Talk:Fumihito, Prince Akishino

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Requested move 12 January 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. DrKiernan (talk) 17:53, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

– A user moved the pages of the Japanese Imperial Family without any discussion. As an administrator he should know that it was better to a start a discussion on the talk page. His reason for changing the titles was the official website of Imperial Household Agency, because it refers to them by their imperial titles like this: HIH Prince/ss X (similar to HRH The Prince of Orange, etc). Well on Wikipedia the royal family members' articles are titled like this: "Name, Prince of X". British royal family's website also refers to them by their titles like HRH The Prince of Wales but on Wikipedia his article's title is Charles, Prince of Wales. Most of the articles of royal families are titled like this, so it is a kind of rule. Even Japanese Wikipedia includes the names of their royals on its articles' headings. Takahito, Prince Mikasa was moved to Prince Mikasa etc. It also misleads that his name is Mikasa when in fact that is his title. In Japan he is known as Prince Mikasa (in Japanese) similar to how the Prince William is known as Duke of Cambridge even though his given name is Takahito. There are others although Aiko, Princess Toshi has not been moved. Aiko, Princess Toshi is a good title because it combines her name with her title of Princess Toshi. Also if the Japanese succession rules change in favor of Princess Aiko to become empress, then the current Princess Akishino's son becomes 2nd Prince Akishino after his father's death and his wife will be styled as Princess Akishino. Actually, if Prince Mikasa's son, Prince Tomohito, didn't die sooner than his father, he would become Prince Mikasa and his wife would become Princess Mikasa. If Hirohito's other brothers had sons, they would carry on their fathers' titles now. It seems the titles are hereditary but for example Nobuhito, Prince Takamatsu, was moved to Prince Takamatsu while it has been the second creation of this title and he hasn't been the only person to use it. Unfortunately most of the members of the imperial family are females currently and these titles can't be used by them after their fathers' deaths. But all of these imperial titles can become recreated for a new prince to start a branch of the Imperial Family. So it's better to use their first names before their titles to avoid from confusing in the future. Besides, many sites and blogs refer to them by first name or full name with the title. Keivan.fTalk 18:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Support - Not to mention he didn't bother moving Sachiko, Princess Hisa to Princess Hisa (that itself needs a correction on the family tree of the page). I support moving these pages back to the way they were. Honestly, for a time, I thought Prince Mikasa was his personal name. Name + title removes a possibility of confusion.The Agency page is not often update seeing how Princess Noriko is listed as a member, plus as you said British Royals are also listed by their titles instead of names on their websites. Plus, I had to edit all these pages to remove the silly HIH before their titles in the first sentences (even for deceased members). --Killuminator (talk) 22:20, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per status quo and common English usage. Dralwik|Have a Chat 02:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Support There was no previous discussion for moving. We have to make it clear what his given name and titles are. Aiko, Princess Toshi hasn't been moved. Not to mention that Akishino also is the name of his household like the Prince of Wales has (Clarence House) . I find that funny almost like referring to him as Prince Household. --Hipposcrashed (talk) 04:24, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per arguments above. I note that he didn't move Naruhito, Crown Prince of Japan. But also note there are pages like Princess Mako of Akishino which are likely to need moving. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Comment @Jonathan A Jones: Thanks for your support. Actually Princess Mako of Akishino's case is completely different because she doesn't have a title for herself unlike her cousin Princess Aiko who was born with the royal title Princess Toshi. But Princess Mako and her siblings and also some other members of the Imperial Family like Princess Akiko, Princess Tsuguko and their siblings are addressed with their parents' or grandparents' households like this: "Prince/ss 'Name' of X". Keivan.fTalk 20:00, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks: hence my use of the weasel word "likely". Happy to leave details to the experts; my only expertise in this field is that I happened to live in the room directly below Prince Akishino when he was at Oxford! Jonathan A Jones (talk) 09:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
