Talk:Alan Ball Jr.

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	Sports portal This article is supported by the sports and games work group (assessed as High-importance).

Football: American & Canadian / England / Hong Kong / Arsenal High‑importance

	Association football portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Association football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the American and Canadian soccer task force (assessed as Low-importance).
	English football portal This article is supported by the English football task force (assessed as High-importance).
	This article is supported by the Hong Kong football task force (assessed as Low-importance).
	This article is supported by the Arsenal task force (assessed as Mid-importance).

Greater Manchester Mid‑importance

	Greater Manchester portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greater Manchester, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greater Manchester on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Greater ManchesterWikipedia:WikiProject Greater ManchesterTemplate:WikiProject Greater ManchesterGreater Manchester articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

England Mid‑importance

	England portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

[[Blackpool F.C.#Hall of Fame|Hall of Fame]] The anchor (#Hall of Fame) is no longer available because it was deleted by a user before.

Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

As Blackpool manager

Roy Calley's book states that he took over at Blackpool towards the end of the 1979-80 season, which is reflected in the article, yet his start date in the sources I've seen is July 1980, which is after the end of that season. A correction is likely needed to his start date if a reliable source can be found. - Dudesleeper · Talk 09:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee 17:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Death

From watching the BBC, I think he died on April 25th, not 24th. (Lawrie McMenemy received a phone call about 5 a.m. this morning [25th] saying he'd died). Peter Harriman 07:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say you're right. The ambulance wasn't called to his house until 12:15am Tuesday night/Wednesday morning so he couldn't have been pronounced dead until after 12:15am, technically making it Wednesday the 25th April. He may well have passed away on the Tuesday (we don't know the details) but for the sake of actual facts, his death certificate will read the 25th April. I've already edited the article. As a further note, TheFA.com have a book of condolences on their site listing the date of death as the 25th April. 172.189.152.116 03:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since we cannot be certain whether he actually died before midnight (and therefore on the night of Tuesday 24th rather than the morning of Wednesday 25th) it is better to simply state that he was pronounced dead in the morning, in line with what 172.189.152.116 remarks above. I have adjusted the sentence accordingly. 82.153.104.84 03:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article structure

Does it make sense to split out his club career from his international career? Now we jump from him making his debut at Blackpool to being bought by Everton after 1966, skipping over the whole World Cup 66 and Ball's development as an player, which is buried further down the article. Catchpole 11:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Third 1966 Cup Winner to die

"He is the third member of the 1966 World Cup winning team to lose his life." - is this sentence really necessary? Are we going to keep adding a line like this for each when the fourth, fifth, etc, dies? Do we really keep a "tally" of deaths in this way (eg, cast members of movies and radio or TV series', sports team members, and so on)? I would say no to all those, and suggest there's no need for any reference of this kind... - 82.153.104.84 03:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've deleted this as it's not even true - the only other player who has died is Bobby Moore, although Alf Ramsey, the team manager, is also dead. As my edit summary says, this sentence was irrelevant. Daemonic Kangaroo 04:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But, 14 years later, it is suddenly now relevant? It would be trivial, even with a source. Seasider53 (talk) 15:42, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Snide comments

It is absolutely disgraceful that people keep on filling out profiles of football players with comments about their clubs being sh*t. Grow up or stop editing Wikipedia! I'll remove the lines I've found on this and other profiles PRasmussen (talk) 09:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

Examples:

"At Everton, Ball settled into what became regarded as his generation's best midfield trio"
"Ball was instrumental in the team"
"Ball remained one of the few quality players in the Arsenal side"
"... it was clear new manager Terry Neill wanted to take the club in a new direction"
"Though England as a team emerged collectively heroic from the tournament, Ball was one of many players regarded as an individual success, especially as he was one of the more inexperienced charges with no proven record at the very highest level. Indeed, he, Geoff Hurst and Martin Peters emerged with enormous credit and eternal acclaim from the competition - and all of them were still only in single figures for caps won by the time they were named in the team for the final against West Germany."
"The 100,000 crowd at Wembley witnessed a magnificent personal performance from Ball"

And, saving the best for last:

"Somehow, this instilled extra bounce into Ball's play and the image of his continuous running round the Wembley pitch, socks round his ankles, is one of the most enduring of the occasion"

- Dudesleeper talk 23:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can't really see why these should be questioned under NPOV. Looking at these extracts, they seem to reflect the general opinion of various writers and footballers who have written about these occasions. For example, I've never seen any article that suggested Ball didn't put in a massive performance in the World Cup Final or query whether he was worthy of his award of Man of the Match. Hyperman 42 (talk) 00:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In which case, add the citation to the article. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 08:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Man of the match?

