Talk:Leon Trotsky/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Ice Cream?

When I typed in Leon Trotsky I got an jumbled article about saying that he was an Ice Cream man on a BBC show. Did a sysop delete this article? Vladimir Stalin 10:01am EST 4.1.07

Let's hope so, since he was not an ice-cream man for the BBC. --Duncan 08:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, he was an early film actor when he was exiled in America. --Eqdoktor 04:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
You're kidding? Like in what? --AdamM 01:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
In 1916-1917 when Trotsky was exiled in the New York, USA, he supplemented his meagre revolutionary income by hiring himself out as a movie extra at the one of early movie studios filming in NYC. One movie that he was believed to be in was called, "My official wife". The script called for "revolutionary types" and what better actor for this bit part than the founder and first commander of the Communist Red Army! In it, a Trotsky can be seen over-acting ferociously (which was standard in those early days of silent movies) and mugging the camera in all his scenes. Soon after, the Russian Revolution of 1917 happened and he had to leave the glamorous world of movie film-making and work on creating the Russian Red Army... :)
I picked up this bit of movie trivia from, "The Guiness Book of Films" and there are some references to this trivia on the Internet. Alas... Some people declare this delicious bit of trivia as an urban legend, but since most silent movies are lost/destroyed; there is no conclusive proof that he wasn't a bit-part movie actor either :) --Eqdoktor 07:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Myth is quite the word. Trotsky was in New York for, what, seven weeks? It seems quite unlikely. We'd need proof of it, rather than conclusive proof that is it untrue. --Duncan 10:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if it helps but this was cut from the article on 2nd March 2007 (rightly or wrongly):-

Rumors of appearances in American films

- There is an urban legend that Trotsky was once an extra in one or more American movies. This legend is based on two separate episodes. - - First, there is a minor 1930s documentary about Hollywood history which is shown by the cable television channel Turner Classic Movies from time to time. It includes an 8-10 second excerpt from a silent movie (Thought to be "My Official Wife" made 1916-1917, when Trotsky briefly lived in New York City) with a Trotsky look-alike making a brief appearance as an extra. The announcer claims, perhaps in jest since the whole episode is played for laughs, that it is indeed Trotsky supplementing his income while in New York in early 1917. Kevin Brownlow argued that it couldn't possibly be Trotsky.[1] - - The second episode is described here: - - ::Recorded on the Fox lot in Hollywood on January 27, 1928, the Dedication of "Park Row" footage constitutes one of the earliest synchronous-sound newsreels. [...] However, the real star here is this "Leon Trotsky of the Soviet Republic!" Exactly what Trotsky is doing in Hollywood seems to bewilder even those standing behind him in this film. More bewildering still to most viewers in 1928 is the fact that his Russian goes untranslated. Is this confirmation that it is really he? It looks like Trotsky, albeit a little younger and leaner than he was at the time. While we, like they, might have wondered, for the Russian-speaker the joke is given away immediately. The actor's words (delivered haltingly, with a Slavic accent) can be translated as:

- :::Comrades, by the irony of fate I play the role of Trotsky in the new Raoul Walsh production by the Fox studio. In this production, he will show the very best anyone has ever seen. Raoul Walsh is famous for this staging of What Price Glory?, and in this production he'll show something truly special. [Translation by Alexander Ogden and Judith Kalb]

I was sad to see it get deleted (didn't follow the discussion, if there was any) but given the article's excellent serious detail and length, the trivia probably has no place. Andysoh 16:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Mother

Was Trotsky's mother, Anna Bronstein, also Jewish? The article states that his father was Jewish but does not state whether his mother was also. Badagnani 20:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes she was Jewish, as well as being from the middle class. Consequently, her family did not like her marraige to David Bronstein, as he was a peasant and he was not as committed to Judaism they were.

Sugrnspice (talk) 07:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Numerology

Has somebody noticed here that Trotsky was born the day the Communists came to power in 1917 (November 7) and was killed the day they lost power in 1991 (August 21)? A pretty funny coincidence. Uocila 11:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Get outVTNC (talk) 01:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Communists did not lost power in August 21.--79.120.69.77 (talk) 07:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Where did the catergories go?

I went to the bottom of the page, and half the catergories are gone. All there is in the categories is 1879 births and 1940 deaths. Where did everything else go? Like, where's the part about him being an atheist? Was he religious? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wearetherevolution (talk • contribs) 06:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you think? Of course he wasn't religious, he was a marxist. You can't be marxist and religious.80.167.85.23 (talk) 16:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Snippet on Emmanuel Goldstein?