@Jonathan A Jones: Interesting. I thought only Crown Prince Naruhito attended Oxford University. I hadn't paid attention to Prince Akishino's education until now that you said you were in the same university with him. Keivan.fTalk 14:54, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment Honestly, I would support doing the same thing for the emperors :P. I know it's kind of a unique case, but the titles confused me at first a long time ago plus I have a problem with the page Empress Kojun because she's just as known as her notorious husband by her real name instead of her post mortem title O_o .--Killuminator (talk) 08:32, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
@Killuminator: I think Japanese emperors and empresses, specially those before Hirohito and his wife, are known by their posthumous names. Hirohito is more common than Emperor Showa in English, but I think Empress Kojun and Empress Nagako are both common. Of course if you think Empress Nagako is a more suitable title for the article, you can give a move request. I don't know when Akihito and Michiko die what their articles' titles be, the current titles or their posthumous names (Emperor Heisei and Empress "X"). It should also be decided in the future. Keivan.fTalk 23:09, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
The late empress isn't really in the news or textbooks often so I can't say which one is more used and I don't even know how to pronounce Kojun, but textbooks in the place where I live use the term Emperor Mutsuhito (Emperor Meiji's personal name) or Car Mucuhito in my native language. Their customs of renaming people after death are meaningless to us, because we study what they did during their lifetimes :P. --Killuminator (talk) 11:18, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Killuminator: I think the empress dowager wasn't really active in political life and Michiko seems to be more active than Nagako in performing her duties. It's really difficult to find which name is more common. In my country, we don't have a tradition to rename the people after their death, but this custom exists in far east and they give dead people new titles, rename them or even give them official posts as in North Korea. Also I agree that events and the name used by a person during his lifetime is important but I think the articles' title should be based upon their culture and I really think many of Japanese emperors and empresses, specially those before Meiji, are known by their posthumous names. Actually Hirohito's posthumous name has also become more common during these 26 years both in Japan and in the world, as it is used also in some internet sources. All the Japanese emperors and empresses were known by their real names during their existence but I think after their deaths, their posthumous names became common after a period of time. In a comparison with the other Japanese emperors and empresses I think moving Hirohito to Emperor Showa is a better choice. There was also a discussion about moving Empress Kojun's article and another one for moving Hirohito, unfortunately the results were "no moving". Maybe a move request with enough reasons should be given. By this situation Akihito's and Michiko's articles may become renamed after their deaths however it should be discussed in the future. Keivan.fTalk 12:45, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I would object to moving Hirohito to Emperor Showa because he is a rather notorious figure known by his personal name. I'm more of a compromise person. Something like Hirohito, Emperor Showa or to put their name in brackets like Russian empresses have their birth names like that. --Killuminator (talk) 13:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I think history books will have posthumous name. This is like Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's article title. Since she is a deceased former consort of the king, her birth name should be used but for sentimental reasons, those that remember her wanted her article title to be Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. We could go both ways with this. Was she best known for being a consort or mother of the sovereign? In a history book of consorts, you would find her listed by her birth name. Years from now when no one remembers the current sovereign, you could expect that she is best known for being a consort although she was most recently a mother of the sovereign.--Hipposcrashed (talk) 15:19, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Killuminator: It seems to be a good suggestion to combine their real names with their posthumous titles but it's really difficult and cannot be done for all of them. Some of them have changed their real names like Empress Shoken who changed her name from Masako to Haruko. And we should find the real names of all emperors and empresses and then give a multiple move request for over 200 pages. Also maybe their posthumous titles are more common than their real names. When I was looking at Chinese emperors' and empresses' articles, I understood that some of them are titled under their honorary name not their posthumous names like Empress Dowager Cixi. And personal names of many of them are unknown. So it's not that much necessary to put their real names as their articles' titles. I'll give a move request for Hirohito very soon. You can wait for the result. If the users decided to not