Talk:George Washington (inventor)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Events mistaken as April Fools' Day hoaxes

(Taken from April 1, 2007)

Genuine events that had been interpreted as April Fools' Day hoaxes included:

• The Wikipedia featured article about one of the inventors of instant coffee, George Washington (not to be confused with president George Washington). However, this was made the featured article for April 1 deliberately to deceive people.

Precise business terms

I was trying to link to businessman, but that is too generic an article to be of any use. Then I was looking at food industry, either that article, or one of the ones in there, should be linked from here. Was this guy involved solely in the manufacturing end, plus marketing (viz the adverts), and never in the retail section? Can the appropriate links from above be worked in somehow? Carcharoth 08:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Political quote

I've been investigating the background to the quote from the "unnamed Brooklyn politician", which gives a fascinating insight into the society at the time. I linked to William M. Calder, who appears to be the senator mentioned, and to Prospect Park (Brooklyn), as that seems to be where the "Prospect Park West" is. The links I added to Albert Feltman and George Hamlin Childs remain stubbornly red. Albert Feltman might just be a random wealthy bloke that Washington bought a house from, but George Hamlin Childs certainly deserves a stub at least. I think they are referring to the founder of Bon Ami. See the stuff about the father in this article about the son (Richard Spencer Childs): [1]. Oh, and the quote from this unnamed politician needs a date and reference details so people can look it up for themselves. Carcharoth 08:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. The Childs stuff is confusing. See http://bonami.com/history/ - "William H. Childs, son of Gurdon Hicks Childs, and his cousin, William Henry Harrison Childs, formed the firm of Childs and Childs in 1890 and the firm became the exclusive sales agent for Bon Ami." Different dates here. Different names as well! Carcharoth 09:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Some old TIME articles that mention Childs: [2] and [3] - his death in 1928 and his founding of the company in 1886. I'll start a stub so we can link it from here. Carcharoth 09:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. I actually live pretty nearby, and tried to find his mansion recently. Unfortunately Washington's long gone, but Child's mansion (and another one belonging to a paper magnate right next to it) are still there.--Pharos 09:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

We need to be careful. The names seem different. Your politician says "George". The soap manufacturer is "William". Someone got something wrong, or different people? Are you around for a bit - I'd like to discuss some more stuff about this article if you have the time (don't worry if you don't). Carcharoth 09:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the historic marker said "George Hamlin Childs". Yeah, I'm free to answwer questions now.--Pharos 09:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Cool. See below. I'll add some more here. Carcharoth 09:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Right. The article says he "lived in Brooklyn", but no details are given. Later, the quote mentions a Prospect Park mansion. Can this be verified elsewhere? I wouldn't rely on the bombastic quote from the unnamed politician. Would be nice to say where in Brooklyn Washington lived. Also, you mention that his New Jersey industrial plant (presumably the 45 Hannover Avenue location) was sold to Tenco in 1961. Do we know if the industrial building is still there? Unlikely, but maybe find a source that says what exists there now? You also link to Bush Terminal as the location of his earlier factory - any chance of chasing up the history of that, or seeing what exists there now? Finally, if he was buried in Brooklyn, you might be able to locate his grave! Carcharoth 09:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The home address was 47 Prospect Park West - it's an apartment building now. Bush Terminal is a big complex of buildings and it's still active industrially, but not as much as it used to be. The factory's address is now occupied by an import-export company (I meant to physically check that out earlier, but oh well). It's quite possible it's still the same building. Sorry, I think I'm gonna have to go back to editing now...--Pharos 09:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

OK. Do you think you could tidy up the dates, as I mention below, or shall I try that? Carcharoth 09:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll do it, to the extent that it's possible with the fragmentary documentation we have, which I'm pretty familiar with at this point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pharos (talk • contribs) 09:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

I'm looking through the patents at the moment - you can leave me to sprucify that if you want. Feel free to reorganise if I get the style wrong. Is there a style for patent lists? Carcharoth 09:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for helping the the patents, that is one are I have researched less exhaustively.--Pharos 10:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Dates

Overall, the dating in the "Early life, personal life and family" section is a bit loose. Some of the dates are given later, but they need to be mentioned up front where the reader reads them first. Also, the lead section should have more years mentioned, to give an overall idea of the story. Some more stuff needing dates (if possible):