The character in 1984 is clearly based off in part to Trotsky and Emma Goldman, what with him helping found Oceania with "Big Brother" and later being exiled and thus speaking out against the Union. The part that described his facial features says it all.--The Youth Counselor (talk) 09:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Break-up Into Sub Articles

I would advise whoever is working on this article to break Trotsky's biography into sub-articles as the article has reached an enourmous length. --Xtreambar (talk) 17:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Still needs expansion if anything, it is not only incomplete but still smaller than articles like Paul McCartney and Jesus. Questioning81 (talk) 21:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Biography Needs Sources

The biographical section here leaves a lot to be desired in terms of references. If this article is your baby, I'd suggest you take some time to attribute sources. On a figure of this much historical significance, and with such political implications for its content, we must be particularly weary of either vandalism in the bio, or hero-worship/revisionism that isn't backed up by the record. Take care. Jordanp (talk) 07:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Eugenics

Trotsky directly references and supports eugenics in his speech If America Should Go Communist[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by VTNC (talk • contribs) 09:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

A throwaway remark at the end of an article written at a time when eugenics was still regarded as being a genuine science and had not been discredited by the travesties of the Nazis. Even then he clearly distinguishes what he has in mind from the pseudo-science of the Nazis:
"While the romantic numskulls of Nazi Germany are dreaming of restoring the old race of Europe’s Dark Forest to its original purity, or rather its original filth, you Americans, after taking a firm grip on your economic machinery and your culture, will apply genuine scientific methods to the problem of eugenics."
So he doesn't recant his position, he just justifies it as "not being done right." Nice. VTNC (talk) 08:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
It would be a serious distortion to raise this to a central aspect of Trotsky's politics. --Mia-etol (talk) 09:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

@VTNC: Up until the end of World War II and the revelations about the Nazi experiments led to the discrediting of eugenics it was supported by political figures right across the board from right to left. To interpret Trotsky's remarks retrospectively on the basis of present knowledge would be seriously ahistorical. And BTW it wasn't a speech, it was an article. In 1934 Trotsky was not in a position to make speeches anywhere due to the conditions of his political asylum. --Mia-etol (talk) 10:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Trotsky was nominated by Lenin to be the leader of the first government eugenics' association in the world.See this site: [[2]] to read something about this fact.Agre22 (talk) 00:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC)agre22

The Great Purge

The first paragraph of this article states that Trotsky was exiled from USSR in the Great Purge, while in fact that happened about ten years earlier. The Great Purge, that means the period 1936-1938. Trotsky had to leave the country in 1928. Volga Burlak (talk) 11:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Democratic centralism

The problem with the claim that Lenin created democratic centralism is that it isn't true. The idea of democratically deciding about policy and then all members implementing the policy decide existed already in German Social Democracy. Indeed none of the ideas that Lenin presented in What is to be done were particularly new or controversial - it was the policy of all Iskra supporters - including Martov, Plekhanov and Trotsky - before the 2nd Party Congress. It was also the structure adopted by Rosa Luxemburg's party in Poland (although if anything this was less democratic and more centralist than any of Lenin's organisations, despite her critique in Organisational Questions of Russian Social Democracy). The myth of Lenin's evil genius and the original sin of democratic centralism is basically a later myth - this is not to say that Lenin didn't indulge in all sorts of manoeuvres, some of which were fairly dubious, but then again so did all of his opponents. --Mia-etol (talk) 17:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference however since Lenin also drew upon the example of the Narodniki and its intellectual figures Bakunin and Nechayev. The Narodniki had been a tightly organized group able to operate underground in a way which the German Social Democrats never approached. But the Narodniki had had a very shallow concept of political, social and economic theory. Hence they were suppressed. Lenin argued that Marxist theory must be the intellectual basis for the new party, but he also invoked "the revolutionaries of the Seventies" when arguing in WHAT IS TO BE DONE? for a new type of party. That heritage of the 1870s and Lenin's attitude towards it did indeed distinguish Lenin from Kautsky, Bernstein, Plekhanov or Martov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.134.80 (talk) 12:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Kronstadt Uprising

Why no mention of Kronstadt? Non Trots know: LT was only different from Stalin in that LT lost the inter struggles in the CPSU(B).

"The Anarchist Emma Goldman, who was in Petrograd at the time of the rebellion, criticised Leon Trotsky for his role in the suppression of the rebellion, arguing that this made his later criticism of Stalin's regime hypocritical.[14] Trotsky, however, responded that Goldman's criticisms were mainly perfunctory, and ignored the differing social composition between the pro-Bolshevik Kronstadt Uprising of 1917 and the mainly "petty bourgeois" Kronstadt Uprising of 1921." [3] Arealsocialist (talk) 20:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Despite allegations to the contrary Trotsky wasn't actually personally involved in the suppression of Kronstadt, although he did accept "political responsibility" as a member of the leadership of the state and the party at the time. I see no reason why it shouldn't be mentioned since it did come up in political discussions and debates at the time of the Moscow Trials. --Mia-etol (talk) 06:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The article asserts that "The claim that the Kronstadt rebels were 'counterrevolutionary' has been supported by evidence of White army and French government support for the Kronstadt sailors' March rebellion," and cites an article from "Marxisme Online," which makes reference to the "Memorandum on the Question of Organising an Uprising in Kronstadt" to back up its claim. I think it's important to point out that the contents of the Memorandum are deeply controversial and are heavily disputed, most notably by historian Paul Avrich, who has written extensively on this topic. Frisked (talk) 23:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Trotsky's name translated

