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there is no SYNTH in this edit

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it should be restored, Anotherperson123

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Helene&diff=prev&oldid=1250040158 soibangla (talk) 04:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that one source says that public officials are saying that false and misleading information in general is causing confusion, and another source says that one former public official says that what Trump is saying is spreading confusion, but the sentence as it stands says that public officials are saying that false and misleading information spread by Trump is causing confusion. Anotherperson123 (talk) 05:17, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't all three sources mention that Trump is spreading these lies and confusion? Social media and other MAGA sources then repeat it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the disputed content. Let's tweak it, if necessary, to make it work. That's what WP:Preserve says to do. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories which public officials said created confusion and hindered recovery efforts.[1][2][3]

References

  1. ^ Bennett, Geoff (October 7, 2024). "Helene recovery complicated by lies, hoaxes and conspiracy theories". PBS News Hour. Former President Trump has for several days now spread lies and spouted conspiracy theories about the federal government's response to Hurricane Helene. The disinformation is causing confusion among those most desperate for help and answers.
  2. ^ Dale, Daniel (October 7, 2024). "Fact check: Six days of Trump lies about the Hurricane Helene response". CNN. Former President Donald Trump has delivered a barrage of lies and distortions about the federal response to Hurricane Helene.
  3. ^ Yang, Angela (October 7, 2024). "Public officials urge halt to the spread of rampant disinformation around Hurricane Helene". NBC News. Republican and Democratic politicians and officials have in recent days resorted to pleading with people to stop spreading false information related to Hurricane Helene, with many saying that rumors and conspiracy theories are hampering recovery efforts.

I don't find that an adequate reason to remove this edit, PackMecEng

cc: Valjean

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Helene&diff=prev&oldid=1250100623 soibangla (talk) 17:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Soibangla, I didn't get the ping, but still got an email notification. I agree with PackMecEng that this section is not necessary. Please just add this to the previous section and indent and tweak as necessary. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:58, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so the content is OK but the section isn't? so is that good reason to remove the content altogether? soibangla (talk) 18:04, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph is WP:UNDUE here. Drdpw (talk) 18:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
uh-huh, yeah

By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories which public officials said created confusion and hindered recovery efforts.

soibangla (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that content seems to be backed up by the sources, so it should be restored. Let's seek a consensus here. On what basis is it still removed? The sources agree with that wording.-- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:48, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The PBS source is an interview with one former public official who says that what Trump is saying is spreading confusion. The CNN source doesn't mention any public officials saying that Trump is spreading confusion. The NBC source also doesn't mention any public officials explicitly saying that Trump is spreading confusion.
Conspiracy theories are not mentioned.
Also "lies, distortions, disinformation, and conspiracy theories" could be summarized just by saying disinformation as the other things are either synonyms for or types of disinformation. Anotherperson123 (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
NewsHour reported those words as news before the interview began soibangla (talk) 18:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No reason for this to be it's own section, its the content from above. Also don't delete my comment again. PackMecEng (talk) 18:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

but you deleted the whole thing rather than make a simple fix. HAHA! soibangla (talk) 18:32, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My comment here was in relation to making a redundant section on the talk page and your deletion of my comment here. The content itself is undue and a synth of sources. PackMecEng (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sources agree with that wording. If you still see an issue, then provide a tweak that resolves it. Follow PRESERVE by fixing, not deleting. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One of the exceptions to preserve is undue, per WP:DON'T PRESERVE. We don't document EVERYTHING. PackMecEng (talk) 18:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
UNDUE is commonly abused when an editor really means WP:IDONTLIKEIT soibangla (talk) 19:26, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cool story, bro. Not sure what you expect me to do with that personal trivia. PackMecEng (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it was a new topic specifically about your action and your words. then you say it's a section issue rather than a content issue, so when I wondered why you didn't just do an easy fix for the section issue, you now say it's synth and undue, without substantiating either. HAHAHA! soibangla (talk) 18:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because it was not worth having in the article? How is that confusing to you, what can I do to help? PackMecEng (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yeah yeah, sure. nuthin' to see here, folks!

By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories which public officials said created confusion and hindered recovery efforts.

soibangla (talk) 18:59, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about splitting it and placing the sources at the right spots?

By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories. Public officials said this disinformation created confusion and hindered recovery efforts.

How's that? The content is very DUE. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend we adopt this proposal. what do others think? soibangla (talk) 18:13, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same issues as before, so no. PackMecEng (talk) 18:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't proven your point, so it doesn't count. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:31, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't have to like or agree with it. At the end of the day the ones is on you to secure consensus for inclusion and you have failed to do so. You don't get to just discount points you dislike. PackMecEng (talk) 20:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite. See WP:CONSENSUS. Equally, no single editor has a veto. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually yes, the responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. This is not a single editor veto situation either. It was reverted by a few people and challenged by others here and WP:ORN. PackMecEng (talk) 12:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the ORN discussion did not seek to arbitrate a dispute, it requested clarification of synth, those involved there are not involved here. how was the edit reverted by a few people? soibangla (talk) 16:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was reverted by 3 people. Anotherperson123,[1] Myself,[2] and Drdpw.[3] PackMecEng (talk) 17:13, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
some editors seem to have proven they really, really don't like reliable sources calling Trump an outright liar and a conspiracy theorist as he disrupts a life/death crisis for several days. what could possibly cause them to feel that way? I, for one, am baffled. soibangla (talk) 19:42, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just noting that Soibangla brought this issue to WP:ORN where everyone found that it was, in fact, synth.[4] So hopefully that puts this issue to rest and we can move on. PackMecEng (talk) 12:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    with the original phrasing as presented there, not the revised phrasing from Valjean:

    By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories. Public officials said this disinformation created confusion and hindered recovery efforts.

    soibangla (talk) 13:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Correct, the text found to be classic synth by ORN was:
    By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories which public officials said created confusion and hindered recovery efforts
    vs the text that Valjean is now offering:
    By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories. Public officials said this disinformation created confusion and hindered recovery efforts.
    To me they are pretty much the same with the same exact issue, though you are free to get wider opinions of course. PackMecEng (talk) 13:18, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @PackMecEng: since SYNTH can sometimes be subtle, hence the disagreements among very experienced editors here and at NORN, please propose some wording that would resolve the issue. I provided an attempt. What do you think of it? Did I go far enough to resolve it, or not far enough? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


here's a couple more sources:

  • "Donald Trump's many, many lies about Hurricane Helene, debunked". Vox (website). Since Hurricane Helene decimated parts of western North Carolina last week, former President Donald Trump has seized on the tragedy to perpetuate lies about the federal response, sowing chaos and confusion as officials scramble to help those affected
  • "Survivors wait for aid as Trump's lies help cloud Helene response". France 24. Ten days after Helene carved a path of destruction through the southeastern United States, many residents are still cut off -- from federal assistance, from electricity and running water, and, crucially, from accurate information. Trump and others have poured false claims and conspiracy theories into that vacuum, targeting in particular the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) -- which, when a US state asks for help, puts the power of the federal government behind the disaster response. The result? Anger, on top of grief, loss and devastation. soibangla (talk) 16:55, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
with four sources now explicitly stating Trump lied and spread conspiracy theories, do editors still maintain that Trump lied and spread conspiracy theories is UNDUE for inclusion? soibangla (talk) 17:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories." This part is absolutely relevant and due.
However the rules seem to be that the second part: "Public officials said this disinformation created confusion and hindered recovery efforts."; cannot be included in this form without sources that explicitly connect Trump's lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories with the lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories that public officials say are hindering recovery efforts. The connection seems pretty clear to me, but we aren't allowed to say it without a clear and unambiguous source that says so. Largely Legible Layman (talk) 17:41, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
at this point I am requesting buy-in that the edit is DUE, so we can knock that out of the way toward inclusion soibangla (talk) 17:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At this point, it would probably be best for the information to be included in the recently created season conspiracy theory article, rather than in this one. It is a better fit there. Drdpw (talk) 02:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Coming here from ORN, I would say that the first sentence is due and should be included on this article, though I would prefer to drop the list of synonyms to just either disinformation or conspiracy theories for brevity, we're supposed to summarise. As for the second sentence, I would drop the word this from Valjean's proposal, but I don't really see any other issues myself. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:44, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

if we cannot reach a consensus with this tiny group by Friday, I intend to open an RFC to draw more participants into the discussion soibangla (talk) 02:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I recently added a section that copied over 1 paragraph from the conspiracy article for the page that was removed by Drdpw. He also removed it from the Hurricane Milton article as well. I believe it should be re-added and this edit possibly included within it. BootsED (talk) 13:38, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The conspiracy theory material belongs in the conspiracy theory article. That is what the article for. Drdpw (talk) 13:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. However, a one-paragraph mention of the conspiracy theories is due owing to the amount of them associated with Hurricane Helene and Milton as demonstrated by the large amount of RS on the topic. The page on the conspiracy theories also specifically highlights their impact in regard to Helene and Milton. We are not repeating every single conspiracy theory on this page. BootsED (talk) 14:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maria?

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The top post kind of beats around the bush with Maria, mentioning it as an Atlantic Hurricane and putting the mention of USA next to Katrina(which does specify Mainland only). It's technically correct, but the weird phrasing is confusing and implies Maria has nothing to do with the US, and there's a lot of plenty making that mistake as of late. 2604:3D09:1F7F:8B00:6110:B27E:C4D0:9BDE (talk) 21:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably because Maria didn’t impact the mainland. Many U.S. statistics do not include Puerto Rico. Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 18:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HTS

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Should it be mentioned that the 70 mph wind gust at HTS (during Helene) was the second highest gust at the station. Source: https://www.weather.gov/rlx/2024-September-27-Helene Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 17:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, scratch that question. I’ve went ahead and boldly added it. Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 18:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

International aid

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@Homerethegreat: I wanted to let you know I removed the 'International aid' section & 'Israel' subsection. Not all verifiable information has to be included and I felt it disrupted the flow of the article, particularly since it was a very short section. Just wanted to let you know in case you had planned on expanding it. Cowlan (talk) 17:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any estimates of the damage toll besides the Florida estimate?

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I'd imagine it's at least in the tens of billions in North Carolina alone. NesserWiki (talk) 10:24, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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