Talk:Abeba Aregawi

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Swedish, Ethiopian, or both?[edit]

I edited the initial paragraph to read "Abeba Aregawi Gebretsadik (born 5 July 1990) is an Ethiopian/Swedish middle-distance runner". The reason being that she possesses both swedish and ethiopian citizenships, like it says in the infobox.

16:20, 27 December 2013‎ BabbaQ (talk | contribs)‎ . . (9,951 bytes) (-14)‎ . . (you are either swedish or ethiopian. sure she has competed for ethiopia but now she competes for sweden and is a swedish citizen. bring it up at talk page for consensus.)

If nationality = citizenship, she can be said to be both swedish and ethiopian. If however, nationality = ethnicity, the label would be ethiopian. In any case, choosing to compete for Sweden doesn't mean she suddenly loses her ethiopian nationality. My edit is therefore more accurate than the current version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Häxhammaren (talk • contribs) 18:56, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion the article clearly states further down that she has both Swedish/ethopian citizenship. But Wikipedia articles mostly has one nationality mentioned at the beginning of the lede. And as it is clearly stated in the article about the two countries and the fact that she is now a Swedish citizen firstly and competing for Sweden she is Swedish and Swedish should be the only nationality mentioned first in the lede. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 19:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If only one nationality should be mentioned, doesn't it seem strange that 1 year of possession of swedish citizenship should trump 23 years of ethiopian? Whichever country an individual chooses to compete for has no bearing on actual nationality. Swedish citizenship is a prerequisite for competing for Sweden, but participating in athletic competitions in itself doesn't make someone more swedish than otherwise. If we can only have one nationality mentioned in the lede, we thus have one year of swedish citizenship versus twenty-three of ethiopian. Add to that that the amharic language is her native tongue. I don't know of her proficiency in swedish but it's extremely unlikely that it rivals her fluency in amharic. According to swedish wikipedia, she currently resides in Ethiopia as well. My conclusion is therefore that her primary nationality, if there is such a thing, and we cannot have both, is more accurately given as ethiopian. Respectfully, Häxhammaren (talk) 20:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We've had these situations arise in the past. See Yamilé Aldama and Félix Sánchez for some examples. And we've had arguments. I noted in Meb Keflezighi that he was born in Eritrea, but began running in the United States, contrasted with Bernard Lagat who had a stellar career for Kenya before naturalizing. We clearly should state the facts; Where she was born, who she competes for. We don't need to hybridize words to blur the statements of fact. If you can prove she has competed internationally for Ethiopia, then add a source. It would also be good to find a date she made the switch--these formal changes are usually in a form of public record through the IAAF. Trackinfo (talk) 00:15, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have made a Meb Keflezighi solution to the problem. I hope that is a satisfying solution for all parties. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 00:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Trackinfo, the question here is not which country Aregawi competes for. The question is the initial nationality label in the opening paragraph ("AA (..) is a Swedish etc."). Whether someone has represented, for example, the United States in zero or ten thousand races has no bearing on the individual's nationality. Generally speaking, the term nationality can mean either citizenship or ethnicity. In the americas, it may be equal to citizenship. By contrast, in european nation-states, ethnicity lies closer in meaning. On the english wikipedia, the citizenship definition seems to be the predominantly used. It also has the advantage of being significantly less troublesome to determine. It might be preferable to have consistency in this matter across the wiki.
In the case of Meb Keflezighi, he was born to Eritrean parents in Eritrea and raised there. I assume he has both Eritrean and American citizenships, yet is only labeled as American in the lede. Félix Sánchez is only called American, even though he must have a Dominican citizenship due to the fact that he is allowed to represent the Dominican Republic (IAAF Competition Rules 2014-2015, Rule 5). Bernard Lagat has dual citizenships and has both mentioned ("Kenyan-American"). To further complicate things, Yamilé Aldama isn't called British, Cuban nor Sudanese, but international. Aregawi, as we know has dual citizenships since one year, yet is labeled as just Swedish.
From this I can gather the following. If you have three or more citizenships, you're international. If you've got two and either of these is American or Swedish, only this one will be mentioned, unless the other citizenship is Kenyan, in which case a combination may be used. These differences are slightly jarring. There are a number of ways to settle for; using the most recent, the first, the longest possessed, all of them, etc. For my part I recommend mentioning all known citizenships in alphabetical order connected by hyphens. In any case, it would be good to settle on a universal standard. Your thoughts? Best regards, Häxhammaren (talk) 20:27, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just for stating the facts clearly: Ethiopian born, now representing Sweden internationally, former Ethiopian Olympian are things I think would be appropriate to say. If you can document the citizenship situation exactly (which would involve using sources) go ahead and discuss the dual citizenship. Each country has their own laws that must be adhered to. If you can explain it for Sweden or Ethiopia based on sources, have at it. I remember Wilson Kipketer had a lengthy process to run for Denmark and missed out on what should have been his Olympics to win. For each of the above named athletes, they had a journey to reach the current situation, which country they represent. They are still active so I guess it could be said that this is just the current information. And you might note some hypocrisy in my suggestion of using sources, when I made a bunch of edits without sources. What I added were statements of facts based on public record