Talk:Chera dynasty

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Should'nt the succeeding States of Cheras be Zamorins, Kochi and Travancore( prominent among rather multitude of States that were formed after the fall of the chera empire in the 12th Century).Although the hoysala and Vijaynagar kings had conquered parts of the earlier "Chera areas", the chera kingdom broke up into many small Feudal kingdoms( "nattu rajyam")activevoid 20:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge Chera Kingdom with this??

Looks like the articles are very similar (not completely identical)... The contemporary Chola kingdom is described in Chola dynasty, while the Chola Kingdom is about the epic kingdom in Mahabharata. I think Chera Kingdom should redirect here Sadalmelik 17:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Dravidian civilizations

Wiki Raja 09:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Edits on December 12, 2007

Can somebody review on edits happened on December 12. I felt there is serious flaws on the edits.

Sentences like "Evidence for extensive foreign trade from ancient times is available throughout the Malabar coast, from the Roman, Greek and Arabic coins unearthed from Kollam, Kodungallur, Eyyal (near Trissur) in Northern Kerala"

are changed to

"Evidence for extensive foreign trade from ancient times is available throughout Kongu Nadu, Coimbatore, Palani, Karur, Salem and Dharmapuri"

I had placed a {{primarysources}} and {{confusing}} tags and that has been removed. Please confirm so that the actual revision can be restored. Thank You. P|^|C (talk) 09:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed POV Template

Removed POV template showing the kingdoms of Northern India as Empires, and kingdoms of Southern India as dynasties. No evidence as to whether all Northern kingdoms were Empires, while all Southern kingdoms were dynasties. Ashoka kingdom of Northern India is an Empire since it has controlled everything in South Asia outside its boundaries accept for Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka. While the Cholas of Southern India is also an Empire stretching from South India to Sri Lanka, Maldives, Malaysia, Sumatra, and Java with its Navies. "Middle Kingdoms of India" template shows only bias towards Indo-Aryan kingdoms, and also making it seem that the Indian Union existed for thousands of years. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

NonSense

"'Purananuru' refers to Udiyan Cheral, who probably ruled in the first century CE. It is said that he fed the rival armies during the war of Mahabharata. Imayavaramban Neduncheralathan, another Sangam age king claimed to have conquered up to the Himalayas and to have inscribed his emblem in the face of the mountains. Senguttuvan was another famous Chera, whose contemporary Gajabahu II of Lanka according to Mahavamsa visited the Chera country.[6]"

This is just a nonsense cause if Udiyan Cheral was known to have ruled first century CE he can not possibly serve food in the Mahabaratha time which happened or was written to be before Christ. --Challiyan (talk) 12:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Cheras and Pandyas both belong to the Villavar-Meenavar of Dravidian stock.During Mahabharatha times,around 1500 BC a prehistoric Pandya Kingdomdid exist and the flag of the kingdom was having Bow and arrow emblem. The king was kalled Saranga Dwajan meaning Bow flagged king. Similarly like the Malayaman flag of latter age Malayamantribe the another king from Pandya kingdom was called Malaya Dwaja(Hill Flagged king).Fish(Meen) Hill(Malai) and Bow and Arrow (Vil) seem to the ancient emblems of Villavar(Chera)MeenavarPandyan Kings. [1].The Dravidian kingdoms are many thousand years old though History is available only from the Sangha age ie since 500 BC.Another Utiyan Cheral could have lived during the Mahabharata period.Since the ancient Pandya Kingdom encompassed all the areas from Udupi(Gokarna) in Karnataka,Kerala and Tamil Nadu according to Mahabharata the Chera king was perhaps under the tutelage of Pandya king that time.Mahabharatha is a precious document of Indian history. Vilmeenkodi (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Tamil Or Malayalam

According to Eminent linguists like the great poet Ulloor, Malayalam has characteristics of an older language than "Paanti Tamizh". Tamizh meant language, and modern Tamil was referred to as "Paanti Tamizh". Malayalam was referred to as "Malanaattu Tamizh". Tulu was referred to as "Tulunaattu Tamizh". Kannada was referred to as "Karunaattu Tamizh".

Hermann Gundert referred to the ancient South Indian language as "Dramilam". So, how is Chera Dynasty "Tamil Dynasty"? Is not it Old Malayalam Dynasty? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Appu2000 (talk • contribs) 02:44, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Down with Tamil extremism. 160.80.2.8 (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Sangam Cheras are Tamils and not "Malayali"

There is difference between the two dynasties. They are in no way connected. This problem arises because in TN we know the diff. between Sangam, Medievel and later Cholas and Pandyas. In Kerala's history, no such long living dynasty existed.

The Kerala Varmas were in no way inferior. Remember Keralolpatti which says that the Cheras were from "paradesam" esp. east of Kerala-Malayalam which could be accessed only thro the Nerumangalam pass. I dony say that K has no history. I rather say that Kerala always was diff from "Tamilakam"..it is Koduntamizh mandalam as specified. Please read thurston K.Ulpatti,K.Vakshakramam and K.Mahatmyam for more insight. PS I am not the one the above post is referring to Konguboy (talk) 16:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

All I am saying is that before you rewrite the entire article, discuss every section properly here. Axxn (talk) 17:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Sangam age Cheras were of course Tamils, Malayalam was not even born in the Sangam era. The connection between the Later and Sangam age Cheras is well authorized by historians. And finally, you cant just add Tamil racism here.

18:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC))

I can see that the user Konguboy has been blocked multiple times earlier also for adding similar POV and ethnic hatred (Eg. here). So I am reverting his edits. If he blanks the sections again, I am going to ANI. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 18:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

>>you cant just add Tamil racism here Again, i plead you to read K. Ulpatti, K. Vakshakramam and K. Mahatmyam with Edgar Thurstond section on Namputhiris. Sangunni Menon is not an archeologist while Nagaswami is. Also remember that Malayala and Kerala desams r distinct.

