Talk:Ezra Miller

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Flyer22 Frozen (talk | contribs) at 14:07, 29 November 2018 (→‎Gender-neutral pronouns). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Pronoun

Miller is gender queer, their pronoun cannot be strictly male, it should be either s/he and hir, zie and hir or they and their. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.7.90 (talk) 11:33, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, good luck with that. Zweifel (talk) 05:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Miller has stated that that he has no pronoun preference and is fine with he/him/his. (source)--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 07:37, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking at this edit war going on over the pronouns and am LMAOing over here. Remember that none of you are being paid for this sh1t. 100.38.27.113 (talk) 08:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since the subject doesn't have a preference, I would suggest we look at WP:GENDER which reminds us not to use pronouns that confuse the reader. For simplicity's sake, the article should use the biological pronoun. Ifnord (talk) 15:00, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The concept that other pronouns would confuse the reader inherently is based in the idea that the world is and should remain cisnormative, which is.... ignorant? And incorrect. They/them pronouns exist, and if it was wikipedia's job not to be confusing no human being would ever be educated by it. Let's link to the Wikipedia page for "nonbinary" or "genderqueer" on the first instance of a they/them pronoun if we must, but prefering he/him BECAUSE it is "the biological pronoun" - even if it is one of many Miller uses - is inherently transphobic. The effort is to erase an identity that might be confusing, which can never be separated from transphobia. As a side note, I got an edit war warning for changing the pronouns - and I see now that the pronouns have been changed back, which strikes me as identical "edit war behavior." (Yes, signed as an IP edit, but that's not for lack of Wikipedia experience - can't find login info for my account.) 2605:E000:2EC8:CD00:2121:EB60:1CE5:C32D (talk) 11:08, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Which ever pronoun you choose, it can never be "it" in reference to a human being. Due to Miller's stated gender identity in interviews, "they" is the correct referential pronoun. This is established usage with centuries of history, and there is no reason to keep changing this article to fit your political views. 84.48.192.105 (talk) 21:30, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Photograph

With Ezra Miller now playing the Flash and so now an actor of increasing interest to children, I advise that his main photograph be changed to include one that does not feature smoking. I am not opposed to smoking, but it seems that there should be so many pictures available of Miller that it is not prudent to choose one that does involve smoking for such a prominent place in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.130.188.112 (talk) 19:40, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the photograph was changed accordingly, but shouldn't we maybe update it with one from 2016, at least? There are some good photos of Miller from the 'Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice' European premier, such as this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurochrome (talk • contribs) 23:08, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Activism

Ezra is twice referred to as an activist but I don't see any material that amplifies those assertions. Docdave (talk) 03:05, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Opera singer

As far as I can see, Miller sang as a young child occasionally in an opera chorus. I don't see how that makes 3 opera-related categories a defining feature of his career, and they ought to be removed, especially the utterly inapplicable Category:People associated with the Metropolitan Opera. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Playboy interview

Can someone please ad something about his playboy interview? I am personally horrible at writings this stuff but it at least seems very relevant193.33.246.241 (talk) 11:16, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Gender-neutral pronouns

