Talk:Cross-border flag for Ireland

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Ireland (Rated Start-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon Cross-border flag for Ireland is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.

No Flag[edit]

Its a bit odd having an article called "Flag of island of Ireland", when the first line states, "There is no flag universally accepted as representing the entire island of Ireland." Why do we have an article on something that does not exist?

Wouldn't it be better to title this article "Flags of the island of Ireland"? Rockpocket 16:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

"Flags of the island of Ireland" might suggest List of Irish flags. Perhaps "Flags representing the island of Ireland": longwinded but descriptive and neutral. jnestorius(talk) 17:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Fine with me, I just think "flag" singular, is somewhat misleading given the content. Rockpocket 22:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
glad to see this point has already been made, saw a link to this page and wondered, not very encyclopedic, as an island does not have a flag or flags, at best this is a somewhat contrived article, I see made by carving out bits of "flag of Ireland", is it needed at all, or should these go back to being notes where they came from..? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Union flag[edit]

Traditional unionist: do you honestly believe there is anybody today who regards the Union Flag as representing the island of Ireland? It is an "Irish flag" in the same way as the flag of Ulster, or of a county council, or of Belfast Yacht club are Irish flags, i.e. it is a flag and it is Irish. It is not a "flag of the island of Ireland" in that nobody regards it as representing the island. Since partition (or at least since the Republic left the Commonwealth), nobody has regarded it as such. On the other hand, many people, rightly or wrongly, regard the tricolour as a symbol of the whole island. The "almost identical" legal status vis-a-vis the tricolour is irrelevant: legally speaking, none of the flags should be listed. The article is not about the law, it's about the practice. The article might do with a section on organisations that use [tricolour + union flag] or [tricolour + Ulster banner] or some other combination; but that's another question. jnestorius(talk) 00:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you have RS to support the above commentary?Traditional unionist (talk) 10:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
It does not require a source to state "nobody today uses the Union Flag to represent the island of Ireland" any more than it needs a reliable source to say "nobody today uses the Stars and Stripes to represent the island of Ireland". See negative proof. If you want to make an assertion to the contrary, it is up to you to make it explicitly and provide a source. Making it implicitly by reordering the sections without giving any source is not good enough. jnestorius(talk) 19:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
This is not a case of negative proof, you have stated that the tricolour IS a flag of the island, despite the fact that a tricolour is generally a flag associated with republics, but that the Union flag is not. The entire assertion needs a reference.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Why does this article exist?[edit]