• The adverts (February 23, 1914 for the first one, etc).
• His degree in Germany - what years?
• The date his gas mantle company was abandoned (and founded if possible).
• His return to New York - is this 1908 as the article implies?
• "after his coffee business was established" - later you say this is 1910
• "When his company's operations relocated to New Jersey" - later, the article says this was in 1927 - mention this year in the earlier sentence as well. If this stuff dates from 1927, put it after the 1920 presidential election nomination stuff, and presumably move the quote up as well, if that comes from 1920. - I'm retracting this suggestion, except the 1927 bit, which I rephrased.
• Any dates for the marriage and children? - now added.
• I don't know the style for patent lists, but can you expand with brief details next to each link? A description and date should be enough.

That's enough for the moment. Carcharoth 09:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources and typos

A few unsourced things probably need sourcing, plus a typo:

• "second home at Bellport in Suffolk County".
• I love the WWI soldier quote from a letter - is "screm" the original mis-spelling (add 'sic' if so), or is it a transcription typo?
• Do you have his death location? Did he die in Brooklyn, in Medham?
• The link to Novelty is a disambiguation page - is there a better link?

I'll add more as I spot them. Carcharoth 10:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing more specific than novelty that's appropriate, no. He died in Medham at a smaller place he moved to a couple of years before his death (I know, I know... working on it).--Pharos 10:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

You are finding some great stuff here. I assume that the link attributing Mrs George Washington is to an obituary of her. Did she die in 1952. If so, when you add the marriage year, could you add when she died (and her birth year as well, if the obituary gives it). I'm not going to have time to look at the patents until tonight though. Carcharoth 11:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's an obituary. Unfortunately, though, it doesn't give many details about her — it only says she was born in Belgium and about 75 at age of death.--Pharos 11:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Birth date now added, from that handy 1900 census! I think I'll delink novelty. Carcharoth 13:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Franklin Farms

P. D. Ouspensky and his students bought and semi-communally lived at Franklin Farms during the 1940s; I think this is sort of interesting, but I removed it when someone pointed out its general irrelevance to Washington. But the evidence is growing in my mind that Washington probably sold the property directly to them, which I think probably would make it relevant. Can anyone provide a direct reference for this? Thanks.--Pharos 15:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Gangs of New York connection

I am holding the following text here until I find a better citation, as it was removed from the article. If anyone else finds a better citation, please use these details - its a waste of good info to just sit here! - Freechild 06:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Director Martin Scorsese is said to have included a character representing Washington in the 2002 film Gangs of New York. Jard Watkins, played by actor Jim Broadbent, was played to have been in cahoots with actor Daniel Day-Lewis' character, William "Bill the Butcher" Cutting. However, there is no substantive evidence that the real Washington was ever in contact with Bill 'The Butcher' Poole, the actual person Cutting is based on. - Duck 24 (2002) Gangs of New York Discussion Page: "To whom was Amsterdam talking when he said..." Internet Movie Database.

Pic

An approximation of Mr. Washington's appearance based on available historical information.

In lieu of contemporary photographs or paintings, here is an artist's rendition of Washington, with coffee. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 15:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

You know, if you've read the article recently, he should really have a monkey sitting on his shoulder :)--Pharos 15:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

♥♥♥ ShadowHalo 20:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Can I take it that there are no pics of the man himself, portraits or anything? It would really help the confussion between this and Pres. Washington...
Ferdia O'Brien The Archiver And The Vandal Watchman (Talk)

Featured Article: April 1

This is a joke, right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.28.136.20 (talk) 00:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

If this is an April Fool's Joke, this is the only one that has gotten me for more than 2 seconds, going on five minutes. WELL DONE WITH THE ARTICLE. Userpie 00:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Probably not an April Fool's joke, if you read the nomination process of this article. --Souphanousinphone 00:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This was an excellent joke. I was rather scared for a minute that someone had majorly hacked the wiki. But good job, y'all. Kudos to the guy who thought of this, it really got me for about 30 seconds... then I came here =) Skywalkert65b

Congratulations! This is a great joke! Lockesdonkey 01:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

One of the great things about main page FAs is learning about new things I generally wouldn't have otherwise found out about. With all due credit to the guy who came up with what he thought was a great idea, putting "a quirky nobody" (to quote the article creator) I've never heard about on the main page doesn't constitute fooling me since I come to learn new things. The rewritten lead section on the main page leads one to anticipate a humorous article but instead one is treated to a rather ordinary, dry article.