move the page, then you can give a move request for Nagako. Actually as I said above there was also a request for moving Kojun to Nagako which failed. I don't know what is in the users minds :/ Keivan.fTalk 15:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Killuminator: I think we should also find some Japanese people on Wikipedia to explain to us that why some Japanese empresses' articles are titled like this: "Fujiwara no Kachiko, Princess Tochi, etc". They were empresses (kogo) and the titles of their articles should include "Empress". Like Empress Shoshi whose name is actually Fujiwara no Shoshi. I don't know that it is her real name or posthumous name. By the way don't you think that Japanese empresses' articles should be moved? For example moving Fujiwara no Kachiko to Empress Kachiko? I think Japanese Wikipedia has their articles' under their birth name, like Mary of Teck. But in a comparison with Chinese empresses and some other Japanese empresses, I think the titles should change. Keivan.fTalk 16:14, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Hipposcrashed: It's not about being the consort or the mother of sovereign because I think her case is a little different with Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother. Kojun was known as Empress Dowager Nagako during her son's reign and after her death she was given the posthumous name of Empress Kojun which is a tradition for dead emperors and empresses to be renamed. But I think Kojun is also common and the name of the page for the empress does not need to go hand-in-hand with Hirohito's article. WP:MOS-JP is a much more specific (and thus more applicable) guideline to use here than WP:NC (CN). Keivan.fTalk 16:24, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Killuminator: According to WP:MOS-JP, "For Japanese emperors including emperors from both the northern and southern courts during the Nanboku-chō period, use the form [[Emperor {name}]], which is a partial translation of their posthumous name. The word Emperor is an integral part of the name and not merely a title, so it should be capitalized and the article the should not appear before it. It is also acceptable to refer to a Japanese emperor without "Emperor", so long as the first appearance of the name uses the above format." I'm going to find someone to explain what to do with empresses. Keivan.fTalk 16:30, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm studying for three tedious exams, so I'cant read all this now, I'll be back later tonight. Most of these pre 19-th century emperors are probably notable enough for Japanese people, but are all obscure for us foreigners. So Meiji onwards are the most famous emperors, gotta go, I'm under pressure -.- . --Killuminator (talk) 17:21, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm studying too. Please leave your message at night. I'll see it and answer you tonight or tomorrow. Thanks a lot. Keivan.fTalk 18:22, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
OK, here is some spare time on my side. It seems that the situation with empresses is an rather big inconsistency, I did put one of them under the category Japanese empresses seeing how it was omitted. Regarding personal names of emperors, another alternative is to put their personal name on top of the infobox, it's a standard even used for ex-princesses like Noriko Senge, Sayako Kuroda etc. --Killuminator (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Killuminator: Yes, I agree with you. Their personal name should be on top of the infobox. About empresses, I'm trying to contact with Japanese Wikipedia or find someone here on English Wikipedia to get help from. I have left a message for Japanese Wikipedians to explain me how the names of empresses' articles should be. I'm waiting for their answer. Keivan.fTalk 11:59, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
@Killuminator: And finally a reply from a Japanese Wikipedian about the titles of Japanese empresses' articles. Posthumous name for Empresses were disappeared in late Asuka-Nara period(上代, 6-8 century), and Nyoin name(女院) started to be used instead. Note that Nyoin doesn't always mean empress. During the Meiji period, Nyoin name has also been done away with, and posthumous name for Empresses were resumed. As a result, Empress Eishō, Empress Shōken, Empress Teimei, Empress Kōjun, only four of them have posthumous name after the Heian period. Keivan.fTalk 15:39, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I saw this discussion here now. I do not agree with it, because you are inventing a format that is incorrect. Gryffindor (talk) 09:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

@Gryffindor: And then how do you say that this format is incorrect? Here on Wikipedia only common name is used. Prince Akishino or Prince of Wales are only their official titles. It's also a rule on Wikipedia to have the names of royals before their titles. These pages were created with this form at first until you started to move them without any discussion. If you want the titles changed again, then, you should move all the royalty articles. Almost all of them! Keivan.fTalk 11:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)