Why would a geographic feature like an island (as opposed to a political entity of some description) have a flag? Does Mt. Everest have a flag - If it does, how did Mt. Everest choose it? Now, ask the same question substituting "island of Ireland" for "Mt. Everest". I think this article should be deleted as its pretty silly. Any support? Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't necessarily disagree. That is largly the basis for my opposition for the tricolour being at Flag of Ireland. WP has taken a decision on what the state will be called, and that should be replicated.Traditional unionist (talk) 22:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Obviously we disagree about the Flag of Ireland article but on a joke, re this "Article": One could imagine the Mountains of Mourne and the Cliffs of Moher casting their votes in favour of the River Shannon's design for a flag for the Island of Ireland....and this website tries to be an encyclopedia. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Come off it. The article currently lists no fewer than ten flags. Mount Everest has no Anglican church, irredentist movement, or rugby team. You are taking the view that the island has no existence other than as a simple piece of land. For many people, it is more than that (compare and contrast state, nation, country). If you disagree with those people, fair enough, that's a reasonable opinion, but that does not make the opposite opinion so silly as to be deleted. If you can find sources, then by all means add a section on people who think there is no need to have any flag for Ireland. Presumably such people believe cross-border organisations should
  • not exist, or
  • be represented by no flag, or
  • be represented by two flags
That would be a useful addition to the article, instead of making silly jokes. jnestorius(talk) 22:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
It really is a joke article. Here is the opening sentence:
There is no flag universally accepted as representing the entire island of Ireland.
Is there a flag for any part of the "island"? No. There is a flag for a state called Ireland and there is a flag for another state, the UK that includes part of the island. States, Regions etc often have flags. Human communities, like political parties, even companies like perhaps Tesco, may have flags! Islands are geographic features. They have mountains and streams etc. They do not have flags. Thats why this article is a joke (even if well-intended). Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Is there a flag for any part of the "island"? Well, yes: the Tricolour is the flag of the Republic. There are also provincial flags for each province. And NI has an (unofficial) flag. Mooretwin (talk) 10:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The key words in that sentence are "universally accepted". There are lots of flags for the island, as the rest of the article explains. Islands have people as well as mountains; people form "human communities". Whether the people of the island can be said to form a single community is a controversial question; but it's not a joke. jnestorius(talk) 22:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
You seem to have answered the question yourself RedKing. As you correctly state "regions have flag". What is Ireland, if not a region? Great Britain has it's own flag after all! ;) --Cameron* 15:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Hold on there, Cameron; I'm not sure I agree with — or understand — your analogy. "Great Britain has it's own flag after all"? The only specific GB flag I know is the obsolete Kingdom of Great Britain flag Union flag 1606 (Kings Colors).svg. Perhaps you wanted to start a debate about the symbolism of the current Union Flag Flag of the United Kingdom.svg? I think that's likely to be diversionary and distracting to the current debate, rather than enlightening or constructive. jnestorius(talk) 19:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I do apologise for any confusion, I was indeed referring to the former flag. The comment was meant facetiously hence the smiley... Regards, --Cameron* 19:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Re - You seem to have answered the question yourself RedKing. As you correctly state "regions have flag". Political or administrative "regions", "districts" etc...How could an Island have a flag? Can any one explain that! Its a geographic feature.
Re Great Britain has it's own flag after all! - Thats news to me, what flag does it have? Unless of course you are talking about a state, the United Kingdom and confusing an island with a state again?
Re Is there a flag for any part of the "island"? Well, yes: the Tricolour is the flag of the Republic. There are also provincial flags for each province. - Is another person mixing up the flag or a State with a flag of part of an island? I think so! Re provinces, precisely what I meant by regions etc. Islands do not have flags!
The Irish Republic's jurisdiction only extends over part of the island, therefore - to answer your question - its flag is "for" a "part of the island". Mooretwin (talk) 10:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I do not expect to win this one...I expect the jolly construction of an article about a flag of an "island" will continue. In time I may contribute a section on how the mountains and rivers of the Island might choose a design for the flag though I expect that would be rejected as not being in good faith....WP editors love flag articles. I can't help but joke about an article like this. It is a joke article really. Regards to all. Redking7 (talk) 21:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
By your logic, England doesn't have a flag. Mooretwin (talk) 10:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I think RedKing7's point is that all flags represent human institutions rather than geophysical features. Thus the Flag of Cuba, Flag of Iceland, Flag of Madagascar, etc, are not flags of the island per se, but rather flags of the nation-states with sovereignty over the eponymous islands.
The basis of the article is that there are other human institutions beside geopolitical ones that are defined in relation to a physical feature. Perhaps the Ireland rugby team represents the people of the island rather than its acreage of landmass. This nice difference is not something most people worry about; metonymy is one of the most basic features of all human languages. Perhaps RedKing7 would find the article less ridiculous if it had the title Flags of human institutions delimited by the island of Ireland. Let him pretend that it has that title, and let the rest of us, more comfortable than he with metonymy, proceed with the current title. jnestorius(talk) 12:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Hence Mooretwin's Flag of England example. The flag of Europe is another, Europe has never been a political unit. --Cameron* 12:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I think we are making progress. My reading is that you agree that islands, for example the islands of Cuba, Madagascar or Ireland do not have flags and indeed couldn't possibly have flags. Then you turn around and argue that I am "pretending" that the island of Ireland could not have a flag. Which is it? - Can islands have flags? or Am I pretending that an island cannot have a flag?
I am not enthusiastic about yet another flag article. However, this is my suggestion: If you are determined to proceed with an article along these lines, rename it as something logical. Don't pretend "islands" can have flags! Something like Flag for Ireland and Northern Ireland would atleast be coherent. I presume no one will agree with me but thats my suggestion. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
p.s Cameron - the "Continent of Europe" does not have a flag...The EU and the Council of Europe have. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I did not and do not claim that you are '"pretending" that the island of Ireland could not have a flag'. I used the word "pretend" in a context quite different from the sentence in which you quoted it. We seem to agree that physical objects cannot have flags and that human institutions can. Where I think we disagree is either:
  1. whether there are human institutions which can be identified with the physical object that is the island of Ireland.
  2. whether the flag used by such an institution can be considered to be a flag of Ireland, rather than simply the flag of the institution.
I can't see the logic of point 1. If each institution had a bespoke flag, such as those used in rugby-union and in field-hockey, then I could see the logic of point 2. However that is not the case: for example, the rugby-league, ice-hockey, and curling teams use the same Four Provinces flag. One might argue these were three distinct but identical flags for three different things. But I think it is much more natural and reasonable to consider this as a single flag — of what? of Ireland. jnestorius(talk) 13:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Title of this article[edit]