If people are going to spend all that effort in rushing an article from creation to the main page in four days and put an absurd description on the main page then why not keep with the fun factor and only use a serious style of writing after April 1st? Maybe next year people will spend a bit more time in organising and put up a real fake article, not just a real article about an obscure topic. Waerloeg 02:53, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we should remember the introduction on the main page, though:

"Washington at war George Washington was an early inventor of instant coffee, and worked to ensure a full supply to soldiers fighting at the front. Early on, his campaign was based in Brooklyn, but later he crossed into New Jersey toward a more profitable position. In the countryside, he demonstrated a love of wild creatures, and was often seen with a bird or a monkey on his shoulder. Washington's choice beverage was taken up by the soldiers for its psychoactive properties, even though it tasted terrible. Some thought his brewed powder could even remedy the chemical weapons then in use. But, despite this, Washington failed in his first bid for the Presidency, as papers were filed too late, and the nominator forgot to tell him about it. (more...)"--Syd Henderson 03:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

So it was an joke. You guys got me. Bravo.--Mullon 03:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, it was supposed to be funny. Whoever planned this has the humour of an 80 year old anglo-belgian lady. ---Crazyswordsman 04:12, 1 April 2007 (CET)

Oh come on, you know you dig on the octogenarian Anglo-Belgian babes.... Anyway, I thought it was a good joke. Fedallah 04:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I must say, if it's an April Fool's Joke, it's a rather well sourced one.74.134.100.101 05:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a good one at all. I'm no historian but the minute I read the first paragraph I realized something was fishy, and then I realized it's the 31st of May. Plus when it is mentioned that he is not the same person as the 1st president, it kills the whole joke of it. If it would have been more subtle, and gave accurate dates to the "real" Washington I would have been taken in and amazed that Washington actually invented instant coffee, and that's the whole point of a practical joke. It should be absolutely realistic, not blatantly obvious. I guess in the end the joke is on the joker. But the rest of the arcticles are actually pretty believable.

31st of May? That's some timezone! --Dreaded Walrus 16:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I must say, this is a rather well chosen FA. I honestly believed the main page was joking until I actually read the article. JIP | Talk 05:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I only read the main page text, shown at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 1, 2007, assumed it was a weird April fools joke and didn't bother to read the article. I'm surprised to find out it was real. Edit summaries also show confusion among administrators. PrimeHunter 11:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If this is an AF joke, it's the most detailed I've seen. 60.224.228.166 06:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Brilliant April Fools prank. I got it was a joke when the article talked of crossing into NJ. S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I like it. Of course the writing is different than that of the main page; featured articles are supposed to be well-written. But the blurb on the main page is real Uncyclopedia quality, and it apparently fooled a bunch of people. ShadowHalo 07:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not (quite) a joke: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/cool:@field(DOCID+@lit(lg0571)) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DarkAudit (talk • contribs) 07:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

Washington was a seedy, shady guy. This article is just skimming the surface, and more needs to be told. He was one of the old school Tammany Hall kind-of operators; I just read an article in the Encyclopedia of New York History that implies he was tied up with Charles F. Murphy and James Walker, but I can't find anything direct. What a character. - Freechild 07:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it didn't really "get" me, though I had serious doubts if it were a joke. The main thing that makes it suspicious is its surprisingly short edit history: it wasn't created until tuesday and that's too short for any FA. I am not particularly happy with this joke, just because it really fools the unsuspecting reader. I might have preferred a more obviously false Nihilartikel like the Toilet Paper Holder article two years ago. Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 08:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the sudden appearance of "Mr.Washington" on such a short notice is what set my alarm bell off as well. Preparing the joke a few days in advance for the sake of credibility was a good try, tho.

