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Confused

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After reading this article I still don't know what an "Islamic bicycle" looks like or even if they exist other than in the minds of certain religious leaders. I also agree with the author below...bicycle riding was probably considered modest by many differenct religions in the past and maybe even currently. A fair handling of the topic would include this information as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.113.140.64 (talk) 09:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Further articles needed

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May I suggest that there ought to be (in the interests of equal treatment of all religions in our society where diversity and equality are highly valued) articles on Christian bicycles (presumably in the form of a cross), Buddhist bicycles (which presumably take us into various states of Nirvana), Hindu bicycles (different designs for different castes) and Jewish bicycles (I am unsure how that one could be different).

Renaming

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I think this is more about "Bicycle and Islam" or "...in Islam" than Islamic bicycle. I think we should rename this article.--PetarM (talk) 09:17, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree on that. Morten7an (talk) 10:58, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Update needed

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As stated above I support the suggestion to rename the article. And after the last turn of events in Saudia Arabia, I think the article needs updating. It seems that women are now allowed to cycle for transport. The ban on women cycling was aparrently lifted some months ahead of the ban on women driving cars. And motorbikes. Hpowever Amnesty International points out that the rationale for lifting the ban was economical, to get more women into the work force. And that those fighting for lifting the ban on driving are still in jail. Moreover the guardian rules for women is still in place, so fathers and husbands will ban their dauhters and wives to cycle. Motorbike ban lifted | Saudi women in Jeddah embrace change and the bicycle - can cycle in public Morten7an (talk) 11:12, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This page certainly needs a rename - current title sounds as though it should be discussing a particular type of bicycle, modified for Islamic reasons.
Perhaps 'Islamic attitudes towards cycling', for consistency with e.g. Islamic attitudes towards science - which is a redirect for Science and Islam, so 'Cycling and Islam' could by the same token be a redirect to 'Islamic attitudes towards cycling'. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:31, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Bookku (talk) 08:54, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Popular Culture in Asia: Memory, City, Celebrity. United Kingdom, Palgrave Macmillan, 2013. Page 151 (about Malaysia)
  • Women and Islam in Muslim Societies. Netherlands, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Development Cooperation Information Department, 1994. Page 53 (About Bangladesh)
Bookku (talk) 11:49, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bookku (talk) 12:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Rename discussion 2

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This is just tentative discussion, as part of WP:RFCBEFORE and not an RfC in itself. Before going for RfC I will prefer to expand the article so users will have better idea to take call. So pl don't be in hurry to start RfC but welcome to express primary opinions 'on suitable names' if you have not expressed in earlier discussion.

Renaming suggestions up til now:


Bookku (talk) 09:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've replied in the 'Update needed' thread above: to be honest, I don't think this is a controversial question, as there are no opinions on this page against a rename, so would suggest you just go ahead per WP:BEBOLD and choose one - if someone disputes the new title, that would be a good time to go to RfC.
There are a few others pages entitled 'Islamic views on...' or 'Islamic attitudes towards...', which are usually redirects for 'X and Islam' (see e.g. Islamic attitudes towards science, which redirects Science and Islam), so WP:CONSIST would point in favour of that. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I dispute any rename. The AfD discussion included a number of reliable sources discussing the Islamic bicycle as a concept directly and not some broader article on Women's cycling and Islam. That article can still be made, of course, but this specific article subject is still notable. Here's the sources from that discussion:
  • "Peddling religion: Why secular academics fret about an "Islamic bicycle"". The Economist. September 15, 2012. Retrieved December 20, 2022.
  • "'Islamic bike' proposed by Turkish scholars". Hürriyet Daily News. September 14, 2012. Retrieved December 20, 2022.
  • "طراحی دوچرخه ویژه زنان در ایران" [Bicycle design for women in Iran]. BBC Persian (in Persian). May 17, 2007. Retrieved December 20, 2022.
  • Tremblay, Pinar (September 29, 2015). "Pedal power gets Turkish makeover". Al-Monitor. Retrieved December 20, 2022.
  • Lloyd, Sophie (October 25, 2016). "A Woman's Right to Bike". Ms. Retrieved December 20, 2022.
  • Mehrabi, Ehsan (October 22, 2020). "مخالفت با دوچرخه سواری زنان در ایران؛" دختر تهرانی مثل دختر چینی نیست"" [Opposition to women cycling in Iran; "A Tehran girl is not like a Chinese girl"]. BBC Persian (in Persian). Retrieved December 20, 2022.
  • "تصویب ساخت دوچرخه اسلامی ویژه بانوان" [Approval of the production of Islamic bicycles for women]. Asriran (in Persian). February 26, 2018. Retrieved December 20, 2022.
  • "تصویر طرح پیشنهادی دوچرخه اسلامی بانوان" [The image of the proposed design of the women's Islamic bicycle]. Tabnak.ir (in Persian). November 5, 2011. Retrieved December 20, 2022.
As you can see, not only is there direct discussion of the Islamic bicycle as a real design, it was actually implemented in some regions in 2018, with varying design concepts. SilverserenC 13:47, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose it's much of a muchness: at the moment, this article isn't the article you describe, though it certainly could be with some more work; equally, at the moment it isn't the article it purports to be in the title, though it equally could be with a little work. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 13:55, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which cite says what was implemented in 2018 please? (cannot read Farsi - relying on Google Translate) Chidgk1 (talk) 15:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New Title

