Talk:Bodhidharma

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about india[edit]

bodhidharaman was from tamil nadu and kung fu was found by an Indian person and mostly no people in India knows about bodhidharaman and even they don't follow kung fu......Chinese people continued to follow kung fu and we are not following kung fu even by being Indian's Abhay K. Shah (talk) 13:01, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Xi Sui Jing[edit]

Whatever it means to say "The Xi Sui Jing has been lost" there are people practicing Xi Sui Jing today. (Anyone interested should know, directing the flow of chi in such a powerful way is generally considered too risky to do without expert supervision and only taught when a person has trained their body enough to handle it).

In the "secret" 6th movement from Peter Kelder's famous book of 5 tibetan exercises, energy from the testicles is raised through the spine to the brain. Xi Sui Jing (Marrow/Brain Washing) may be practiced today in a version that uses this principle, demonstrating a tibetan influemce which may date this version to the 12th century at the earliest. This seems to be the version that Yang Jwing-Ming describes in his book (with a preface by Mantak Chia).

Yang Jwing-Ming is as much a scholar as a practioner and instructor and he describes the historical texts, which have only recently become known, that he uses as his source in his presentation of Marrow/Brain Washing. The introduction to his book can be browsed on his website.

One of the top results from a web search for Xi Sui Jing was from Anthony Korahais. He descibes it as a skill which can be applied to many movements, and doesn't mention a component of diverting sexual energy to the brain: http://flowingzen.com/5967/bone-marrow-cleansing-qigong/

The principle of chi flowing powerfully and being felt strongly in the bone marrow is well known in the internal martial arts like tai chi, where with correct practice, after some time it begins to occurs spontanously, without being sought by the practitioner.

And why not give the last word to the shaolin temple website, where an article written by "Shaolin Master Shi Yan Zhuo Head Master of the Greek Shaolin Temple Cultural Center" describes Xi Sui Jing as something being curently taught and practiced, eg:

"It exerts a real influence on the prevention and the improvement of chronic diseases such as the depression, gastritis acute or chronic, disease of the respiratory system or cardiovascular, weakness of the kidneys, pathology of the vertebrae, arthritis, impotence, etc. It is advised to practice it after having assimilated the "Yi Jin jing". "

and writes that the skill was not lost, just not known to many people, such as the scholars or practictioner who wrote the books quoted in this article. (Incidentally, Yang Jwing Ming also described it as "lost" in his book on Shaolin Kung Fu published in 1982.) For example:

"The Xi Sui Jing taught the Shaolin Monks how to use their own Qi to clean their bone marrow and strengthen their immune system, as well as how to nourish and energize the brain, helping them to attain Buddhahood. Because the Xi Sui Jing was hard to understand and practice, the training methods were passed down secretly to only a very few disciples in each generation of Shaolin Monks."

77.98.32.90 (talk) 13:51, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

PS: I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've given three sources of people teaching Xi Sui Jing, including the shoalin monastry http://www.shaolin.org.cn/templates/EN_T_newS_list/index.aspx?nodeid=297&page=ContentPage&contentid=10322.

Yang's book: www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/qigong/qigong_the_secret_of_youth . ISBN: 1-886969-84-1 77.98.32.90 (talk) 18:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

<<The original source mentioning the exercise, the Yijin Jing, states that it was "rarely seen", not "lost". Here is an English translation from Prof. Meir Shahar's wonderful book The Shaolin Monastery (2008):

After his nine years of meditation were completed, the master pointed the way to Nirvana. His remains were enshrined on Mt. Xionger [in Western Henan]. Then carrying one shoe he returned to the west. Later, the brick wall he faced in meditation was damaged by wind and rain. When the Shaolin monks repaired it, they discovered inside a metal case ... Hidden inside it were two scrolls, one titled Marrow Cleansing Classic (Xisui jing), the other titled Sinews Transformation Classic [Yijin Jing]...
The Marrow Cleansing Classic was handed over to Huike and along with his cassock and bowl became part of a secret transmission. In later generations it was rarely seen. Only the Sinews Transformation Classic remained as the cornerstone of the Shaolin Monastery, treasuring forever the master’s virtue (p. 166).
The problem is that Bodhidharma has no historical connection to either one of these texts or the exercises contained therein. This is because the Yijin Jing is traceable only to the 17th-century, hundreds of years after the monk is supposed to have lived. It contains two forged prefaces attributed to two famous Chinese generals of dynasties passed. They too have no historical connection to the text. This is extremely important as the first preface, attributed to Gen. Li Jing of the Tang, is the source of the claim that Bodhidharma created the exercises. Therefore, this is not reliable historical information that can be added to the article. It's more likely that the name Xisui jing was attached to a later daoyin exercise after the Yijin Jing became popular in the public eye. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:56, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but what you quoted apparently says that the Marrow/Brain Washing exercise was lost forever (regardless of what happened to a scroll which may or may not have existed):

<<The original source mentioning the exercise, the Yijin Jing, states that it was "rarely seen", not "lost". Here is an English translation from Prof. Meir Shahar's wonderful book The Shaolin Monastery (2008):[...]Hidden inside it were two scrolls, one titled Marrow Cleansing Classic (Xisui jing), the other titled Sinews Transformation Classic [Yijin Jing] [...]Only the Sinews Transformation Classic remained [...](p. 166).>>

I'll continued my contributions to the discussion over on the Yijin Jing talk page.77.98.32.90 (talk) 02:28, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

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What the cited references say[edit]

@Piledhighandeep: thanks for this correction! This little piece of pov-pushing was made at 16 october 2016; usually it's reverted at the spot; curious that this one slipped through. I've replaced your sentence "but researchers have concluded that he is either from" with the original sentence "giving either an origin from"; I'm not sure researchers have drwan definite clonclusion; they've pointed out that various places of origin are mentioned. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good! There is, I think, a possible social phenomenon here at play. On the one hand there is a vibrant living Buddhist community in the Indian subcontinent with an interest in remembering that region's important Buddhist heritage, while on the other hand there is no longer much of a Persian Buddhist community, and so, I think, the possible contributions of Persian Afghanistan and Central Asia to Buddhism will, without vigilant editors, tend to lose out. Piledhighandeep (talk) 06:05, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
By the way, any reason not to say Persian Central Asia? It seems that those sources supporting a Central Asian origin agree on localizing that origin to a Persian region thereof. Piledhighandeep (talk) 06:22, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Persian Central Asia? Pfoo... I don't know any more! I recall that "Persian" may be a catch-all phrase for central Asia, but I'd have to read the sources again to remember. Regarding the Buddhist community in India: this pov-pushing comes from Tamils, not Buddhists. Indian Buddhists have other concerns. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:40, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Iranian may be a better term. See this edit by PericlesofAthens, who may know more about this. See also History of Buddhism, especially Buddhist expansions, and also Sogdia and Turpan. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:05, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Interesting. It is probably impossible to determine whether someone came from the Buddhist Persian language communities along the Silk Road (such as Nava Vihara), or the Buddhist communities within the broader Iranian language family (language map), including Bactrian, Sogdian, and Saka (eg. Kingdom of Khotan), so I agree that the more inclusive term Iranian is better if understood in the linguistic sense, but I worry that "Iranian" might be misinterpreted as a less inclusive term, that is as denoting historical residents of the area that we now call Iran. Piledhighandeep (talk) 20:02, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I have more emphasized now the term "Western Regions"; readers can draw theirr own conclusions from that. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:48, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Looks nice. Piledhighandeep (talk) 00:30, 2 December 2016 (UTC)