Ace! What a good joke - Happy April Fools Day EvERYone! ACBestMy Contributions 09:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice. `i immediately thought it was a joke, but on reading the article it gradually dawned on me that there might be some substance to it (albeit a psychoactive substance) – it took the Nestlé page to convince me he existed, and a look at a patent to confirm his first name really was George. Well done! .. dave souza, talk 10:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

For a minute there I thought I had accidently entered onto uncyclopedia...--Chickenfeed9 12:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Try ebay e.g. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180096009135 for better results ;) Darn, they got the cloudies... ^^ Harami2000 13:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Aren't April Fool's jokes supposed to be funny? Why does this "joke" suck harder than an starving Ethiopian (pardon the redundancy) hooker? Seriously, as soon as I saw the title of the Featured Article and the picture, it was an instant giveaway. Try harder next year. - MegaKitsune 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Anyone can tell a lie and have it look like the truth. It takes talent to tell the truth so it looks like a lie. -- Cyrius|✎ 16:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well done. -- Infrogmation 17:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Great choice for April 1st. --Bobak 19:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This is just weird. I never thought it was a joke, but I was annoyed at vague and badly written the front page was. No dates? Which war? Which presidential campaign? I'm honestly not sure if more "professional" minded people would enjoy this either. I've seen funnier pranks. Brutannica 21:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you guys definitely almost had me on this one. This has got to be the most convincing pure-baloney April-fools' piece since "Byzantine Empire" ("The division of the Empire began with the Tetrarchy (quadrumvirate) in the late 3rd century AD with Emperor Diocletian"... lol.). $\sim$ Lenoxus " * " 02:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Questioned statement

The following passage was marked with a fact-tag:

For a short period after the New York City incident Washington became a recluse in the vein of J.D. Salinger or Thomas Pynchon. However, Washington became much more sociable in his later years, becoming closely associated with several prominent business and society figures. William Randolph Hearst was supposedly first informed by Washington of the negative and thinly veiled portrayal of him in Orson Welles' landmark film Citizen Kane at a garden party in San Simeon.

If there are genuinely suspicious statements in main page FAs do not add fact tags, but rather remove the statement altogether and bring it up on the talkpage. The article gains absolutely nothing from having a citation request that casts a shadow of doubt on the entire article. And this is especially important in one featured on April 1st.

Peter ^Isotalo 10:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Missing Olympic Medal

This article fails to note Washington's gold medal in Barrel Rolling at the 1908 Olympic Games, nor his considerable contribution to the economic welfare of midwestern states by smuggling pasta seeds out of Italy and maintaining the first spaghetti and linguini vinyards in North America. During a stay in London, he became friendly with Dame Agatha Christie, who, it is believed, patterned her Belgian-born character Hercule Poirot after the brilliant Belgian-American inventor. It's clearly a POV omission by anti-Belgian agitators. Scott Adler 11:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha. -- Zanimum 18:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed for now

When the Eighteenth Amendment went into effect in 1920, Washington became a rapid and public supporter of the Temperance movement. However, this relationship was soured after he was caught in a late 1926 raid on a New York City speakeasy. Shortly thereafter Washington's business operations moved to New Jersey, rumored to be in rebuttal to the city's continued allegations. Washington adamantly denied any wrongdoing. Washington's relationship with Al Capone was only revealed after his death, and may have been related to his connections with the entertainment industry later in his life.

Hollywood stars, too, benefited from a good word from Washington in the right ear, including a young Frank Sinatra. In 1943, it was Washington's close relationship with Columbia Records' William S. Paley that reportedly brought the young Sinatra to his first major recording contract. In the months after Washington's death in 1946, Sinatra landed a minor hit with "The Coffee Song (They've Got An Awful Lot Of Coffee In Brazil)", which was dedicated in Washington's memory at every concert where Sinatra performed it. Another close associate, big band leader Sonny Burke, also eulogized Washington with the song "Black Coffee", which he often dedicated to Washington's memory in concert, as well.

References

This looks pretty questionable to me. The refs in particular, look like joke names. For example, "Teetotter" for the Temperance Society.--Pharos 13:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this seems quite legitimately a fake. Google finds no results for "Gangland Rumours: Friends of Capone". -- Zanimum 18:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

George Washington Carver

I'm surprised that he's not mentioned in this article anywhere considering how often I'd imagine the two inventors are mistaken for one another. Quixoto 13:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

So this entire article is a joke? This man never existed? or he was real but you've made stuff up about him? Speaking as a non american i dont know ewhether this is the 'real' george washington but i though he wasnt alive at world war 1? the picture was funny , maybe you shoul dhave kept that up there to make a joke.

The guy this article is about was a real person, and the article is completely factual. There have been a lot of notable people named George Washington over the years in the United States. George Washington Carver might be worth mentioning somewhere; I don't know. —Cuiviénen 16:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It's all true. The "real" Washington (the one who was President) died in the early 1800's.