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New title provides a more accurate description of the topic and a broader expansion of the article AKA how the bike impacted the Islamic world/bike usage currently in Islamic nations etc etc LegalSmeagolian (talk) 20:39, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.aajenglish.tv/news/30306594 - protest against cycling camp
https://www.esr.ie/index.php/TrinityWomensReview/article/view/2174/646 - great student journal article I plan to read later LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:20, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Would also be great to get some users from WikiProject Islam to expand upon Islamic law as it relates to horseback riding and cycling, as I am not an expert in interpretation of Islamic law, such as @NZDF1985 or someone who can read Arabic such as @Idell (apologies if tagging editors is a Faux pas but thought some more experienced editors could be useful) LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's some relevant hadith and discussion on women riding camels, too, as I recall. HLHJ (talk) 00:28, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is it published in any RS? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hadith are definately published in RS, even the lousy ones, but I'm guessing you meant the discussion. The existence of discussion has been covered for cars, at least;[1] I'll have to see if I can find something bike-specific. HLHJ (talk) 18:10, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison to horse riding

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Some comparative refs to horse riding by women (for and against) seem to come up

Bookku (talk) 11:35, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the restrictions/attitudes for biking arose from the same principles, would be useful to do some research into the law/traditions and how they transferred over from each mode of transport LegalSmeagolian (talk) 15:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes you are right. One RS seem to be available more RS better the coverage. Bookku (talk) 17:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
According to Title: "From "mother of the world" to the "third world" and back again, The harmonization cycle between Islam and the global economy Author:Christopher Stuart Work:Editor: Backer, Larry Catá (2007) Carolina Academic Press Harmonizing Law in an Era of Globalization Convergence, Divergence, and Resistance. page 285 , Taqlid one form of Islamic jurisprudence, inferred that, " Quran prohibits women from riding horses, horses are like bicycles in that you have to mount them, Automobiles, in turn, are like bicycles in that they are a form of transportation. Therefore women may not drive a Car' Bookku (talk) 10:05, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Milani, Farzaneh. Words, Not Swords: Iranian Women Writers and the Freedom of Movement. United States, Syracuse University Press, 2011. page 3
Bookku (talk) 10:08, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Religion, Culture and Sport in the Lives of Young Muslim Women, Symeon Dagkas ISBN: 9780203121375
  • Outsiders: Muslim Women and Olympic Games – Barriers and Opportunities Gertrud Pfister
Bookku (talk) 10:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alon Raab

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@LegalSmeagolian You placed template who|date=June 2020 after name of Alon Raab. Since another user used their citation in another cycling related article I just simply followed there on. According to https://www.womensinternationalstudycenter.org/alon-raab ".. A cyclist since age three, Alon Raab is a writer, activist and teacher in the department of Religious Studies at University of California, Davis. ..".


Is there any problem in using their citation or you are expecting rephrasing of the sentence with some intro info about the author in sentence ? Secondly you put 'June 2020'.