Someone has changed the title of this article without having discussed it beforehand. On the subject of the actual title, should there be a capital "a" in "All"? "All Ireland" is not a formal entity with a formal name, so should it not be "Flag of all Ireland"? Of course, "Flag of Ireland" would be the simplest, but we're not allowed that because of the phobia of the Southern-centric editors. Mooretwin (talk) 10:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I really don't like the new title. I would have simply reverted it back, but since the old title was already contentious it is probably better to have a once-and-for-all discussion. Here are some suggestions:
  • Flag[/s] [of / for / representing] ...
    • ...All Ireland
    • ...all Ireland
    • ...the island of Ireland
    • ...Ireland (island)
  • All-Ireland flag[/s]
  • [All-island / Cross-border] flag[/s] for Ireland
The claim that "All Ireland" is a WP:COMMONNAME for the island is dubious. For starters, it's mainly used attributively, as "All-Ireland X" rather than "X of All Ireland". Also, my impression is that the phrase is disliked by Unionists and not used other than to create bogey-man expressions — like "all Ireland institutions" rather than the less-contentious "all-island institutions". I have certainly noticed an increased use of the phrase "island of Ireland" among conciliatory southern nationalists since the start of the peace process. jnestorius(talk) 13:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
A quick google check will show that it is indeed a COMMONNAME. I did check to see if this was exclusively nationalist usage but, from examples covering the below, it would seem not.
Ernst & Young
Golden Retrievers
Lucian Sunday (talk) 13:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Lucian Sunday. My understanding of the "references" you provide actually supports Jnestorius's comment that All Ireland is primarily used attributively ("All-Ireland X" rather than "X of All Ireland"). Your sample pool includes: All Ireland Polo Club, All Ireland Cancer Conference, etc. At least therefore this would presume a rename to "All-Ireland flag(s)". As Jnestorius goes on to say however, this will be contentious - not least because the phrase is wholly avoided in many contexts by the "cross-border" institutions that this article actually deals with. Any of Jnestorius's proposals would certainly be better than the current naming. Though I'm personally hard pressed to pick one that stands out. Guliolopez (talk) 14:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I do not have a strong view and I agree the point All Ireland Foo is better tha Foo of All Ireland. But I do believe there is evidence of common across the board use of the term All Ireland, if not officially then certainly spontaneously. Lucian Sunday (talk) 14:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, I missed the early debates here, and my only involvement has been an attempt to clarify the hatnote. I do not believe there exist any all-Ireland flags of great standing, though I could see some point to the Four Provinces Flag in this respect. St. Patrick's Cross, with its odd history, and non-historic origins, does not have any general standing, and we should not elevate the flag of any one or even several associations unduly.
Getting down to naming, first, the name must include "flags", as there is certainly no "Flag" singular of or relating to the island. As this article is a sort of gathering, I favour a descriptive name, so from the above list, something like "Flags relating to the island of Ireland" or maybe "all-island flags of Ireland." Not elegant, no, but it says what is inside. Good luck, SeoR (talk) 15:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Where was the consensus to split from the Flag of Ireland article & where was the consensus for the name of this article? Wowser, this all happend under my nose. GoodDay (talk) 19:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
There is no consensus yet. I raised the issue here and in the absence of any feedback I was WP:BOLD. The name is currently under discussion in this section and the existence in the previous section. Feel free to chip in. jnestorius(talk) 21:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Cool. GoodDay (talk) 16:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
