are somehow still in control. Alfonzo Green (talk) 23:07, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I took a stab at getting rid of the section here. I can't really reduce the reference lists more than that because so many of the sources are inaccessible, but my feeling is that more of them could be struck from the second section as marginal with some examination. Wnt (talk) 05:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

War over the POV tag

I was originally intended to protect the article for a day or two due to the war over the POV template but given User:Barleybannocks' latest edits I'm going to AGF and hope that you can move past the POV template conflict and actually discuss and address the issues. However a general warning, if edit warring continues (whether there are also other edits or not) there will be sanctions, such as full protection, blocks or revert restrictions under discretionary sanctions. Please talk about the issue, not about the template. Thank you, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:54, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I am very much just a sideline observer of this page right now. IMHO, it would help greatly if editors would more carefully stick to commenting on the content, not the contributor, per WP:NPA. Lou Sander (talk) 17:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

The POV tag is amply justified, for now. Guy (Help!) 12:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

How many scientists and critics?

Further to our previous discussions above (permalink) on the numeric ambiguity of the clause starting the third paragraph, "Scientists and sceptics..."[54] I brought this up at WP:RS Noticeboard "How many scientists and critics?" (permalink). I am now happy to fully agree with Barney that (a) "the majority of authorities on a particular subject will simply ignore it", (b) "a small number of authorities have spoken against a particular view, and yet a small number of others have also spoken in favour of it."

It seems quite proper to prefix our clause "A small number of scientists and sceptics..." to reflect our joint understanding of this view.--Iantresman (talk) 16:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

It's not my understanding. You're deliberately ignoring the ignorers in order to try to present a misleading view of the scientific consensus on this issue. This is disingenuous and not compatible with policy. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:51, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

If the majority have ignored it, and a small number have been heavily critical, and a small number somewhat supportive, then why don't we just say that. Why pretend we know what the ignorers think/would think and attribute out intuitions/desired position to them as if it's fact? Barleybannocks (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure Barney is not claiming to know the opinion of a group of people, about something they are unaware (because they ignore it)? --Iantresman (talk) 17:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

We've been through this before Iantresman (talk · contribs) - the hypothesis would begin to show wider acceptance by scientists citing Sheldrake's work in their peer-reviewed papers, or by permitting Sheldrake's papers through peer review. This is WP:REDFLAG on WP:FRINGE. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

What's the extraordinary claim supposed to be here? All we're talking about is many people ignoring Sheldrake's theories (that's not extraordinary), some people being heavily critical of Sheldrake (that's not extraordinary), and some people being somewhat supportive (that's not extraordinary). What's REDFLAG got to do with any of this? Nobody is suggesting the articles suggest Sheldrake's theories are true and/or widely accepted - quite the contrary.Barleybannocks (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) but did you actually read WP:REDFLAG? (hint it's #4). Sheldrake has made several extraordinary claims. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Barney, I did read it, did you? There are no extraordinary claims being put forward with respect to this particular issue. See my comment above for details. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

"Hypothesis", yes good word. I actually disagree with you here. There are always going to be some hypotheses which people just ignore, or whose time is not right. A good example, is Kristian Birkeland's 1908 theory that auroral currents are derived from solar charged particles. Birkeland's ideas were generally ignored in favour of an alternative theory from British mathematician Sydney Chapman.[55] It took over 70 years for satellites to find evidence that was actually consistent with Birkeland. Imagine if Wikipedia has dismissed Birkeland, and incorrectly gave the impression that this was unanimous, when it was just some British scientists. Likewise Hannes Alfven was largely ignored,[56] despite going on to win the Nobel Prize in physics. --Iantresman (talk) 17:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

In which case, Iantresman (talk · contribs) we have to wait until an idea is accepted by the scientific community before giving the impression to readers that it is actually accepted. Before then it's misleading, and you know it. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney, absolutely nobody is saying we should give the impression to readers that Sheldrake's views are accepted. See virtually every section above (including this one) and in the archives. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:45, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Agree totally, and have never said otherwise. We do not pretend that Sheldrake's hypotheses have any more credibility, veracity or verifiability, than we a attribute to sources. Just because we state that he has a hypothesis, has done tests, have had his results published, is not to imply any of these. It is our basic use of prose that allows to state these facts neutrally per WP:NPOV. That dogs are telepathic: very contentious and subject to all the requirements for multiple reliable source. That Sheldrake suggests that dogs are telepathic, not contentious, because we're not claiming any veracity for his hypothesis. Isaac Newton believe in the occult. No big deal. --Iantresman (talk) 18:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

In the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard: Scientists with unconventional beliefs unreliable source?

The question: "How do we determine if we can use a scientist with unconventional beliefs, as a reliable source, or is this just an Association fallacy?" by Barnabypage (talk)

The last, and to the point reply was:

"I'll try answering the original question in a slightly different way. The beliefs of authors are not things we should judge on Wikipedia. We know we can cite an author about subject X when that author is considered reliable outside Wikipedia for subject X. But concerning subject Y, we have nothing to say unless we are talking about subject Y, and then we also look at what people outside Wikipedia think of the author and subject Y. We try to reflect what is in publications. It is possible for a person to be considered a lunatic by experts in one field and a genius in another, at the same time. It is not for us to judge that, just to work out what the published experts say in each field.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC"

This should provide guidance in reevaluating the reliability of sources, especially the numerous psychologists, mathematicians and physicists commenting on a subject in biology. Tom Butler (talk) 18:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

This makes sense, otherwise we could claim prejudice because someone "believes in a god", or argue that no republican or democrat could edit the article on democrats, because they would both have beliefs to prejudice the article. As has been mentioned Isaac Newton believe in the occult, but it doesn't prejudice our views on his work on gravity. --Iantresman (talk) 18:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

The sources are reliable. What none of you is considering is that the sources quoted are effectively acting as spokespeople for the scientific community. Iantresman (talk · contribs)'s original proposal is a pathetically transparent attempt to represent these views as individual views rather than the prevailing mainstream consensus. The latter requires per WP:FRINGE that it is properly identified as the mainstream view. No pretending that it isn't, or that there isn't a mainstream view. Last time I checked, Brian Charlesworth, Steven Rose and Lewis Wolpert were all biologists. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:20, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense. Sheldrake published his hypotheses. We simple frame this fact in context. Rose said he repeated the experiments but did not come to the same conclusion. Other scientists rejected Shreldrake's hypotheses. Josephson disagreed with some of them. Maddox wrote in Nature that he thought it was pseudoscience. Nobody would think we are trying to promote Shreldrake, or claim any credibility or veracity. --Iantresman (talk) 18:27, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

If so, why do you insist on trying to create the impression that these scientists aren't presenting a mainstream view despite the WP:REDFLAG that indicates they are? Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:50, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

That Rose did experiments and published in peer review is part of the mainstream. Other scientists are part of the mainstream, and give their views. The views they offer must all be mainstream. If you want to be sure, state "The then editor of Nature, John Maddox wrote....", and the "prof. of biology, Rose stated...". --Iantresman (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney, now you must show where someone like Gardner, M. (1988). The New Age: notes of a fringe-watcher. Prometheus books. "Almost all scientists who have looked into Sheldrake's theory consider it balderdash." [57] has been voted as a spokesman.

Gardner was a well-known skeptic and had a vested interest in being right as one (COI). he was also trained as a mathematician and holds no apparent qualifications as a biologist. Yet, his 1988 comment about what other scientists thought of Sheldrake's work is used as one of the many references to discredit the still-living man.

Some of the references are obviously appropriate, but some also need to be removed as being unreliable sources base don the admin's comment. Tom Butler (talk) 19:50, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:REDFLAG the burden is on those who wish to imply that the extraordinary claims of Sheldrake have any type of measurable support in the mainstream academic world. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Yep, we can see through our own policies that WP:REDFLAG, that Gardner's assessment is clearly correct, and no reasonable person could deny it. Note that Gardner isn't stating his own personal view, he's stating an observation of the reaction of the scientific community. He could be a supporter of Sheldrake and make the same, accurate, observation. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:06, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

You are both just expressing opinion. Show me where the burden of proof is on one party or another. in fact, the admin made it clear that the content of the statement and training of the speaker was the test of reliability.

Show me! Tom Butler (talk) 20:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Er Tom Butler (talk · contribs), you might have missed it but I think TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) and I both referenced the policies at length they're at WP:REDFLAG, and WP:FRINGE. If you disagree with those policies, arguing about them here isn't the place to get them changed. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Er Barney, neither of those apply unless you are referring to Gardner as a fringe source. Tom Butler (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Erm Tom Butler (talk · contribs), the policies are quoted with regards to "morphic resonance" which is Sheldrake's big idea. As a clear statement of fact, it doesn't really matter how Gardner is viewed. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

No-one is claiming that morphic resonance is true. We are stating the verifiable fact that Sheldrake has put forward a hypothesis concerning morphic resonance is true. There are dozens of sources, from both critics and a few supporters that ALL agree that he has done so. This has nothing to do with WP:REDFLAG. There is no contentious claim. --Iantresman (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Re Iantresman's point. Consider the moon-cheese theory. Most scientists completely ignore it. A few people advocate it, a few rebut it. We write a biography of a* proponent. According to Iantresman's theory, our treatment of the casein theory of lunar geology in that article should say "a few scientists and skeptics dispute it".

The sources we now have establish the fact that Sheldrake's ideas are comprehensively rejected. They reflect the consensus. If there were evidence of significant independent study of morphic resonance among biologists or any other scientists then Iantresman's argument might stand. In science, a valid idea is one which can be tested and developed by others. Ian, do you have evidence of any significant publications building on Sheldrake's work in the peer-reviewed biological literature? Independent replications of his proposed experiments in high-impact journals, for example? Guy (Help!) 20:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but the moon cheese theory was not put forward by an expert on the moon, nor supported in various ways by multiple moon experts and other scientists. There are no solid sources suggesting, for example, that the moon cheese theory is the "life's blood of science". There are no Nobel Laureates who support it. There are not regular articles offering some support for the theory or the person who put forward that theory. In this and many other ways, then, the analogy fails, and as such should not determine how we treat the theory that forms one part of this article, nor indeed the remainder of the theories/views by the person who the article is about and which are not specifically related to the theory for which the moon cheese theory was a (dis)analogy. Also, nobody is saying the theory is valid. We are saying that it has some small degree of support in addition to the criticism which dominates a huge chunk opf the current article. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:10, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

You know what, Brian Josephson would probably support that as well, he's supported pretty much every other piece of pseudo-scientific crackpottery going. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:18, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

That is the fallacy of appeal to authority. How do you know my moon-cheese proponent was not a former NASA geologist? Do you want me to find examples of eminently qualified people advancing bonkers ideas? There's no shortage. How about a professor of biology who advocates biblical creationism? Guy (Help!) 21:24, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, but since he's Nobel Laureate, I'm more inclined to give weight to what he says than I am to someone who has very little familiarity with the issue under discussion. That's not to say he is right, but he's also not the only one. David Bohm, eg, did some work with Sheldrake, and above there are a list of multiple experts who feel Sheldrake's work is worth paying attention to. Be that as it may, this is not the place to discuss our own views of the merits of Sheldrake's work. Here we are supposed to go with what the sources say and not with our own particular take on the issue. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:27, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Again, the appeal to authority. Ever heard of the "Nobel disease"? Nobel laureates have advocated all manner of batshit craziness, including eugenics. Guy (Help!) 21:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure they have. But some As have been wrong, therefore this particular A is wrong, is far more fallacious than the appeal to authority you imagined I made. Moreover, Wikipedia content is absolutely based on authority. That's what all the stuff about reliable sources is about. Thus to reject an authority if one doesn't like what they say (and to reject inclusion of the mere fact they said it) is to reject the core principle of the encyclopaedia. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand how science works. It's never about who says a thing, always about how well supported their idea is. Josephson has an extensive history of advocating complete nonsense, to the point that if he did advocate Sheldrake's ideas (I haven't checked) it would be a point against, not for, Sheldrake. But we don't even need to have that discussion: we have no need to head off down the rabbit hole yet again. I refer you to my points made earlier: propose specific changes and the sources that support those changes, minimising your personal opinion, or you're wasting everyone's time. Guy (Help!) 22:11, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't arguing about how science works. I was arguing about how Wikipedia works. It works on the basis of sources. And we have multiple reliable sources, and their content, being suppressed because some editors here dislike what those sources say. Thus I think you should revert your edit which seriously misrepresents Sheldrake's support as only coming from those in the new age movement - something you know, from the many sources cited here, to be false. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:29, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

If Sheldrake were promoting ideas related to superconductivity, you might have a point, Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:40, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

So we should throw out Maddox's views then? We also have Bekoff (biologist) and numerous neuroscience experts, consciousness experts etc etc., offering a degree of support for Sheldrake's theories in those fields. Th article really should cover what the sources say and not what you'd like them to say. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I can cite a professor of biochemistry who advocates biblical creation. I can cite several others who discuss his advocacy in calm tones. His views remain lunatic fringe. With ideas as wide ranging and (if valid) profound as Sheldrake's, the fat that only a tiny handful of people even discuss them is significant in itself. Their discussion is useful in describing Sheldrake's views, no more. We have good sources for the insignificance of support for his views. So, instead of arguing that we've got it all wrong, an assertion for which you've failed to attract meaningful support, instead suggest specific and actionable changes, with good sources. Guy (Help!) 22:19, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that you have it all wrong. I'm citing sources which show you are wrong, and which show your edit changed information which is true to information which is false. In BLPs this should concern you, but clearly your own views on the matter are taking precedence over everything else. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