Lev Trosky should be translated Leo Trotsky like Leo Tolstoy. Leon is a misnomer. A widely used misnomer but a mistake none the less. His name should be written Leo Trotsky not Leon Trotsky. (Alex2706 (talk) 19:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC))

Wikipedia uses the most common name in English (see WP:NC), which is undoubtedly Leon. The name Leo is extremely rarely used. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
In addition numerous books and articles were published using the name "Leon Trotsky" during Trotsky's lifetime and with his knowledge, so it is fair to say that he accepted this as the English version of his name. --Mia-etol (talk) 06:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The article starts "Leon Trotsky (Russian: ru-Leon Trotsky.ogg Лев Давидович Трóцкий (help·info), Lev Davidovich Trotsky, also transliterated Leo, Lyev, Trotski, Trotskij, Trockij and Trotzky)" (emphasis added). This is incorrect, the Russian says "Lev" when transliterated. It might be translated to Leo or Lyev or Leon but the cyrillic letters don't form those words. Pbhj (talk) 13:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

In the Trotsky in art section, there could be a sentence that reads: The character of Nicolas Salmanovitch Rubashov in Arthur Koestler's novel "Darkness At Noon" is based on Leon Trotsky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bloise (talk • contribs) 01:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

In the movie The Death of Trotsky, Trotsky is shown surrounded by faithful American followers, who refer to him as "L.D." - short for Liev Davidovich. Das Baz, aka Erudil 18:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


A film dialogue is hardly reliable historical evidence; and I seem to recall that this film had difficulty distinguishing between Diego Rivera and David Siqueiros, with unfortunate plot consequences. So this is not an acceptable basis for inserting the claim in the article. RolandR (talk) 18:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Those are good points. The "L.D." monicker would have to be considered under Trotsky in Art, or Trotsky in Popular Culture, not Trotsky in History.

And I would like to know more about the Rivera-Siqueiros matter. Das Baz, aka Erudil 16:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the movie The Death of Trostsky should have its own article. Das Baz, aka Erudil 19:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Last words

Trotsky was writing a biography of Stalin. In the Preface, Trotsky said, "Stalin always hated ideas. For him, the idea was...". At this point, Trotsky was killed.

  • And what's the source for this? - Skysmith (talk) 09:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The actual biography of Stalin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.108.96 (talk) 10:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
See "Stalin, An Appraisal of the Man and His Influence", by Leon Trotsky,
Harper and Bros., 1946. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.108.96 (talk) 10:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Predicted own death

Trotsky predicted his own death in full detail. His said of Stalin, "He seeks to aim, not at the ideas of his opponent, but at his skull." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.207.21 (talk) 11:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Article Source?

I'm quite new to Wikipedia, etc., so please forgive me if I'm missing something. This entire article appears to be copied word for word from a biography on Trotsky entitled Leon Trotsky Bolshevik Revolutionary, Fililquarian Publishing/Biographiq C 2008. I don't see this source listed anywhere, though each note from the biography is dutifully included in the entry. Is this normal/acceptable? ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Syr44english (talk • contribs) 03:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I have never heard of this publisher befote, and they list no author for their book. Since this article has been written by dozens of independent editors, over several years, it is clearly not a direct copy of an anonymous title published in 2008. I strongly suspect that the book you refer to is actually an unattributed copy of the Wikipedia article. In fact, by comparing any differences, it should be possible to establish exactly when it was copied from our article. RolandR (talk) 01:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
The publisher seems to specialise in reproducing copyright free materials. RolandR is certainly right that this article is not copied from a single source, therfore their article must be copied from here. We should be careful not to reference it as a primary source! --Duncan (talk) 10:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I should have noted earlier that I had already come to the same conclusion, and had reported the publisher on the GFDL Notice Board. RolandR (talk) 11:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Trotsky, descent, background

At least two users here seemed to be offended by the statement "Although Bronstein is a Jewish name, Trotsky's family was not religious" as opposed to a construct of the "was born in a Jewish family" type. I don't have an issue with either wording. Still, I don't understand one of the comments made. Obviously, in order to be a target of antisemitism (or any other kind of prejudice), it is not necessary to be something (whatever that is); it is only needed to be perceived as something.

For example, some may think that Georg Cantor may have been a target of antisemitism at some point in his career; certainly, a text from his father is read by some as indicating that possibility. Now, Cantor is a predominantly Jewish name, but Cantor's ancestors turn out to be particularly hard to trace. (He himself was a Protestant theologian whose father and whose mother happened to be a Protestant and a Catholic, respectively.) Does this mean that Cantor could not possibly have been a target of antisemitism? No.

At the end, what we have to be careful about is the following. Antisemitism (and other forms of racial and racial-like prejudice) defines its targets in a certain way. It is best to report on the effect that antisemitism had on this or that historical figure, without falling into the trap of defining this or that historical figure as antisemitism does.

Of course, somebody can be a target from antisemitism *and* come from a strongly Judaic background that it might eventually be worth mentioning, but that does not seem to be Trotsky's case.

