Talk:Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor

Rumors among the people

In 1698 a book by Dutch traveller Cornelis de Bruyn was published. His journey though started of in 1675, which was also the year he arrived at Vienna. While visiting he heard a rumour about the emperor. See here. The rumour can be translated as:

I was told of a certain lioness who, some time ago, gave birth to cubs. After the emperor had his midday meal, he commonly had them brought to him for his amusement. On one occasion, he kept them with him longer than usual, which enraged the lioness so fiercely that when the one who was entrusted with providing her with food and drink brought back the cubs, she furiously attacked him, tearing him apart with teeth and claws. After that incident, the ruler no longer wished to meddle with the cubs.

Comment

His unusual 'jawline' can be seen as 'subnasal prognasty' which is considered an African feature. Leopold was described by Swinburne as 'A short, hale black man.' He was probably a African European of which there were many, and from the Renaissance formed a noble elite. The confusion about the looks of the Habsburg comes from falsified portraits which show his parents, siblings and son as white's.

• This is certainly new infomation to me. If you can provide a reference for it, fine, but I've never read anything suggesting the Habsburgs had close African ancestry in the 17th and 18th century. As an example Charles II of England was often described as 'black' by contemporaries, but there's no suggestion he had close African ancestry. Lec CRP1 19:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

• Personally, I find this to be highly dubious bordering on ludicrous, especially with no source given. I have never read anywhere that the Habsburgs were tangled like that. Alessandro de Medici, yes...the Habsburgs, especially Leopold, no. John Spielman's thorough biography of Leopold, Leopold I of Austria, Thames and Hudson, 1971 makes no mention whatsoever of any such lineage. The jaw deformity certainly did not start or end with Leopold, one need only look at Carlos II of Spain's parents and grandparents. Unless there is clear evidence from valid sources that some grand conspiracy exists to "whiten" every "black" Habsburg back to Joanna and Maximilian, this should not be kept as part of the bio. Talshiarr 12:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• In the beginning of the text he is described as "short and sickly", and in the end as "short, but strong and healthy" - so - basically he is short? 193.234.249.114 07:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Margaret Theresa

She was his niece and his cousin. His niece, that's clear, because her mother Maria Anna of Spain was a sister to Leopold.

Margaret Theresa "Greta" also was the cousin to her husband, because Leopold's mother (Gretas ount) was the mother of Philip IV of Spain.

I know, that that relationship was complicated. ;) --AndreaMimi (talk) 11:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Er, you made a mistake. They were cousins because Leopold's mother was a sister of Philip IV, no? I think "niece" is the appropriate moniker, though, unless we want to go into detail. john k (talk) 16:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The relationships are quite interesting but complex. It should be noted that the closest relationship is usually the one to describe how two people are related. Charles 18:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. john k (talk) 20:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

@john k.

Both is true: Greta was the niece of Leopold. Her mother Maria Anna was the sister to Leopold.

Gretas paternal grandmother - also a Maria Anna - was the mother from Leopold.

Better ?

@charles

Thank you for you help. I think you understand, what I mean. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not true that Leopold's mother was Philip IV's mother, as you stated, although I assume this is not what you meant. Beyond that, all royals have multiple relationships to one another. Since Margaret Theresa was Leopold's niece, that means their daughter Maria Antonia was also Leopold's grand-niece. And his first cousin, once removed. Should we say "Maria Antonia was the daughter, grand-niece, and first cousin once removed of Emperor Leopold I"? john k (talk) 23:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I will add that Margaret Theresa was her own second cousin once removed. Should we mention that in her article? john k (talk) 23:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Since Margaret Theresa was Leopold's niece, that means their daughter Maria Antonia was also Leopold's grand-niece. Yes, that's true.

Philipp IV of Spain was the father and the great-uncle toe Margaret Theresa. The are related on the same grade than Leopold and Maria Antonia.

Sorry, I made a little mistake. Philipp's IV sister Maria Anna (1606-1646) was Leopolds mother. So that's clear.

Margaret Theresa married her uncle Leopold (that's ok) and her cousin too, because he was the son from her ount Maria Anna.

No second cousin/no once removed. --AndreaMimi (talk) 11:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

My point is that all of these royals are related to each other in multiple ways. We only need to list the closest one in ordinary reference, unless we're specifically talking about in-breeding. john k (talk) 13:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That's important for me, that Margaret Theresa war Leopold's niece and cousin. I think they were related in other degrades too, but that's not important.

For example you can read this information - niece and cousin together - also in the German Wikipedia. And nobodys says something against it.

I wish you a nice day. --AndreaMimi (talk) 13:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

@John Kenney

Thank you, that you change the informations about Margaret Theresa and Leopold. I'm very happy.

I'm very interessted in Kings and Queens and studying History. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Can someone clarify one point. The text said Margaret Theresa had 6 children but lists only 4. Which figure is correct? Perhaps there were 2 stillbirths? I think I read somewhere of her having had miscarriages. Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. Jjc2002 (talk) 16:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)Jjc2002

I believe the listing of six children in the text is erroneous, Spielman's biography of Leopold I lists Ferdinand Wenzel (Sept. 1667-1668), Maria Antonia (1669-1692), Johann Leopold (1670), and Maria Anna Antonia (1672). Since they were married in 1666 and Margareta died in March 1673 she could scarcely have birthed more children than those four. To get six, two of the births would have been twins in which one was stillborn and I have never seen any mention of that anywhere.Talshiarr (talk) 03:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

The War of Spanish Succession was not to remove Philip the V. He became the king as a result of the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.202.61.174 (talk) 03:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Page does not display corectly

The first part of this item does not display correctly: part of the text and accompanying illustrations are obscured. Please can this be fixed.Geoff Powers (talk) 15:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)