@ C. Mannadiar. I can also do the same. See ur talk page for example. Be academic. This is not a cat and mouse game. What I said is from K. Ulpatti itself and not some Tamil racial text.

@ all. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CheraKonguboy (talk) 08:41, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This user Konguboy is adding and deleting articles like Chera Nadu Muziris Cheraman Perumal (Nayanar) Cheraman Perumal Tyndis Vanchi Muthur Kulashekhara Alwar

also, with no mercy along with this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.117.210.248 (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

For people involved in this. User konguboy and other IPs are socks of the indef blocked sock master User:PONDHEEPANKAR. He uses a variety of socks and three ip ranges - 59.96.26.14/20, 117.206.96.0/20 and 59.92.112.0/20. Please ignore him and revert on sight. If you find any more accounts repeating this behaviour file an WP:SPI--Sodabottle (talk) 10:34, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Who were the Cheras, Cholas and the Pandyas? The word Cheran. Chera or Sera is derived from the Sanskrit word ‘Chaaraka’ -which means ‘one who moves around on errands as a messenger as directed by his master.’ The Hindi equivalent for Chaaraka is Cheraa or Chela which means a servant. Now a days the word Chela is used to mean disciple, a friend or a companion. The feminine gender for Chera or Chela is Cheri or Cheli which means a maidservant. In the mediaeval period the kings and rich people used to employ a number of maid servants in their palaces, who were called as Cherias or Cheliyas. The sons born to these maids were called the Cheria- putrans or Cheriya- thanayas (sons of the house-maids).

Maha Padma Nanda (400-329 B.C.)  was the first non-Kshatriya  king who ruled over the  Magadha Kingdom.  He was the son of a Sudra woman who worked as a   housemaid in the palace of King Mahanandi. He usurped the Kingdom by killing the queen and her children ( Maha Padma Nanda –Wikipedia). As the Brahmins refused to recognize him as the king, he embraced Jainism.  A number of housemaids belonging to different castes used to work in the palace of the king and his nine sons. Most of these maids were Bhotiya women who migrated to the plains of North India from Tibet, Nepal and Bhutan in search of livelihood.. They were all called  Bhotiyas  or Nagas,  a matriarchal  society,  who worshiped  a  Himalayan Goddess called  Bhattini, ( called as’ Pattini)  in Tamil). It looks like that Maha Padma Nanda, unlike the earlier Kshatriya kings, took good care of the children born to his house-maids and appointed them as commanders of the elephant, horse, Chariot and infantry battalions in his great army.

Maha Padma Nanda being a shrewd diplomat appears to have sent the sons of his house maids to capture the entire east and west coast of India a few years before or after the invasion of Alexander the Great to protect his kingdom from any invasions by the sea and also to monopolize the entire spice trade that originated from South India. These commanders of Magadha Army established prestigious kingdoms in the states of Orissa, Andhra Pradesh , Tamilnadu. Karnataka and Kerala. For example it can be seen that the first Chera king called himself as Imaya Varamban Nedum Cherlatan- which can be written as Himaya +Vara + Amba + Nedum + Cherala +tan ( the son of a house maid who is blessed by the great Mother of the Himalayas) . Nedum may the proper name of the king or his mother. ‘Tan’ is a short form for thanaya ( which means a son ) This word appears also in the name of the great Pandya King Nedum-Cheliyan (-Nedum who is the son of a house-maid). Thus it can be seen that the words Cherian and the Chelian ( Cholan) mean the same thing. The name of another chera king is Vanavaramban Perum Chottu Udiyan Cheralthan which can be analyzed as Vana+vara+Amban + Perum+ Chottu + Udayan + Cherl + than, which means blessed son of the Great Mother of the noble forest, very short, Udayan the son of a cheri,(the house maid). All these kings transferred their loyalty to the Maurya kings after the fall of the Nanda Dynasty. Emperor Ashoka called them affectionately as’ Kerala-putras’ or’ Cherala-putras’ and accepted rich tributes from them without invading their territories. ( Ref: Hathigumpha inscriptions of King Kharavela- c. 150 B.C.E.). The Chinese traveler Huen Tsang expressed his surprise to find that these kings looked just like the Chinese. To conclude it can be surmised that none of these kings namely, the Cheras .the, Pandyas and the Cholas were native South Indians. They were all deputies of the Magadha emperors. They belonged to a Himalayan tribe which descended from Bhutan .They were all very short, red in color, belonged to a matriarchal society, which always takes the name of their mother before their proper name, practiced Jainism and later shifted to Buddhism. They also worshipped Lord Shiva, the God of the Himalayas and a Goddess called Bhattini ( a Himalayan Goddess worshipped in Bhutan and Nepal) and who is richly described in the famous Tamil epic ‘Silappadikaram’. They were also very shrewd businessmen. They owned a great fleet for military as well as commercial purposes.The Hoyasalas ( Haya Shaalas) and the Satavahanas( commanders of of hundred chariots) and Sata Karanis ( commanders of hundred elephants) also belong to the same category. All these kings ruled independently but paid tributes annually to the the Magadha emperor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Banda.krishna (talk • contribs) 15:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

IP edit warring with multiple editors including Sodabottle

117.206.107.58 stop edit warring and come here now before you get blocked--Lerdthenerd wiki defender 09:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting him .This is the indef blocked sockmaster and pov pusher PONDHEEPANKAR. per WP:DENY dont talk to him, just revert without pause. This ip range was blocked for a week and it expired yesterday. So he is back to his old activities. Just revert him and ignore him.--Sodabottle (talk) 09:02, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The exports of CHERA

It is known that early tamils(Chera)were massive warriors and creators of massive weapons.Damascus steel were actually found by the early tamils both in india and lanka and they were massively exported to western civilisation such as greece.Swords,tridents are the examples of weapons that were exported from tamillakam.Please include this information in this CHERA articles.--Tan Meifen (talk) 12:45, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Malayalam is not spoken in Chera Dynasty