Actually in 1799. Brutannica 23:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Wait... this is an April Fools joke? That never occured to me. Quixoto 17:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no. It was chosen to be on the front page today, because of the confusion it would cause. But he is a real person, completely different from George Washington the president, and inventor George Washington Carver. He is one of about 20 notable and 100% genuine George Washingtons we have articles on. -- Zanimum 18:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This article being on the front page today of all days is sheer genius. :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

See i don't believe you anymore. If it wasnt an aprils fool why are all those people above talking about it as if it is? The good thing with april fools jokes though are that once you've been told about them you should feel stupid for believing them ie spaghetti tree but i could easily see someone like this existing as plenty of eccentric people exist etc. Someone coming out and saying 'Oh this isn't real' doesn't make me feel stupid like when my dad told me the british goverment were recalling all penises issued during the year of my birth (I was young...)

...well i say young... more accurate would be to say i was a confused 17 year old...

I will repeat once more, the article itself is not an April Fools' joke. This George Washington was a 100% genuine person. We just thought it would be amusing to put a nobody named George Washington on the Main Page as a the Featured Article on April Fools'. —Cuiviénen 19:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, you caught us. But it was a good prank, wasn't it? Do you know how long it took us to fake all of those sources? And more importantly how much of a payoff we had to give to Nestlé for them to include the hoax on its website? ShadowHalo 20:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, sheer genius. The confusion is the icing on the cake... EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Images

We have advertising images for the coffee, but no photos of the actual person the article is supposedly about? How did this happen in a featured article? -- Infrogmation 17:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Simply because none could be located. Stuff like that does happen. We're lucky to even have one picture of Frederic Chopin. Circeus 18:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I rather think that photographs of well to do US businessmen who died in the 1940s tend to be quite markedly more common than of musicians who died young in the 1840s. I'd be quite surprised if no photo of him existed, but I understand the problem of finding such on the web given the ambiguous name. -- Infrogmation 02:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I made an extensive search, but "George Washington -President -General -University -Carver" still came up with nothing useful on Google. —Cuiviénen 03:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Try adding specifics like coffee and Brooklyn. Maybe the best bet is to track down a surviving relative and old family photos. Carcharoth 13:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I've actually found a photo of his granddaughter (Mimi Washington, daughter of G. Washington Jr.) in the New York Times, but nothing yet of the old man. Mimi Washington's husband, Clifford Starrett, by a very peculiar and perhaps not entirely coincidental turn of events, appears to be a former president of the Washington Association of New Jersey. I might have some luck soon with G. Washington Sr., as I've put in a request to the repository of the Brooklyn Eagle at the Brooklyn Public Library.--Pharos 06:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Good luck with that! A picture would be really great. I'm actually curious now as to what he looks like! :-) Incidentially, there are big chunks missing from his life story. What happened to him and his business in the 1930s during the Great Depression is one thing that definitely needs to be tracked down, though I see they were able to advertise on the radio, so they can't have been doing too badly. If you know when his grandchildren were born, you could add that, but I don't know how far biographical articles go with family details. Carcharoth 11:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well done

Woke up this morning, read the article. Shook myself awake. Read the article again. Looked at the date and then it hit me! Nice one Wikipeople... Haven't been fooled yet today, other than this.--Zoso Jade 18:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a real person, you realise? -- Zanimum 18:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE ANY MORESockatume 19:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Truth indeed is stranger than fiction. --Mfree 20:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

yeah this is funny, can't believe how this could became featured. --Emperor Walter Humala · ^{( talk? · help! )} 21:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do you suggest this article doesn't meet the minimum requirements for a featured article? It's NPOV, it's stable, it's verifiable and referenced... topics don't have to be of enormous importance to be featured, they just have to be well written and comprehensive. -- Zanimum 13:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Read some of the Conservapedia articles (note - clicking on Random Article there may bring up non-worksafe pages. See the comment on secondary consumer. Jackiespeel 22:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The fact that this article is four days old is so confusing. --Wafulz 03:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that's quick. I guess Pharos just discovered this funny but true topic a few days ago, and didn't want it to be picked up and spoiled by the media. -- Zanimum 13:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

US 1900 census information

I've been looking at the 1900 US census information added by Richard Arthur Norton, and some more stuff can be added from the scan. See here. The census page shows that at the time of the 1900 census:

