Talk:Saiō

Wikipedia:Copyright problems

As the owner of the website in question, I decided to post the information that I had collected on my personal website here at Wikipedia for the benefit of a wider audience. To mark quoting my own website as a copyright violation was perhaps a misundertanding and nothing more. The original information came from the Historical section of the Town Hall of the Town of Meiwa in Mie Prefecture, for the purpose of promoting the town to visitors and interested parties. Other sources include the excellent Saiku Historical Museum which is a short walk from Saiku station. It would be nice to remove the copyright warnings at the start of this article. If you need confirmation that I am the owner of the above website, please send an email to the address you'll find on that site under the first link (then scroll to the bottom of the page). Ka-ru 17:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the article as a copyvio. If you are the copyright holder for that Web site, please see WP:CP for the two possible ways to release permission to Wikipedia to use your text. Otherwise, it cannot stand. Thanks! --Aguerriero (talk) 22:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Would have been nice to have been told this before it was deleted. Couldn't be bothered recreating it all, but I don't want it to disappear, either, so I'll just put some basic info in and link it back to my original notes. Ka-ru 01:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

If you can follow the directions at WP:CP, I can undelete it once that's taken care of. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, the following is what needs to be done:

Copyright owners who submitted their own work to Wikipedia: If you submitted work to Wikipedia which you had previously published (especially online), and your submission was marked as a potential infringement of copyright, stating that you are the copyright holder of the work on the article's talk page helps, but will not likely prevent deletion. It is sufficient to:

• Make a note permitting reuse under the GFDL at the site of the original publication.
• Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to permissions at wikimedia dot org or a postal message to the Wikimedia Foundation.

···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Email sent! Ka-ru 03:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Complete rewrite

I've decided to do a rewrite of this article in conjucture with a few other new articles. It seems the whole history and legend of Ise Shrine is not covered very well, which is a shame considering it is the main Shinto shrine for all of Japan. I couldn't find any info on Wikipedia on Yamatohime-no-Mikoto, for example, who is said to have founded the shrine. I'll start by first seeing what is here (the article on Ise Jingu needs expanding), and will spend some time down at Saiku Museum to make sure I get all my facts straight. This all ties in with Nachikatsuura and the Kumano Kodo so I expect it will take some time to do. Ka-ru 06:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Good luck! I look forward to seeing the results. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 23:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Added sections on the origin, role and choosing of the Saio, as well as the 2 major Saio related festivals. I have 1 or 2 photos from this years Saio Matsuri that I'll see about adding to the article. There are a number of side topics that need to be added to make this section complete. I tried my best to reference as many other relevant articles as I could from this one. Essentially the Saio is the link between Ise Shrine and the Imperial Court during the Asuka to Heian periods. The demise of the Saio system is complex and a little obscure as it basically faded out of existance during the civil war period. Saiku was only rediscovered in 1970 when they were digging foundations for new houses here in Meiwa, and excavations have revealed that the Saio residence currently sits under the Kintetsu Kashiokojima railway line, the main rail link to Ise and Shima. I'm quite surprised at how empty this whole area is on Wikipedia. Picked up some books on Japanese pre-history legends and on Shinto beliefs in Nagoya on the weekend, which should really help make these entries more complete. Ka-ru 08:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Saio List

I've been down to the Saiku museum and photographed the list of Saios they have printed on the wall. I did this because the list that has been posted in this article seemed a bit strange. It didn't correspond in a few places with other literature I've read. It first glace, the unsourced list is quite a bit out in terms of dates and such. Ka-ru (talk) 04:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced that the minor modifications I've made to the tables in this article are improvements. What do you think?

Header: In this context, the redundant table caption line seems merely optional to me -- formatting edits which seem neither obviously better nor worse; however, in other contexts my tentative views about my own work are less ambivalent and a bit conflicted ....

• Good enough for now:
  • Japanese era names#Conversion table from Gregorian calendar years to nengō
  • List of Emperors of Japan
• Not-so-good (for now):
  • Daijō-kan#V. Ministry of the Military
  • Hyōbu-shō#Ministry hierarchy

In-table citation: Although I do understand the point, one of my pet peeves are those Wikpedia editors whose contribution appears to consist of nothing more than adding tags to articles which don't have "enough" in-line citations and/or bibliographic notes for reference sources. In response, I initially over-reacted by incorporating far more in-line citations in Wikipedia contexts than would be reasonable in other academic writing. Now my view has changed somewhat. I'm persuaded that over-citing actually helps the uninformed reader in assessing the validity of the text. My outlook continues to evolve; and I wonder if the value of these tables isn't enhanced by confirming that the data-array conforms to one of the wall-mounted captions in a Saiku Historical Museum exhibit?

Conflict: In any case, I wonder if we should begin to feel a bit concerned about Yamatohime-no-mikoto? The Ancient Shrine Priestesses table suggests that Emperor Sujin's daughter was a priestess at Ise Shrine before the daughter of Emperor Suinin "discovered" Ise as a place for Amaterasu-omikami to dwell. I'm wondering if this implies Saiō#The origins of the Saiō needs a little re-working? These aren't rhetorical questions. At this point, I'm assuming that the sources on which the Museum relies are superior to what informs the historical accounts which are now posted in related Wikipedia articles. I look forward to working with you in clarifying this minor discrepancy. --Ooperhoofd (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm in a bit of a rush at the moment so I will look at most of your points tomorrow. The "Ancient Shrine Priestesses" table was originally deleted by me, then added back. I'm unsure what to do with it. The person who added it also added the full Saio list. I don't know where they got that list, but nowhere in either Saiku museum or Itsukinomiya Historical Experience Hall does it mention any "Saios" prior to Princess Oku", nor did the curator of the museum when I spoke to him. Not only that, but there are enough errors in the actual Saio list that was initially posted (most of the early kanji names are wrong, and a number of dates are slightly out) to leave me with great doubts about the "Ancient Priestess" list's accuracy. I don't think it should be included in this article as the Saio System was established by Temmu, but I'm not sure if I should just delete that part. Any suggestions? Ka-ru (talk) 17:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not move the questionable table here -- thus inviting further comment from those who may be able to help verify the information it presents? In that context, I would have thought the article can tolerate the verifiable accuracy of the not-necessarily-inconsistent text at Saiō#The origins of the Saiō --Ooperhoofd (talk) 20:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

QUESTION:
Can anyone help to verify that these were priestesses of Ise Shrine
pre-dating the establishment of the Saiō system by Emperor Temmu?