I don't believe that Man of the Match awards were regularly made in 1966, even informally. If so I think it would be more accurate to say that it is generally agreed that he was the best player on the field. Otherwise, can someone offer a contemporary citation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.114.221 (talk) 22:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unless someone can come up with a proper citation this should not be mentioned in the lead paragraph at all. This should merely be a summary of the most important facts in the article, so I have deleted this claim entirely. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 05:12, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds reasonable that it was an unofficial accolade, though widely agreed. Bobby Charlton in his autobiography "My England Years" states "man of the match Alan Ball", but again that may be his personal opinion rather than an official award - though obviously his views should carry strong weight! Agree that stronger evidence would be needed to include this in the lead paragraph. Hyperman 42 (talk) 23:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of neutrality/NPOV/POV tag

This tag was dated April 2009 and there does not seem to have been any discussion on it for several months, and it was questioned at the start whether it was justified. I would suggest that there is no strong support and that the tag should now be removed. The questions may have been more on the wording chosen by earlier pagewriters rather than a feeling of strong bias. Obviously if there are differing views, please discuss below. I would suggest that the references tag might also be considered for removal, as additional citations have been added since the tag was placed in September 2008. Hyperman 42 (talk) 23:21, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Alan Ball Jr.. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090227183140/http://testwoodbaptist.org/football/roger.html to http://testwoodbaptist.org/football/roger.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:10, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Alan Ball Jr.. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100612154323/http://www.bsaweb.info/HOF60.aspx to http://www.bsaweb.info/HOF60.aspx

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Alan Ball Jr.. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:15, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Alan Ball Jr.. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:12, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Birth and early career with Blackpool (subsection of Club career)

The first paragraph which covers his early life to school leaving stage is totally uncited and I have presently put a citation need tag at its end.

I do have citeable information to offer, from newspaper The Shropshire Star from 10 February 1965, report titled Alan Ball, the lad from Oswestry, which I was about to add, which would make the information on the start of his playing career as presently given questionable as it dates it to Ashton United. In the report, Alan stated he owed the development of his playing skill to the time he was a schoolboy at Oswestry Boys' High School and his father was then managing Oswestry Town, he reveals he played (at would be youth level) with the club. He states he trained and played with the [Oswestry Town] team twice a week and followed them to every game. [Ball said] "I owe my success to my father and that stay in Oswestry". At the time of the report, he was back in Shropshire training with the England World Cup squad at the National Sports Centre in Lilleshall.

Clearly his schooling in Oswestry preceded his entry to Farnworth Grammar, the school he left. I also question that while at Farnworth he was signing and playing for WOLVERHAMPTON Wanderers - is this a confusion? (Wolves don't appear in his infobox playing history.)

If somebody could insert citations to the information already here - what about, for example, from his later autobiography? - then I could introduce the information I today found. (I have not read the autobiography myself so don't know if he mentions his Oswestry years in it.)Cloptonson (talk) 20:05, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Blackpool again

Ball certainly did not return to Blackpool in February 1980 as he was still playing for, and captaining Southampton on 23 February 1980 as documented here…

https://www.11v11.com/matches/coventry-city-v-southampton-23-february-1980-85166/

There is also footage of a game covered on BBC Match Of The Day between Southampton and West Brom dated 1st March 1980 in which it is mentioned Ball will leave Southampton for good “in a few weeks time” https://you-tu.be/Pu-hDD8tQn0?si=S3Hckydq_3qYhPao remove the hyphen from you-tu 82.25.242.123 (talk) 21:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The possible error is mentioned in the first section of this page, posted just the 17 years ago now. Seasider53 (talk) 02:13, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]