• The family of 10 (including servants) were living at 216 Howard Avenue in Brooklyn. Google Maps link.
• There were three servants and one son of two of the servants (a 29-year-old man married to a 24-year-old woman, both from France, who had been married for 6 years and had been in the USA for 9 years, and had had two children, only one of whom was still alive - a 5 year-old boy born in New York). The other servant was a single 30-year-old woman from Belgium, who had been in the USA for 8 years.
• George Washington's 25-year-old sister (born in Belgium) was also living with them. She had been in the USA for 2 years, as opposed to the 3 years the Washingtons had been there.
• The birth months and years of the children and Washington's wife.
• Washington and his wife were 29 and 23, and had been married 4 years. Both were born in Belgium, and both had mixed English and Belgium ancestry. Their children (2 daughters and a son) were 3 and 2 years old, and 10 months old respectively. The first child, their eldest daughter, was born in Belgium in May of the year that the Washingtons emigrated to the USA, but the last two children were born in New York.

How much of this is suitable for the article? Carcharoth 11:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added some of the above. Not the more obscure stuff or the Howard Avenue stuff, because I might have misread the scribble on the census form. Carcharoth 13:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Year of immigration

It clearly says in the 1900 US census that the Washingtons immigrated to the USA in 1897. The article says 1895. Which is correct? Do we have a source for the 1895 figure? Carcharoth 11:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I've changed this to 1897 until a source is produced for the 1895 figure. Carcharoth 13:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

1895 is used in both the New York Times and the New York Herald Tribune obituaries, but I have to say the record we now have of his wedding in Belgium on December 28, 1895 as added by Eugene van der Pijll (thanks, Eugene!) makes the obituaries' immigration date seem rather improbable.--Pharos 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. But when reputable sources conflict it is best to note it somewhere. What is the best place to footnote that some sources say 1895 and some say 1897? I suppose it is possible that he visited the USA in 1895, went back home, married, and came back with wife and child as an immigrant? How common was it to hop back and forth across the pond (by ship, obviously) in those days, I wonder? Carcharoth 11:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the records at http://www.ellisisland.org/, a George Washington, English nationality, age 25y4m, arrived in the US on October 6, 1896, together with his wife, Belgian nationality, 20y1m. I don't think it was at all common to travel back and forth with your wife; in some occupations (merchant, for example) it was common to travel back and forth alone, but I cannot find another record about this same G.W. in those years. -- Eugène van der Pijll 19:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Agh. <stamps foot in frustration> Then why does the US Census of 1900 say they immigrated to the US in 1897? Why are these old records so d*mn inconsistent. <sigh> I suppose ours will seem no better to those a hundred years hence. :-) Carcharoth 23:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

And I thought something fishy was going on here! I registered at that site and had a look myself. There is another record for a George Washington, this time of Belgian nationality, who arrived on 29 May 1897, 26 years old, on the Saint Louis, from Southampton. Marital status is not given. In fact, there are three records for a George Washington, born in 1871, passing through Ellis Island - first a married English one on 6 October 1896 arriving from Antwerp, Belgium, then an unknown marital status Belgian one on 29 May 1897, arriving from Southampton, England, then a married British one (last residence in Toronto, Canada) arriving from Glasgow, Scotland, on 3 October 1918. That last one is probably not our George Washington. I'm going to look for his wife and daughter in the records. And here we are, a Mrs George Washington, Belgian, married, arrived on 6 October 1896, aged 20 years and 1 month, on the Freisland from Antwerp. Manifest number 158 - George Washington, on the same ship, is manifest number 157. Let's find their eldest daughter (Louisa Washington). Hmm. She's not there. Which is not surprising actually, as she was born in May 1897 according to the 1900 US Census - but that same census says she was born in Belgium! Oh dear. I think it is safe to say when Mr and Mrs George Washington arrived, but we should roll back on the birthplace of their daughter, as the sources conflict. Carcharoth 10:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've failed to find the arrival date of the sister that was living with them in 1900, but I have found records for other trips the Washingtons made in and out through Ellis Island, such as a trip to the Bermudas in 1912. Excessive detail, of course, but interesting. Carcharoth 10:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[deindenting] OK. The scans of the original ship manifests for the "1896" entry fail to show the Washingtons. I think this is a transcription error in the Ellis Island database. I'm going to contact them to find out what is going on. Carcharoth 11:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You have to go about 10 pages back (by clicking "next"; the book was filmed backwards...); they are there, but the scan has no extra information compared to the transcription. Except that they had 3 pieces of luggage. -- Eugène van der Pijll 12:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Found it. Thanks. That is page 27 if anyone else is looking. And they are both listed as "occupation: none". I'm still puzzled as to why the US Census says 1897 for "year of immigration to the United States. Maybe they asked how many years, rather than year of entry - three is correct, but counting back three years from June 1900 gives the wrong year. More puzzling is why the eldest daughter is given as born in Belgium in May 1897. Carcharoth 12:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Daughter's name