Ancient Shrine Priestesses
Saiō	Japanese Name	Appointed by	Relationship to Emperor
Princess Toyosukiirihime	豊鍬入姫命	Emperor Sujin	Daughter
Princess Yamatohime	倭姫命	Emperor Suinin	Daughter
Princess Iono	五百野皇女	Emperor Keikō	Daughter
Princess Iwashima	伊和志真皇女	Emperor Chūai	Daughter
Princess Wakatarashihime	稚足姫皇女	Emperor Yūryaku	Daughter
Princess Sasage	荳角皇女	Emperor Keitai	Daughter
Princess IwakumaQUESTION-A?	磐隈皇女	Emperor Kimmei	Daughter
Princess UjiQUESTION-B?	菟道皇女	Emperor Bidatsu	Daughter
Princess SukatehimeQUESTION-C?	酢香手姫皇女	Emperor Yōmei	Daughter

• ^QUESTION-A? Emperor Kimmei includes this unsourced "fact": "Imperial Princess Ihane-hime or Ihakumo, Ise Virgin; had to resign her charge being convicted of intrigue with her half brother Imperial Prince Mubaragi"
• ^QUESTION-B? Emperor Bidatsu includes this unsourced "fact": "Princess Hiro Hime, daughter of Prince Mate no Okinaga ; [became] Empress 572; died 575; [produced] 3 imperial children ... [including] Princess Uji no Shitsukahi"
• ^QUESTION-C? Gukanshōo records that Emperor Yōmei had "three Empresses and seven Imperial sons and daughters," but nothing to do with the Ise Shrine. --Ooperhoofd (talk) 20:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

References

Requested move 24 October 2023

Saiō → Saigū – The Kokugakuin University page which I see as the most authoritative English language source uses the term Saigū to refer to the Saio https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=8608 and Japanese wikipedia uses Saigū to refer to her as well

I also proposed a move on the palace Saikū for the same reason. If we go through with this merge we might want Saikū to redirect here, or be the main title, but if we do that give some time for changing all the links there Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 17:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 00:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I cannot support changing the name of this article from it's common use name (Saiō) to a name not commonly used. Some examples of official Japanese sites on the topic: Official Local Tourism site [Ise], Official Saiku Museum [Historical Museum], Official Meiwa Town (location of Saiku) information guide [[1]]. The term "Saiō" is used at the location and in all of the relevant documentation and sites related to it, including at the Ise Grand Shrine. I'm not sure if the Kokugakuin University article is using an old/historical usage of the name or a mistranslation, but it is most definitely not the name used today. A simple online search of the two terms will show this. I do want to say that I appreciate your work and your interest in this topic. (talk) 14:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Ka-ru also your signature is broken Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I still think the other one is more important and Saiku/Saigu might be best as disambiguation pages Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: One last relist, to hopefully determine a consensus either way BilledMammal (talk) 00:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

As I mentioned on the category's discussion, there's confusion about the terminology. There are two kinds of Saiō/Itsuki no miko, the Ise Saiō (also called Saigū, or as Wikipedia seems to prefer Saikū) and Kamo Saiō (also called Sai'in). Because the Ise Saiō was more popular, the general term "Saiō" is often used to refer to her. I support keeping the distinction. -Invokingvajras (talk) 03:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@Invokingvajras so to clarify Saio is a category of all princess-priestesses, and Saigu is the one at Ise and Saiin is the one at Kamo? Does this mean that you think the page should be moved in order to make the distinction clearer? This one seems to only talk about the Saigu and not the general concept, and looking at other languages it seems ja:斎王 refers to the general concept, and ja:斎宮 refers to the specific one at Ise, but other languages are a big hit or miss, indicating almost every other language is confused about this.

Maybe we could make Saio into a disambiguation page or a brief explanation of the concept and links to Saiin and Saigu, after correcting links to Saio that are obviously intended for Saigu of course Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 07:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I seem to see some confusion over some of the terms. Saiō refers to the princess/priestess, and Saikū refers to the residence. I've previously supplied links to show this. There seems to be some people connecting Saikū with the term Saigū and implying that Saikū refers to the princess/priestess without any evidence provided, which it does not, it is the residence only, situated in Meiwa Town, Mie Prefecture (again, refer back to my previous links). Again, all I can say is that the authority on this topic is the Saikū Historical Museum [Historical Museum], a Japanese national museum set up on site for the sole purpose to research, educate, and preserve all things to do with the Saiō/Saikū. If people want, I'd be happy to rename the article "Ise no Saiō". I can't see "Saigū" being anything more than a redirect as it is simply not commonly used (where Saiō is the common -only- usage at the site, at Ise, in the town, in the prefecture). I'd be happy with a Saiō disambiguity page as I am aware that there were other Saiōs, though Ise no Saiō, as stated, was the most well know. I've just notice the Saikū article is now called Saikū Palace, which isn't quite accurate, but I can live with it. Ka-ru (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)