The point I am trying to make is that Gardner is not qualified to say anything about Sheldrake's hypothesis other than as his opinion which carries no weight in this article. Unless someone can show me where he has been elected as a spokesperson for people who do have the authority, he needs to be removed as a reference. Tom Butler (talk) 23:52, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

You are joking, aren't you? Martin Gardner was one of the best-known authorities on fringe and crank ideas, his book Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science is a foundational text of the rational skeptic movement, and he was a contributor to the Skeptical Inquirer for years. This is one of the least contentious sources in the article! Guy (Help!) 12:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I've corrected the disputed passage so that it matches what the sources say. The sources cited are Lewis Wolpert and Adam Rutherford. Neither explicitly labels morphic resonance pseudoscience. They both bring up the term but in reference to other beliefs. However, I think it's reasonably clear that they regard morphic resonance as pseudoscientific, so I think it's okay to say that this view is implied. Neither of them says anything about Sheldrake contributing to public misunderstanding of science, so I've deleted that part of the passage. Now the problem is that even though we now have a fully sourced statement, it might be too detailed for the opening section. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

For values of "corrected" that encompass the incorrect. Don't do that again, please. Guy (Help!) 21:59, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Morphogenesis v. morphogenetic fields

Up there ↑ it's stated that we should have more on the concept of morphogenesis, which conflicts with Sheldrake, and less about his imagined concept of morphogenetic fields. I think it would be interesting to contrast the valid with the nonsensical in this way, but obviously we cannot blaze the trail. My Google-fu is clearly weak as I am having a great deal of difficulty finding any reliable sources where experts in morphogensis point out hos it conflicts with Sheldrake, or indeed mentioning him at all in conjunction with the valid concept. Anyone have any suggestions for content here? Guy (Help!) 20:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

You seem to have very strong opinions on the matter, but your opinion is in conflict with many notable scientists and multiple reliable sources. Does your status as an administrator on Wikipedia allow you to overrule sources in this way? The scientists in question are listed above, as are many articles discussing Sheldrake's ideas in a way far more reasonable that the article currently has it. Grateful if you could explain what the role of sources are re wikipedia if not to determine content? Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

This is due to sampling error. See my comment above re the moon-cheese theory. When virtually the entire relevant professional community completely ignores an idea, it tends to be because it is abject nonsense. Morphic resonance is exactly that. Reliable sources reviewing the reaction to it, establish that beyond doubt. The few people who don't reject it out of hand as completely lacking any valid basis in fact, are useful for describing the theory, but not to establish its legitimacy.

Remember, if morphic resonance were true, it would necessitate a wholesale revision of all of biology and also of significant areas of physics. It has much in common with psychic phenomena: the existence of scientific discussion and open-minded investigation is asserted by believers to be evidence of validity, but it isn't. Guy (Help!) 21:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

You seem not to understand the issue under discussion here. Nobody is trying to claim the theory is legitimate, or has been accepted widely. This point has been made literally dozens of times at almost every stage of almost every discussion. The point is simply that it does have a small degree of support - as you acknowledge above - and yet you have just edited that fact out of the article contra multiple reliable sources.Barleybannocks (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Yes, I understand the issue. I have read through the debate and archives, it took me a long time. The pro-Sheldrake editors want to minimise the degree of marginalisation of Sheldrake's ideas and advance his attempts to use philosophical rhetoric in place of scientific rigour. I have seen this may times before in other fields where absolute self-belief collides with empirically testable fact. Any reference to Kuhn is a dead giveaway! Guy (Help!) 21:33, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. The neutral editors (eg, me) want to include a brief statement in the introduction detailing what we know to be the case in virtue of multiple reliable sources and other are intent on keeping that well-sourced information out of the article for some reason. And the part you specifically misunderstand is the difference between the theory being widely considered valid and it having a small degree of support. Thus you argue against the former as if it was the same point as the latter. It isn't. As the above, and the archived, discussion, and multiple reliable sources clearly show. Thus the article currently has false information, where previously it had true information, and all without any consensus here either. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

As long as you are determined to portray your own bias as neutrality, you are wasting everybody's time. Guy (Help!) 22:20, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't have any great bias as regards Sheldrake. This can be seen, eg, in the way I am able to talk about him in a clam manner without each post being charged with emotion and full of invective. I perfectly well understand that his ideas have gained almost no traction in the scientific community and that a few people have issued strong denunciations. This seems to contrast me with others here who cannot speak about him without abusing him, and cannot even admit that a number of top-quality scientists have supported his ideas in one way or another, and are editing the article so that it excludes that support entirely and/or misrepresents it.Barleybannocks (talk) 22:42, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

So you say. But you're a single purpose account whose edits all seem to get reverted, and I'm an admin and email response volunteer with a long history of working on contentious biographies and dealing directly with article subjects' concerns.

You could always try, as I keep saying, suggesting specific changes with the reliable independent secondary sources that support them. You don't seem to have quite got the hang of that: saying that text noting limited scientific support for Sheldon can be supported by primary sources and the woo-monger Chopra is a case in point. If you can find a sentence in the MAddox commentary that says he has limited support among scientists, that would be completely acceptable. Can you see the difference? In one case you're deciding who is reliable and counting them to see if they are many or few, in the other an authority in the field of science is presenting a conclusion about the level of support within science. And of course if someone else reliable says there's massive support for Sheldrake we can use that too, but I am pretty confident that isn't the case. Guy (Help!) 12:24, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

One of the problems with trying to achieve consensus here is that all the neutral editors have been bullied away and will no longer participate. See here [58], here [59], here [60], and here [61]. Barleybannocks (talk) 12:38, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

So you admit to not being neutral then Barleybannocks. I suppose that growing self realisation is a start. Also worth noting that the claims of bullying were not supported by the Powers here either. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 12:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't admit to that. I have likewise been bullied away inasmuch as I am no longer allowed to edit the article. And the claims of bullying were neither supported nor rejected - it was felt that the current powers were sufficient to deal with the problem. Be that a it may, your lack of concern that four editors with no axe to grind feel they were bullied away with constant attacks on their motives etc, by a small element fiercely opposed to Sheldrake, tells us all we need to know about your neutrality. Barleybannocks (talk) 12:51, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

"The pro-Sheldrake editors ... Any reference to Kuhn is a dead giveaway!" Usually I hate txteze, but the only thing I can say to that is LOL. Oh yes, that evil pseudoscientist Thomas Kuhn, promoting his woo. Anybody who has an understanding of philosophy-of-mind, Chalmers thru John McCarthy, they are ALL WOO-MEISTERS! Guy, you have seen this all before, you say. Did it ever occur to you, that the world is not as full of woo-meisters around every corner as you might think? Did you ever consider that maybe NPOV means sticking to the RS, that maybe UNDUE means sticking to the RS, and that maybe when Barleybannocks says they see neutrality problems here, and I say the same, and David_in_DC says the same, and in response *you* tell us that only the skeptic POV is truly neutral, that possibly *you* might be mistaken?

  I note that Vzaak is also a one-purpose-account, just like Barleybannocks, but I don't see you giving him trouble about it. Please recall that we welcome people here that are just interested in one topic-area, they tend to be experts. "As long as you are determined to portray your own bias as neutrality, you are wasting everybody's time." That is excellent advice, Guy, please take it yourself... or explain how following what the Reliable Sources say is Bad And Wrong And Offensive, without referencing WP:MAINSTREAM please. Anyhoo, apologies you feel alone Barleybannocks, but as you point out, neutrality has left the building. But it's not dead, it hasn't left the county; do your best to stick to the sources, and keep to the moral high ground, follow pillar four like a rock. Correction: be WP:NICE you dern woo-meister sheldrake-fanboi, you, is what I mean to say.  ;-)   Sigh. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 22:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

  p.s. Roxy, and Barney (and welcome back TRPoD), since you are all largely convinced that JzG and jps are correct, and that anybody who believes the currently article is non-neutral must be a Sheldrake-fanboi, I'll keep this short and sweet. By lumping good BLP-oriented perfectly-NPOV editors like David_in_DC into the same pile as *actual* Sheldrake fanbois, you are shooting yourselves in the foot. Make sense? I hope so. p.p.s. By the same token, the longer the war goes on, to pretend that SPOV==NPOV in at least the Sheldrake mainspace if not the rest of the project, the more famous Sheldrake gets out in the real world. Is scepticm best served, by downplaying the man's credentials, and his ever-so-mild amount of success, here on wikipedia? WP:RS==NPOV, and Barleybannocks is trying to stick to the WP:RS, not wiggle out of them by using "adminstrative experience" to divide them into two piles, one "serious" and the other "virtually". HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 22:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Normally, morphogenesis has a number of mechanisms, some really weird. For example, a protein might be produced at one end of a cell, the cell divides into many, and the different cells know they have various fates based on how much is present. That's the classic Drosophila egg model, but it is actually a very unusual system even for insects. More commonly, a factor (morphogen) is secreted into the space around the cells, different cells see different amounts, and react to it. But why doesn't it wash around randomly and lead to random results? Well, there's some very careful chemistry going in in the extracellular matrix - cells are coated with strands of heparin and similar sugars, and some factors seem to stay stuck within them. Others stay anchored to one cell and only affect those it touches. But is that all? Not hardly. It turns out that cells produce narrow little filopodia that can reach around and poke others, or exosomes that carry little bits of the cytoplasm around. And they stick to other cells by gap junctions that let proteins move back and forth communicating information. And then there's the weird stuff from the literature you don't know what to make of, like homeobox transcription factors somehow making it through cell membranes on their own by some quirk of protein chemistry. Sometimes something mechanical matters - it turns out that situs inversus is avoided by some aspect of the current flow around a primary cilium that rotates always in one direction, letting the organism figure out which way is 'left'. And cells each have cell polarity so they know which way they themselves are facing. And... well, anyway, here's the real point: all these mechanisms are really, really, really specific. Morphogenesis doesn't work on platitudes, it needs a plan. I'm not familiar with Sheldrake's work, but he really has some explaining to do to communicate to us how one specific instruction to bend this way or that, divide or not, gets to one specific cell, not its neighbors that are supposed to do something else. As you search, look for these specifics (something akin to his claim that a new crystal would affect crystallization rates anywhere in the world - cosmos??) and then you'll get more direct comparisons. Wnt (talk) 21:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Misrepresentation in a blp

I propose we change the current text in the intro which misrepresents Sheldrake support as only coming from followers of the new age, when we know, given multiple reliable sources, that Sheldrake has received support from some within the scientific community. I therefore suggest we say something like, "despite the largely critical reception to his work from the mainstream scientific community, Sheldrake has received a small degree of academic support for his ideas, as well as attracting a following from supporters of the new age movement." The main advantage this has over the current version is that: a) it is true whereas the current version is false, or deceptive, or both; and b) we can source it to multiple reliable sources rather than having to suppress them. All important stuff, I feel, in a BLP.Barleybannocks (talk) 22:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Here's a list of sources (once again) which support the above edit.

These are a number of scientists who have offered support for Sheldrake in various ways.

Marc Bekoff, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder. [62]

These four all signed an open letter to TED that was published in the Huffington Post [63] (Links to their credentials can be found above on a previous post.)

Menas C. Kafatos, Ph.D., is the Fletcher Jones Endowed Professor of Computational Physics and the Director of the Center of Excellence at Chapman University

Stuart Hameroff, MD, Professor of Anesthesiology and Psychology, Director, Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona

Rudolph E. Tanzi, Ph.D., Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard University, Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital

Neil Theise, MD, Professor, Pathology and Medicine, (Division of Digestive Diseases) Beth Israel Medical Center - Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York.

Here's one who also explicitly rejects the accusation of pseudoscience in a letter published in nature:

Brian Josephson, Nobel Laureate in Physics.[64]

And here's an academic who argues, amongst other things, that books such as Sheldrake's, whatever you ultimately think about morphic resonance, are the "life's blood of Science" (thus not pseudoscience).

Theodore Roszak, Professor Emeritus of history at California State University, East Bay [65]

Here's a scientist who worked with Sheldrake in developing some of his theories.

David Joseph Bohm FRS - "American theoretical physicist who contributed innovative and unorthodox ideas to quantum theory, philosophy of mind, and neuropsychology. He is widely considered to be one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century." [66]

Here's [67] an entire issue of the Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted exclusively to Sheldrake's work. That would appear toi fulfil the requirement for academic discussion of his work. Especially when taken in tandem with all the other academic books and article Iantresman and others have cited above. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

And here's the list of sources that support the current version

Barleybannocks (talk) 23:07, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

its covered under "The move and framing prompted accusations of censorship," probably overcovered as 4 voices represent a non measurable fraction of the scientific community. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:19, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

It isn't covered by that at all. There are multiple ways that particular policy/guideline would have to be misread to suggest that it does. And, given the article is actually about Sheldrake, and the specific section is about his support, it clearly warrants mention. Plus there are more than 4 - there are 6 listed above, and there are numerous others in many posts in the talk page and archives. I do note, though, that there probably only about 4 who have called his work "pseudoscience" yet that minority view is currently portrayed, falsely, as the view of almost every scientist in the world, while the mainstream science view is completely absent.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:29, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

The mainstream view is thus: "Rupert who?". Guy (Help!) 23:52, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Those who say "who" can't have been engaged in any criticism as the article currently falsely claims/implies, otherwise they would know who. In any event, we now have even more reliable sources including a whole issue of a peer-reviewed journal devoted to his work, which shows the current article to be even more obviously false than it already was. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I think Barleybannocks' point is that this is not an argument about the validity of the hypothesis, but it is about a balanced representation of the hypothesis. If you insist on including a critique of the hypothesis in this BLP, then it is necessary to be very careful not to be seen as pilling on. Observers of this editing fiasco have expressed dismay on a number of occasions that the hypothesis is not separated from the BLP in the first place.