Malayalam is not spoken even in second Chera Dynasty.The kingdom of Cheras comprised the modern state of Kerala,along with the Malabar Coast.The people of Kerala which constitute the ancient territories of the Cheras spoke the same language and had extensive interaction with the rest of Tamil Country.The Sanskrition of western Tamil country(Kerala)starts with a power in 9th and 10th century.Due to Sanskrit influence on their Tamil,their individual identity changed and new language(Malayalam)began to evolve and at 15th century Malayalam took its shape as current Malayalam language spoken by current people of Kerala.Even before the 11th century,the language is still considered a dialect of Tamil same as other dialects of Tamil spoken in Sri Lanka,Karnataka and Tamil country.The Cheras used only Tamil even in Second Cheras era where the important Kings such as Kulasekhara Varman is a Tamil Vaishnava saint(Alvar).The Cheras even doesnt have a Sanskrit version of origin like Cholas and Pandyans.They had a pure Tamil origin.Please remove Malayalam which is incorrectly stated as a language used by the Cheras.--Tan Meifen (talk) 07:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Wrong Information on Article

It seems that an important stimulus to state formation in southern India came from the Maurya empire in the north.[2] It is quite possible that the Maurya army who reached the Mysore borders in their conquest southwards, encountered the megalith making tribes who lived in hill forts and controlled the surrounding countryside

I want to clearly mention that Chera dynasty is not the earliest or the first kingdon that was established in ancient South India.The Pandyans were the first of the Three Celestial(other being Chera and Chola)to be established even before 1000BCE followed by Chera formed before 500BCE and finally the Cholas which is established before 300BCE.The only North Indian kingdon that have recorded their knowledge on the existence of South Indian Kingdom was the Mauryas.(in terms of Magadha,established around 600BCE,but never mentioned anything about South Indian kingdom)The Mauryas itself is established in 321BCE(after Alexander's campaign of Sindh),so how can a kingdom\empire that does not exist during the formation of Southern kingdom can contribute for formation of these Southern Indian Kingdom?It is impossible to mention that the idea of state formation of Cheras came from the Mauryas.Another question is,if Chera kingdom is not formed why the Mauryas is not able to conquer the land of the Three Celestials.During the arrival of Maurya,even the Cholas state also had already formed and the inteligence and war abilities of Ilamcetcenni(early chola king) against Mauryas were recorded in ancient Tamil literature.As whole it is quite unpractical and it is impossible to conclude that the Chera/any southern kingdoms were formed because of the Mauryas.The sentences that delivered these ideas(above) in this article also is not in a mood that delivers fact but just assumption.Please remove these kind of sentences or unpractical assumptions.The Mauryas never had control on any parts of ancient Tamil land.

The southern kingdoms such as that of the Cheras would not have been developed without the rapid spread of iron technology.

I would like to know why the Dakshina Patha became so important while these Cheras just mentioned as tribe.I also like to stress that no tribe in this world or to a lesser extent India,can propel sea trade between Western civilisation.It is also noted that in maritime India the shores of Cheras(Malabar Coast)and the shores of Pandya and Cholas had the ultimate importance compared to other parts of India.The sentence above also tries to convey a wrong idea that the iron tecnology in south is from north.The Cheras have been importing weapons made of Damascus steel to western civilisation from a very early period,even before the Alexander came to Macedonia's throne.The iron and weapon technologied that were used by three celestials were their own and is indigenous to their region.--Vartharajulu Naidu (talk) 10:02, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yavanas of the coast

Mention is made of the victory of King Nedum Cheralatan who defeated the Yavanas (Greeks? Romans?) of the coast and captured the Yavana chief and paraded him in the Chera capital. Nedum Cheralathan is said to have lived in the 4th century AD. The Peutinger tables have a "temple of Augustus" near Muzuris, and it may have been a local big temple which was mis-identified as a temple of Augustus.

source: A survey of Kerala history by Prof: A Sreedhara Menon, 1996 edition, published by S. Viswanathan Printers and publishers.

Keralolpathi - Panikkassery source

Can anyone tell me more about the Keralolpathi source authored by Panikkassery? I know what the primary material is but:

1. Who is the author? What are their credentials?
2. Is it just a translation?
3. Who are the publishers - I've never heard of them

I'm concerned that the thing may not count as a reliable source. Can we not find a modern academic history book that discusses the points that are supported by this source? - Sitush (talk) 06:18, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Religion

@Jossyys: Thanks for adding the citations. You are right in that the prevalence of these religions are of historic importance which is why they are already present in the article body. The infobox should however only list major religions as evidenced here. Similarly, we only list common/major languages under Languages. Minuscule percentages do not qualify as major.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 10:48, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

The book A Survey of Kerala History says that the people of ancient Kerala followed Dravidian practices which were not based on any particular religious philosophy [2]. It also says that all these three religions made steady progress within the framework of a free and open society and left their indelible impress on Kerala culture [3]. Those three religions must be Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism. This book mentions the progress of Christianity and Judaism in ancient Kerala as well [4]. In this context, is it correct to mention only one religion in the infobox and overlook other mainstream religions that were part of that region during that period? Jossyys (talk) 00:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Good job on digging these up :) I'd suggest that the Society and religion section should first be expanded to include a summary of all the views presented by Menon; the infobox should be supported by the contents of this section. Out of curiosity, is Cultural Heritage of Kerala (1978) considered a second edition of A Survey of Kerala (1967)? There appear to be a number of significant changes between what are otherwise the same passages with the later book being a lot more circumspect in its pronouncements. I also see that this article relies overwhelmingly on these and other books by Sreedhara Menon.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 16:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. In the early Chera period, the majority of the population followed Dravidian practices not based on any particular religious philosophy. There was no state religion. All mainstream religions came to the Chera land and got followers gradually. The percentage of people following any particular religion was not big. Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity were there in the first Chera period and all these religions had considerable influence on the society. So we can expand the Society and religion section and restore the earlier infobox that conveys this information. We do not have any statistics to come to a precise conclusion. The Chera kingdom was not too big to ignore any of these religions. Jossyys (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