On a different subject - antisemitism was certainly a factor in White Russian propaganda against Trotsky, but Stalin's hatred for Trotsky may have preceded his descent into antisemitism (and other forms of paranoia). It does not seem to be the case that Stalin was antisemitic in his youth, though he was never forcefully opposed to antisemitism.

To go back to another of the comments made ("Trotsky's Jewish background is well-documented"): Trotsky's (eventual) *descent* from Jews is well-documented, as is his (relative) *lack* of a Judaic or Yiddishist background. (Or: Jewish descent vs. Jewish background, if you prefer no further distinctions to be made.)

Quite aside from the wording in the introduction (which is what these other users and myself have been going back and forth about) - the tags at the bottom are going a little far. Do we want people to be divided into binary categories b criteria based on blood (or descent, if you prefer)? Are we going to have lists of Jews? This is troublesome. Feketekave (talk) 15:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

After all this solicitor's words. If the revealing of a real Trotsky's nationality is a real problem for somebody's till nowadays - why we don't get the part 'Nationality' off this page after all, and will we made the 'Citizenship' for a change? In Russian Empire were living near 100 nomber of peoples. 80% of them were Russians, but others were near 20 mlns. of total population. A few of them was of Jewish descent (and not all - of Jewish religion). They were called 'жиды'/Jews in Official Files. Trotsky was one of them. IS IT A PROBLEM? Is it an offence - to be a Jew? I don't think so. But, please: 'don't write a rot' - he wasn't Russian by Nationality, just by Citizenship. --AlexZ-n (talk) 06:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Trotsky's ashes stolen and baked in cookies

Eighty eight years of the day Trotsky directed the suppression of the anarchist uprising in Krondstadt, a group of bandits scaled the walls of his former house in Mexico City during the late hours at night. We broke the lock on his mausoleum and we expropriate the content inside it: a silver large vase that bears the inscription of his name, wrapped in the red scarf that he carried around the neck, containing the ashes of the corpse inside. We replace with care the lock in the monument with a reproduction that was similar in the appearance and escaped into the night.

http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=2009trotsky-cookies

Lenerd (talk) 02:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

http://shiftshapers.gnn.tv/blogs/31747/Trotsky_s_ashes_stolen_and_baked_in_cookiesLenerd (talk) 02:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Trotsky's ashes are buried in his grave, not in his house. There's a photo in the article. Though the anarchist story is mildly amusing. Cadriel (talk) 11:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I've removed this. There's just one statement, translated by anarchist blogs, and no third-party verification. I assume it's an April Fool's. If true, it would be really big news. --Duncan (talk) 12:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Photos of the theft

http://bayimg.com/aApLiAABa http://bayimg.com/AapllAAbA

a photo of the grave from the rear (where the door is)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cdssQZkesk...200/trot06.jpg

a photo of the grave from the front http://farm1.static.flickr.com/32/54...g?v=1129919094

Lenerd (talk) 02:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, until you get sites that aren't anarchists claiming to have done this, independent verification in a reliable third party source of the grave desecration, and present it in an NPOV way, this simply shouldn't be in the entry. Cadriel (talk) 02:06, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Those photos could be of almost anything. This obvious Hoax doesn't even deserve mention as far as I can tell, any more than any other anonymous april fools joke posted on the internet does. --Mista-X (talk) 02:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
a photo of the grave from the rear (where the door is) http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cdssQZkeskc/SKiIi8jNSDI/AAAAAAAAATM/0wQnIW6KPhM/s200/trot06.jpg a photo of the grave from the front http://farm1.static.flickr.com/32/54629614_2b28c93dfd.jpg?v=1129919094 Lenerd (talk) 14:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Lenerd, is there a single article about the incident that doesn't simply repeat the claims of some anarchists to have done this? Blurry photographs aren't verifiable by Wikipedia standards. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability and, if you have any information that would be a valid source, we can discuss how any such addition to the article would be handled. But the photos and descriptions posted thus far definitely aren't something we can put in the article. Cadriel (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Trotsky in American Silent Movies When He Was Supposed To Be In Russia

Trotsky is credited with appearing in at least two silent films in 1914 and 1916 respectively. In the 1914 film 'My Official Wife'(1914) a still photograph shows "Trotsky" in the company of actress Clara Kimball Young, the star of the movie. The still can be found in Daniel Blum's 1953 book "Pictorial History of the Silent Film" page 60. Trotsky is also given credit for appearing in 'The Kiss of Hate'(1916) starring Ethel Barrymore by "The Barrymores" author James Kotsilibas-Davis. Both films are long lost, so it's impossible to evaluate them as well as validate them. These are just two films Trotsky is credited with appearing in when he wasn't supposed to be in the United States. Given his nomadic nature perhaps he was in the country. The still of "Trotsky" with Clara Kimabll Young certainly looks like Leon Trotsky. Koplimek (talk) 17:58, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

FYI

If people who watch this page are also interested in how Wikipedia is governed, be sure to check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Advisory_Council_on_Project_Development . Slrubenstein | Talk 13:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Trotsky in the Civil War

I'm not particularly knowledgeable on the subject, but there seems to be little moral evaluation of Trotsky, in particular his sheer ruthlessless during the Civil War, one of the most brutal conflicts in recent history. The description of his role in the civil war - given that it appears to have been his most significant contribution - doesn't appear to examine his policies in detail and the long quotes are of limited interest. Perhaps an argument could be made that his ruthlessness was at least partially necessary, but there isn't any attempt to evaluate his role in detail. Is there any mention of the famous decimation policy? The article reads as if it was written or repeatedly edited to create a generally sympathetic portrayal.