I see a lot of authoritative pronouncements about the validity of the hypothesis from editors here. Unless you are willing to submit your statement as a verifiable reference in the article, it has no standing.

Finally, please stop insisting that anyone who does not agree with you is ignoring the need for NPOV. What many of us are saying is that your understanding of it is simply incorrect (we can read the policy too). It is reasonable to say that the hypothesis has received some support but has been generally rejected by the majority of scientists who have evaluated it. Then provide one or two references for both side ... end of subject. Once you begin a list of pro and con references there really is no end to what will need to be added with each new study. Tom Butler (talk) 00:19, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I just looked at all the citations up above. I previously only really looked at those in the article. I have to say that my view of The Rupester is changing from "he's a whacky-thinking outlier, but he deserves a fair article" to "hey, some serious people have praised and are praising his work, and he still deserves a fair article."

Who here would object to a draft of an addition to the article that reported and summarized the views represented in those citations? Lou Sander (talk) 00:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I am getting a bit tired of what appears to be a willful ignorance of the archives, but suffice to say that the list of supporters of Rupert Sheldrake ranges from known pseudoscientists and alternative medicine practitioners, emergent ecologists and psychologists who have been criticized for being pseudoscientific themselves, and two physicists who are caught in the Roger Penrose trap of thinking that consciousness is not well-understood by neuroscience (a trap that also entices many philosophers). The point is that this list of scientists being repeated on these pages who support Sheldrake does not indicate that there is any movement whatsoever by the mainstream community to take Sheldrake's claims any more seriously. In polling, it's almost axiomatic that you can find a few examples that will support any position. That's what we have here (similar to those lists that creationists push out on scientists who reject Darwinism). Now, someday lurker may start a Project Steve to show that the vast majority of scientists dismiss Sheldrake out-of-hand, but, fortunately, he doesn't have enough traction outside of TEDx events to require such wastes of time. Wikipedia, however, can identify that these scientists are not reliable sources for demarcating mainstream understanding (since they are all on a whole, themselves, out on limbs) and further can rely on WP:ITA not to use this tiresome list as evidence that there is some level of disagreement as to what the mainstream understanding of Sheldrake's nonsense actually is. jps (talk) 12:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree Lou, the situation with regard to Sheldrake is very well know - mostly ignored, widely criticised, but narrowly supported. A situation which is substantially different, fwiw, with regards to his philosophical critique of scientism in Science Set Free which is quite widely supported in academia (more inasmuch as people agree with the basic idea rather than explicitly agreeing with Sheldrake's recent work which they may not have seen). I therefore think the article desperately needs some additional commentary covering these things, and would welcome any draft you can provide. Barleybannocks (talk) 00:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. And for the record, for the umpteenth time, I do not believe in telepathy. --Iantresman (talk) 00:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Wooly thinkers eh!. Can't live with 'em, the world would be a duller place without 'em. Thank goodness for WP:FRINGE Oh yes, and the ruling on Pseudoscience here on wiki. Can't get away from it. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 02:26, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

As you note above, Sheldrake's ideas are generally dismissed or ignored. I have nothing against including a short sentence on the limited support he does have, provided it's worded neutrally. Can you identify a suitable quote from a reliable secondary source that makes this point? Listing individuals is WP:SYN and not allowed. The problem here is that, for example, the Bekoff page is a primary source and Chopra is a new-religionist crackpot, not a scientist or a reliable commentator on matters of science. Guy (Help!) 12:17, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

The short statement - neutrally worded - was what was in the article before. I suggest "a small degree of academic support". Barleybannocks (talk) 12:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Based on what reliable independent secondary source that states there is a small degree of academic support? Remember, we cannot infer this from digging up the few supporters ourselves. Guy (Help!) 12:52, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

How about "that Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields have been taken seriously by more physicists than biologists is to be expected.", in a book by David F Haight [68], published by the University Press of America [69]Barleybannocks (talk) 13:03, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

And then there's this from Bryan Appleyard, which appeared in the Sunday Times. "Morphic resonance is widely derided and narrowly supported." [70] As I said, these are well known facts, that are covered in one sense or another virtually everywhere Sheldrake is discussed except, currently, Wikipedia. Barleybannocks (talk) 13:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

And you could pick any number from here [71]. For example, "of all the scientific journals, New Scientist has undoubtedly been the most supportive of Sheldrake, having published a number of sympathetic articles on formative causation over the years." And this: "when he has not been ignored, however, Sheldrake's peers have expressed everything from outraged condemnation to the highest praise." Barleybannocks (talk) 13:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see evidence of the "highest praise". The key problem with all of these statements is that they are overemphasising the acceptance of Sheldrake's work, apparently in order to create a sense of controversy in the article. However, and rather dully, there is no controversy - the true level of acceptance amongst scientists is so small as to be negligible, and those that do support have their own credibility issues. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

As I said, that is obviously your opinion, but it is contradicted by multiple reliable sources. And your claim that all his supporters have their own credibility issues is, of course, invented (see above for the impeccable credentials and lofty mainstream positions occupied by many of his supporters). Barleybannocks (talk) 14:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

From the sidelines: I agree with Guy that we can't infer degrees of support from digging up individual references. I agree with Barley that the nature and level of support for Morphic is not properly revealed in the article (I only learned of it from reading this talk page). I have a concern that the lead, when talking about support or criticism, maybe isn't summarizing material that is in the body of the article. I do not think that any of the posts under this heading, with the exception of one, are disruptive or unhelpful. They seem to me to be proper discussions of serious matters, held among editors with differing views. Lou Sander (talk) 14:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - physicists "believe Josephson richly deserved his 1973 Nobel prize, few believe he has done work of any merit since [NB: remember what we said about doing science] , while some argue that his flirtation with transcendental meditation and the paranormal has been intellectually disastrous." [Royal Mail's Nobel guru in telepathy row, the Observer]. Let's not get started on Chopra as we'll be here all week. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, this isn't an article about Josephson. Secondly, it isn't an article about Chopra. Thirdly, the impeccable credentials and lofty academic posts held by many supporters of Sheldrake are detailed and linked to above. Fourth, the articles just cited clearly support the edit under discussion since they are virtually verbatim. So, we have reliable secondary sources saying there is support and we even have many examples of the support listed. I don't see the need for continued debate amongst editors, and about the views of editors, on this straightforward issue. Sheldrake has a small degree of support from within the scientific community. Barleybannocks (talk) 14:38, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Frame it properly Barleybannock. Sheldrake has a homeopathic, rather than small, level of support from within the scientific community. Frankly, that level of support shouldn't even be mentioned. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 15:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

As an uninvolved admin watching, Roxy the dog there are sources which suggest Sheldrake has a small amount of (serious, not homeopathic) support, do you have sources to present which show that the support is homeopathic? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I think what s/he means Callanecc, is that Sheldrake's support is metaphorically homeopathic (ie, diluted to nothing). Thus we should not use the sources I cited because they are mistaken, the truth being known to editors here by mean/sources unknown. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:17, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

However as has already been established in this section the information should be included in the article, and sources have been suggested, so rather than a general comment, a comment needs to be made directly on the sources presented or the presentation of other sources which support that point of view. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:20, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I know that, and I know that is how it is supposed to work. But that doesn't happen here. Sources are requested; multiple sources are provided; sources are even provided demonstrating the truth of the claims made in the sources that were requested/provided; and then all of that is rejected by editor argument. That's why almost all the neutral editors left (as detailed on the recent arbitration request by at least four people no longer really involved due to exactly this kind of thing).Barleybannocks (talk) 15:27, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Callanecc (talk · contribs), I'm honestly not aware of any true support which would involve scientists seriously attempting "morphic resonance"-related research, coming to similar conclusions, publishing that research in a peer-reviewed journal, and have their peers cite and build on their work and so on. The closest we have are a few who demand "more research" without actually conducting any themselves (this is a bit akin to criticising a Wikipedia article and not fixing it), a few who apparently believe in things such as parapsychology that most scientists don't (yet before confirming this with research, see point 1), and finally a few who support Sheldrake's right to free speech. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok so before we move on any further Barleybannocks have you found a quote which meets the requirements above? Barney (I assume it's ok to call you Barney?) while not breaching WP:SYN do you have an objection to something like "a small degree of academic support" or the quote which Barley finds, as long as it is reliable? The main point which has been expressed regarding this is that something should be included, because it is strange and might leave something missing for the reader. So assuming we can find a source so that it isn't WP:OR is that ok with you, or do you have another suggestion? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:41, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy with the "small degree of academic support", which is supported by all three sources cited above. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

No, that is not going to fly without a proper source to support it. Here's why: the few scientists who have defended Sheldrake to a limited degree, have primarily defended his right to debate the scientific process and how science decides what is fact and what is hypothesis. This is being portrayed as support for his conjectures, but this is not necessarily true. That's why we can't use primary sources, we need a reliable secondary source that analyses the degree of support his conjectures have, as opposed to the degree of support for his right to advance his conjectures. Even the Chopra piece on the TEDx debacle makes it plain that most of the support he has received has been on this latter basis. Guy (Help!) 16:23, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

No, the first source says more physicists than biologists have supported his theory of morphic resonance; the second says morphic resonance has been widely derided and narrowly supported; and the third says that New Scientist has published papers supportive of formative causation. Thus the three sources cited above (at your request) all make statements about the support for his scientific work within the scientific community, and do not, as you suggest, focus on his freedom of speech. 16:36, 6 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs)

Bannocks: Help us here... which three sources? ("Above" includes a LOT of territory, some of it very far away.) Lou Sander (talk) 20:01, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

These were the three sources I offered in response to Guy's request. He says they deal with freedom of speech, whereas I say they refer to Sheldrake's theories.

"That Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields have been taken seriously by more physicists than biologists is to be expected.", in a book by David F Haight [72], published by the University Press of America [73]

And then there's this from Bryan Appleyard, which appeared in the Sunday Times. "Morphic resonance is widely derided and narrowly supported." [74]

And you could pick any number from here [75]. For example, "of all the scientific journals, New Scientist has undoubtedly been the most supportive of Sheldrake, having published a number of sympathetic articles on formative causation over the years." And this: "when he has not been ignored, however, Sheldrake's peers have expressed everything from outraged condemnation to the highest praise." Barleybannocks (talk) 20:08, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that here we have a clear proposed statement that seems well supported by suitable sources. --Nigelj (talk) 20:48, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the proposed phrase should be added to the existing sentence in the lede, as proposed in the first post in this section. Regarding the lede covering material that is not in the body of the article, an expanded version of this phrase, covering the material from all four sources should IMHO be added as a new third paragraph in the section 'In scientific and popular culture', above the existing paragraph about the New Age response. That last paragraph there, incidentally, should be expanded to provide coverage of the Deepak Chopra statement from the lede. Doing these things would greatly improve the NPOV of this article within the context of WP:FRINGE, I think. --Nigelj (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry Nigelj (talk · contribs) - I know the title is "Misrepresentation in a blp", but to which particular wording of Barleybannock (talk · contribs)'s attempts to misrepresent the WP:FRINGE and WP:REDFLAG obvious conclusion "Sheldrake enjoys virtually no support in the scientific community" are you referring? Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

The statement is a negative. Turn it around and explain what support he does enjoy. We could equally say that Sheldrake has had little criticism from the scientific community, based on the handful of vociferous comments out of the hundreds of thouands of scientists worldwide, but that would be misleading. --Iantresman (talk) 21:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I personally have no problem with "Morphic resonance is widely derided and narrowly supported" as cited, since this speaks directly to MR and does not conflate support for Sheldrake's right to write nonsense with validation of the nonsense he writes. It also appears to be an accurate reflection of the state of scientific acceptance of MR, as far as I can tell from my still continuing reading. I have also ben reading "The Science Delusion". It is self-serving and fallacious. I am quite angry I bothered; Kuhn it is not. Guy (Help!) 21:19, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Focus

It is proposed that the existing sentence in the lede as follows:

While the response to his work from the scientific community is largely critical, Sheldrake has a following among supporters of the New Age movement.

be changed to read

Despite the largely critical reception to his work from the mainstream scientific community, Sheldrake has received a small degree of academic support for his ideas, as well as attracting a following from supporters of the New Age movement.

with sourcing based on a selection from

• "That Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields have been taken seriously by more physicists than biologists is to be expected.", in a book by David F Haight [76], published by the University Press of America [77]
• This from Bryan Appleyard, which appeared in the Sunday Times. "Morphic resonance is widely derided and narrowly supported." [78]
• From here [79]. For example, "of all the scientific journals, New Scientist has undoubtedly been the most supportive of Sheldrake, having published a number of sympathetic articles on formative causation over the years." And this: "when he has not been ignored, however, Sheldrake's peers have expressed everything from outraged condemnation to the highest praise."