In fact, Cultural Heritage of Kerala (1978) is not a second edition of A Survey of Kerala History (1967); according to the author, A Sreedhara Menon, it is a self-contained companion volume. Jossyys (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

That's a little odd considering the verbatim nature of many passages and chapter structures. Menon has also appeared to have significantly revised his views in his later book; but I'm leery of the quality of scholarship as well as the datedness of both of them in general. IMO, alternate, additional sources are required for this entire article. But I expect that they will be tough to find. Anyhow, on second thought, I don't think anything can be reliably done about this section as the entire article is a bit of a mess and in need of a complete overhaul. The Society and Religion section is currently restricted as it is placed under a Sangam Era section. So, anything from the time of the Later Cheras can't be included here. Besides, Menon deals with "Kerala" rather than just the "Cheras" which consequently requires an additional filter. With respect to the infobox, I would only include Dravidian folk religion and Hinduism; a case could be made for Buddhism and Jainism, but I don't think Christianity, Judaism, and Islam can be counted as major religions of the Chera kingdoms. Then again, I think the infobox is the least of this article's issues and IMO, it's of little import what goes in there until the rest of the article is fixed.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 14:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

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Coat of arms

@Chenmalli: "Copper coins with Chera symbols such as the bow and arrow" does not mean that the Cheras had either a coat of arms, or one with a bow or an arrow or a bow and an arrow on a yellow background and a weird flag. These are all fictitious depictions and do not belong in an encyclopaedia. You are welcome to cite Singh and add a note about Chera coinage. But the flag/coat of arms is WP:OR. Please also acquaint yourself with WP:BRD.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Unreliable source?

I have reverted this because I have doubts that the source is reliable. It seems to be an obscure publication by an obscure college. There is much pseudo-history etc surrounding ancient Indian dynasties and we really need to be careful. - Sitush (talk) 08:39, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

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Cheras as Malayalam or Tamil speakers

The repeated attempts to change the content about the language of the Cheras prompts me to write this section for future editors. Understandably, this is a controversial topic and one that could go against the grain of a lot of people's previously held views. However, upon the examination of the serious academic literature around it, the situation as it stands in 2016-17 is fairly clear.

Malayalam is now viewed to have evolved out the Proto-Dravidian language in the ancient era. The main reference for this is the path breaking article by A. Govindankutty who is a Professor of Linguistics and Indology at the University of Leiden. The article is 'From Proto-Tamil-Malayalam to West Coast Dialects' published in the famous 'Indo-Iranian Journal' which has been the location of many Aryan-Dravidian debates. The article is available online for free at this link - http://www.jstor.org/stable/24651352

This position has not been disputed and has been subsequently endorsed by the author of an authoritative compilation on Malayalam linguistics in 1997 - by R.E. Asher who was a Professor of Linguistics at the University of Edinburgh. And this support can be seen in the book 'Malayalam' published in 1997. It can be verified on 'page xxiv' and it is available online on Google books.

Bhadriraju Krishnamurty who is a prominent expert of Dravidian languages himself uses Asher and Kumari (1997) for his sections on Malayalam - as he is not an expert in Malayalam. Still, his Encyclopedia Britannica entry on Dravidian languages clearly shows the branching of Malayalam before Old Tamil (here Pre-Tamil). You can also read it online here - https://www.britannica.com/topic/Dravidian-languages

None of these references are lightweight academic contributions and no other evidence of a similar quality or expertise exists. It becomes therefore conclusive based on these that the language spoken in Kerala during the Early Cheras is Early Malayalam. This position does not dispute the fact that Malayalam and Tamil are closely related.

The innovation that is the Brahmi script was brought to Tamil Nadu from Northern India. And this innovation is apparently patronised by all kings of South India to write. It is understood that Tamil was not formed suddenly when the script arrived around 100 CE - and used to exist in spoken form much before that. The same case applies for Malayalam too. It was not formed magically around 800 CE when it finally develops its own unique script.

Hyper9 (talk) 08:44, 13 June 2017 (UTC)Hyper9.

@Hyper9: What you're indulging in is WP:SYNTHESIS. It is irrelevant to this article how old Malayalam is or which begat what. What is relevant here is what languages were used by the Cheras, early and/or later. Supporting citations provided should clearly address this matter. From what I can tell, Asher and Kumari do not cover this at all, certainly not in the cited page xxiv. (This article suffers from multiple POV issues besides this one. I'd also much rather see the languages and religions parameters left blank and let the body do the talking.)--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 11:16, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: Hi - Thanks for your comment. Upon careful reading of both the article and the comment above, you will find that I delineate between the language spoken in Kerala and that of the Cheras. The sources undoubtedly show that an early form of Malayalam is in existence in Kerala. And this along with Old Tamil has been put as the languages (in the box). The spoken language of the Cheras is unclear. It looks like the historian doesn't want to step into the linguist's territory and vice-versa. I have walked the tightrope and classified the Early Cheras' language as Proto-Tamil-Malayalam as the term is similarly inconclusive. True, there are some POVs here and there, but they are deployed to increase the explanatory power of various events and judiciously used with little hyperbole. As for the boxes, I think they are necessary summaries for casual readers. Rather than removing it altogether, I have been debating whether to split it into Early and Later Cheras. Any opinion? Btw, thanks for keeping a close eye on so many articles. Really appreciate your work rate. Sorry, dont know how to use the ping function on Wiki. Hyper9 (talk) 14:43, 14 June 2017 (UTC)Hyper9

@Hyper9: Hi. I don't see any delineation in the article and the sources show absolutely nothing about the languages of the Cheras. In fact, I see only one source dealing with this — Asher and Kumari — and it states nothing about the Cheras. Please feel free to quote a supporting passage from the page cited. The citation also does not cover the use of "Early Malayalam" or "West coast dialects" or "Old Tamil". Also, the lead and the infobox are meant to summarise the body which states nothing on the matter.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:59, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: Hi. The box is a reflection of the languages and religions practiced in the kingdom/state and not necessarily of the ruler. And this implication is clear to me, though Im not sure what the confusion is there for you. However, in light of this discussion which reflects the confusion a reader may have, the wordings around the languages has been changed and other usages uniformised.