For instance, see this review of Robert Service's biography of Trotsky mentioning some of his civil war policies:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/non-fiction/article6876331.ece 

DF 194.125.115.232 (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

This is a link to a review of a biography of Trotsky, that amounts to an anti-Trotskyist rant by the notorious anti-Trostsky historical falsifer R Service that is also riddelled with basic factual errors 

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/nov2009/serv-n11.shtml  —Preceding unsigned comment added by FDoric (talk • contribs) 11:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

"Leyba"

Someone changed the lede of the article to read

Leon Trotsky (Russian: Лев Давидович Трóцкий (help·info), Ukrainian: Лев Давидович Троцький (Lev Davidovich Trotsky, also translated Leo, Lyev, Trotski, Trotskij, Trockij and Trotzky) November 7, [O.S. October 26] 1879 – August 21, 1940), born Leyba Davidov(ich) Bronstein (Russian and Ukrainian: Лейба Давидович Бронштéйн)[1]...

In the references section, we see the citation:

1 ^ See photocopy of Trotsky police file in v.IV 'Russian Arkhiv', Moscow, 1989. Thus the translator's ref. '1' in Trotsky's 'My Life' is partly inaccurate.

This is a highly dubious reference, although various anti-semitic texts do say that Trotsky's "real" name was "Leyba". The only Russian books that mention a "Leyba Bronstein" are extremely right-wing, anti-semitic pieces seeking to give Trotsky the most stereotypical Yiddish-sounding name in order to better fit the conspiracy-theory notion of Jewish Bolshevism. (Many Bolsheviks took pseudonyms as a result of their revolutionary activities.) While it is not possible to prove a negative, in all my research on Bolsheviks in general and Trotsky in particular I haven't come across any English-language sources calling Trotsky "Leyba." Not surprisingly, this version of Trotsky's name was removed from the Russian Wikipedia as WP:OR a long time ago, and it was repeatedly noted that the only people who call Trotsky "Leyba" are anti-semites. I'm going to remove it from the Anglophone version also, as I believe it doesn't really belong unless verifiable sources for it are found. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Pretty funny to read that. Do you now that the State Language of late Russian Empire was Russian? Or - are you really DO think that the Police officers in RE were writing their files in English - just for your pleasere? Orwell was in the top right, saying, that for Commi's history is just the matter of today's opinion. :( Alex Z-n —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.186.220.97 (talk) 08:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Alleged Opposition to German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact

Hitler came to power in 1933. Trotsky died in 1925. The non-aggression pact was not signed until 1939.

With all due respect, the statement that "Trotsky also opposed Stalin's peace agreements with Adolf Hitler in the 1930s” is inconsistent with these date facts. I am not disputing that Trotsky was "An early advocate of Red Army intervention against European fascism", only that Stalin and Hitler’s pact occurred after Trotsky’s death, so that it was impossible for Trotsky to oppose that particular pact. However, it is quite correct to say that Trotsky opposed German-Soviet peace agreements in the form of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which was signed in 1918, since Trotsky was very much alive at the time, and who was a (reluctant) signatory to the treaty. I will amend the article to reflect this. Note that I have no axe to grind. I am simply trying to be accurate from the perspective of the dates involved. Please check it out carefully.

See Stalin, Hitler, and Soviet–German relations before 1941 pages for corroboration.


Deceglie (talk) 14:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Trotsky died in 1940. I have no idea where you got the 1925 date from. His opposition to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is very well documented in his works. I reverted the edit since the original facts are quite well known. Cadriel (talk) 16:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
You're right!! I goofed. Sincerest apologies.  :-) Deceglie (talk) 17:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Contributions to Theory

Surely Trotsky's contributions to theory go beyond the Permanent Revolution and the United Front. He also developed ideas around the Soviet Union being a Degenerated workers' state, entryism around the 'French turn', his analysis of fascism and the Transitional Program.Votemoose (talk) 12:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Ice axe / icepick

I remember reading at some point that the implement that Trotsky was killed with wasn't a mountaineering ice axe / icepick, but rather an icepick for breaking up ice that a barman might use before putting it in a drink. Is there any evidence for this? Am I completely wrong? I always thought it strange that there would be a mountaineering icepick in Mexico... VenomousConcept (talk) 10:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

According to Robert Service, it was an ice axe, not an ice pick. Apparently the ice axe had its handle sawn back, and the assassin also carried a dagger with it under his raincoat (on a sunny day). The idea was to commit the deed and get away undetected. Remember, this was a "professional" hit, not a target of opportunity done with improvised weapons.--Pharos (talk) 13:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
And remarkably, this particular item has been in museum exhibitions (with photo).--Pharos (talk) 13:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Stalin had been planning this for years. There was no need to use a weapon found in the same country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Intheafternoon (talk • contribs) 14:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

"Started" Pravda

Trotsky did not "start" Pravda—he was invited to edit it in 1908. Can someone make this fix? Here's the ref.: http://www.jstor.org/stable/150476?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents Pravda started in 1903. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.120.11 (talk) 20:38, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, corrected now. Ceoil (talk) 21:06, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Rehabilitation

90.193.111.247 (talk) 21:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC) I thought Trotsky was rehabiliated by the Soviet Union in 2001?