Please comment only on the proposal, preferably by suggesting better wording or better sources. --Nigelj (talk) 21:24, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy with your suggested wording. It is well sourced, appropriately written for an encyclopaedia, and demonstrably true.Barleybannocks (talk) 21:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. --Iantresman (talk) 21:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

You would. --Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Philosophers opining on science are not particularly reliable sources. For exampe, the academia.edu link describes New Scientist as a "journal". There is no peer review in New Scientist last I checked. jps (talk) 12:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

• I prefer:

Despite the largely critical (and even derisive) reception to his work from the scientific community, Sheldrake has received a small degree of academic support for his ideas, as well as attracting a following from supporters of the New Age movement.

The reason is that (a) Appleyard is pretty clear that derision is the main spur for Sheldrake venturing off into criticism of science itself and (b) there is, for all intents and purposes, no relevant scientific community other than the mainstream. There's no evidence that criticism of his ideas is restricted to mainstream scientists, for wall we know cranks in the cold fusion community or some other such backwater may also deride him. Guy (Help!) 21:52, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I think there are several problems with that. Firstly, it's not a very encyclopaedic, nor scientific, way to put it. Secondly, a lot of the derision has been roundly condemned (eg, Chris French said much of it was "uninformed and unfair"). Thus I think it is better to stick with less emotive wording which also covers the more appropriate criticisms from the scientific community. I have no issue with removal of the word mainstream. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:59, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

It's a very accurate reflection of what the sources say, and as such is entirely encyclopaedic. The condemnation is not of morphic resonance, but of Sheldrake's pariah status. MR is generally accepted to be bunk, the condemnation of Sheldrake for his anti-science and anti-atheist rhetoric is generally accepted to be an over-reaction. Chris French is somewhat conflicted, he knows and likes Sheldrake and has worked on testing many of his claims - albeit, as he says, withotu finding any evidence they are correct. Guy (Help!) 22:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

That seems logical Jzg (talk · contribs). It plays the ball not the man, as some of the other quotes do, and it doesn't pretend that there's any greater acceptance (as previously described) than what we can see. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

• I prefer "members of the scientific community" to "the scientific community". The critics are individuals, not representatives of the Royal Society, the National Academy of Sciences, or other groups that might be said to speak for a community. I agree with the undesirability of "derisive." Lou Sander (talk) 22:21, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

True up to a point, but it's important to remember that MR is basically entirely ignored by the relevant academic community, and that is significant. Guy (Help!) 22:28, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I think we should say it has been mainly ignored, but the problem is that people can't deride something and ignore it at the same time. Thus a better way of dealing with this whole thing might be to say it has been ignored, while some have been very critical of it and others supportive. We could also possibly add in the mainstream science view of morphogenesis which is currently excluded entirely in favour of the views of a few scientists. Doing this would also mean readers would get a better impression of why Sheldrake is rejected. That is, because the scientific community feels it will solve the problems Sheldrake identifies by reference to genetics pretty much as currently understood. Maddox makes this point so we have a source also. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:35, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

It is significant that it is insignificant? ;-) Lou Sander (talk) 22:40, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Lou Sander (talk · contribs) - yes, per WP:REDFLAG. And it is significance (no research papers). Meanwhile, scientists continue to ignore his ideas where they would matter (in peer reviewed journals), and attack and deride Sheldrake's ideas in letters to newspapers. So we get ignoring and attacking in different media. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:38, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

and also per WP:ITA-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

"see the Notes section in [80] to verify this"

I'm sure you guys know what this means, but can I suggest that this is never how we cite controversial statements in any article text, let alone in the lede of a BLP article. I see it has been reverted back in, and it is wrong to do so. If a single statement requires 14 citations (in a lede!), then it is probably WP:SYN. Please use one cite per statement, and one that covers the content of the actual statement. --Nigelj (talk) 21:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. --Iantresman (talk) 21:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

The text that the 14 references (which we are meant to go and look up in some old version of the WP article) support begins "Scientists and sceptics have labelled morphic resonance a pseudoscience..." If that weasel-worded statement is to be made, then I'm sure editors here know that we are meant have a single secondary or tertiary source at hand that actually says words along the lines of "Scientists and sceptics have labelled morphic resonance a pseudoscience." The present text is so unsupported by WP policy that I would normally revert it straight out of a BLP article. However it was edited in under the admonition, "Please stop edit warring", and I would hate to end up at AN/I over it. --Nigelj (talk) 21:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

We have plenty of sources. The weasel words are only there because Sheldrake supporters insist on trying to down-play the extent to which Sheldrake's ideas are rejected. Guy (Help!) 21:54, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I've replaced the weasel word statement with a precise statement backed by the cited sources. Barney has already reverted it twice. He has also reverted corrections to inaccurate, unsourced material on parapsychology and the conservation of energy. Alfonzo Green (talk) 22:04, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

One problem is that we don't have many sources that actually say "pseudoscience" and we have many more sources that say his work is scientific (even if wrong). The Guardian actually ran a series of four articles asking the question, science or magic, with regard to Sheldrake's work, and some of those listed above who supposedly said pseudoscience (eg, Sue Blackmore) actually said "scientific" and at no point suggested his work was pseudoscience (none of the four articles said that, fwiw). That being said, it is clear a number of people have made this point and others have used other terms that are almost synonymous, so the claim should definitely be in the article. The extent to which it is claimed, though, is something that needs proper discussion, with sources suitable to the issue at hand, so we may accurately characterise this accusation given BLP. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

@Guy (1) Nonsense. There are no editors that are unhappy stating that some scientists have called Sheldrake's work pseudoscience. (2) Even if it were so, that would not be justification to use the weasel words. (3) If the extent to which Sheldrake's ideas are rejected, you'll have not problems providing reliable secondary sources you say exist. (4) I still agree with Barney:[81] (a) "the majority of authorities on a particular subject will simply ignore it" (b) "a small number of authorities have spoken against a particular view, and yet a small number of others have also spoken in favour of it." --Iantresman (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

that is only an issue because you wish to ignore WP:ITA. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I've implemented the suggested change with the word "derisive" because many of the reactions to Sheldrake from scientists are exactly that. I've also included the term "scientific community" because the statement specifies that this is largely the reaction, not the reaction of every individual scientist. Incidentally, Barney once again reverted my clarification of the pseudoscience charge, this time with the claim that Sheldrake has more than two critics. Okay, great. But the sources list only two critics. If Barney or any other editor wishes to make a generalized statement that Sheldrake's work is viewed as pseudoscience by scientists, we'll need a source that makes exactly that claim. Alfonzo Green (talk) 22:55, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

This is plain tendentiousness. There are a huge number of sources already in the article that identified Sheldrake's proposals with pseudoscience or descriptions synonymous with pseudoscience. It is not anyone's job to put them on a platter for you. The fact that the enormous list of them was removed from the lede does not in any way excuse this kind of pretended bafflement about the plain fact that most people who consider Sheldrake's proposals consider them downright wacky. jps (talk) 03:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

One problem is that a number of the sources cited for "pseudoscience" have plainly said no such thing, and a number of other sources have been "interpreted" beyond interpretation to give that impression. It is therefore reasonable, I think, that such criticism in a BLP be supported with precise quotes here so that we can judge whether the author actually said anything like what is being claimed. Another example is the media section where sources are used that don't really support the point they are used to support at all. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:37, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

This is only a problem in your evaluation. The "interpretation" of a source that uses synonymous descriptions for a pseudoscience is not unreasonable unless you're being pedantic, which it seems is the sort of default mode for many in these discussions. Sheldrake is a pseudoscientist in that he promotes pseudoscience. Others who support pseudoscience disagree with that characterization. It's as simple as that. jps (talk) 19:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

When the source explicitly says "scientific" and the interpretation is "pseudoscientific" then that is a cause for concern. And while such interpretations agree with your opinion on the matter, they don't agree with the source, nor the many other sources that say "scientific", nor the other sources which say there is some debate about the issue. And so while you clearly believe Sheldrake's work is pseudoscientific, your view is firstly irrelevant (unless published in a reliable source), and secondly, it is contradicted by multiple sources from every conceivable type of reliable source. Thus the article should cover the fact that there is a dispute, and that some have said pseudoscience and some have said science. That's how simple it is. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That's a false equivalence and a violation of WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia is a WP:MAINSTREAM encyclopedia that covers WP:FRINGE subjects by paying most attention to the mainstream evaluation of them. The only "controversy" that is here is the one that comes from Sheldrake being upset for being criticized. We are able to describe that fairly without taking sides and by being explicit that he is generally considered a pseudoscientist by those in the know. To try to accommodate other editorial slants (e.g. that those people criticizing Sheldrake aren't really "in the know") is an abrogation of WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NOR. An amazing feat of policy avoidance. jps (talk) 21:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

new edits

Barney, it would be helpful if you could seek consensus on the talk page for your edits. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney has added the following paragraph to the Rose section:

In his next column, Sheldrake again attacked Rose for following "materialism", and argued that quantum physics had "overturned" materialism, and suggested that "memories may turn out to depend on morphic resonance rather than memory traces". Philosopher Alan Malachowski of the University of East Anglia responding to what he called Sheldrake's "latest muddled diatribe", defended materialism, argued that dismissed Rose's explanation with an "absurd rhetorical comparison", asserted that quantum physics was compatible with materialism and argued that "being roughly right about great many things has given [materialists] the confidence to be far more open minded than he is prepared to give them credit for"

I appreciate the attempt to deepen the discussion, but this passage muddies the section, which primarily addresses the experiment they designed and which Rose eventually carried out. The disputed results of this experiment are far more important than a philosophical disagreement they had along the way. Alfonzo Green (talk) 23:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I mostly agree. I think that the Rose section is now too long, and the added information seems to have been added mainly to allow more critical commentary into the article with little in the way of added value. Indeed, the issue of adding in criticism after criticism is one of the main problems with the article imo. Looking at policy/guidelines, it seems more appropriate to have statements of the fact Sheldrake has been criticised rather than trying to impart this point to the reader by lengthy demonstrations. Thus we have various sections where Sheldrake's views are covered in a few words and then the vast bulk of the section (over 80%) is just one quoted criticism after another, often on subjects where the critics are not expert (eg, Rose's criticism of Sheldrake's media appearances). 23:19, 6 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs)

Or we could pretend he's had received no criticism. And some support from the scientific community. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:24, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I know full well that Sheldrake has received a lot of criticism and agree that fact should be well covered in the article. I just don't think we need to write the article in such a way as to facilitate the inclusion of a quote from the vast bulk of it. It seems enough to say that the ideas are rejected with brief reasons, the odd quote, and references. As things stand the article is more a demonstration of the criticism (with apparent full Wikipedia backing even where the criticism has been widely criticised and/or is from a non-expert) rather than a report about it. One can say, eg, that Sheldrake's media appearances have drawn some criticism without taking up 80% of the section to quote it all. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Which criticism is from a "non-expert"? I see don't really see any that is not from a reputable academic. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:35, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

None of the criticism at the start of the media section seems to be from media experts. These are sociology of communication issues and yet people like Rose are quoted, and given massive coverage, as if their views represent the mainstream, or are from experts, within that discipline. On issue like this, people like Rose are just disgruntled scientists whose own views may well be subject to criticisms from experts in that field. Moreover, very few of the sources cited (whitfield appear to be) actually seem to be about Sheldrake's coverage in newspapers, radio, television and his speaking engagements which is what the section is supposed to be about. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

i dont think "media experts" are the sole reliable voice on impact of media on public understanding of science. In fact, scientists would be the experts on that concept. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:54, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I completely disagree. Scientists do not, qua scientists, study the effects of media on people's understanding of science. Some may, and their views, if backed by research etc, should count as expert. But that is not what we have. We just have some scientists who are not media experts complaining. And where media experts have spoken on such issues they have sometimes been critical of the scientific community's attitude to mavericks for a disdainful attitude towards science by the public.Barleybannocks (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

This is the height of tendentiousness. Scientists are equipped to evaluate claims in the media when they are about science. We are discussing claims in the media that are about science. Ergo scientists are qualified to evaluate such claims. Indeed, scientists are more qualified than anyone else to evaluate whether the media is being accurate in its descriptions of science. Some scientists have even made part of their careers out of it. jps (talk) 19:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say scientists aren't equipped to evaluate claims IN the media ABOUT science. I said that scientist are not expert in the sociological analysis of the effects of, or the societal rights and wrongs of, media coverage of science. That is, they may be experts in terms of appraising the scientific content of any scientific claims made, but they are by no means expert in assessing the societal impact of such claims. Thus when Rose et al grumble about the media coverage Sheldrake receives they are just disgruntled scientists grumbling, and their views about the societal effects of such coverage should not be considered anything like on a par with their scientific assessment of scientific claims in their area of expertise. Thus there is no need to allocate 80% of the space in an introduction to a section on Sheldrake's media coverage to the non-scientific, non-expert, views of a few disgruntled scientists.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You are splitting hairs in asinine ways. When scientists "grumble" about attention being paid to pseudoscientists like Sheldrake, they are absolutely evaluating the claims of the media in supporting the errors and/or lies of Rupert Sheldrake. They are equipped to determine that Sheldrake is misconstruing, misrepresenting, and generally making incorrect statements about the subjects in which they are experts. They do not need to be media experts to judge the media for allowing him space to do that. jps (talk) 19:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I disagree both in terms of your conclusion and your assessment of what the criticism was about. At no point in the cited criticism was there any real scientific content of note. It was all just general non-expert grumbling that the world of the media was not the way they would like it to be. As such their non-expert views should be given a line, at most, in the introduction which notes their concerns but does not massively cover it as if it amounted to anything of consequence or as if it had some accepted scientific validity. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