@Hyper9: The provided source does not support the edit. Equating "prehistoric era" to the Cheras is not suitable and as noted above, is simply synthesis to support your own bias.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 06:36, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: The source answers a direct question - 'What are the languages spoken in these regions?'. The proof is provided by the references. Early Malayalam as acknowledged in Asher and Kumari. And Old Tamil as evidenced in Sangam literature written by poets and some Chera princes. How is that inaccurate? Not only this, you have now made several inaccurate edits. I will highlight them individually. Kindly provide the relevant references to support your edits. Also, please note that I removed the individual templates as there is a giant template on the top of the page already warning about the citations. Hence, the problem is already acknowledged until a point that the 'giant template' is removed (will await your response on this).Hyper9 (talk) 08:45, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hyper9: I haven't replied until now as you were going to "highlight them individually". What became of this? As in the edit message, the citation needed banner does not cover unreliability. And the banner does not necessarily preclude the use of inline tags which point to which passages need citations or which sources are unreliable etc.

As for the issue at hand, it appears we have now come full circle to simply including Malayalam and Tamil in the infobox. To my memory, this was pretty much what it was previously except it is now Early Malayalam (not properly supported by citation) and Old Tamil (which does not have a citation at all). And if the Early Cheras spoke Early Malayalam, what did the Later Cheras speak?--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 06:41, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - I did actually highlight them individually. You actually reverted several of my edits and re-introduced errors into the page and I have pointed them out in my edits. If the top banner does not cover so many citation issues, then I'm fine with this. I dont see the point in the banner then, frankly.

I will update the Early Malayalam/Old Tamil citations shortly. The question of differences in Early and Later Cheras has been pointed out earlier by me and I(or an interested editor) should take the appropriate steps with the relevant citations.

@Hyper9: I don't see any citations and you've also now introduced Menon as a source. This still remains synthesis or OR. I will be happy with citations for inscriptions or literary sources in Malayalam and the infobox simply reading Malayalam and Tamil as common languages. I doubt that the uncited Hebrew could be considered common. And frankly, unless a source directly states that Cherans spoke Malayalam or Old Tamil, it will be considered OR. Just stick to the source.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - This was exactly why Asher and Kumari (1997) were used. They are the main secondary authoritative source. However, you insisted in these discussions that you want a source that directly shows 'Early Malayalam' which is why Govindankutty (1972), which is the Original Research paper, had to be introduced. Anyhow, I have reverted it to Asher and Kumari who in essence verify the same.

The languages as with religions are indicative of those spoken within the territories/kingdoms/States ruled by the Cheras and not necessarily indicative of their own practices. Hence, all such religions and languages are mentioned. It is written clearly that they ruled "over territories" of such speakers.Hyper9 (talk) 20:26, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Best practices of scholarship require that the cited sources directly support statements. What you are doing is synthesis as noted in my first message. Please find a source that states that the Cheras ruled over areas with Early Malayalam speakers or that sentence will have to go. The same applies for Old Tamil. This is besides the fact that your interpretation of the source is incorrect as noted on the Malayalam talk page. The section under Later Cheras does note the presence of Malayalam and Tamil literature but does not appear to have supporting citations. The Menon citation at the end only appears to support religion from what I can tell in the snippet view. If you're going to make a distinction between Early/Old/Middle Tamil/Malayalam for Early/Later Cheras, then please ensure that these bits contain supporting citations. If the Menon citation covers it, then it's fine. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 20:52, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: The secondary sources ie Asher and Kumari (1997) "directly" address Govindankutty (1972) and support its conclusions - and there is no reason to believe that this is not so. They do not find it necessary to elaborate further. Where we dispute on the Malayalam page is not on the interpretation of sources but on who constitutes an 'authoritative' source or what is the nature of a 'consensus'. The Menon (2012) citation covers the paragraph. Hyper9 (talk) 22:52, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

When I emphasised directly, I was talking about the source directly stating that the Early Cheras governed areas with Early Malayalam speakers. This is why I've stated in my previous comment, Please find a source that states that the Cheras ruled over areas with Early Malayalam speakers or that sentence will have to go. The same applies for Old Tamil.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:09, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - The references outline that the languages spoken in Kerala during this period - first this is done clearly in the primary source Govindankutty (1972) and secondly verified in Asher & Kumari (1997). There is another supporting reference provided which clearly does the same ie S.V.Shanmugam (1976) - Formation and Development of Malayalam, Indian Literature, Vol. 19, No. 3 (May-June 1976), pg 26. However, you appear to not address this either.

Not only this, there is an obvious mis-understanding on your part to classify Asher & Kumari (1997) as original research (OR). This is asolutely not the case and merely follows the best practices of WP:SCHOLARSHIP to quote secondary sources.

I would welcome your edits provided that you can back up your own argument with the relevant reference directly addressing Cheras or Kerala. More importantly, it should directly address Govindankutty (1972) in order to exhibit that it has expertise over the matter - and contradict his position. However, you do not provide any. There is no point in disputing reputable citations which clearly address the issue at hand. You need to arrive at an educated position with the relevant references before disputing the existing references. Else, it is merely a clear manifestation of your own bias and POV.