The Soviet Union was dissolved in 1991. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It says here that Trotsky's reputation was officially "rehabilitated" by the Russian government in 2001. Should that not be added to the article? 90.193.118.79 (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

When Trotsky was nine, his father sent him to Odessa to be educated

according to his autobiography 'my life` his father was not very keen on education; on the contrary he even opposed to send him to odessa. so this sentence should be rephrased. --ArazZeynili (talk) 19:01, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Split with Lenin (1903–1904)

Because this sentence 

  Lenin later denounced Trotsky as a "Judas",[2] a "scoundrel"[3] and a "swine".[4]

references denouncements made in 1911 or later, it seems misplaced in the section for 1903-1904.

Zulu Kane (talk) 17:38, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Religion

Trotsy was Jewish even though he renounced Judaism, because Judaism is an ethno-religion. A copt who renounces coptic Christianity is still a copt.Equivocasmannus (talk) 19:23, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

It's true that he could still be considered Jewish, but Judaism was not his religion, and calling him Jewish in the infobox would mischaracterize his philosophy. Symphonic Spenguin (talk) 19:34, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:10, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Replacing Crimea photo with Kronstadt photo

Crimea is not mentioned once in this article, so I replaced the Evpatoria red terror photo with one of soldiers charging Kronstadt - something Trotsky actually organized. @Tes712ngombe: you added the photo back, stating that "Trotsky's Red terror is mentioned in the article." However, the quote from Trotsky has no apparent relationship to fighting in Evpatoria or Crimea. If we can find that and add more information that'd be great, but the photograph makes it look like Trotsky organized those events in Crimea, which for now at least, seems to be false. -Darouet (talk) 13:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I would tend to agree. The article as-is doesn't make it clear what connection Trotsky had with the Crimea affair other than that he supported the Red Terror. But I think it would be useful to consider each photo on its own merits rather than trying to decide between the two. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:10, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Bronstein / Bronshtein

The romanization Bronshtein looks weird, I've never seen it before in relation to Trotsky. The article inconsistently uses Bronstein and Bronshtein throughout, but for some reason the odd Bronshtein spelling appears in the heading. Everyone knows that 'stein' (in German) is pronounced with a 'sh', what is the purpose of using a pedantic transliteration of the cyrillic? Is there a precedence for this spelling anywhere? 31.54.33.97 (talk) 10:50, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Google Ngram overwhelmingly prefers "Bronstein". Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:15, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
The "shtein" transliteration is not common. See also Bronstein; there's no Bronshtein surname page. Qzd (talk) 14:07, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Photo

There is a photograph of Trotsky, being cremated. This should be in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.206.35.221 (talk) 11:29, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Incomplete description of "permanent revolution" theory

Currently, the article does not explain Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution fully and it gives an incomplete position of what the different factions were actually claiming.

Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution was that the Bolshevik Revolution would fail if there were not simultaneous revolutions across the most economically developed European nations and only in such a scenario could it be entrenched firmly. He did not believe that socialism could be upheld in one country and then be forwarded internationally from there.

From reading the article you get the idea that Trotsky advocated some sort of eternal revolution and Stalin just said, wow there, lets just have Socialism in One Country and call it a day. That isn't what they were arguing about at all, or what either term means. It isn't about nationalism, as is crypt-suggested by anti-Stalin polemicists or spotty kids with anarchy t-shirts. Additionally, the term "Stalinism" is anti-communist/imperialist propaganda, it exists only as a snarl word or epithet, there is no such thing and so it should not be in the intro of this article. Claíomh Solais (talk) 11:25, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

This would be solved if a link to the Wikipedia article on permanent revolution was added. Oh yeah - it is.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.41.57 (talk) on April 27th 2017.

a Soviet politician who engineered the transfer of all political power to the Soviets.[2]

Is it practice to cite the subject of the article themselves as verification of their achievements? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.189.191.133 (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Not anymore.FourLights (talk) 03:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Definite article

To maintain consistency with the Wikipedia page titled Name of Ukraine and with style guides from both the AP and NY Times, should the article "the" be removed from the statement indicating that Trotsky was born in Ukraine? Tmfast (talk) 12:03, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I could make argument either way. Ukraine became an independent nation on 24 Aug 1991; reference to Ukraine as "the Ukraine" would be Ukraine pre-Independence when it was part of the Soviet Union or Russia. Historically referring to "the Ukraine" pre-Independence could be seen like like referring to the United States before Independence as the British Colonies. I would drop the "the" for any post-Independence reference. I witnessed responses to a Ukrainian emigre who referred to his homeland as "the Ukraine" (he had left 1975 pre-Independence); they were scathing for his use of "the"; oddly his harshest critics had English or American sounding screen names. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 13:42, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

