Talk:Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska)

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Visual arts: Public art

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Article title

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia's manual of style says, "It is generally better to disambiguate by the artist's name than by medium, as there may be other paintings or sculptures of the same name by other artists. If the artist painted several works with the same, or very similar, titles, add the location of the work if it is in a public collection. For example, Annunciation (van Eyck, Washington), as van Eyck painted several Annunciations." Should this article be moved to Abraham Lincoln (French, Nebraska State Capitol) or Abraham Lincoln (French, Lincoln, Nebraska)? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:18, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go with the Lincoln, Nebraska option. Carptrash (talk) 00:31, 27 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Randy Kryn: Since you weighed in on the 1920 statue, what do you think this one should be called? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:10, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Ham II: Curious what you think as well. FYI, this is related to the ongoing discussion at Abraham Lincoln (1920 statue). ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:38, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PC78: Making you aware of this discussion since you commented on the other. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:12, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska), to retain the full name of the statue, and per above, brevity, it fits titling criteria, and it has a Bruce-Springsteeny song title ring to it. Since this title would be a redirect, few would get lost trying to find the page. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:54, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need to give serious thought to whether public sculptures should have a different naming convention from other artworks at WP:VAMOS, prioritising location over artist's name for the sake of greater recognisability. I think Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska) is the best title of the ones that have been suggested, but given that recent move requests have resulted in the article titles Statue of Mahatma Gandhi (Houston) and Statue of Mahatma Gandhi (San Francisco), should we not be considering Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska)? Pinging Johnbod and Necrothesp for their thoughts. Ham II (talk) 19:31, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ham II, I'm certainly not opposed to a group move discussion. I was trying to do these one at a time to get a sense of whether or not we were still following the UK vs US standards. There's definitely inconsistency with "statue of XXX (location)", "statue of XXX, location", and "subject name" (with out without disambiguation). I'm not sure about the best way to proceed, but I can certainly slow down the number of move proposals in the meantime. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:28, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please let's stop the wholesale moves of statues away from their real names. These Lincoln statues pages are going along fine, with the names understandable and brief. No need to add the burdensome "Statue of..." designation to statues already well-known by their present names. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:47, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Where can we have this discussion about naming conventions in general? @Ham II: You've done a marvelous job at summarizing inconsistencies and following related discussions for some time now, here and across various talk pages. Not to put work on your plate, but might you be willing to pick an appropriate venue (WP:VAMOS or otherwise), briefly summarize our collective concerns, and see if we can get a wider range of editors to weigh in? If you're not interested, I'm certainly willing to take a first stab, but I honestly feel you'd be better at this. Also open to collaborating if you want to work on something in a draft space before presenting to the community. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:59, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Another Believer: Thanks for this. I'm happy to start a request for comment at WT:VAMOS, but it'll have to wait a week or so as I'm having a busy period IRL. I see where you're coming from re "US and UK conventions", but I think we first need to tackle whether it's valid to have those two conventions, and the RFC would be the place for that. I'll also need to clean up the categorisation of public statues so that I can get a sense of the full picture outside the areas where I usually edit; I've started to do this with the subcats of Category:Statues of Presidents of the United States. Ham II (talk) 10:57, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ham II: Thanks for offering to put something together, and no rush! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:36, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. VAMOS does not really address this situation & I think it should. I think the best venue is either VAMOS, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts or possibly Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Public Art, though that seemed pretty quiet these days. Johnbod (talk) 01:50, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I'm going to go ahead and archive this discussion in an attempt to centralize discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Visual_arts#Naming_conventions_for_public_statues. Please start a new discussion for one specific to this statue. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 05:36, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 11 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved to Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska). TonyBallioni (talk) 05:31, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Abraham Lincoln (1912 statue) → Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska) – Disambiguation based on location, not year, to avoid potential confusion with other statues of Lincoln created in 1912. Similar ongoing discussion at Abraham Lincoln (1920 statue). --Another Believer _(Talk) 17:33, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds reasonable, Abraham Lincoln (Nebraska State Capitol) could also work. --89.153.64.16 (talk) 20:29, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per prior discussion and comments. This name uses the real name of the statue with a descriptor which fits all of the naming criteria. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:25, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning support

Might prefer Abraham Lincoln (Nebraska State Capitol) avoiding repetition of "Lincoln"

--SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support per other discussions. Johnbod (talk) 01:45, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska), our standard form for public commemorative statuary. The proposed title makes no sense whatsoever. See Talk:Statue of Mahatma Gandhi (Houston) and Talk:Statue of Mahatma Gandhi (San Francisco) for recently closed similar discussions. -- Necrothesp (talk) 07:50, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing broken here or elsewhere, and no need to burden these pages with "our standard form" of changing the names of artworks to generic titles. This is an encyclopedia, and Wikipedia's Abraham Lincoln statue collection has been doing fine, the titles have had no complaints or confusion that I recall, and these RMs should clear up location and year questions, as proposed, and not lump all the named artworks into a standard descriptor. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:20, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is. This is a statue of Abraham Lincoln. It is not Abraham Lincoln himself or another Abraham Lincoln who lives or lived in Lincoln, Nebraska, as the proposed title implies. My comments about common usage at Talk:Mohandas Gandhi (Patel) are also relevant here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not Abraham Lincoln himself. It is an artwork depicting Lincoln. There are many thousands of articles about notable paintings which are titled per person and then either the location or artist. This is no different, and keeps the original name of the artwork which seems important in the context of an encyclopedia. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:14, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The common name, in both Wikipedia and real life, for statues depicting people is "statue of...". There is a world of difference between a painting with a unique title and a commemorative statue of an individual. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:57, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would also support Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska) as the best option here. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:27, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose the originally proposed move. The title implies the article is about a person called “Abraham Lincoln” who lives or lived in Lincoln, Nebraska. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:39, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SelfieCity, What about Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska)? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:59, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I support that option. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 15:03, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I submitted the move request and would be fine with Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska) as well. Sorry for any confusion -- discussion further above shows editors will be having a wider discussion about statue naming conventions in the near future. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:23, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that "Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, Nebraska)" is where we are going to end up and it's okay with me. Carptrash (talk) 18:05, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.