Bookku (talk) 05:28, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks sorry I am new to this - have no doubt they are a good source on the topic. I'll rephrase the sentence today LegalSmeagolian (talk) 16:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

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@Professor Penguino Thanks for prompt feed back. Lead is usually supposed to be brief synopsis of rest of the article. In the lead compulsion on referencing are not too strict since it is borrowing from rest of well sourced text. Hence I attempted a lead fresh, but same I can not shift in any other section since that would be against various Wikipedia policies . Either restore previous version lead, write again a new lead or update my most recent lead. Let me know your feed back. We will wait for feedback from @LegalSmeagolian since they too are actively editing the article. Bookku (talk) 03:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should try to keep your old lead until a new lead is finished, as it touches upon many of the points made in the article, despite being a bit jumbled and needing a rewrite. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Professor Penguino (talk) 19:39, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@LegalSmeagolian Thanks for updating lead and article, sequence order wise it looks much nicer now. Though there are few areas for further discussion and contemplation.
  • ".. Bicycling in Islam is a topic of heated discussion in both Sunni and Shia Islam, primarily regarding the practice by Muslim women. ..". If okay for grammar Try like this ".. Women's bicycling in Islam is a topic of heated discussion in both Sunni and Shia Islam. ..". Though article will remain focused on Women's cycling we have not considered that in the title. IMO that needs further discussion at some point.
  • Pl. see Talk:Women in Islam/Archive 2#Difference between Muslim .... and Islamic .... ? Media takes our attention more towards Iran and Saudi Arabia also extreme orthodoxy and that leads to focus on first sentence in the article. Practically if one includes Muslim women in India to Turkey, Egypt, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, vast population of Muslim women do not have necessarily legal restriction but other kind of barriers. Experiences in lived religion seem much diverse than media emphasized narrative. Can we strive to balance as much as possible within realms of WP policies.
  • One new subsection is titled "Secular response" I do not have issue with content in the subsection. But the same views may be shared by liberal conservatives and Islamic feminists too with or without being secular .
  • Though I have shared above points, also quite a few RS content is still to be added, I am over all quite okay with direction and improvements we are bringing in. Thanks for your all the proactive collaborative support.
Bookku (talk) 09:55, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you as well! I will respond to your points in order! IMO we should expand topic to men, but that likely should be a decision with more parties involved. And yes I was just reading an article about women's cycling in indonesia - cultural//religious barriers are just as important as legal ones. and very true, maybe "Critical response" is better for that section. You have been of great help with this article! (talk) 01:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Men! Most probably I do not foresee likely hood of articles Cycling in Buddhism or Cycling in Christianity for the reason there is no notably positive or negative relationship in between Cycling and other religions. I do not see any debate Islamic or un-Islamic surrounding Muslim male cyclists like any other average non-Muslim male cyclist . Still there can be cases where Muslim male cyclist supporting or opposing participation of Muslim women cyclist, and few men traveling for Haj on bicycle. Let us see what other users say. Bookku (talk) 06:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Critical response" for section heading seems okay, one option can be 'Liberal response' Bookku (talk) 07:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many religious denominations hold annual Blessing of the Bicycles ceremonies, where they sprinkle holy water on cycles and pray over them, often with a bicycle-centric sermon and a commemoration for cycling dead. It's based on older ceremonies for boats. This is the Cathedral of St. John the Divine.
Some Christian religious groups, such as Amish groups, do have notable theological views on bicycles, such as eschewing gearing and using kickbikes (see article for details). There were widespread gender-based criticisms of bikes when they first came out; Christian clerics of the time inveighed against bicycles for religious reasons, too, in terms indistinguishable from modern Muslim clerics[2][3] (apart from words like "church" and "iman", the quotes are literally interchangable). More recently, I've heard Christians and Buddhists (and, actually, Muslims) advocate bicycles for religious reasons, too, relating to the morality of minimalism, ahimsa, stewardship of the planet, etc..[4] Frankly, pick a point of view and a religion, and you can probably find a cleric who supports it. This is why I said we need data on actual practice! It might also be a good reason for a broad-concept article scope on religion and cycling.
I think we can't really adequately discuss womens' cycling without any context of men's cycling. Knowing that only 0.5% of women in a city cycle regularly needs context; if only two percent of men cycle, then we'd say "In [city], 1.25% say they cycle "regularly", and one in five cyclists is female". This is presumably somewhere where the topography, climate, poor cycle infrastructure, a broad cultural lack of skills etc. discourages cycling. If 50% of men commute by bike and 0.5% of women, that's quite different. And even a tacit religious opinion about men cycling in Islam, an implicit "Men cycling? What about them? It's women who need the social control!" is a religious opinion about cycling.
Haj content sound great! I expanded the section on Iran. It's complicated... HLHJ (talk) 04:39, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly article might be better expanded to discuss cycling and religion? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:38, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Truly there are couple of academic sources deal briefly about cycling and religion (but those do not seem too many either) and behavioral similarities among orthodoxies. But would it not be better to cover such general discussion @ Bicycling and feminism and Cycling#Equality with summary from this article to there?
What other users would say ? Bookku (talk) 15:07, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the content I just wrote on Iran, I think it might fit better in a "Cycling in Iran" article. If I wrote something like that for every Muslim-majority country, plus content on Muslim women elsewhere, the text would be unwieldy and repetitive and not make for a good article. I think content organized around the arguments might work better: a section on social-mobility based arguements, a section on modesty-based arguments, and so on. Since the arguments are the same regardless of religion, clumping by topic instead of by religion makes sense.
Whatever we do, I strongly agree that the Bicycling and feminism needs some religion-related content. Cycling and religion would be a good scope for a balanced broad-concept article. Those two titles would cover the content scope, but if they get over-long, a specific Women cycling and religion-scope article would be sane, too; we certainly have enough content (tho my suggested title is pretty bad). Broader-concept articles, like cycling and feminism and cycling and religion, would stand a much better chance of forming a new social-context section of Template:Cycling. HLHJ (talk) 18:30, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Women cyclist club in saudi

