Talk:Black Sabbath

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Good articleBlack Sabbath has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 20, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 2, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
April 26, 2009Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article

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Legacy

In 2014, MetalSucks polled more than a hundred of metal’s most revered musicians, critics, journalists, artists, publicists, and industry insiders to find out which 25 bands represent the very BEST in the history of metal and Black Sabbath finished at #1.

See http://www.metalsucks.net/2014/11/14/25-best-metal-bands-time-real-1-black-sabbath/


Heaven & Hell

NO MERGE:

There is no consensus to merge. While this discussion does not display much in the way of significant rationales for opposing the merge, the linked discussion does, so both discussions are worth reading in full. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:29, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I know that a discussion on merging Black Sabbath and Heaven & Hell has already been done but that discussion failed to acknowledge Tony Iommi's own thoughts on the matter.[1]

It really is Black Sabbath, whatever we do... so everyone knows what they're getting [and] so people won't expect to hear 'Iron Man' and all those songs. We've done them for so many years, it's nice to do just all the stuff we did with Ronnie again.

Charles Essie (talk) 16:13, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong opppose. These are two different bands despite having the same members and using the name of the album they recorded, while being in Black Sabbath. They distinct themselves for a reason and there is no room for personal interpretations. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:04, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This isn't an interpretation. Tony Iommi said Heaven & Hell is Black Sabbath (per above quote). Charles Essie (talk) 21:34, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I can, but OK, Iommi can obviously think, say, feel or reflect about anything Sabbath, but the fact remains the industry, fans and the world sees them as two bands, and so do I. Iommi's remarks can be mentioned somewhere appropriate, but merging and deleting Heaven & Hell, No. - Mlpearc (open channel) 14:09, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2017

Pleas add: Category:English doom metal musical groups To the bottom of the page source. It will just include Black Sabbath in a larger list of English Doom metal groups.

Thank you 2.24.130.106 (talk) 20:45, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The infobox lists "heavy metal" and not "doom metal". I don't believe this has a consensus for addition. Izno (talk) 20:50, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please change the introduction paragraph to heavy metal band. They are possibly the most famous heavy metal band. Fipler Metalus (talk) 15:34, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Only 3, 7 and 8 work. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2018

UPDATE LINK FOR Reference #172 TO https://rockoverdose.gr/tony-martin-ex-black-sabbath-rockoverdoseif-iommi-wants-something-together/ Parazapant (talk) 14:28, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Updated reference to go to correct URL. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:10, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rock or Heavy Metal?

