Talk:Crucita Calabaza

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Untitled

I have redirected Crucita Gonzales Calabaza to this article and corrected her format at the List of Native American artists. But this is actually backwards. This article should have been named "Crucita Gonzales Calabaza", and "Blue Corn" redirected to that article. I suggest a change. Amerindianarts 09:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't this page refer to the common plant rather than some obscure artist? Especially given that the latter almost certainly takes her name from the former. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.39.229 (talk) 03:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What about the blue corn??? =

Why isn't this article mentioning the corn variety of blue color ???

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Requested move 27 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved per consensus. (non-admin closure) Xain36 {talk} 08:28, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Blue Corn → Crucita Calabaza – Article should use this persons actual name for the title as per WP:PRECISE and WP:COMMONNAME with her nickname of "Blue Corn" as a redirect as per WP:DIFFCAPS. Another editor commented above that the article should use her actual name. I am finding quite a few very good sources to backup the article. Not certain why other editors have failed to refer to some of these very excellent sources. I have heard of this person as she was quite famous in New Mexico for her pottery, most of which was featured in Arizona Highways and other Southwestern publications in the 1970's. Most of her work is quite valuable now that she is deceased and quite expensive, she certainly meets notability guidelines but this article needs more vetting which I will help to add while we debate what the title should be. Octoberwoodland (talk) 03:02, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support blue corn is often capitalized as a crop variety. And Crucita Calabaza (c. 1920 -1999) is known by real name. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:43, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. — AjaxSmack 12:04, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blue Corn redirect to Blue corn and this page to 'Blue Corn (potter)'. per common name. WP:DIFFCAPS is fading into a diorama historic Wikipedia page. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:02, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blue Corn (potter) per Randy Kryn. A check of the sources shows she is referred to as Blue Corn as if it was a name change or at the very least how she presented herself in the world of the arts a la pennames like Mark Twain. See https://kinggalleries.com/brand/blue-corn-pottery/ - "Blue Corn was born "Crucita Calabaza" at San Ildefonso Pueblo." followed by referring to her in running text as Blue Corn. https://www.adobegallery.com/artist/Crucita_Calabaza_1921_199925820 uses Calabaza at first, but then refers to her as Blue Corn in running text afterward. SnowFire (talk) 22:32, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Randy Kryn:@SnowFire:I don't object to renaming the article Blue Corn (potter), however, Wikipedia consistency seems to require biographies using the common name instead of a nickname. I realize she was called blue corn as a tribal name and used it throughout her life to sign her pottery (using English words instead of the Tewa words for "Blue Corn"), however, her legal name should be used here (whatever was on her drivers license). Also her tribe are Tewa and in their language "Blue Corn" translates as "Phéndi Khųų", which is a far cry from the English pronunciation of the words "Blue Corn", so this cannot be her Tewa name proper. There are valid counter arguments to this position. For example, Rock Hudson is a made up stage name for Roy Harold Scherer, Jr., etc. which a lot of actors have done creating a stage name and for which wikipedia uses whichever was the common name for the subject of the bio. It may in fact be proper to use her tribal name "Blue Corn", but as near as I can tell, she used "Blue Corn" for signing her pottery as a stage name of sorts, while her actual name was Crucita. Not an easy call to make on this one. More discussion is certainly helpful. Octoberwoodland (talk) 02:27, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For whatever it's worth, the guidelines of WP:PSEUDONYM says "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not the person's "real" name." The sources seem to use Phéndi Khųų very rarely, and only use Crucita Calabaza somewhat; Blue Corn appears to be the most frequently used term in the sources I checked. Additionally, she's only notable as a potter, so her "stage name" here is far more relevant than her driver's license name. SnowFire (talk) 08:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You have convinced me we should consider using Blue Corn (potter) as one possible title for the article. You are correct that her notability all stems from pottery work. Octoberwoodland (talk) 20:31, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

After reviewing all the relevant sources, all of them list her actual name next to "Blue Corn", most of them take the format: "Blue Corn (Crucita Calabaza)" or the reverse "Crucita Calabaza (Blue Corn)" . "Blue Corn", which she used to sign her pottery is either followed by or preceded by her actual legal name. So it appears to be 50:50 usage of "Blue Corn" along with "Crucita Calabaza" in the sources, as well as "Crucita Blue Corn Calabaza". This is not much help for deciding this one way or the other. It appears the sources in all cases use "Crucita Calabaza (Blue Corn)" with the combined name usage of both "Crucita Calabaza" and "Blue Corn" in various permutations, with the usage of "Crucita Calabaza" slightly more frequent than "Blue Corn". In all of the available sources "Blue Corn" is not used standalone, but is combined with her actual name. ^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4] Octoberwoodland (talk) 07:00, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

[1] ttps://www.medicinemangallery.com/blue-corn-crucita-gonzales-calabaza-1921-1999-san-ildefonso-miniature-black-pot.html

[2] ttps://www.adobegallery.com/artist/Crucita_Calabaza_1921_199925820

[3] ttps://www.themarksproject.org/marks/gonzales-calabaza

[4] ttp://www.mariajulianpottery.com/san-ildefonso/crucita-blue-corn-calabaza/

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