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@ LegalSmeagolian I came across this news about Saudi women's cyclist club. https://www.vice.com/en/article/wj4yvz/inside-saudi-arabias-first-womens-only-cycling-club Requesting your inputs how far that can be included in the article. Bookku (talk) 10:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

DYK possible?

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The large portion of the article is freshly written. IDK that will suffice 5 times increase in character length though rules are given @ WP:DYK personally I find that technical and complicated. It would be better if some one could guide on that. Following two sentences seem first time on WP. More may be suggested.

Bookku (talk) 10:24, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Theleekycauldron (talk) 15:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
Fatma Aliye Topuz
Fatma Aliye Topuz

5x expanded by LegalSmeagolian (talk) and Bookku (talk). Nominated by Bookku (talk) at 17:32, 12 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Bicycling in Islam; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • @LegalSmeagolian and Bookku: Could you please explain how you arrived at 5x expansion? I am not able to replicate your calculations using the DYK tool, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. (If the article is eligible, I would like to have the article run on International Women's Day if possible...but I do have a few very specific comments about things to fix first.) Cielquiparle (talk) 16:22, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Cielquiparle: Sorry I am not technical enough for exact counting. But we rescued article from AFD claims, renamed and almost WP:TNT new start over. In number of sentences terms we may have retained at the most five sentences from version prior to 7 Feb, We added almost 30 new sentences. If you do not count bibliography part then new sentences are 5 times. Bibliography too was added by me in December.
Since it is almost afresh I thought to present it over to this forum. we wish to respect rules and guidance. Bookku (talk) 18:36, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article is new enough (expansion began on February 7 and was submitted on February 12). Although the way in which the 5x expansion was calculated did not, strictly speaking, adhere to the rules, based on the explanation given above, I see that the "original" article had 620 characters (105 words) of "salvageable prose" and by February 12, it had expanded to 4,795 characters (777 words). (The article is now at 5,786 characters (948 words) of prose.) On this basis, we can say that the article is long enough (expanded more than 5 times), and I would just ask that next time, you read the rules and install the DYK check tool so there is no uncertainty or confusion. (Basically, it's cleaner to delete all the prose you are not planning to keep, the day before you start expanding.) The article is well sourced throughout, with inline citations, and a lot of care has gone into trying to maintain a detached and neutral tone about a very sensitive and controversial subject. Earwig says copyvio is unlikely, although I do have one immediate concern which I will explain below. The QPQ is done. ALT0 is OK. So what is left is to discuss the other hooks and address some related issues:
1) Please minimize the text quoted in Footnote 2 (the Raab chapter). It is too long and will raise flags down the line. I understand maybe you just included it to help the DYK reviewer, but we don't need it anymore, so please only include 2 to 3 key sentences at most.
2) ALT1 is not approved, as I was unable to verify this fact based on the source. While it's fine to just discard the hook if you don't want to fix it, the corresponding claim in the article still needs to be fixed. The original text (which is easily accessed through Wikipedia Library) says Follow the Women bike tour (followthewomen.com), from Beirut, Lebanon, to the Palestinian city of Bethlehem. The cyclists, whose ranks included women in long sleeves and head scarves, and women who'd learned to ride just to join the trip, rode with queen Rania Al-Abdullah of Jordan as well as Syrian first lady Asma Akhras Al-Assad, crossed the Jordan River (which was neither deep nor wide, they reported), shared meals with locals and visited refugee camps... Many of the Arab women ended their ride early... The reason I object to the current wording of ALT1 is that it makes it sound like both Queen Rania and First Lady Asma al-Assad rode together all the way from Beirut to Bethlehem, when in fact, based on other sources it sounds like they probably only joined a portion of the ride, because as ride sponsors, they were also responsible for hosting and officially receiving the cyclists. I would advise either finding a reliable source that explains their role a bit more clearly and modifying the article accordingly, or simplifying the sentence in the article so that it sticks closer to what the "Pedaling for Peace" article actually says (that the Rania and Asma "rode with" the women, without implying they both rode with the women the whole way).