If you aren't competent enough to see where a scientist is judging content for the lack of its scientific basis, then you should probably not be in this conversation. Scientists are expert at what is and isn't science. They grumble when people promote pseudoscience. That's all that's happening here. jps (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

When someone accuses someone of "self-promotion" he is not engaging in any kind of scientific analysis. To claim otherwise is just arguing for the sake of it. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Balderdash. The scientist is simply pointing out that Sheldrake's self-promotion is a means to scientific miseducation. Sagan was criticized for being somewhat self-promoting, but no one had a problem with his effect on scientific understanding. See the issue? jps (talk) 22:53, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That's not what the source says at all. And if that really was what it meant then that is what it should say, rather than asking the reader to divine that point from the term "self-promotion". But then if the article said that it would be as different from the source as many of the other critical points made in the article are. It seems a huge amount ion "interpretation", euphemistically speaking, is being done to sources in order to use them to support things they plainly do not say. This is highly problematic in a BLP. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You seem to have a tortured reading of what a scientist means when they criticize the media for paying attention to someone who is a pseudoscientist. jps (talk) 23:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

1RR restriction on this article

Due to continued edit warring after warnings all editors of the article currently at Rupert Sheldrake are restricted to making one revert in any twenty-four hour period on the article expiring at 02:00, 7 March 2014 (UTC). Violating this restriction may lead to a block or topic ban, as an arbitration enforcement action. Please note that editing reverting just outside the 24 hour period will be considered gaming the system and may result in the same sanction. This action is undertaken as Arbitration enforcement per the discretionary sanctions authorised by the Arbitration Committee in this decision and is logged here. You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the enforcement noticeboard. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

And to add a bit more, the discussions on this talk page (especially in the two sections above) are exactly what this article needs. Consensus and discussion driven conclusions. What the article doesn't need is people reverting each other: Alfonzo and Barney you almost saw yourselves blocked for a couple of days for edit warring. If each section needs to be closed and archived top and bottomed before an edit is made then I am willing to do that (or post it to WP:ANRFC linking to this section), but let's see if the seeming new found willingness and 1RR will work. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you looked very closely at the two sections above here you are praising. There isn't a lot of reasonable dialogue going on, really. What we have are a lot of truculent claims and not a lot of plain speaking. The denigrating of excellent sources solely on the basis of them being critical of Sheldrake is particularly problematic. jps (talk) 02:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Could you be more specific about that? Lou Sander (talk) 06:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Please do be more specific if you can point to specifics of where that is happening (give me a diff and an explanation) and we might be able to do something. The reason I praised it is because we actually have constructive discussion on changes to the page based on sources. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I responded to the points above where I feel that people are beginning to adopt the model of WP:Civil POV pushing. There are certain individuals insisting that WP:ITA be ignored below. This is certainly not constructive dialogue. jps (talk) 11:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that the constructive dialogue has stopped. Lou Sander (talk) 13:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Your perception that the "constructiveness" stopped when people other than Sheldrake supporters entered the discussion? hmmm. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Explanation of edits

Please talk about each issue in turn. [82]

"sometime"

Rupert Sheldrake was a biologist. He no longer works in biology. The normal way to describe this is that he was a "sometime" biologist. There are others. We must be clear. jps (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is no longer a materialist. He continues to promote and call for testing of his formative model of the organism. However, that's beside the point. We're not here to impose our views. We're here to report how Sheldrake is described in secondary sources, and those sources overwhelmingly describe him as a scientist or biologist. If you can find sources that describe him as a one-time or former biologist, then we can include that perspective in the article. Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It is certainly extremely controversial to claim that someone can be a scientist while not adhering to methodological materialism. Simply claiming someone is a scientist who denies this basic operational condition is not something that Wikipedia should do, IMHO. jps (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The idea we should ignore what reliable sources by the dozen say (biologist) on the basis of the potted philosophy of some editors here is ludicrous. There is a long debate to be had about the connection between materialism and science, but this is not the place. Suffice to say you are quite wrong on the issue in any event. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

None of the sources that claim he is a currently active biologist are reliable, and the reliable ones that claim he is a "biologist" make no mention of whether he is actively working in the field. jps (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Almost every sources offered for this is reliable. And the demand that these should now note that he is currently working in the field is just another ad hoc attempt to reject dozens of solid sources in favour of your own opinions. Sheldrake is a biologist. Nobody outside this talk page disputes it, and many, many sources outside this talk page state it plainly. Thus the article should state it plainly too. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I think "former" is preferable to "sometime", but his 35-paper pre-1987 academic career is not notable for WP:PROF and we should describe him in terms of why he's notable. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

He's notable as a biologist. He's notable as the biologist who wrote a book that caused a stink and led to him being called the most controversial scientist on earth. And given that and the fact that a huge numbers of reliable sources call him a biologist, Wikipedia should too - your attempts to right what you see as a great wrong notwithstanding. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

No, he's not really notable as a biologist. He's notable as a book writer. The book is related to his career in biology and we should figure out how to write this properly. "Former" biologist doesn't quite do it, though. He dropped out of biology to pursue his dream of what he thinks biology should be. I'm not sure how to succinctly describe that. jps (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

No, he's notable as a biologist. It was his biology book being reviewed by Nature that led directly to his notoriety. Not only that, dozens of reliable sources call him that, including one that is so reliable it is currently used in the introduction to support something it doesn't say (parapsychologist) instead of what it actually does say ("well-known biologist"). So, just move the citation back a few words in the opening sentence to where the intro says "biologist" and that should take care of both problems - the incorrect use of the source for parapsychologist becomes the required source for biologist.[83]Barleybannocks (talk) 22:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You really aren't paying attention, it seems. The other editors dispute that he is notable as a biologist, and his previous career as such needs to be characterized in light of his notoriety for writing a book 'relevant to biology, but isn't a "biology book". jps (talk) 23:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I know very well that other editors dispute it here. But this dispute extends nowhere beyond this talk page. There simply is no such dispute in the wider world. That's why dozens of reliable sources call him a biologist and no reliable sources explicitly dispute it. Here's one that not only says he's a biologist but says he's a "well-know biologist" (ie, notable as a biologist). [84] Have you a problem with Marc Bekoff, or Psychology Today? If so then you should know the source is already used in the lede (it's number three).Barleybannocks (talk) 23:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Go into your local university's biology department and ask them their opinion of Sheldrake's baloney. To claim that the dispute is confined to this talkpage is ludicrous, and perhaps indicative of an extremely blinkered understanding of what is mainstream. jps (talk) 23:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The issue here is whether he's a biologist. And the answer is a resounding yes from dozens of reliable sources such as highly respected academics and highly respected academic institutions and peer-reviewed journals and mainstream high-quality media. This is the point there is no dispute about anywhere outside this talk page. Thus I will not address your attempt to change this very specific question into yet another debate about the veracity of his work (there, there obviously is a debate). Barleybannocks (talk) 23:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't change the subject: we're trying to figure out how to appropriately describe Sheldrake. You claimed that Sheldrake is notable as a biologist uncontroversially. That's nonsense. Sheldrake is notable for writing something that essentially almost every biologist who looks at rejects. That is the sense in which we should describe him. Now how to do that is the issue. jps (talk) 23:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

We're looking for how to describe in the first line of a BLP. Thus the dozens of sources that say "biologist" should suffice. Especially given there is nothing external to this talk page which explicitly questions this well-known fact.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Clearly, if we wrote, "Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist" as the first linke that would not be enough. jps (talk) 23:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

parapsychologist

Rupert Sheldrake is a parapsychologist. We should be up front about that. jps (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

probably should be footnoted with one of the many sources that make that analysis. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

He is a biologist and parapsychologist. We should be upfront about both. Biologist is sourced to over 20 sources and I seem to remember sources were offered above for parapsychologist. Thus we should say both. At present though we have the ridiculous, and meaningless, suggestion that he is a "sometime English biologist". What does that mean - sometimes he's a French biologist, or a German one, or that he's only sometimes a biologist (ie, when he's not sleeping, or eating dinner). It seems to me, then, that in their desire to do down Sheldrake, some editors here are (unwittingly) making a mockery of Wikipedia with the introduction of farcical phrases. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Alternative suggestions that indicate that he was once this and now is that would be most welcome. jps (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

"Biologist" would appear to be the best choice. It is true, it is well-sourced (to dozens of sources), and it is completely in line with Wikipedia guidelines, policies and precedents. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't indicate that he is no longer doing research in biology. jps (talk) 20:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

There is firstly no such requirement, and secondly, even if there was, he meets it. He is still researching morphogenesis, for example. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I asked for a specific alternative. You don't have to respond if you don't agree to it. Also, Sheldrake hasn't published in a legitimate journal in decades, so he's obviously not doing meaningful work in biology any more. Credible journal publications are the currency of research. jps (talk) 22:45, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

scientific facts

The Law of Conservation of Energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion machines are scientific facts. I linked to the appropriate section so you can learn about that. jps (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have already learned quite a bit about it. In my experience, the common ways to speak of COE are as a "law" or "principle". There are dozens or hundreds of references to it as a law or principle, for example this one. It would be helpful if you could provide a reference or two defining COE as a "fact". I've tried, but I can't find any.

Until such references surface, one can look at the articles Laws of science and Scientific laws for information about these matters, as well as for specific references to COE. The article section on scientific fact is pretty non-specific, and doesn't mention COE. Maybe it's not such a good thing to link to, at least compared to the other two. Lou Sander (talk) 06:02, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The fact that the conservation of energy is a direct result from the observed time symmetry in nature makes the conservation of energy a fact if anything can be said to be a fact. [85] [86] [87] [88]

I'll leave you to find the thousands if not millions of other examples (these were just the few that took me seconds to locate). jps (talk) 11:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The fact that energy is conserved is due to the principle of conservation of energy. Lou Sander (talk) 13:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The fact that energy is conserved is due to physics conforming to reality. The principle, law, and fact of energy conservation is not an assumption: it is a feature of time symmetry. What you are saying/implying is as nonsensical as saying "the fact that 1+1=2 is due to the principle of 1+1=2". jps (talk) 14:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't really see a lot to be gained from a lengthy discussion of the exact nature of the law of conservation of energy. This is because the way the current introduction has it - "and advocates questioning the scientific facts of conservation of energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion devices" - is a gross misrepresentation of Sheldrake's overall view. That is, it is true in a sense, but it is only one tenth of the story and far from the most important tenth. If this is supposed to be a one line summary of Science Set Free then it is an awful attempt and should be changed to something more general that accurately covers the gist of what Sheldrake is saying. As it stands, it seems to me, it is just another example of Sheldrake's views being presented in the most unflattering light imaginable. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It may be that this particular tenth of Sheldrake's ideas are over-emphasized, but I see no alternatives being proposed that emphasize something else. If we're going to talk about his questioning/denial of the conservation of energy, we need to make it clear that he disagrees with a fact. jps (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

One alternative would be to say he advocates questioning what he calls ten dogmas of science - dogmas which he feels have been elevated above the status of provisional knowledge to the extent that some claim they are facts which must not be doubted/questioned. It is also worth noting that some of the criticisms of Sheldrake reject his claim that scientists take these dogmas as facts - thus the irony of this discussion. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

This is a bit head-spin-y, but there is an extreme consistency here that you seem to have missed. There is nothing, in principle, non-scientific about questioning basic facts. Question the facts of the conservation of energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion all you want: that's not a problem. These are, perhaps, unfortunate ideas to start out with, though, and the motivation for why Sheldrake thinks these are reasonable things to be questioning is rather absurdly lacking to the point of it being mistakable for farce. I think this is why some people here think we are criticizing Sheldrake by pointing out this simple point that he advocates questioning facts even though there is nothing in principle wrong with questioning facts.