If you wish to discuss and obtain consensus then first provide a reference that quotes Govindankutty and then rejects it. Otherwise any references you provide do not show any indication that they have even read or have the ability to critique Govindankutty (1972) or even Asher & Kumari (1997). Once, you provide such a citation, we can proceed with this debate (Talk) and try and obtain consensus. Reverting current edits till any valid counter-references are provided by User - Cpt.a.haddock. Hyper9 (talk) 12:59, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Let me make this clear one last time. Quoting from WP:SYNTHESIS,

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here.[9] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.

In other words, taking one source that states that Malayalam was spoken in prehistoric times and another source that the Cheras existed at some point then and then coming up with the conclusion that the Early Cheras spoke Early Malayalam is synthesis. Your provided source must state explicitly that the Early Cheras ruled over territories that spoke Early Malayalam. This is besides the fact that there are two competing theories (being actively disputed over at Malayalam) as to the origin of Malayalam, the less widely held being that of its existence in prehistoric times. To use only one of these during your synthesis also violates WP:NPOV.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:42, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - I repeat, clearly, once again that the references outline that these languages are clearly shown to be in use during the time periods and regions under discussion. This is, in fact, more clearly outlined in the supporting reference that has been added which clearly states this - S.V.Shanmugam (1976) - Formation and Development of Malayalam, Indian Literature, Vol. 19, No. 3 (May-June 1976), pg 26. Obviously, you have not referred to it as it clearly shows this conclusion in a tabular form. You do not address this at all in your edits.

There is no WP:SYNTHESIS involved as these references directly address the question of the language in use in the regions ruled by the Cheras - and are provided by expert Malayalam linguists unlike the your own POVs which are supported by references with ZERO publications on Malayalam-specific linguistics. And the challenge to provide any more authoritative reference for Malayalam linguistics (esp historical linguistics) is still open, to you or any interested editor. But you have not provided even a single such reference, so as to even begin a debate.

Indeed, disruptive editing would be a term applied to you as well and you would do well to reflect on your actions before accusing those of others. I have reviewed the literature on Cheras and some Malayalam linguistics and have provided the best references that I could locate for Wikipedia. I have significantly contributed to this article over time with high quality referencing. And unlike you, I have genuinely contributed to improving the WP article over a fairly long period of time. I am now strongly inclined to believe that you are resorting to disruptive editing on this page, more specifically only specific sections, to promote your own biases and POVs and this should attract the sanctions of a responsible editor/admin.Hyper9 (talk) 16:41, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

The references do not directly state that the Early Cheras ruled over regions where Malayalam was spoken. Both cited references only outline the two theories as to the origin of Malayalam. I've removed the contentious statements from the lead. If you can provide a reference that makes a direct statement as requested, then you are welcome to add it into the article. This is how Wikipedia works. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 17:40, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

In addition, the infobox now states that Malayalam was a common language in the Chera kingdoms. Those who want to learn more can read the article. The separation of Early Cheras and Later Cheras in the infobox is, IMHO, unnecessary and leads to unnecessary drama between the Tamil and Malayalam language warriors here.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 17:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: OK. Once again I have to break this down for you. That the Cheras ruled over large parts of Kerala and some regions of Tamil Nadu is clear and undisputed. If you are disputing this, then I would like to point out that you would be completely in error. Not only that it once again exhibits the clear extent of your biases and POVs.

The next question is to provide the languages that are in use in these regions. And this detail is provided in the sources outlined who are providing expertise in historical linguistics. This is directly addressed in Govindankutty (1972). Here, Govindankutty clearly states that the linguistic branch is that of the geographic area of the Western coast of South India. In fact, he explicitly calls it 'West coast' dialects and that is the title of the paper! And secondary verification of this paper is provided by Asher & Kumari (1997) and Shanmugam (1976).

You have indeed gone ahead and deleted the details in the Infobox. If your aim was this, it only shows clealy that you were NOT interested in obtaining consensus. Why did you even post comments here then? Not only this, you have gone ahead and broken YOUR OWN request to not edit the page. All of these clearly indicate biases/POV and lack of interest in obtaining consensus. All information needs to be supported with accurate referencing and sources rather than being not addressed at all. Hyper9 (talk) 00:10, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Thread created on NORN.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:25, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

talk - Great, Thanks. Will respond if required.Hyper9 (talk) 11:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

No takers. Now listed here.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:22, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Cpt.a.haddock - I have been pointing out that S.V. Shanmugam (1976:26) should be able to directly address all of your concerns which are not addressed by Asher & Kumari (1997). I have now retained it as the sole reference here. If you still have any queries, do revert back to me.Hyper9 (talk) 09:27, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Please directly address my concerns by quoting a statement or paragraph by Shanmugam where he states that the Early Cheras ruled over regions with Early Malayalam and Old Tamil speakers or words directly to that effect. And frankly, considering that there is a dispute about the antiquity of Malayalam, we will need multiple reliable sources to support such a claim rather than one obscure paper from 1976. Until you do that, such a statement cannot be used in Wikipedia. And Wikipedia is not interested in your summary or interpretation of multiple pages of a source for history articles. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 10:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

In this instance, there is a digital version of the reference at hand and I can provide you with a screenshot of the relevant page in question. As mentioned, this is a secondary, summarising, academic source. As for the content, neither am I interested in other people's un-referenced, un-backed claims, POVs, biases and notions which are clearly unaware of what the experts say. Your declaration of what constitutes an "obscure" paper only shows your lack of knowledge and related biases and POVs. Indeed, as I have mentioned earlier, there is very little that I have added on my own - what has been added to WP is the position found amongst the foremost experts on the subject under discussion. I dont think that, from what I have seen, you should have any authority to speak on behalf of WP as you do in the previous para.