NEW TITLE - I agree with User: Jnestorius that Flag of All Ireland sounds quite Irish-nationalist (intentionally or not). I also agree with one of User: Jnestorius' suggestions, namely: Cross-border flag for Ireland. It is pretty coherent; immediately makes sense; and strikes me as very neutral. I will be WP:BOLD and move the article again. A consensus may emerge for a suitable title yet and I just think Cross-border flag for Ireland is one all could support. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Don't like that at all, I'm afraid. Makes the flag sound very contrived or something, in a "two government" kind of way. These flags are supposed to represent the whole island, without any regard to the border, whereas this name draws attention to the border. Mooretwin (talk) 22:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
The recent move doesn't seem very logical to me. Further, I do not believe consensus has been reached or that this has been adequately discussed. "Cross border Ireland" seems a lot less common than "All Ireland". Best, --Cameron* 13:16, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Re. Makes the [singular] flag sound very contrived or something, in a "two government" kind of way." - Agreed but the whole article is pretty contrived in that there is no single flag for both parts of the island of Ireland....; Re. "These flags are supposed to represent the whole island" - now you are talking about flags plural....Up to now, both article titles have been singular...If you think the article should be about the several flags that different political, sporting or other groups use to represent both parts of the Island, I fully support you...Sounds like a more logical article than an article about a singular flag that does not exist....I would welcome your suggestions to rename the article along the lines you seem to be suggesting...I suppose something like "Flags for the two parts of Ireland" or some such. Re. "whereas this name draws attention to the border." - I am not sure how that can be avoided....The criterion for a flag to be included is that it must be one that is used to represent both parts of the Island.... Re there was no consensus. You are correct. I was being WP:BOLD. I am not saying my choice is the last word by any means. Re "Cross border Ireland" seems a lot less common than "All Ireland", you are entirely correct but the term "All Ireland" sounds Irish nationalist. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the criticisms of both the 'All Ireland' and 'Cross border' names. I think the very first suggestions made on this page were probably the best: "Flags of the island of Ireland" or "Flags representing the island of Ireland". I think "flag" needs to be 'flags'--plural. If there's concern of confusion with "List of Irish flags," perhaps a hatnote here to the ROI and NI lists of flags pages. Nuclare (talk) 13:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm comfortable with flags rather than flag. Not sure about the suggestion that "all-Ireland" is a nationalist term. I prefer it to "cross-border", but "Flags of Ireland" is the obvious one, which failing "Flags of the island of Ireland". Also I disagree that any of these draw attention to the border as much as "cross-border" does - the whole point of the flags is to ignore the border, whereas entitling it "cross-border" makes a big deal about the border. Mooretwin (talk)
"Flags of [/the island of] Ireland" to me suggests List of Irish flags. "representing" or "for" instead of "of" would avoid that ambiguity. jnestorius(talk) 16:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm fine with "representing." Do you think perhaps this should be one of three choices at the "List of Irish flags." I know this isn't called "List of", but, whatever else these are, they are Irish flags. Should both states and the island flag pages not be accessible as choices all together? Nuclare (talk) 12:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Agree with "representing", if "Flags of Ireland" is not allowed. Mooretwin (talk) 11:39, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I second Mooretwin. --Cameron* 16:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Disagree. For the usual reasons. Sarah777 (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Disagree with what, for what reasons? And with what as a proposed alternative? jnestorius(talk) 21:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