More broadly, I think Sheldrake's poor choice of questions may be related to his documented illiteracy in matters of physics. I somehow doubt that he would have said something like, "I think we should question the existence of the cell" on the basis of reasonable skepticism of microscopes(!). It's that level of absurdity we're talking about here with this rhetoric -- nearly to the point of a kind of middle school solipsism and protestations of 14 year olds that "we can't really ever know anything!" Still, in principle, there is nothing that is not up for grabs in our investigations of the Universe, so the critique that Sheldrake thinks there is no flexibility is certainly misplaced. The larger point that is perhaps more visible, however, is that you cannot question facts without first understanding why the facts exist. In the case of Sheldrake's streams of consciousness about energy and perpetual motion, it's pretty clear he is out of his element. Questioning the *fact* of the conservation of energy is fine (and de rigeur!), but he is not doing this in a serious way at all. There is a difference, of course, between being open-minded and letting your brain fall out. jps (talk) 17:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's a place for your philosophical opinions in the article. Facts can't be amended; facts can be amended (but only if they're questioned seriously). If you have a non-contradictory non-your-own-opinion point about how we should improve the article I'd love to hear it.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

These aren't philosophical opinions at all. This is an evaluation of the sources you seem to have misunderstood. Try to keep up. jps (talk) 18:14, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

There is a difference between a fact, law, and principle. As someone who studied philosophy and history of science at Harvard University, Sheldrake will not only know the difference, but have used the term he felt was most appropriate. I can not think of any reason why anyone would want to force their own interpretation on what they THINK Sheldrake meant, or claim he said something different to what he actually wrote. There are enough book reviews on Sheldrake to use as secondary sources for use as interpretation and analysis. --Iantresman (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You claim that there is a difference, but don't show any sources that indicate that Sheldrake thinks there is a difference. And even if he does, he denies the fact of the conservation of energy, or, at the very least, advocates that it should be okay to question whether the conservation of energy is a fact. As I've said previously, I don't really care if we discuss the conservation of energy in the lede, but if we do, I'm not going to stand by while people construe it as a "principle" or a "law" simply because it makes it seem like it is easier to amend. Principles and laws can be amended. Facts cannot. jps (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Ironically Sheldrake would entirely approve of your statement. He brings up the issue on page 56 of Science Set Free, specifically disputing the "law of conservation of matter and energy" which "guarantees fundamental permanence in an ever-changing world." He argues that laws of nature are really habits that can be amended, and he applies this approach to conservation of energy among other laws. This is in stark contrast to the standard view, which holds that all laws of nature are immutable. Keep in mind that a fact, by definition, can be directly observed. Sheldrake isn't denying that the conservation of energy has been observed at various times in closed systems. He's denying the inference that conservation of energy must always be obeyed. What he disputes is the lawfulness of energy conservation, not the fact of this or that observation. (As an aside to jps, time symmetry follows from mathematical analysis, not observation. What we observe is time asymmetry, i.e. the forward movement of time. Only in the math is time allowed to flow backwards.) Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is not a physicist and so may not understand that questioning the conservation of energy is about as rigorous as questioning the idea that one thing added to another thing makes two things. It's that fundamental. He's questioning a basic fact. jps (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is clear that what he questions is the law inferred from observations of energy conservation, not the fact of those observations. We cannot list Sheldrake as a source for a claim he does not make. Incidentally, plenty of physicists, including heavyweights like Dirac, Wheeler and Feynman, have questioned the belief that laws of nature are eternal and immutable. In other words, what is factual today may not be factual tomorrow. See Lee Smolin's Time Reborn. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

There are no facts in science so secure that they cannot be amended given further observations. That, I believe, is philosophy of science 101.Barleybannocks (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That is a shell game. Not philosophy. Competent philosophers do not claim that we can never know anything because everything is up for grabs. jps (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is talking about doubting there are any facts. Some things are clear facts. But in discussions about philosophy of science, using words in a sloppy manner is not helpful, and there is no requirement for Wikipedia to engage in such sloppiness just so we can take a cheap shot at Sheldrake. That sentence needs to go, then, for a variety of reasons, not least because it is a hopeless summary of Sheldrake's actual point, as well as for the reasons highlighted just above. 21:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs)

Philosophy of science is irrelevant to the fact that energy is conserved. jps (talk) 23:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Re: Principles, laws and facts, you acknowledge and state a difference in your last sentence, so I don't know why your make it my "claim". It is not for editors to provide sources that support interpretation from editors. If you want to imply that Sheldrake claims that physical facts can be broken, then the onus is on you to provide a source that says. I have not seen one. Indeed, if you want to say anything about Sheldrake and what he says about the Conservation of Energy, then tell us your source, and we'll all look over it. For all we know, he is discussing it in the same way that radioactivity was discussed, when scientists thought that it violated the law of the Conservation of Energy. [89] --Iantresman (talk) 19:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake questions the conservation of energy. The conservation of energy is a fact. Therefore Sheldrake questions the fact of the conservation of energy. The end. jps (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but I think some people will be able to repeat their same old inane refuted arguments over and over again and over again and over again and over again and then some more. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:31, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

And that's exactly what jps is doing. Sheldrake questions the lawfulness of energy conservation, not the fact that it's been observed at various times. To attribute to Sheldrake a claim he does not make is to violate WP:Source. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I note this from the link to Isolated system from the definition in the Conservation of Energy page: "In the natural sciences an isolated system is a physical system without any external exchange... Truly isolated systems cannot exist in nature... and they are thus hypothetical concepts only" (my emphasis). Thus, when Sheldrake argues that "perpetual motion" devices may work, he need not even dispute law of the conservation of energy to do it, and need only point out that there is no such thing in reality as a closed system. Thus he may be saying that we should investigate so-called perpetual motion devices to see if they work rather than just dogmatically dismiss them by illicitly treating them as closed systems (which are impossible). This also raises issues about the status/use of a purported scientific fact that cannot apply to, or have been observed in, anything we have ever encountered, or will likely ever encounter, in the history/duration of human existence. Thus such devices being ruled out a priori is possibly, for Sheldrake, the dogmatic misapplication of a law for a hypothetical system to a real/different type of system. Best just test the devices, then, says Sheldrake, to see if they do in fact work.Barleybannocks (talk) 01:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

This is silly nonsense. The extent to which the conservation of energy is a law is a fact of nature. The end. Crocodile tears over the impossibilities of "isolated systems" are not going to help rehabilitate Sheldrake's (or his supporters') illiteracy in matters relating to physics. jps (talk) 18:16, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that there is a lot of silly nonsense in this section. It is here for all the world to see. Lou Sander (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, a quote I'm seeing is “The universe is now like a perpetual-motion machine, expanding because of dark energy, and creating more dark energy by expanding... Skeptics claim that all these devices are impossible and/or fraudulent, and some promoters of ‘free energy’ devices may indeed be fraudulent; but can we be sure that they all are?” This isn't immediately guaranteed to be a pseudo-scientific statement, even though we know full well what the reputation of the "field" is now. I mean, what would happen if we did design a device that creates dark energy? (I'm not sure if this has any relationship with the equally controversial idea of extracting zero-point energy) If we ignore the invisible dark energy in our calculations, could we see it give the appearance of producing free power? (I think I should take this one to the Science Refdesk, actually - meet you there) Wnt (talk) 18:47, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Dark energy is a form of vacuum energy (essentially a false vacuum), so the stuff is unextractable in essentially the same way zero-point energy is unextractable with the added problem that the energy density of dark energy is impossibly small on human scales. jps (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

ITA

WP:ITA forbids us from using in-text attribution to imply that Rupert Sheldrake is only considered to be problematic in his claims by two isolated critics. We can mention what each critic says but, per WP:SUMMARY, we MUST describe the general reaction to him which is that he is promoting pseudoscience and generally nonsense. jps (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:ITA is a guideline, it does not forbid anything. There is no problem including in the summary, that some scientists have called Sheldrake's work pseudoscience. --Iantresman (talk) 09:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:VALID is a policy which ITA clarifies the application. How is the encyclopedia improved by ignoring the guideline's application of policy in this article? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:48, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The Maddox source specifically says it's pseudoscience but that has been edited out. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I think it is still there in the section "A book for burning?" (in the quote). I added it, and I don't know any editors who would want it removed. --Iantresman (talk) 16:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Only a few people have charged him with pseudoscience, which is tantamount to heresy. That's very different from widespread rejection of his claims, which is already in the article. Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The people who have charged him with pseudoscience are those who are most able to judge, not being supporters of other known pseudoscientific endeavors, for example. jps (talk) 20:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Academic support

There seems to be this idea that Rupert Sheldrake has a small amount of "academic" support. I think what people are trying to say is that there are academics who have expressed support of Sheldrake. However, simply saying he has "academic support" can be confused for a claim that there is "academic work" in support of him, which there is not. The academics who have supported Sheldrake, almost to a name, have not done so in the usual places of academic discourse. There has been no Nature or Science article announcing the discovery of evidence for morphic fields. jps (talk) 12:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

There is a small amount of academic work in support of him - more by physicists than biologists, as one source explicitly says. David Bohm, eg, has done some work with Sheldrake, and Stuart Hameroff acknowledged in the letter published in the Huff Post that he has made use of Sheldrake's work in the cutting edge theory of consciousness he has developed with Roger Penrose. We also have an entire issue of the Journal for Consciousness Studies (a peer-reviewed scientific journal) devoted to a discussion of his theories. Thus the article should deal with the mainstream academic/scientific support/interest and should mention the fact in the introduction. As things stand we have the article making the ludicrously skewed (and false) point that support for Sheldrake's work has come only from new age devotees. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Have you got citations for these Barleybannocks (talk · contribs)? Genuinely interested to see this scientific support. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we were discussing them yesterday in this section.[90] I believe this is now the fifth time you have asked me, and the fifth time I have provided them.[91]Barleybannocks (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Barleybannocks (talk · contribs). Which papers specifically support Sheldrake and provide validatory tests of his hypotheses? Or it this just more pathological science published in a journal that publishes highly speculative ideas? Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, the point here is that we have secondary sources stating that there has been support, and we have peer-reviewed journal issues devoted to his work, as well as positive discussion of his theories in academic books, and support offered for his theories in various places by a number of scientists and philosophers. The issue of some academic support is now therefore exceptionally well-sourced and demonstrated, even if some still think there is one hoop or other that needs to be jumped through. Secondly, the issue is not about whether his theories have been validated - they have not. The issue is whether there is interest in them and support for them from within academia. The answer to the last question is a clear yes, and therefore given it is all sourced it should be in the article, your arguments against his work, and the sources, notwithstanding.Barleybannocks (talk) 16:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I haven't seen any peer-reviewed journals of high quality. We'd like to see top journals in biology, physics, psychology, etc. That, so far, has not been forthcoming. WP:REDFLAG is, essentially, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The extraordinary claim that Sheldrake's ideas are taken seriously should be accompanied by extraordinary evidence in the form high-quality journals (since his contention is essentially Nobel Prize worthy if it is true). Since there is no evidence that Sheldrake has received such notice, we are under an obligation not to mislead the reader into thinking that such has occurred. jps (talk) 19:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That Sheldrake enjoys some academic support is in no way an extraordinary claim. Not everyone is committed to the materialist interpretation of the world. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake only receives support from those sympathetic to pseudoscience. If he had scientific evidence for his ideas, he would be published in the top journals and talked about. He doesn't, so he's not, and he has no support in the relevant academic disciplines. jps (talk) 20:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

No WP:FRINGE-exception

Try as I might, I can find no WP:FRINGE exeception to this WMF board resolution of last month: [92]. I do find this: "The Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees urges the global Wikimedia community to uphold and strengthen our commitment to high-quality, accurate information, by:

Ensuring that all projects in all languages that describe or show living people have policies in place calling for special attention to the principles of neutrality and verifiability in those articles;

Taking human dignity and respect for personal privacy into account when adding or removing information and/or media, especially in articles or images of ephemeral or marginal interest;

Investigating new technical mechanisms to assess contributions , particularly when they affect living people, and to better enable readers to report problems;

Treating any person who has a complaint about how they are portrayed in our projects with patience, kindness, and respect, and encouraging others to do the same."

Yes, I see NPOV in there. We've argued ad nauseum about what NPOV means in relation to this article. But please notice the emphasis. It's mostly about "human dignity" and "[t]reating any person who has a complaint about how they are portrayed in our projects with patience, kindness, and respect, and encouraging others to do the same."

Food for thought
David in DC (talk) 04:08, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Try as I might, i do not see that the foundation has proclaimed that we should whitewash the article and ignore or misrepresent how the academic consensus sees the very non private Sheldrake and his work. If he is concerned about being represented as a promoter of pseudo scientific hokum then it is very simple for him to stop promoting pseudo scientific hokum. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

If Dr. Sheldrake would like to join the discussion on this page, I know I would extend to him patience, kindness, and respect. jps (talk) 04:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Some months ago, I suggested that we should include the phrase "******* ****** (redacted per request from an admin)" to adequately describe Shelly's ideas. I haven't changed my personal views, but I withdraw the suggestion now. Instead, as an olive branch to woolly thinkers, perhaps TRiPOD's suggestion, "pseudo scientific hokum" is a little more encyclopaedic and less inflammatory. I think the pandering of the article towards Sheldrake's world view in the last few days shames us all. Meh. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 08:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem including the phrase ""pseudo scientific hokum", if you have multiple reliable secondary sources that say this. I have no problem attributing this phrase, if you have good reliable source that includes it. Do you have either, or is this just WP:SYNTH? --Iantresman (talk) 09:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have removed a potentially WP:BLP violating phrase from my comment above, though it has not actually been demonstrated to me that I have violated that policy. I am happy to comply with policy. I do not wish to be the victim of arbitrary sanctions. I also note that it has been requested that good refs are supplied for assertions here on the Talk page. Accordingly, my refs for the phrase "pseudo scientific hokum" are all of Shelly's published works, broadly construed, since he stopped doing science. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 12:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem saying "psuedoscientific hokum" if we have sources saying this, and if it is attributed. The problem, though, is that we have over twenty top-quality sources for all types of scientists and commentators who say Sheldrake's work is scientific (even if wrong). Thus we cannot treat a small vocal band of critics speaking on behalf of themselves as the voice of the scientific community at large, while ignoring all the opposite view from similar individuals - as some here wish to do. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

We have plenty of sources saying this. They might not use the word "hokum", but still, let's stop pretending otherwise. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is pretending you have no sources. But a number of the sources offered simply did not say it, and some actually said the opposite (Sue Blackmore, eg). Thus while the accusation of psuedoscience should clearly be in the article, we shouldn't attribute it to people who never said, nor anything like it. We should be clear that many disagree and the exact status of Sheldrake's work, re this question, is a matter of debate. Numerous sources make this very point, and the commissioned articles in the Guardian (and their commissioning) demonstrate it. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - please stop trying to interpret sources as saying things that they don't say. Again, your idea of a distinction between "terribly bad science" and "pseudoscience" is absolute nonsense, and it's clearly intended to hammer a wedge into the multitude of sources that basically say the same thing. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