3) In ALT2, the word "powerful" sounds non-neutral in wikivoice, so it needs to be reworded somehow – e.g. simply striking the word "powerful" out, or using wording to make it clear that there is a specific scholar you are naming in the article who says it's a "powerful metaphor" (e.g. "is viewed as a powerful metaphor...").
If you could please address these issues ASAP, I am happy to approve the hook for DYK. Many thanks for your hard work in rethinking and reworking this insightful article following the AfD discussion. Cielquiparle (talk) 19:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @Bookku:. (Also edited my own copy above.) Cielquiparle (talk) 19:49, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cielquiparle Many thanks for valuable inputs. We shall ping you as we accomplish suggested improvements. Although Alt1 and Alt2 are not must- in the article and in DYKs too I have tried to present diversity across regions in Muslim women's cycling practices and there by avoiding stereotype.
1) I have trimmed ref note a bit, I am also contemplating to split in feminist view and orthodox view and look for further scope of trimming as required.
2) For Alt1 I shall request @LegalSmeagolian and Ipigott: to help out to avoid grammar mistakes from my side when article is soon about to go for DYK. I suppose for Alt1 more sources may be available in Jordan and Syrian Arabic news media, but availability of such sources shall take it's own time.
3) About Alt2 metaphor of cycle in photographs has been discussed by author Raab too but without using word metaphor. Besides both the movies have been explored favorably by multiple academic authors though I could not spare enough time on all of those. I am removing word 'powerful' from 'powerful metaphor' as of now as suggested. Idk if word 'substantial' will be enough for toning down.
Just now saving in bit of hurry. I shall work further a little while later.
Bookku (talk) 05:08, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Bookku: Thanks for your response. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Approving ALT0, ALT1, and ALT2. The current wordings of both ALT1 and ALT2 have been amended slightly to address concerns raised earlier (ALT1 says "took part in" instead of "took"; the word "powerful" has been removed from ALT2). The direct quote in the footnote has been split and shortened (though it could be shortened more, it is better than before). Additional sources and content have been added re: the Follow the Women bike tour. Happy to have this promoted for International Women's Day (8 March 2023, Prep Area 1) if possible. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith, the link created by you seem to go some where else. I suppose that needs to be WT:DYK#Bicycling in Islam Bookku (talk) 06:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, my bad. The WT link is the correct one, thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is just for record. I had discussed my views on some of the concerns expressed @ User talk:RoySmith/Archive 52#To clear the air. To be editorially neutral I will take their relevant concerns on article talk page for discussion after present round of article update by other users. Bookku (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update. Picking this back up now (working on article). Please don't close this nomination. Cielquiparle (talk) 17:32, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cielquiparle: any progress? BorgQueen (talk) 11:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I guess is the answer is "not much", as I see the orange tag is still there. BorgQueen (talk) 17:18, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rename discussion 3

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Previous to present title was changed as part of WP:Bold. Discussion for consensus remained to be completed. Issue of naming again raised @ DYK discussions so opening fresh discussion topic with all the important suggestions up til now. I shall add links to previous discussions a little latter as I get time.