Hyper9 (talk) 07:59, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The relevant page in question does not mention the Cheras anywhere. And you are well aware that there are two competing theories as to the origin of Malayalam and one of them posits an origin later than the 5th century mentioned. As long as these two issues are not addressed satisfactorily and with multiple reliable sources confirming the statement, your piecing together of sources to arrive at this conclusion will be considered synthesis in Wikipedia. Repeatedly reverting multiple editors without gaining consensus is not going to help. There's an open DRN on this awaiting a moderator. Use it or escalate the dispute resolution even further.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 16:56, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I think the above reference is as clear cut as it gets as far this issue is concerned. Moreover, it is by an established authority in the field, it is a secondary resource and a summarising paper fulfilling all criteria of WP:SCHOLARSHIP. You are now being disruptive on insisting on a verbatim requirement that will satisfy you which is totally unnecessary. Not only this, at the end of the DRN case on the Malayalam page, your counter-view was left with NO supporting citations. It is merely a general perception, and does not hold any substance as a reference.Hyper9 (talk) 18:27, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I have specifically modified the vague term "territories" and changed it to the present day names so that it is clearer for both the readers and you. If you still believe that there is a need to dispute this, then please go ahead with a dispute resolution method that does not involve moderated discussions and I will participate in such a method. Hyper9 (talk) 19:37, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

• I think there is some synthesis going on here. The Shamugum paper says that there may have been a proto-Malayalam at the time of the Sangam literature. It says that the Cheras ruled over a part of modern day Kerala. And it also says that some parts of the Sangam literature were either about or influenced by the Cheras. However, there are a couple of points to be noted here. First, the proto-Malayalam part is speculative even in the paper. I suspect a second source will be required because it, apparently, pre-dates the origin of Malayalam. Second, and this is the synthesis part, the writer says nothing about whether proto-Malayalam was spoken in the Chera ruled areas. Finally, of course, the paper is about linguistics and the Cheras get only scant and peripheral mention in the paper. I suspect a historical source would be a better bet here. Hyper9, it looks like the consensus is against your version. The onus is on you to seek dispute resolution at this point. --regentspark (comment) 22:14, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

regentspark - I dont know what kind of consensus you're talking about when you do not even present a supporting citation for your views. The Shanmugam (whose name you cant even spell) paper examines the evidence, debates it, specifically addresses Govindankutty (1972), agrees with him, extends the argument by providing more examples and summarises this on Page 10. He then summarises his conclusions of the entire paper clearly on page 26 (a kind of Table 101 for dummies), a screenshot of which I have attached above. If you or anyone wants to dispute it, at least begin with a counter-reference of similar authority and directly addressing the literature in question. Then we can even begin to think of a debate. Reverting unsupported edits. Hyper9 (talk) 10:37, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

The "Jack Turner" edits

@Hyper9: From what I can tell, you added the entire paragraph in question while citing the Hindu article which refers to "anecdotes" from Turner's book. The Hindu article mentions nothing about the Indus Valley, or 1500 BCE North Africa. You've subsequently added the Turner reference sans page numbers indicating that you haven't read/have access to the book. Furthermore, spice trade with Africa is already covered in the next paragraph with Kulke & Rothermund as a source. Please fix posthaste. Also, an infrared doctorate from a small English school does not imply robustness for history articles. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:07, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - There are a couple of issues with your comments on this. The finding of pepper is not an opinion of an expert, it is a fact and a piece of reported news that is available widely. It may be supported by the second citation that you mention (I need to verify it) - but unsurprisingly, you do not proceed to fix it. The reference for IVC has been re-arranged and is the same ie Menon (2012). The wording is clearly written as "around" 1500 as indicated by the dates involved. And Egypt is located in North Africa - unless Ancient Egypt was located somewhere else like you imagine it to be.

The author can be verified as a PhD in IR from the UoOxford - and can be reliably stated to have a knowledge of trade. If you think that this constitutes an 'infra-red' doctorate from a 'small' English school, then Im afraid it merely once again reflects the biases and POV's that you hold. I dont think that such a comment even merits further discussion.Hyper9 (talk) 07:50, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hyper9: So, now that you've added a page number, does Turner actually say "around 1500 BCE"? Does he say that traders from North Africa/Egypt came to the Malabar coast or vice versa? Please provide a quote of the relevant section. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - I'm not sure what your point is. Kindly elaborate - and if you have a counter-view, please provide the supporting reference. Thanks. Hyper9 (talk) 07:29, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hyper9: A quote of the relevant passage from Turner's book is requested. Thank you.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 08:12, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - Sorry, I do not have a digital version of the reference. More importantly, as implied by an academic reference, you are most welcome to check it yourself if you're interested. Hyper9 (talk) 11:07, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Please acquaint yourself with WP:HISTRS; newspaper sources are, in most cases, avoided in history articles. And I'll be happy with an accurately typed excerpt from the book which supports the statement you've added to the article.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 18:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - The newspaper article reports a talk by the source of the citation and is provided as a "supplement" to a scholarly source. In addition, I will shortly add more references. Hyper9 (talk) 21:17, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I've realised this is a pointless discussion. The article is about the Chera dynasty, not the history of the area, and events before the dynasty existed aren't relevant to the actual dynasty, so I've removed the paragraph. Doug Weller talk 10:23, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

This is fine by me. FWIW, the point about trade is amply covered in the next paragraph which used to be the first paragraph of the section prior to Hyper9's edits. It also has a proper source attached to it.---Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 10:47, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller, Cpt.a.haddock - There are two reasons why such information has been added. ONE, the Chera dynasty is not provided with a commencement date and its founding is unknown, as cited by expert historians. Unless you can provide me with the commencement date and supporting reference, I don't think that you (or anyone) can authoritatively claim that the dates are altogether irrelevant. TWO, the trade is definitely linked to the geographic area in question and is not explicitly linked to the Cheras in its current form. But it is well known and can be verified in multiple sources of academic literature. Neither is the subsequent trade directly linked to them - in which case one will have to extend your logic to prove that all trade has to be carried out by the ruling kings - here, there and everywhere. Hyper9 (talk) 21:56, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Cpt.a.haddock - The subsequent para addresses trade around the commencement of the Common Era and is quite poorly referenced. Even though I am probably the largest active contributor to this WP page, I have not had the time to address the issues raised. But with so many flags raised, what is this 'proper source' that you refer to in this para? Hyper9 (talk) 22:02, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

We'd need multiple reliable sources linking it to the dynasty, and we clearly don't and won't have them as no one seems to date it as that old. That is simply policy. And trade is not always direct, in fact very often not, nor is it always carried out by the producer, so your point about kings is irrelevant. Doug Weller talk 05:02, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - I completely understand your point. However, you should also see that no one dismisses the case either in the way you have decided to. I repeat that the expert literature does not date the origins of the dynasty. And this para (which is well referenced) sets up the context of the next para about trade in the early Common Era (which I would have properly referenced shortly). It is not concluded anywhere in the deleted para that the trade is by the Cheras themselves nor whether it is direct or indirect, so I'm not sure what your point is in relation to that.