We have been over this. Blackmore calls him a parapsychologist. "He is scientific - to a point." She then goes on to say his science is wrong and that he refuses to acknowledge lack of evidence for his proposal. To take from Blackmore only the first three words is completely unacceptable misuse and misreading her work. And to do so repeatedly is WP:TE-- -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. This is an informal fallacy. See "You're either with us, or against us" --Iantresman (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not. The sources offered in many case don't say what one would expect them to given their use in the article, while others, eg, Blackmore, says the opposite. She says, for example, "Sheldrake is scientific - at least in many respects" and never uses the word pseudoiscience, or anything like it, and yet this is used as a source for pseudoscience. There is interpretation going on as regards this source, then, but not by me. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:40, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You're both very persistent at it, even when you're told you're wrong. That some sources do not mention the word pseudoscience, usually by describing characteristics of pseudoscience while not mentioning the word, cannot be reasonably interpreted to say that they endorse Sheldrake's work as scientific. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I guess the problem is, eg, when someone says "Sheldrake is scientific - at least in many respects", it is difficult to buy your arguments that they really meant pseudoscientific, and that that's what we should take from their article. Presumably Blackmore was free to write what she wanted and did so, and what she wrote was "scientific" albeit with some qualification. Thus it takes an enormous amount of "interpretation", euphemistically speaking, to yield the claim you want. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe because you have refused to read beyond those 8 words to see what she says in the rest of the article. And what she describes is exactly pseudo science - scientific overlay masking parapsychology and utter nonsense. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

@Barney . It is not for you, or any other editor, to tell us that we are wrong. You are at liberty to disagree. Just because someone describes the characteristics of a duck, doesn't make something a duck. This is a basic induction fallacy and WP:DUCK "The duck test does not apply to article content". --Iantresman (talk) 17:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

@RPoD I have read the rest of the article. At no point does she say Sheldrake's work is peudoscience. Her main criticism is that Sheldrake still believes things which she changed her mind about many years ago. But that in no way equates to the charge that all, or even any, of his work is pseudoscience. Blackmore should therefore be removed from the list of people who have said his work is PS unless another source can be found. @Iantresman, she doesn't even really list any main duck characteristics either as far as I can see. She just thinks he should have changed his mind, but since he knows his own experiments far better than she does he is entitled to argue his corner. This kind of thing is completely normal in science even in cases where some have gone to the grave hanging on to things that evidence rendered unlikely at best many years prior, and some have even been thereafter vindicated. All normal scientific stuff. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Her main point is that Sheldrake appeals to peoples desire to for faith in unproven claims dressed up in science rather than actual facts. That is NOT science - that is pseudoscience. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

A correction TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom - Susan Blackmore does not say that his science is wrong, she says his theory of MR is wrong. She clearly clarifies this at the top of the article. And that is her opinion, and it's written in an opinion article, not a scientific journal. She claims Sheldrake does not review the evidence, but Sheldrake makes the same claim for her. I don't feel comfortable about the article taking sides in an argument between two colleagues. And yes they are colleagues they both served as chair for Perrot Warrick. A theory might be wrong, but that does not make the theory, or the scientist who proposes it, pseudoscience. Going through the sources provided here, I've only seen two quotes so far that directly say it's pseudoscience. I might be missing one or two, but Is the status of this whole article resting on those two quotes? That seems like somewhat of a stretch. If Sheldrake is a pseudoscientist because of his work in parapsychology, then Blackmore is also a pseudoscientist. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 18:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is a pseudoscientist because of the specific content and of his claims not because of the subject matter. jps (talk) 19:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not asking what an editor believes to be true, I am asking about the sources that support that belief. I'm not seeing anything special about the sources specifically mentioned that support the belief that Sheldrake performs pseudoscience. I found two so far. I'll ask the question again, is the entire status of this article resting on those sources? To an outsider, it looks like this article is resting on the assumptions of editors more than the sources provided. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You're assessment is correct. Some editors here have a very different view from the sources and want to include only those which support them and ignore the others altogether. Sheldrake's work has been called pseudoscience by a few people (including some scientists) but his work has been characterised as science by many more people (including many more scientists). Barleybannocks (talk) 20:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The list of "scientists" who support Rupert Sheldrake is full of alternative medicine practitioners, known pseudoscience apologists, and outright cranks. These are not reliable demarcators at all. In contrast, the sources who have plainly and simply dismissed the pseudoscience of Sheldrake are reliable, accomplished, and well-known scientists. This isn't a "he-said/she-said" game. We rightfully exclude the beliefs of crackpots as WP:UNDUE in spite of the nonsense credentialism of Sheldrake and his supporters on this page. jps (talk) 20:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Your spurious attack on many top-quality scientists is no reason to reject anything, let alone three sound sources which explicitly state he has received scientific support. It is not Wikipedia's job to right what you regard as a great societal wrong. These people are scientists, many are listed in Wikipedia as scientists, and for many of them, your previous comment, and similar ones above by others, will be the only time their status as scientists has ever been questioned. It's clear you don't like these facts, but facts they are. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The "attack" is simply an evaluation that your favorite sources are unreliable. Just because a scientist says you are a scientist doesn't make you a scientist especially not when your reputation is to swoon over pseudoscience. jps (talk) 22:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The sources are perfectly reliable. David F Haight [93], for example, writing in an academic a book published by the University Press of America. What is you problem with him and the publisher? Barleybannocks (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The publisher? That's not who is the source. The source is the author and who the hell is David F. Haight? Why should we believe him? jps (talk) 23:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

He's a highly respected academic (that's who he is), and he's writing in an academic book. That's the kind of thing Wikipedia rules regards as a reliable source. Thus Wikipedia believes him. We should also believe him because two other reliable sources say the same thing and the evidence that what they say is true has been presented numerous times on the talk page. For example, The Journal of Consciousness Studies, a peer-reviewed scientific journal, devoting an entire issue to Sheldrake's scientific work, etc, etc.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

He is absolutely not a highly respected academic. He's a philosophy professor who is trying unsuccessfully to dabble in mathematics and science and promoting pseudoscience along the way. The Journal of Consciousness Studies is a pseudoscience magnet! It's laughable that you'd trumpet that as a standard of reliability. jps (talk) 23:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Have you sources for these defamatory attacks on Haight or is it all your own work? Likewise the appraisal of the JoCS Journal_of_Consciousness_Studies Barleybannocks (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Gotcha, Barleybannocks! This isn't a discussion of Haight or of the Journal. This is a discussion of Sheldrake. That you chose poor sources doesn't need to be sourced. We can simply identify that these are poor sources because the Journal in question is poorly considered in the academic community and Haight is simply not a well-known academic who has, additionally, been documented to have supported pseudoscience. Since we aren't writing articles about either of those two subjects, your Russian-nesting doll demand for more sources is just plainly tactics and willful ignorance of the reality that people who believe in the magic of consciousness are considered pseudoscientific yammerers by the wider mainstream community. Now, we can get back to figuring out how to describe this calmly and fairly or we can continue the WP:GAMEs. I bet I know which one you're in favor of. jps (talk) 23:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You got nothing, let alone me. You made this into a discussion of Haight by asking why we should believe him. My answer was that he is a highly respected academic (I linked to his university page, which speaks of him in a very respectful tone). Your response was to attack a man you hadn't even heard of ten minutes ago. Thus, I am asking if there is any external source for the defamatory remarks you make about him, or whether they issue only from you, here, now.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Figure it out, you can stamp your feet in protest that Haight is awesome, but he's simply not a very good source for what you're trying to do. You can ask about sourcing on the talkpage for David F. Haight. jps (talk) 23:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if Haight is awesome - haven't met the man. What I do know is that he is exactly the type of source, writing in exactly the type of source, Wikipedia requires, and that to reject him as a source we need a lot more than some apparently unfounded defamatory remarks thought up by an editor here in the last half hour. If you have sources suggesting Haight is untrustworthy for come reason then please cite them, if not, then just inventing more defamatory stuff to go along with the first batch is pointless.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

How it works is you suggested a source. I pointed out problems (obscurity of the author, problematic promotionalism, lack of expertise). You must provide us with some reason that we should use an obscure professor from a minor institution who doesn't have any degrees in scientific fields; the onus is on you to make your case. It's not my responsibility to provide you with sources proving unreliability. That's the silly Russian-nesting dolls sourcing. Are you going to question the sources I dig up about Haight? No... this is essentially WP:CHEESE at this point. Get better sources is the name of the game. Haight's a bad source. jps (talk) 16:15, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

No, I suggested three sources + around 10 sources that demonstrated the truth of those sources, and you invented some defamatory stuff about one person/source you've never heard of (with no source, and no basis in fact for your invention), and then demanded we reject the sources because you shouted some invented bad stuff often and loudly. Let's at least tell it how it is.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:40, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

You were the one who (problematically) chose Haight as your ace in the hole and then complained when I impeached the source. jps (talk) 18:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Parapsychology Source is Conflicting

In the lead section Sheldrake is described as a parapsychologist with two sources only. One source is a review of a lecture and does not claim Sheldrake is a parapsychologist, but just that he is now researching parapsychology, and the other source states specifically that Sheldrake is a well known biologist. If these are the only sources provided, they are vague and contradictory and should be either removed with proper ones supporting or the title of parapsychologist should be removed, as it's conflicting with primary and secondary sources. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

What do you think Sheldrake is if not a parapsychologist? jps (talk) 19:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake's belief in the possibility of telepathy follows directly from his theory of ontogeny. The man is a biologist, pure and simple, and that's how he's generally identified in secondary sources. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:14, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That's not how the study of biology works. jps (talk) 20:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

biologists do not study telepathy. parapsychologists study telepathy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Not according to every source I could find, where there is no such academic position as "parapsychologist". At the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at Edinburgh University, there are no parapsychologists. Almost all the main staff are qualified psychologists. None of them identify as a "parapsychologist". The European Journal of Parapsychology, which was affiliated with the University of Derby, also included no staff that identified as a "parapsychologist". In related fields, such as consciousness research, the PEAR at Princeton University staff included aerospace scientists, psychologists, electrical engineers, and theoretical physicists. Again, not one identified as a "parapsychologist". The Division of Perceptual Studies at the U. Viginia also has staff qualified as psychologists, psychiatrists, and medical doctors, and no "parapsychologist". There also appears to be parapsychology research in at least a dozen universities in at least 6 countries, at which I found one "psychophysicist" in Hungary. I could find no parapsychologists, though many academic qualified across the spectrum, who do research in parapsychology. --Iantresman (talk) 21:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

"Parapsychology researcher" would be acceptable. jps (talk) 16:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe Sheldrake isn't or is a parapsychologist, jps (talk), but I do believe the two sources that are being used to justify a Wikipedia article do not make that claim and are improperly sourced. I do believe that Sheldrake believes himself to be a biologist, as well as a number of secondary sources. It seems like an extraordinary leap and extraordinary claim to contradict a primary and secondary source with something as flimsy as those two references. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake cannot be used as a source for promotional claims about himself. So you can just factor those out of your calculations for what we should call him. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, but we do begin by looking at a primary source and see if it's supported by secondary sources, and if so, use the secondary sources. The primary source is a guide, the secondary source is a reference. Since secondary sources support a primary source - it would appear we would need an extraordinary argument to up seat that. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 22:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It's interesting that one of the sources [94] used for "parapsychologist" at no point refers to Sheldrake as a parapsychologist and instead refers to him as a "biologist", and yet it is used as a source for something it doesn't say and is not allowed to be used as a source for something it actually does say! Barleybannocks (talk) 22:40, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The actual term of art is up for grabs. Obviously, his stuff is categorically parapsychology. Whether that makes him a parapsychologist or not is semantics. jps (talk) 16:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

And since it's semantics, it's confusing and contradicts primary and secondary sources which are not confusing at all. This matter is easily fixed - 'Rupert Sheldrake is an x, y, and z - notable for his concept of morphic resonance and his research into telepathy in animals.' 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:14, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

The resolution described contributes nothing here: we should never call something scientific just to be nice. The issue here concerns contributors trying to reach a neutral draft despite strong differences in their own perspective. Any impermissible nastiness is only a side effect of the difficulties in doing so. I should emphasize that loaded terms like pseudoscience and parapsychologist need to be used only if well sourced, since they typically can only be determined post hoc. For example, it was long known that elephants could communicate with one another somehow over a distance of miles; then finally a researcher got involved who could hear the infrasound. If morphic resonance did turn out to be some kind of real thing, then the animal telepathy would be like the elephant telepathy. Otherwise, if it is not a real thing, people will say pseudoscience with confidence. I haven't done the reading to discuss the idea productively in relation to Sheldrake's publications, but some of the questions I've asked at the recently featured Talk:AdS/CFT correspondence may be related. Wnt (talk) 19:35, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

A fair point Wnt (talk). I believe the sources show, Rupert Sheldrake is researching 'claims' of unusual abilities in animals, such as homing pigeons or dogs that know when their owners are coming home. Investigating animal behaviors, even peculiar ones, would appear to be what biologists would do. I may be mistaken, I personally am not familiar too much with Sheldrake's work with animals, but his research is meant to show that the phenomenon of 'dogs knowing when their owners are coming home' is a bona fide phenomenon, not a claim that proves 'telepathy exists' or a claim that supernatural forces are at work. His theory may, or may not account for this phenomenon I have no idea, but to refer to him as a parapsychologist appears, on this page, as a way to discredit the man and present him as somewhat flakey. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