  • Previous title:Islamic bicycle
  • Present title:Bicycling in Islam
  • Various suggestions received for rename:
  • Bicycle and Islam
  • Bicycle in Islam
  • Women cycling and Islam
  • Women's bicycling in Islam
  • Islamic views on women cycling
  • Women biking or bicycling in Muslim world
  • Women and bicycling in Islam
  • Bicycling and Islamic women
  • Islamic women and bicycling



Bookku (talk) 06:54, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How about just merging it into Bicycling and feminism? None of the coverage suggests that this should be a stand alone page. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As such article includes overarching academic sources for article to exist independently. BTW, Have you not checked top of the talk page? The article has already survived through two AFDs and one merger proposal. If you wish, Why not start a fresh discussion on notability and merger in separate section. Every time I am taking up rename topic it's getting diverted to some other topic. Bookku (talk) 08:06, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, a merger proposal where one participant doesn't understand what happens when you merge two articles and another who doesn't understand what feminism is. Thats all the participants besides the nominator. Just FYI this articles does not include overarching academic sources, would you care to present even one academic source which covers the overarching topic of Bicycling in Islam? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 08:14, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Bookku Support "Women and bicycling in Islam" with "Women and cycling in Islam" as second choice. Cielquiparle (talk) 08:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise 'Women and bicycling in Islam' seems best to me.Gugrak (talk) 10:03, 6 March 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd go for "Women and bicycling in Islam" too. PamD 12:29, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GNG tag removal

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I removed the recently added GNG tag - there're more than enough RS discussing this, and it's not the same as bicycling and feminism. I suggest that there may be a discussion to be had about a better name for the article though. Gugrak (talk) 08:29, 6 March 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:53, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We don't appear to have *any* sources which discuss Bicycling in Islam, we only appear to have coverage of Bicycling and Islam in the context of women's rights (feminism). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 08:33, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article is about women cycling in ..?

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@Fram Part of your edit summary (edit dif 1143230831) says ".. Article is about women cycling in Islamic countries, not about Bicycling in Islam .."

Vast number of Muslim women (cyclists) stay in secular countries that includes Turkey, some Central Asian countries, India and west too and not just Islamic countries. So is it okay for you to say ".. Article is about women cycling in Muslim world, .." or may be you want to describe differently.

I wish this discussion focuses on above aspect only. For any different aspects pl feel free to open another section or subsection.

Bookku (talk) 03:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The title of the article strongly suggests that it is about the religious Islamitic views about women cycling. The article contents are mainly about how different countries deal with women cycling, e.g. about Turkish bicycle rides, or "In Turkey, as of 2015, only 0.06% of adult women ride bikes to go shopping or to go to work." The article is unfocused or has an unclear scope, with the title and contents not really matching in many parts. Fram (talk) 08:26, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you would be okay with title 'women cycling in Islamic countries' then why don't you suggest the same in ongoing title discussion?
You concurred on example on Turkey. But my impression of Turkey is officially secular. So if we accept (assume) title 'women cycling in Islamic countries' some other user may turn up saying they are not Islamic country in true sense and hence information on Turkish women be removed. How do suggest to address that?
I request you to join ongoing title discussion. Bookku (talk) 09:10, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since we're not in a hurry anymore, I'm actively working on fixing the article. My strategy for this one is to go bottom up, so we're fixing the details first, and then making sure the summary matches what the details say. I think it's going to be ok and would ask that we not change the article title at this time. Cielquiparle (talk) 09:53, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article title has already changed, and your approach seems wrong. One needs to know what the article will be about, and then find sources and content about that topic. Not collecting somewhat related stuff and then finding a descriptive title and summary for it, which creates WP:COATRACK articles. Fram (talk) 09:57, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that is a problem, but don't worry, I do have a working thesis based on sources, but I don't want to fix it at the top until everything else is in place. Cielquiparle (talk) 10:02, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(And yes, it was an oversimplification of the method, obviously it's iterative. I actually think overly linear approaches in either direction can be bad.) Cielquiparle (talk) 10:07, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stats and more global coverage