Doug Weller - At this point, since you are an admin, I would just like to point out that the only reason I continue to edit and back up my positions is because I have actually surveyed the literature on the (few) topics that I am involved in - unlike the speculative disputes that are being raised. I am fully willing to defend my position as it is an educated one, with the support of the best references in the subject that I could locate. I am yet to come across more authoritative references provided by anyone on WP, though they are always welcome (which I have repeatedly stated). The DRN case that I was involved in will show you how the other editor's references dropped out one by one. The points being raised are interesting and usually based on some pre-conceived notions or logic, but clearly not backed up by any relevant references.Hyper9 (talk) 08:21, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hyper9: That's all excellent and would help in an academic paper. But I repeat, you would need sources dating the dynasty to Ramesses II's date. The time span between him and the earliest evidence for the dynasty is not insignicant. I am not dismissing anything, I'm telling you that WP:VERIFY is basic policy and you have to follow it. If you want to go to WP:RSN and say you wish to use certain sources to back certain statements that's your privilege. Can I also remind you that rarely is one source sufficient. My point about direct etc was in relationship to your statement about trade being carried out by the ruling kings, I was saying that was irrelevant. Doug Weller talk 18:07, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - As I mentioned in my previous reply. No one is dating the dynasty here, neither you nor I - perhaps you can re-read what you deleted. The para (that you deleted) is added to provide context to the subsequent para on trade - in fact, the deleted para is merely a well-referenced elaboration of the 1st line of the 2nd para. Otherwise, the trade of the early Common Era appears magically out of nowhere (instances of single trades upto 5 million denarii). Also, the deleted para is well referenced. And if needed, it can be provided with several further sources - all you need to do is just ask.

Your jibes are unnecessary and frankly beneath your own position as a WP admin (which you informed me personally). I repeat, there is no OR involved anywhere, nor do I claim to have the expertise for that level. Even after the elementary round of literature that has been examined, it is still obviously better informed and better referenced (better citations/references are always welcome) and has significantly improved the WP page. In fact, the next para (which I have not been given time to improve) is a good example of what the page was like originally and how much it has improved.

Your initial statement mentioning "direct", "indirect" trades is what elicited my response and it looks like we are in agreement on that. Hyper9 (talk) 10:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I made no jibes. I don't see evidence of pepper in one mummy as proving there was actual trade. What archaeological sources or ancient texts are evidence for an actual pepper trade, then or later? When is the next evidence of pepper in Europe or Africa? Doug Weller talk 11:24, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - Thanks for the clarification. The mummy example with black pepper is merely the most spectacular and well-known of the finds. But the trade is attested to in multiple sources. For more archaeological evidence and details, you can also refer to this and related citations. Page 43 might be the one you're looking for if you're not genuinely interested. Parker, G. (2002) - Ex Oriente Luxuria: Indian Commodities and Roman Experience, Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient, Vol. 45, No. 1 (2002), pp. 40-95. Hyper9 (talk) 11:54, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

See Indo-Roman trade relations. Does your source contradict this? Doug Weller talk 12:07, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - Is there any specific para or segment that you are referring to on this page? Generally, the Parker (2002) source is addressing from the 2nd millenium BCE, which is beyond the scope of that page. I have cross checked the source in the 3rd para of the lede (reference no. 3) and I would classify it as suspicious, requiring further verification. Overall, the page has seems to have dubious references and wording, especially when referring to regions in India. Hyper9 (talk) 12:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

"Ex Oriente Luxuria: Indian Commodities and Roman Experience" doesn't suggest a pepper trade as early as you seem to want to suggest. It doesn't even mention the mummy. It does discuss trade with Kerala of course. Doug Weller talk 17:06, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - The earliest dates and supporting references for the pepper trade are given on p43. Parker (2002) was given to show other instances and mentions of this trade in history. If you want to cross verify Ramses II, you can cross check with the WP page on Black pepper as well - and cross check the references provided in the History section there - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_pepper#History. Hyper9 (talk) 18:20, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I know about Ramesses, no need to verify. But Grant Parker doesn't given any sources for his shipwreck claims. He does say "and used in the later 4th/early 3rd centuries) in Greece. In any case, those shipwrecks were long before the Chera dynasty and given the lack of textual etc evidence, there's nothing to show continuing trade. Bottom line though this would belong in some articles but it's not relevant to the Chera dynasy, only their trade is relevant. Doug Weller talk 18:30, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - Well, if you're satisifed with evidence of ancient trade and it is only a continutation that you're concerned with, then its a different matter altogether. Parker's article lists the related references on ancient trade on the top of the page before stating that he isnt going into them as his focus is on the Roman one. Either ways, the trade is shown to be pre-existing and provides the context to the trade in the early Common Era. As I said, the deleted para is an elaboration of the first line of the 2nd para. And provides a context for the massive amount of Roman trade and related sources. As I said earlier, no claims are being made in it but just highlighting that it was a region that was within existing trade routes and does not appear miraculously.Hyper9 (talk) 18:48, 30 June 2017 (UTC)