A couple of IP editors have been changing the page today, replacing male singular pronouns (he, him, his) with gender-neutral plural ones (they, their, them). I don't disagree with the intentions behind this, but I'm not sure that it's in-line with WP:MOS guidelines, and it makes the article awkward to read - how should verbs following the pronoun be treated? Since we don't seem to have any guidance on this at the moment, I'm going to start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style so we can get consensus on how to proceed. Please don't continue with these changes until that discussion has taken place. GirthSummit (blether) 19:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See archived discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 198#Singular they. GirthSummit (blether) 09:21, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There is a correct grammatical answer to that question: verbs following the singular they/them are conjugated exactly as you would for a plural they/them. This phenomenon is similar to the words "everyone" and "everybody" being treated as singular when interacting with verbs. A few good examples are shown in the Wikipedia article on the Singular they. 2605:E000:2EC8:CD00:2121:EB60:1CE5:C32D (talk) 11:35, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Coming from the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral pronouns: guidance discussion (a permalink here), I will note here as well that the Associated Press states, "They/them/their is acceptable in limited cases as a singular and-or gender-neutral pronoun, when alternative wording is overly awkward or clumsy. However, rewording usually is possible and always is preferable." It also states, "In stories about people who identify as neither male nor female or ask not to be referred to as he/she/him/her: Use the person's name in place of a pronoun, or otherwise reword the sentence, whenever possible. If they/them/their use is essential, explain in the text that the person prefers a gender-neutral pronoun. Be sure that the phrasing does not imply more than one person." I'll contact WP:Film about weighing in on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:19, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:GENDERID seems to apply. If 'they' is to be used, I suggest pronouns aren't used in the text until the reason why has been explained, which should be early in the lead. William Avery (talk) 07:39, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
William Avery, as seen above, I suggested similarly. With this edit, I changed the few singular they usages to the surname Miller. If we are to use singular they in this article, it needs to be made clear in the lead and/or with a hatnote that Miller is non-binary and so the pronoun usage is non-standard. But we should still avoid the singular they usage unless necessary. I don't see that Miller even regularly uses singular they for their gender identity. As seen in the Personal life section, Miller uses all pronouns interchangeably. We obviously are not going to use all pronouns interchangeably in this article, as to not confuse readers and have an inconsistent article in terms of pronoun usage. More discussion on this is seen at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Meanwhile, back on earth ... (a permalink for it is here). SMcCandlish has dealt with this type of thing at articles for non-binary people and might have thoughts on what to do in this case, such whether or not to use a hatnote. At articles for non-binary people, we should also keep in mind that a non-binary person may not use gender-neutral pronouns. Ruby Rose for, example, identifies as genderfluid, but still uses feminine pronouns. We had people jumping to use singular they for her without knowing her pronoun preference (and some seemingly did so even while knowing it). If the non-binary person hasn't expressed a pronoun preference, it might be best to go by the pronouns that the preponderance of reliable sources are using for that person. Although Miley Cyrus has identified as genderfluid, her Wikipedia article still uses feminine pronouns. This seems to be due to the fact that Cyrus didn't specify a pronoun preference and the preponderance of reliable sources still refer to her as a she. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would just repeat here what I already said at WT:MOS#Gender-neutral pronouns: guidance.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:08, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I think that may help calm things down. Perhaps one day I'll understand why people get so worked up about this stuff. William Avery (talk) 09:03, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
William Avery, it's just a matter of people not being used to someone using singular they as their pronoun preference and its ability to cause confusion. 192.182.205.156 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been changing some parts of the article away from singular they to "he," stating that Miller has stated that he uses masculine pronouns. That's something that needs to be sourced in the article then, similar to the Ruby Rose case. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ezra Miller is not Jewish

Just because he "feels" Jewish that doesn't mean he is a Jew. The Code of Jewish Law clearly states that a child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of the father’s lineage (or whatever else may show up in a DNA test), while the child of a non-Jewish mother is not Jewish.Мишкин (talk) 08:15, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Who cares what the "Code of Jewish Law" says. He does not need permission to self identify with his Jewish heritage from his father's side. --Gonnym (talk) 19:45, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The reference specifically quotes him referring to the traditional definition and how it dates from a time before DNA tests etc so mothers would be the only certain parent. Perhaps add a bit more from the quote to the main text for those who might take issue with him identifying with his paternal ancestry. CallyMc (talk) 21:51, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is a thorny question! Firstly, I am not sure that "self-identification" of ethnicity is an accepted thing: see Rachel Dolezal. With that question set aside for now, let's look at Who is a Jew? Yes, this is really a Wikipedia article. Since the Jewish religion predates the separation of national identity from religious belief, it is much like Hinduism, where there is no clear delineation where a person can say "this is how I understand God" vs. "this is how I view my national / cultural identity". Now, it would seem that on Wikipedia, we maintain a distinction between "Jews" and those who do not self-identify as Jewish, yet they carry some Semitic DNA. In Category:Jews, the description says, "
This category is for individuals who are Jews. For people of Jewish descent who don't identify as Jews, please see Category:People of Jewish descent.
". So I would say, that giving Miller the benefit of the doubt, we can safely include him in all applicable categories, because he does identify as a Jew and he is also of Jewish descent. I think restricting this to matrilineal descent is a red herring due to the variance even among Jews for that criterion. 2600:8800:1880:188:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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