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First Name

His first name was Laiba (Лейба), spelling "Leiba". It was meget typical jewish name at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juliachristensen7 (talk • contribs) 10:19, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

His first name was Lev, yet the article is titled Leon and refers to him throughout by this name. There may be a good reason for this, but none is given. An explanation is required.182.247.184.52 (talk) 01:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Directly taken from the text:"Until this point in his life, Trotsky had used his birth name—Lev or Leon Bronstein." In other words, his name was both Lev and Leon. Special:Contributions/86.185.41.57 27 April 2017 (missing signature added manually).
“Lev” is the Russian transliteration of “Лев”, while “Léon” is the French translation (just like “Peter” is the English translation of “Piotr”). That was very common, as Russia was still using the French transliteration rules in its passports, and “Léon” was naturally translated in English as Leon.
Furthermore, a strong reason to use the current spelling is that he often signed his name “Léon Trotsky” (he even used it in his passport) when not using the cyrillic alphabet (notice the French accent on “Léon”, which is not that surprising when you know that he was fluent in the language — and even less surprising when you know that he spent many years in France). He also sometime signed “Leon Trotsky” even if “L. Trotsky” was far more common, but he obviously would have no problem with the current spelling in Wikipedia if he was still alive. You can also notice that Léon and lion are very similar, and actually they are related as they used to be leo in French and English (in Russian and most slavic languages, “лев“ still also means “lion”, so you just learned a very common slavic word).
I don't know why he sometime used the accent and sometime he didn't (except of course when he was in the USA), nor why that spelling is not even mentionned in the article even if he used it, but it is a minor point compared to the radical change to “Lev”, which is far less known in the occident and never used by him in the latine alphabet. Here some images of his signature (note that you can't trust Google for the frequency usage of his signature with an accent, as it seems unable to distinguish them and to under-represent the version with the accent — of course, the signatures in cyrillic are the most common one).
— 184.163.78.39 (talk) 19:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
The Yiddish name Leib is accompanied with the Hebrew name Arye - meaning lion. The Jewish name is given at circumsision on the 8th day after birth, when the child is exactly 1 week old, and the Jew is then called with that name to the Torah later on, at their Bar Mitzva. So his "Jewish name" was Arye Leib. Thus Leon is not a "change" of the name from Lev - the Russian pronuciation of the Yiddish name, but rather the way he was called in Russian and French where he lived and in the languages he spoke.
Similarly the name Moses is poronounced Moshe in the original Hebrew, Eugene is pronounced Yevgeny in Russian but Yoojeen in Romanian, and George is pronouced Jorj in English Yurgen in Swedish and Khorkhyay in spanish, while originally it is a mispronunciation of the Hebrew Yossef, pronounced Joseph in English, and Yozef in German. The name Jacob is even worse: Originally Ya'akov in Hebrew, Yanki in Yiddish (Yanki Doodle is Jacob David in Yiddish), Yakob in Swedish, Yago in Spanish, Zhaak in French, Jack in the US, and Koby or Jecky in modern Hebrew.פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 09:36, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Idea to raise the article's status to Featured article

Dear Contributors, I have provided great images and think that we can raise the article to Featured Article easily. In order to do it, everything in the main body of the article has to be properly cited. Could you help?--Armenius vambery (talk) 11:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

"Many anti-Communists, anti-semites, and anti-Trotskyists have noted Trotsky's original surname..."

This is sort of a meaningless (if true) sentence to put in Leon Trotsky#Childhood and family (1879–1895). It doesn't have anything to due with Trotsky's childhood, or with any factual dispute among historians. Everyone agrees it is his name, and that it is has a Jewish/German origin. I guess I understand what's trying to be said, it's like the people who overemphasized Barack Obama's middle name, but I don't think this is the best way to treat this in the article. By contrast, the discussion about his given name is more pertinent, as historians seem to have an actual disagreement about that.--Pharos (talk) 18:09, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, it doesn't add anything to the article other than to continue the Service/North dispute over Trotsky. Service and North both only speculate, with scant sourcing on both sides, as to what Trotsky was called in his childhood, by whom, and the origin of those pet names. Removal of this section wouldn't detract from the article, but its continued existence detracts from the flow and the merit of the article.
ComradeScientist (talk) 03:45, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I have made an attempt to put this into context, that this is a sort of side-argument by North against Trotsky's speculated Yiddish given name. That's the only part that is marginally relevant to his childhood.--Pharos (talk) 03:34, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Hi Pharos, thanks for this. I was going to write above that I do think this whole issue is relevant to Trotsky's biography, but in the end I think your changes are an improvement. -Darouet (talk) 14:28, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree the larger issue could be a significant part of this article, if there was a more expansive Legacy or Public image section in the style of Che Guevara#Legacy.--Pharos (talk) 17:53, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Léon Trotskij