Ok, so Obviously they are a rock band; but why can't we be more specific? I feel like in the Header it should refer to them as a Heavy metal band, since they helped popularize the genre and all of their albums are generally considered Heavy metal. What do you guys think? Howpper (talk) 13:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You saw the hidden notes, yes? So I'm guessing that any previous discussion(s) can be found in the Talk page archive somwehere? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:35, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Martinevans123: from what I read, it didn't appear that a consensus was ever reached (I may be wrong). The majority of sources (by far) refer to them as a Heavy Metal Band, and the infobox only lists Heavy Metal. I honestly think it should be in the header. Howpper (talk) 15:58, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The "Musical Style" section already says: "Black Sabbath were a heavy metal band, whose music has also been described as psychedelic rock and acid rock". I see also that Heavy metal music, in it's lead section, says this: "In 1968, three of the genre's most famous pioneers, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple were founded." with support from Tom Larson's 2004 History of Rock and Roll. We might want to copy that over here? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I think about it, I see why it says rock. It also says they are pioneers of heavy metal in the header; it would be redundant to say it twice. Do you think it should say Hard rock instead of Rock? Howpper (talk) 12:17, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No strong views either way. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:21, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think it would be fine if I changed the header from Rock to Hard rock? Howpper (talk) 23:19, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is already stated in the "Musical style" section that "...whose music has also been described as psychedelic rock and acid rock". Hard rock is not mentioned anywhere and they were not a hard rock band so rock is used instead as it keeps the genre neutral, because Black Sabbath were also described as having played more genres, which did not exist at the time. – Sabbatino (talk) 04:51, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, it will stay the same. Howpper (talk) 06:07, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To be more specific in the opening genre should be heavy metal and in the infobox there should be heavy metal and doom metal since making a lot of doom metal songs, they technically made the first stoner metal album with Master Of Reality (1971). Obviously making the first heavy metal album with Black Sabbath (1970) should mean a huge indicator that Black Sabbath is heavy metal. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 22:31, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You could be right, But could provide a WP:RS for Doom metal? I'll remove it until you find one. Did you see the infobox hidden note there which says: "Do NOT change or add to genres without reaching consensus on the talk page first"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:39, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My source should be Encyclopedia Metallum, wich is a website souly dedicated to heavy metal. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 22:43, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah right, souly. You'd need to provide a full source for that. If there are any doubts about the reliability of that source, you might have to check at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:54, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Souly was a typo. And I also have as another source Loudwire and BangerTV. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 23:32, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is that another one, or another two? By all means copy all sources here so we can see them. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:51, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please be respectful. All the sources I’ve found that say Black Sabbth is doom metal are Loudwire, BangerTV, Encyclopedia Metallum, Ranker, and Metal Storm. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 10:51, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Black Sabbath* Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 10:51, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see. And that's great. I'm not being disrespectful. It's just policy. Please could you copy the links for "All the sources I’ve found" here, before they are added to the article? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:55, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Matt Wanat; Leonard Engel (15 May 2016). Breaking Down Breaking Bad: Critical Perspectives. University of New Mexico Press. pp. 122–. ISBN 978-0-8263-5684-0. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |trans_title=, |laydate=, |laysummary=, and |authormask= (help)--Moxy (talk) 11:42, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    This source says Sabbath influenced Doom Metal, not that they were themselves classified as doom metal. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:57, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Good to see someone read the source.......so Sabbath influenced Doom Metal is the most we should say.--Moxy (talk) 23:52, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't be loading up the infobox with a bunch of subgenres regardless—just choose one that covers it all (in this case, heavy metal), and leave the subgenres to the body. The infobox field should describe the band as a whole, not every subgenre the band touched on somewhere (just imagine what would happen to the Beatles' infobox!). Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:35, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, how many links are there? Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 14:10, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is "all the sources you've found", yes? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:09, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The links to the sources I’ve found: Loudwire, Banger Films, Encyclopedia Metallum, Ranker and Metal Storm. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The link to Metal Storm is wrong, it’s not the Australian company, it is the webzine called Metal Storm. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 21:51, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. For future reference, you'd need to provide actual substantive links, not just links to Wikipedia articles. But in this case, I think User:Curly Turkey has summed it up above. I also read that source and came to the same conclusion. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, Loudwire says their the 1 doom metal, as well as BangerTV. Ranker puts it at number 2 and Encyclopedia Metallum puts doom metal in their genre list. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 12:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Metal Storm puts Black Sabbath at number 1 in their doom metal list. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 12:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Might it be an idea, possibly, if you linked your sources here, instead of just reporting what you've read in them? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:56, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Encyclopedia Metallum is not considered as a reliable source since people can write there whatever they want. Same goes to Metal Storm or Spirit of Metal webzine. And the lists (top 10s, top 20s and so on) in websites like Loudwire or similar also fall in that category. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:34, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well if you can’t use those sources, then why don’t listen to atleast three of their records. You can hear stoner metal in most of Master Of Reality you can hear the thickness of War Pigs. A lot of their songs have doom metal’s thickness in sound. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 20:58, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And also Encyclopedia Metallum requires an edit to be made by first writing a comment with enough proof. If the proof says to you’re correct, then it is edited. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Listening to "at least three of their records" is really not going to make any difference to this discussion, I'm afraid. Indeed, any revelatory insights or stylistic conclusions achieved from such a process would be entirely discouraged as being WP:Original research. You realise, don't you, that we all must always use only WP:Reliable sources, regardless of own own personal subjective views? If you are unable to produce one single WP:RS which describes the band's music as "doom metal" I really think it's time for you to give up here, ok? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sixty Minute Limit: You can be sure that anyone who has made their way to Talk:Black Sabbath has spent considerable time listening to at least three of Black Sabbath's records—and most likely has learned to play many riffs and memorized a large volume of Sabbath lyrics. Please read WP:RS to understand what people are saying about sourcing, then please read WP:WEIGHT. When you're done, please try to understand some of our other arguments: Black Sabbath may have played Doom Metal, but unless their œuvre is overwhelmingly Doom Metal, then we can't describe the band as a whole as Doom Metal. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:08, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Should say Heavy metal not rock, this is a heavy metal group HailSabbath (talk) 02:49, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Occult rock