And one of the sources (Bekoff) used to support "parapsychologist" at no point mentions "parapsychology", or "parapsychologist", and instead call him a "well known biologist". As I understand the arguments of those who want to use this source for "parapsychologist": Bekoff (a biologist) isn't well enough qualified to be believed when he calls him a biologist, but his article can be used to support "parapsychologist" because that's what some here want to say (Bekoff not saying it, and saying "biologist" instead, being of no consequence).Barleybannocks (talk) 19:59, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Psychedelics

I think this explains a lot [95] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have always had a sneaking suspicion that this may be part of the game. There are a number of academics who are interested in psychedelics who support similar sorts of "spiritualist" ideas. Sheldrake never was at the Esalen_Institute, but many of his supporters were and his ideas strike me as being very similar to those that are associated with that. On the physics end, the Fundamental Fysiks Group has a number of psychedelic promoters who adopt extremely similar ideas to those of Sheldrake. Whether he is simply feeding off of their support or is actively engaged with their idea of taking LSD before you work on research is hard for me to say. I'd like to see more sources on this. jps (talk) 13:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Wait, did I say that Sheldrake was never at Esalen? That's not right: [96], [97], [98]. Hmm... the plot thickens. jps (talk) 13:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The Indian Ashram of Bede Griffiths publicly seem to prohibit the use of drugs (including Cigarettes and Alcohol) [99] Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Rules posted in the 2010's do not necessarily reflect the rules and norms in the 70s. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I think we should include details of Sheldrake's use/advocacy/interest in psychedelics, as long as accurate sources can be found. What we should avoid, however, is moralising on this point and/or trying to score rhetorical points by insinuation. Barleybannocks (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

the above is Sheldrake himself speaking, in a dialogue with a friend published by a major publishing house. i dont think you can get any more "accurate" than that. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

So what would you like to include in the article? At one point Sheldrake lived somewhere which prohibited the use of alcohol/tobacco. To what end?Barleybannocks (talk) 15:28, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

of course not. but something along the lines of Sheldrake believes the use of psychedelic drugs "can reveal a world of consciousness and interconnection" which he says he has experienced. (http://books.google.com/books?id=uCF5SBj0EmUC&pg=PA75&dq=Rupert+psychedelics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_xmjUtrOLsSEyAHJ74DwAg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=snippet&q=%22Rupert%20%20I%20think%20that%20psychedelics%22&f=false) Voilà ! the essence of morphic fields.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with the Sheldrake quote, but your interpretation of its relevance is highly problematic. That is, we need to very careful here because, as I am sure you are aware, there is no mainstream view on psychedelic insights because with the exception of a only a few studies in recent years (which would be quite supportive of Sheldrake actually - eg, Rick Strassman, Roland Griffiths, and some work done in the 50s and 60s) psychedelic effects on consciousness have been completely off the scientific agenda for the last 50 years for legal reasons. Thus we should be very careful to avoid "war on drugs" moralising especially if it represented as some kind of informed scientific opinion.Barleybannocks (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

oops this was supposed to be in the section above

We have been over this. Blackmore calls him a parapsychologist. "He is scientific - to a point." She then goes on to say his science is wrong and that he refuses to acknowledge lack of evidence for his proposal. To take from Blackmore only the first three words is completely unacceptable misuse and misreading her work. And to do so repeatedly is WP:TE-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC) Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) has repeatedly been corrected on this issue. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC) Not sure what Blackmore has to do with this issue. I know she has said that drug taking (cannabis) has been very beneficial to her thinking, but I don't think she has made this point in connection with Sheldrake, and/or his use of drugs, and/or psychedelics in general.Barleybannocks (talk) 16:36, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Personally I feel VERY uncomfortable if this is used to frame the article one way or another. If Shelrake has published something on psychedelics or their usage, that's fair game. But to make an assumption that somehow 'This explains a lot' - is clear interpretation and personal research. If it does explain a lot, then it must also explain a lot about the success of the Apple Computer, or the discovery of the DNA molecule, or the success of Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band. Please, no interpretations here. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 18:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that we will need good sources on this if it is to be included. Let's see what people come up with. jps (talk) 19:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

PCR was also "discovered" by its inventor on LSD. People seem to forget that in the late 1950s and into the early 1970s, professionals from many different disciplines experimented with psychedelics in an attempt to gain insight into their work. This was legal into the mid 1960s. Furthermore, the connection between the dream state and scientific discovery is well established in the history of science literature, so this is nothing new or shocking. Legal creativity research in the late 1960s made use of psychedelics and this is covered in detail by many reliable sources. I'm not entirely sure what the consensus of the research results were, but I recall someone saying something along the lines of the drugs merely eliciting what the subjects already had in mind and allowing them to bring it to the surface. Huxley and others were opposed to Leary for this reason–they believed that only the most intelligent and accomplished could benefit from it, and it would be wasted on the unwashed masses. Viriditas (talk) 08:15, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

As this 2012 article shows, managed use of psychedelics may have value:Psychedelic Drug May Have a Role in Psychotherapy This does not appear to be far out of line from Trpod's [100] reference.

I do hope you all include in the article that he was a druggie so that there will be no remaining doubt to the public that Wikipedia editors are doing all they can to smear Sheldrake's name. Tom Butler (talk) 16:44, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

because repeating Sheldrakes self admission of the relevance of Psychedelics to his concepts is somehow an attack? get fucking real. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

fixed that for you. let's be civil. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 18:39, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

There are phenomena such as contact high and shared hallucination that are very much real, and quite interesting, so anything you can extract to help explain Rupert's ideas is worthwhile. (myself, I got a "restricted page" following that link - I gotta go spend an hour and write a proxy to put someplace, this is ridiculous) Wnt (talk) 19:45, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Grammar Error?

Part of the article states:

"Sheldrake debated biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy..."

It should read:

"Sheldrake debated with the biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy..."

or

"Sheldrake debated with biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy...

One debates a subject, not a person. One debates "with" or "against" a person. Baby English even to a Swede!

Kind regards 213.66.81.80 (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

debate 11) to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/re+debate 89.110.2.152 (talk) 02:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Explanation of edits 2

The RfC proposal has been archived; some text below has been lifted from it.

There are a significant number of sources that support intelligent design, some written by professors from respected institutions. Why doesn't the Evolution article mention that evolution has a rival called intelligent design that "enjoys a small handful of academic support"? According to WP:NPOV, shouldn't this significant minority viewpoint be expressed in the article? No, because ArbCom has decided that Wikipedia aims to be a serious encyclopedia with a scientific focus.

• Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Wikipedia aspires to be such a respected work.
• Scientific focus: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and its content on scientific and quasi-scientific topics will primarily reflect current mainstream scientific consensus.

Intelligent design does have significance as a social phenomenon (it is mentioned in the Social and cultural responses section of the Evolution article), but it has no scientific significance.

It seems to me that the present conflicts with the Sheldrake article are solved by asking: What is the view of mainstream science? Is it the view of mainstream science that "morphic resonance" has some "academic support"? This is not the case. Is it the view of mainstream science that telepathy, "morphic fields", and the "sense of being stared at" are part of the field of biology? This is not the case either.

Playing source-counting games is poor practice. The article on Evolution was not informed by counting the number of reliable sources, in scorecard fashion, that either support or deny evolution. But even if we play these counting games, the claim that more sources call Sheldrake a biologist is a questionable one. By a ratio of 3 to 1, the number of Google Scholar hits of "Rupert Sheldrake" that mention neither "biologist" nor "biochemist" outnumber the hits that mention either "biologist" or "biochemist".[101][102] (The ratio is much higher for regular Google web hits, though these results are not as interesting.) Remember that this is only about what Sheldrake is presently called in the first sentence of the article. No effort has been or will be made to erase Sheldrake's position as a Cambridge biochemist until 1973, as described in the second sentence of the article.

Morphic resonance falls under

• Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.

The article should therefore contain this information and be so categorized.

Using in-text attribution of quotes from specific scientists to suggest that an idea is less marginal than it actually is in the scientific community runs afoul of WP:PSCI and WP:GEVAL, which are part of WP:NPOV.

Repeated violations of the aforementioned ArbCom decisions -- which seems to have happened already -- should be taken up with Arbitration Enforcement (WP:AE). vzaak 05:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Since the old citations are now gone, I should point out sources such as

• Nature -- "former biochemist and plant physiologist at the University of Cambridge who has taken up parapsychology"[103]
• Nature -- "parapsychologist"[104]
• New Scientist -- "biochemist-turned-parapsychologist"[105]
• New Republic -- "pseudoscientist"[106]

If the counting game is employed to argue that Sheldrake should be called a biologist in the first sentence instead of the second sentence, then I will point to the counting method above which favors the opposite. If we rightfully abandon the counting game and look to ArbCom principles, then we find the strongest and most prestigious sources representing mainstream science, in which case Nature wins. (Remember, again, that he's called a biologist in the second sentence.) vzaak 07:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You've clearly done the work to cite him as a parapsychologist according to sources, though a step of indirection analogous to the sources ("has taken up parapsychology") may still be appropriate. That does not, however, refute him as a biologist assuming there are some sources lying around for that. Just as a person can be a Muslim and a physicist, someone can be a parapsychologist and a biologist; there is (or should be) no loyalty test. Wnt (talk) 07:44, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Again with the circular discussion, so I'll put in the requisite comment. If he is a scientist, show us his scientific work. The publications, the criticism (meant in its classic sense) the collaborations, the citations, the discussions, the follow-up work, the other scientists in the field, the awards, the acclaim of peers etc. etc. I point you to the huge gaping and above all - empty - vacuum. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 09:06, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I am not aware of any peer reviewed journal articles, despite Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) noble but ultimately baseless attempt to pretend that pseudojournals are peer reviewed. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Please try to gain consensus for the edits. The arguments above are absurd. We have multiple reliable sources for each of the claims which, in addition, are clearly true. Removing this well sourced biographical information to do down Sheldrake is not appropriate for a BLP. If you have problems with the sources, then please explain what they are here. Barleybannocks (talk) 10:24, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

The problems with your arguments. The first argument above above intelligent design and how it should feature in the evolution article is of no consequence here, because to continue the analogy, this is the article about ID and not evolution. Therefore it is wholly appropriate to note that ID has academic support. That is, it would be inappropriate to cite Sheldrake's academic support in the article on morphogenesis, but absolutely appropriate here. With regard to counting sources to see how many times he's called a biologist as opposed to not being called a biologist, so what? Unless Sheldrake changed his name to Rupert Sheldrake Biologist, it would be extraordinary for this word to appear every time his name does. I note you apply no such counting rule with regards to any of the other things you want to call Sheldrake and so this seems like a simple ad hoc criterion dreamed up to justify the exclusion of dozens of very reliable sources in favour of the opinions of editors here. Barleybannocks (talk) 10:34, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

With regard to the repeated request for the evidence that Sheldrake's work has had some scientific impact in virtue of further work by other scientists, I will once again, eg, cite the fact that the peer-reviewed Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted an entire issue to the work of Sheldrake. This is a plain fact. And it, in addition to the other sources cited above about the interest in his work by, eg, David Bohm, and Stuart Hameroff, means the other sources that talk of a small degree of academic support are not only good enough to be included in virtue of being reliable sources making a claim, but also because the claim they make is obviously true. Barleybannocks (talk) 11:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted an entire issue to the work of Sheldrake in which it specifically DROPPED any formal peer review. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Even if what you say is true (source/evidence?), it still shows Sheldrake's work having generated interest within the academic community which is what the journal having done that was evidence for. There are also the numerous academic books, and the supporting articles/letters/reviews etc, all cited above, which demonstrates the truth of the claim that the three supplied sources state plainly: that Sheldrake's work has garnered a small amount of support from within academia (rather than simply being confined to new-age devotees as the article currently misleads the reader).Barleybannocks (talk) 14:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

[[107]] / beginning on page 8 "[http://www.imprint.co.uk/Editorial12_6.pdf Given the situation described in the previous few pages, it was clear to me before I even read Rupert Sheldrake’s submission that if I submitted it to peer review under the usual conditions, it would be rejected. " ..."It was somewhat like the situation facing the editors some years ago over submissions to the parapsychology special issue of JCS. Had we held them to the same standards that apply in mainstream science, they would all have been rejected. Since the object of the exercise was to expose readers equally to parapsychologists’ and sceptics’ views of the field, and let them judge the merits of each side, such a result would have been self-defeating. So we agreed, on that one occasion, to allow certain assumptions and claims to stand that most in the scientific community would not accept, with the proviso that the parapsychologists were representing ‘the mainstream views of their community reasonably well’. Critiques by other parapsychologists served as an appropriate form of quality control, in the circumstances. In the present case I could not apply quite the same solution, because Rupert Sheldrake is a one-off and represents only himself. So the only alternative to outright rejection was to publish his work with open peer commentary to provide balance and criticism." The issue dropped its standard peer review because his work had not the slightest chance of passing through. AND identifies the ideas as even less accepted than general parapsychology, where they were able to put together a set of reviewers from the "mainstream of parapscychology" - Sheldrakes work does not have even that type of following. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)