Please habe a look here [[http://www.roger-viollet.fr/fr/asset/fullTextSearch/search/Trotsky/page/1#nb-result}} - this is how the subject of this article wrote his own name in latin letters. I find this to be of huge importance. (I doubt the copyright is valid, as it can't be the photographer's own. But aside of that) Boeing720 (talk) 19:52, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I see nothing on this page relevant to the spelling of Trotsky's name. But even if there were, it is hardly a matter of "huge importance". RolandR (talk) 23:49, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Trotsky in Mussolini's Italy

No mention of Trotsky's visit to Italy? https://stanforddailyarchive.com/cgi-bin/stanford?a=d&d=stanford19321205-01.2.20 --2001:8003:4163:AD00:7DF6:B9C5:35FF:F142 (talk) 04:11, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Russian?

Trotsky was born in bred in Ukraine. He clearly was not Russian. This should be amended. He should either be referee to as a Soviet or as a Ukrainian.

The lede says "Russian revolutionary". He was born in 1879 in the Russian empire and sought revolution to overthrow it. There was no "Soviet" prior to 1922. Softlavender (talk) 10:42, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Gandhi was born in the British Empire therefore he was British not Indian. See how ridiculous this argument is? Trotsky lived in the Soviet Union and was a Soviet citizen, therefore he was a Soviet.80.111.16.75 (talk) 10:47, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Born in bred, huh? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:02, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Eastern Ukraine is mostly populated with ethnic Russians, not Ukrainians .... the only question is, what was his ancestry? HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:51, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Ice-axe or Ice-pick?

Most accounts say that Trotsky was murdered with an ice-axe - which I have always taken to mean a bit of heavy mountaineering kit.

But some years ago I read that it was in fact an ice-pick - which I took to mean a modest bit of kitchen equipment, something normally used to dislodge ice-cubes in an ice-bucket.

Today though I've seen a photo of the actual thing, and discover I was wrong on both counts.

The actual implement is indeed a domestic ice-pick, but far heavier and more lethal than I had imagined.

It is in fact a somewhat smaller shorter version of a mountaineer's ice-axe, but one which looks as though its purpose was in fact to hack lumps off those big blocks of ice that folk used to get delivered to their homes and shops in the days before fridges.

One end of the head is a pick, the other end a downward-curving adze-like blade.

More than sufficient to be lethal in the wrong hands - but something far more likely to be found in a home in Mexico than an ice-axe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.240.181 (talk) 13:07, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Condensed intro, removed one section

Condensed the very lengthy and detailed introductory paragraphs, moving the relevant text to the pertinent sections. I removed the "Travels in Vilayet" section, as it contains a long digression, and incorporated one sentence about Trotsky's reporting in the following section.11 Arlington (talk) 23:49, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Sources

I have been researching some of the sources used in this article and despite looking at 8 sources, atleast 5/8 of which are used multiple times, I cannot find a reason for why these sources would be allowed. They use trotsky's autobiography for details that cannot be verified accurately and do not just concern him, they use a book whos description refers to him as heroic and claims to have "turned back the tide of Stalin’s propaganda". One is just a letter that trotsky wrote, another was written by a self admitted trotskyist, another calls him "the sword of the revolution", another is an unifinished book he was writing. Unless there is something I am missing the only explanation I am coming up with is that trotskyists made and are watching over this page for the purpose of creating their own "stalinist propaganda" but for trotsky PresidenteGonzalo (talk) 11:25, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

edit:

looking back further, a user asked to be weary of "hero worship" in this article, this was written in 2008, 12 years ago, and this is still a problem — Preceding unsigned comment added by PresidenteGonzalo (talk • contribs) 11:49, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

I propose the article to allow shortened footnotes

Many of the references are from the same authors and books. Should the article be changed to use shortened footnotes?--EsotericJoe (talk) 20:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I’ve started to include “Footnotes”. If anyone can help me, it would be greatly appreciated and will speed up the inclusion in the article. Thanks.--EsotericJoe (talk) 07:33, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:23, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Death of Trotsky

The Leon Trotsky article claims:

"Trotsky was then taken to a hospital and operated on, surviving for more than a day, but dying, at the age of 60, on 21 August 1940 from exsanguination and shock."

But the Ramón Mercader article claims:

"Trotsky was taken to a hospital in the city and operated on but died the next day as a result of severe brain injuries." — Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyTrojans (talk • contribs) 10:34, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Nothing about him coining the word 'racist' or 'racism'?

I was surprised that this wasn't mentioned on the page. It's a pretty significant part of his politics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:8000:21:64FE:675:6E54:6C3E (talk) 04:44, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Trotsky did not coin the term. The word was coined by Richard Henry Pratt in 1902, according to this reliable source. Cullen328 (talk) 04:57, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
  1. ^ Kevin Brownlow, Behind the Mask of Innocence: The Social Problem Films of the Silent Cinema, New York, Knopf, 1990, ISBN 0-394-57747-7
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