One thing I forgot to mention - I changed the first daughter's name to Louisa. This is based on trying to read a scribble on the US Census form. Does anyone have a better source? It could be Lavinia, or something similar. Carcharoth 11:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Tidying talk page

Maybe we should archive the April Fools comments and earlier sections, and list the outstanding stuff from the other talk page sections in a new section, so as to tidy up this talk page? Carcharoth 11:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Name - possible move?

I see that "contemporary Belgian records" have him as George Constant Louis Washington. Should the article be moved there? There should at least be a redirect. The same for George Constant Washington. What do people think? Also, I can't access www32.websamba.com/wvlgen/Kortrijk_deel4.htm, and the reference needs to be put in {{citeweb}} format. Carcharoth 11:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah. www32.websamba.com is on the spam blacklist... Carcharoth 11:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Moving to "George Constant Washington", if it is documented that that is correct, sounds reasonable to me. Yes, variations should be redirects. -- Infrogmation 14:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that "George Constant Washington" is any more correct than "George Constant Louis Washington". Difficult one. In cases like this, the important thing is the redirects. Agonising and arguing over where the content resides (the 'title') is unproductive. Now I'm wondering why I raised this in the first place! Carcharoth 14:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Of more concern is that there is another George Washington who was an inventor, namely George Washington Carver, though maybe not, as I see he wasn't really an inventor, and was much more that that anyway. Carcharoth 14:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I haven't seen the middle names used at all in the contemporary American press, so I don't think he really used them during his period of prominence. The short form for George Washington Carver (whom I thoroughly acknowledge is more notable historically) would be George Carver, not George Washington.--Pharos 19:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. Keeping it at the "(inventor)" name is probably best. Carcharoth 11:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Some more information

See http://www.answers.com/topic/1909: "G. Washington soluble coffee powder is introduced by Brooklyn, N.Y., kerosene lamp maker George Constant Louis Washington, 38 (see Kato, 1901). Born in Belgium, Washington settled in Guatemala 2 years ago after making a small fortune in kerosene lamps, and when he noticed a fine powder on the spout of a silver coffee carafe he began experiments that led to the development of the powder for making instant coffee (see Nescafé, 1938)." - it tallies with what is said here (name, Brooklyn, NY, kerosene lamps, Kato, Guatemala, the silver carafe story), and has an extra tidbit of information - namely "making a small fortune in kerosene lamps". Can we find the original source so we can add the "small fortune" bit to the pre-Guatamala story? Carcharoth 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It's from The People's Chronology, a sort of trivia timeline book. I suspect that book is also the (indirect) source of the other very similar timeline entries (mostly under "George Constant Washington") you'll find in Google. It's not the best place to source something from, but I suppose it will do for now.--Pharos 03:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

What's with all the Englishmen in Kortrijk?

I've now read that the local flax industry, for which Kortrijk was known, was "almost exclusively in the hands of English or Irish firms" at about this time. It seems likely this was the trade that George Washington's and Lina Van Nieuwenhuyse's English families were engaged in, but of course I have no evidence of that yet.--Pharos 02:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Death/picture

I was translating this article into dutch and I found out there are two things missing in this article. First of all I was unable to discover where George died and furthermore I wondered if there is a picture of George. 86.94.202.45 12:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no known image of him, unfortunately.Circeus 14:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• Ain't it funny this is featured, and the well-known G.W. isn't? Pinky

Not the Inventor

See Instant Coffee, which includes a reference. He did not come up with the idea, nor the first process. Samalander (talk) 05:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. And this article does not claim that he invented the first process. Quote from this article: "He was not the first to invent an instant coffee process, as Satori Kato's work was a notable precursor, among others, but Washington's invention was the first effort that led to commercial manufacture."--Pharos (talk) 05:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)