results documented elsewhere in the linked articles on wikipedia. I believe in trusting the source to cross reference properly rather than nit picky word for word sourcing for each edit. If challenged, all we have to do is copy/paste the source from the original articles. This however is different, you are describing her unique case, a WP:BLP and that should be done accurately based on facts not conjecture. Trackinfo (talk) 21:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is well documented that Aregawi is now competing for and is a Swedish citizen. Even though she is training and practicing in Ethiopia because she is used to the weather etc in that country. But she is Swedish by law. Secondly I do not see why Häxhammaren find it to be so important to mention Ethiopia in the elde even more than it is already mentioned. It is mentioned first in the lede from where she was born and it is mentioned several times in the article that she has competed for Ethiopia and was born there. It is not like anyone is trying to hide that fact, because it sounds like the user is implying that and frankly I find it unnecessary to go so far considering that I added the information and tried to solve the issue. Frankly if it continues it will soon look like POV-pushing. Hope it doesnt have to go that far. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 21:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BabbaQ, I in turn cannot see why it's so important to you to avoid including her Ethiopian nationality in the first sentence. You seem to be fine with her being labeled just Swedish, however, despite the fact she has both these citizenships and none has primacy over the other. You're also prepared to make adjustments when it comes to putting her place of birth in the lede, but to label her Ethiopian-Swedish, that's not possible. Why? Her place of birth was already in the infobox and partially in the second paragraph so it seems weird that it's alright to repeat where she was born once more but not give her a nationality labeling which includes both citizenships because then it's apparently superfluous. Any particular reason why my edit is needless while yours isn't? Bernard Lagat has both citizenships mentioned and that works, while Yamilé Aldama is said to be international and then the details follow. Let's just pick one way and be done with it. Not that I don't like discussions, but this is a lot of fuss about something trivial. Respectfully, Häxhammaren (talk) 08:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes as you say "but this is a lot of fuss about something trivial" and you tell us to pick one and it has been done, and frankly it seem like you are the one unwilling to let it go. I still do not understand really what the major problem is. Her birthplace is mentioned first in the lede, she is now a Swedish citizen participating in international events for Sweden. So she is a Swedish runner, it is mentioned in great detail that she has been a runner for Ethiopia and now is a runner for Sweden further down in the article. It is not like you are implying that the article is emphasizing her being Swedish quite the opposit. Well, I have tried to explain it once so I do it again. Most Wikipedia articles do not use the Ethiopian/Swedish style in the lede so mentioning the persons current nationality is for the best. It will soon be POV pushing and frankly you need to let this go now. It is very evident in the article for anyone reading it that she has roots in Ethiopia. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 13:01, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I meet users like you all the time and frankly I have been that kind of user in the past as well. I/you edit an article and then when it gets reverted or change I/You make it into a "battle I have too win at any cost". and I have to be honest it will always lead to the one starting it (in this case you) looking like a stubborn human. --BabbaQ (talk) 13:05, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the reason why you meet users like me "all the time" could be because you perceive people that disagree with your POV as stubborn. Why are you so desperate to have it only say Swedish this and that, when she has a Swedish citizenship just as much as she has an Ethiopian one? You'll happily add her birthplace into the lede and exclaim that the issue is resolved, but that wasn't the point. I made a nice sidestepping of the issue by labeling her international in the first sentence, which most certainly is not an incorrect labeling since she has represented multiple nations, and from there on, it is quite apparent to the reader in both the infobox and in the rest of the article what the whole story is. But that's not good enough for you.
You wrote: mentioning the persons current nationality is for the best. Well, Ethiopian is still her current nationality, she hasn't ceased being Ethiopian since acquiring a Swedish citizenship you know. You said yourself in one edit summary that "you are either ethiopian or swedish". If nationality equals citizenship, then that can obviously not be true. How is it then not a good compromise to have the initial sentence say international, if it's out of the question to write Ethiopian-Swedish, similar to Kenyan-American in the case of Bernard Lagat? If it works in the Yamilé Aldama article, why not here? Regards, Häxhammaren (talk) 15:00, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would support the current version. If anything to keep the calm :) I feel one big ego has been hurt.. and I am not interested in keeping this child play going. Nice compromise. Cheers.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:58, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Just for future reference Häxhammaren. You can come a long way with being polite because at the present you have a very "attacking" tone towards those you discussing with. I have tried to reason with you but instead you are throwing tantrums and accusations around. People only respond to you in the same tone that you respond to them. And throwing tantrums and being angry when you do not get your own way is never either acceptable or productive. I have tried to keep the discussion in focus while you have began again and again to accuse me of several "injustices" that you precieve. I hope you can feel calmer now with the solution to the problem and move on, as I can see this has been for life or death for you personally. Best wishes to you!--BabbaQ (talk) 18:08, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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