We could go round and round in circles...Whatever is decided. I agree it should be (i) plural and (ii) representing. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 17:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The whole naming is daft. The current Flag of Ireland article should me moved to Irish Tricolour and moving what is currently at the PoV fork of Cross-border flag for Ireland to a much more logical disambiguation location at Flag of Ireland. Flag of the Republic of Ireland would point to Irish Tricolour. This is also entirely in line with the Wikipedia style on Flag of Northern Ireland and Ulster Banner articles. (talk) 20:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Small "a" or capital "a"[edit]

Without prejudice to my dislike of the the title of this article, I wish to point out that - now that the introductory sentence has been changed to lower case "a", by the same logic, so should the name of the article. Mooretwin (talk) 11:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair point, but as above I wouldn't bother moving it yet if it's only going to be moved again soon afterwards. jnestorius(talk) 13:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources[edit]

I contacted the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard to ask about the use of this reference here and was it acceptable to be used as a reliable source. The advice I got was that it should not be considered a reliable source however this did not mean that the information is wrong... only that we need a different source for it. Therefore I have removed it from the article and placed a citation tag in it's place. --Domer48'fenian' 15:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Scope and title[edit]

Although I was the one who suggested the current title, I think on reflection it is a poor choice. For one thing, it has a peace-process vibe, as though there is an ongoing debate seeking to find a single "cross-border flag". A title beginning "List of..." would avoid this false presentation. More fundamentally, I believe the article ought to be about all flags that have been used now or in the past to represent the island of Ireland. "Cross-border flag" limits its scope to the post-1921 period, preventing discussion of the various harp flags and the union jack. jnestorius(talk) 10:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Erne flag[edit]

This also means the "Erne flag" section is problematic, as it is a "cross-border flag" in a different sense: it is used when crossing the border. If I understand the section correctly (and the cited references are not helpful) the Erne flag is not intended to represent Ireland, but rather to dodge the question of representing the Republic or Britain. The section needs elaboration in any case if it is to stay in the article. The external sources are not incompatible with the scenario that the Erne flag is simply a club flag of the IWAI.

Is there a legal requirement to fly a national flag when on inland waterways?

  • If it's not required, then the Erne flag is superfluous: you can get around the awkward question of what flag to fly by flying none at all.
  • If it is required, then is the Erne flag recognised on both sides of the border as fulfilling the legal requirement?
    • If so that is very interesting and well worth mentioning, with sources
    • If not, then it seems the flag is useless in legal terms, since you must fly the tricolour/union jack as well as (or instead of) the Erne flag.
      • Or is it claimed that the authorities will turn a blind eye to the Erne flag? In which case, will they also turn a blind eye to boats with no flag at all?

jnestorius(talk) 10:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I do not know the origin of the Erne Flag. I understand that it is so called as it was first used on the lakes. It is not the club flag of the IWAI, they do sell it. The reality is that most boats on the Shannon–Erne Waterway do fly the flag. Only very rarely are national flags also flown. I have seen it elsewhere, but let’s not wander into OR. There is a legal requirement to fly a flag, but I am unaware of any prosecutions. The flag exists. It is flown. Therefore it should be in the article. However I accept your point that it has little or nothing to do with the peace process. Lugnad (talk) 12:21, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Interesting, [1] the 2011 Erne Boat rally "No flags are to be flown during the Rally, with the exception of the Erne Flag and Burgees." which forbad both tricolour and union jack.
My point is that the topic of the article ought to be "flags intended to represent the island of Ireland" rather than "flags flown on both sides of the Irish border". The flag exists. It is flown. Therefore it should be in the article. is not sufficient. The Flag of Ulster is a "cross-border flag" but it is not an all-island flag. It seems to me that the Erne flag is in the same category; it appears ([2] [3]) to be the flag of the Erne branch of IWAI. It belongs more at Northern Ireland flags issue than this page; it is not a flag purporting to represent the island of Ireland, but rather a flag created to address Northern sensitivities. jnestorius(talk) 13:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
ok - you have a point. Lugnad (talk) 15:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

"St. Patrick" saltire[edit]

Probably should be some mention of the fact that the red saltire seems to have been created from scratch (as far as being a symbol of St. Patrick goes) in 1783 for the establishment of the British royal Order of St. Patrick, and some might have doubts as to its historical authenticity or appropriate symbolism for such reasons... AnonMoos (talk) 14:37, 24 February 2012 (UTC)