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@HLHJ we are already aware of potential of improvement on these fronts as you rightly suggested in your edit. Actually we need more hands to contribute. Because in some geographies it's easy to identify sports woman as Muslim from their names but in many other cases not for an example in case of Albanian women cyclists it's tough to guess so we need users who know nuances to add such information. I have made few requests to users who usually work on such articles but frankly users from respective countries can do better. Bookku (talk) 04:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Chidgk1 You seem to have deleted the stats about usage of women's cycling in turkey for being under wrong section heading. Actually section name was changed inadvertently by a copy editor. Would it be okay for you to restore the same info by creating separate section for statistics.
Secondly information you added about Afghanistan is likely to be relating to times of Taliban regime then that should be mentioned, because in more liberal regimes women might have had lesser restrictions. Bookku (talk) 05:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objections to anyone changing headings or clarifying Afghanistan. However there are 2 other reasons for not putting back that statistic. Firstly it is not for Turkey as a whole - it is just for one city. Secondly it is not clear how it is connected to Islam. Having said that anyone, man or woman, riding a bike to the shops in Istanbul would be wise to pray for their safety beforehand, as you know if you have every tried it! Chidgk1 (talk) 06:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See our job is to present available statistics. Article focus is basically focused on "women cycling in Muslim world". Users choosing title with word 'in Islam' do not realize kind objections come up. Some one suggested title "women cycling in Islamic countries" but some one might deny Turkey being an Islamic country altogether. One solution is either we adopt or redirect title 'women cycling in Muslim world' to present article. Redirect is not a big thing and that will accomplish the scope required.
As about religious beliefs directly or through cultural influence do affect women in respective countries to varied extent. These statistics also can be just lower because more automobiles are available. As I said our job is to present statistics. That itself lead more research in future and future updates for better future. Bookku (talk) 08:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Bookku I am liking Women and cycling in Muslim world very much. It does provide a better description for where this article is headed. Cielquiparle (talk) 08:20, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am not in hurry. Let us see where the article heads. I hope you have noting kind of queries other users may raise. For me even a redirect would suffice to keep it as much inclusive as possible.

@Bookku:: "Because in some geographies it's easy to identify sports woman as Muslim from their names" Please don't ever do this. Unless a person has self-identified as belonging to a certain religion (by words, or by working in a religious function), we should never state that a person has religion X, no matter what their name is, which country they are from, what religion their parents had, or even what religion the government claims for their inhabitants. Fram (talk) 08:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Fram I am positively noting your point. Basically my line is same as yours.That is why I have not added many names because I could not confirm on my own. What my impression is word Islamic needs far more scrutiny. Where as in some is from Muslim world is broad enough to avoid judgement on one's religion and reduces chances of confusion. Bookku (talk) 09:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But this isn't a page about Muslim Women in sports, its a page about Women and bicycling in Islam. So why would you be doing that in the first place? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Horse Eye's Back I worked on the article with anticipation of broader scope anticipating title Women biking or bicycling in Muslim world. IMO a broader scope would have helped better balance and less stereotype. But that was not to happen and that is sort of okay for me.
I can understand quite a few users would prefer article getting merged in Bicycling and feminism. And sport activity getting merged in Muslim women in sport. Here point being missed is cycling is just not a sport but mode of transport too. May be I am failing in putting across this point better, but I more in mood of relenting. Rather than building indirect pressure a direct discussion on split and merge proposal would have been better.
While I shall continue encouraging other editors to work in the topic Women biking or bicycling in Muslim world through various available articles, but personally I am taking back seat for a while. I will request @Cielquiparle and @PamD to review various t/p discussions up til now and give their inputs if possible. Bookku (talk) 02:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Understood @Bookku but nevertheless it would be great if you could continue to monitor what is going on with this article. (I do have more content to add and plan to come back sooner rather than later with further fixes to the history section and lead.) Cielquiparle (talk) 09:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Refs

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Bookku (talk) 13:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bookku (talk) 08:31, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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