There are currently three sources that call Black Sabbath occult rock.[1][2][3] Please state your opinions of such addition with a 'support' or 'oppose' vote. ~SML • TP 23:16, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe pinging will help. @Martinevans123: ~SML • TP 23:56, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I see that chicagoreader.com only have it as a "vibe", not a true genre. But we do have occult rock as a notable genre, so maybe BS also belong there. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:46, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, because the first source is a "favorite albums" list by some musician, the second source is an interview with some author, which does not even say anything about Black Sabbath being "occult rock" band, and the third source is just an introduction to some band. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That second source says: "I don’t think that Black Sabbath could be who they are without their voices – it captures their spirit" and ""What’s the pivotal occult rock record?"... Certainly Black Sabbath’s debut...". But I agree, I'm not sure that author Peter Bebergal who wrote Season Of The Witch: How The Occult Saved Rock And Roll is really notable. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:20, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Jess and the Ancient Ones Favourite Occult Rock Albums". Prog. Retrieved 16 June 2018.
  2. ^ "Season Of The Witch: The Ideas Behind Metal's Occult Revival - Decibel Magazine". 12 January 2015.
  3. ^ Kendrick, Monica. "Castle tap into the occult-rock vibe made famous by Black Sabbath".

New Sources

There are new sources available. How do I update this page to include exerpts from the recent Toni Iomi Interview? http://ultimateclassicrock.com/tony-iommi-black-sabbath-sabotage/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeff Loveland 1970 (talk • contribs) 12:42, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Jeff Loveland 1970. This article is under something called WP:SEMIPROTECTION, but you have now made ten edits and are "autoconfirmed", so you can edit it like everyone else. Your source is probably ok, based on [2] (other people have used it quite a lot), more on that at WP:RS. Take the time to read Help:Referencing for beginners, then be WP:BOLD and see what happens. We learn WP by doing (and asking, and listening). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:03, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this article so long?

Just a thought; surely most of this is unnecessary? I'm not sure an encyclopedia needs an album-through-album history of the band. 92.3.208.149 (talk) 13:24, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2019

Please change "To expand their sound, the band added keyboard player Gerry Woodruffe, who also had appeared to a lesser extent on Sabotage." to "To expand their sound, the band added keyboard player Gerald "Jezz" Woodroffe...who had toured with the band on the Sabotage tour." Iommi, Tony. 2011. Iron Man: My Journey Through Heaven And Hell with Black Sabbath. Da Capo Press. p 150. ISBN 978-0-306-82145-5. Also noted in Stolz, Nolan. 2017. Experiencing Black Sabbath: A Listener's Companion. Roman and Littlefield. Maryland. p 69. ISBN 978-1-4422-5691-0 This sentence occurs immediately after the "Technically Ecstasy and Never Say Die!" heading of the Black Sabbath main page.

Here's the cut and paste of the original text:

Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die! (1976–1979)

Black Sabbath began work for their next album at Criteria Studios in Miami, Florida, in June 1976. To expand their sound, the band added keyboard player Gerry Woodruffe, who also had appeared to a lesser extent on Sabotage.


Please also note that Jezz Woodroofe has his own wikipedia page and if possible it should be linked.

Jezz Woodroffe was hired by Black Sabbath to tour on the Sabotage tour, to mostly play under Tony Iommi's guitar solos. He was present for the writing sessions for the Technical Ecstasy album, that was his first recording with them as well.

Liftpaintdrink (talk) 02:08, 23 October 2019 (UTC) Greg Williams Liftpaintdrink (talk) 02:08, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Linked to musician's page and changed to the form of the name used in that article's title. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:58, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2019

Bobzmoonz (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

it says has own pa instead of his own pa, I would like to fix it or have someone fix it.
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 18:55, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Thanks Bobzmoonz. Yes, that quote did not really make sense. I've found a better source and corrected it. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Heavy metal

Why is it that it says "rock" when it should be "heavy metal"? If heavy metal is their one and only genre, then why can't it go "Black Sabbath are a heavy metal band..."? Music2247 (talk) 22:07, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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